Negative Energy Substitution?

[Zanos]

Pretty sure such a feat doesn't exist in 1st party content, but looking for something that lets you switch typical damage spells into negative energy damage. I think I remember seeing such a feat in a 3rd party book but can't find it anymore. Anyone aware of where it might be?

[ciopo]

There was the ... desecrate? There is a feat in book of vile darkness that you choose a spell, that spells is half unholy, I think it's called desecrate spell or something like that

[Tzardok]

Unholy damage is not negative energy.

You could try Enervate Spell from Libris Mortis. Its fluff includes adding negative energy to the spell, even though the effect isn't quite what you would normally get from negative energy (the spell deals 50% more of its base damage to the living and 50% less to undead and constructs).

[Thurbane]

Isn't there a feat that turns half of the damage from a Cold spell into Negative Energy damage?

Lord of the Uttercold (Complete Arcane).

[Zanos]

Unholy damage is not negative energy.
Thank you. To be clear, this is for a necromancer. I'm not trying to deal "difficult to mitigate damage type", I'm specifically trying to throw evil fireballs that support undead minions while dealing damage.


You could try Enervate Spell from Libris Mortis. Its fluff includes adding negative energy to the spell, even though the effect isn't quite what you would normally get from negative energy (the spell deals 50% more of its base damage to the living and 50% less to undead and constructs).
Not a terrible option, but I'd prefer to heal my minions rather than damage them less. I think in most cases though, I'd rather just blow up my undead than apply a +2 metamagic feat.


Isn't there a feat that turns half of the damage from a Cold spell into Negative Energy damage?

Lord of the Uttercold (Complete Arcane).
This is the best fallback I've seen if I can't find the 3rd party feat, but I am almost positive it exists in a book somewhere.

[nedz]

Black Lore of Moil ( Complete Arcane p75) Adds negative energy to a spell

Corrupt Spell just makes the spell evil and makes half the damage unholy

Enervate Spell ( Libris Mortis p26) adds negative energy, which adds 50% damage to living but does only 50% damage to constructs, undead, and objects.

The various Fell metamagics often add negative energy, but not in any direct way.

Lord of the Uttercold (Complete Arcane p80) turns any cold spell into half cold, half negative energy.

Umbral Spell (Drow of the Underdark p52) adds the darkness descriptor

Violate Spell (Book of Vile Darkness p50) adds the evil descriptor and makes half the damage vile. I'm not sure what this means ? I think it's a 3.0 term. ?

The only way I know of doing this is to channel negative energy from Rebuke Undead to cure people via Healing Devotion — but that isn't quite what you want.

[Tzardok]

Violate Spell (Book of Vile Darkness p50) adds the evil descriptor and makes half the damage vile. I'm not sure what this means ? I think it's a 3.0 term. ?


Vile damage is a special kind of damage introduced in Book of Vile Darkness and sometimes used in later books with Vile feats in it, like Heroes of Horror. Vile damage can be both hit point damage and attribute damage and resists all kinds of healing. It can only be cured by magic cast within the area of consecrate or hallow.

[DarkOne-Rob]

Not exactly the question you are looking to answer, but I did learn recently that there is an exploit (Arcanist, Energy Shield (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/arcane-exploits/energy-shield-su)) that can give an energy shield that includes positive/negative energy. Nothing limiting it from those options, so...

[ShurikVch]

Most of interesting stuff was already mentioned, but there is some more:

Debilitating Spell (Heroes of Horror): [tainted] feat, which allow to do - in addition to "normal" damage - 2 Con or 4 Wis damage (depending on if your corruption>depravity or not; if they're =, then - by your choice); usable 2/day (or 4/day - if you have severe taint)

Hellsworn (Exemplars of Evil): [vile] feat; Brimstone Caress option gives +1 CL on [evil] spells and SLA; and, 1/encounter, allow to give +1 DC to any spell, and half of spell's damage would be unholy; your home plane change to the Nine Hells, and you can't be resurrected with anything weaker than Wish or Miracle

Excised From the Web of Life (Dragon #336): your spell can do (or not - your choice) damage equal to your CL to creature of Animal, Fey, or Plant type; it even includes spells which usually don't do any damage; if spell don't allowed a saving throw - target can make Fort save to avoid the damage; you got penalty on all Cha-based skills and checks with creatures of Animal, Fey, or Plant types, or anybody with the Wild Empathy class feature

Touch of the Blackened Soul spell (Dragon Magic) your spells get [evil] descriptor and do +50% damage against Good creatures; normally, works for spells of up to 3rd level, but Sorcerer can increase this cap by sacrificing one sorcerer spell slot of 5th to 9th level (increase is the spell's level minus 1)

Also, if you want for your spells to heal your Undead while damaging living targets - then why don't use spells of pure Negative Energy, like Negative Energy Burst (Tome and Blood)?

[Darg]

Not exactly the question you are looking to answer, but I did learn recently that there is an exploit (Arcanist, Energy Shield (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/arcane-exploits/energy-shield-su)) that can give an energy shield that includes positive/negative energy. Nothing limiting it from those options, so...

I'm not sure if paizo changed things, but positive/negative energy is not a type of energy damage. Instead it is simply a damage type:


energy damage: Damage caused by one of five types of energy (not counting positive and negative energy): acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.


damage: Damage types include weapon damage (subdivided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) and energy damage (positive, negative, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic).

one thing to note, is that energy types don't have a planes simply devoted to themselves unlike the energy planes of positive and negative.

[Kris Moonhand]

This is a Pathfinder thing (and psionics), but Negative Energy Affinity (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Negative_Energy_Affinity)?

[GeoffWatson]

If you are willing to use 3rd party, why not just make something up? eg Negative Energy Substitution: Same as Energy Substitution but Negative. Source: Zanos' Tome of Wishful Thinking.
That's as much thought and playtesting as most 3rd party books get.

[ciopo]

Whta about elven spell lore from the PHBII, page 78? the second effect, not the bonus to dispel checks. It doesn't specify that the energy substitution has to be one of the 5 elemental damages, so on a technicality you could use that to change to negative or positive damage. (I think it implied it would have one of the 5 elemental/energy damages, but it doesn't say so, so seems okay to me)

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't there a feat that turns half of the damage from a Cold spell into Negative Energy damage?

Lord of the Uttercold (Complete Arcane).

And with Energy Substitution(Cold), any elemental spell can be a cold spell.....

[Zanos]

If you are willing to use 3rd party, why not just make something up? eg Negative Energy Substitution: Same as Energy Substitution but Negative. Source: Zanos' Tome of Wishful Thinking.
That's as much thought and playtesting as most 3rd party books get.
Because my DM does require that the material be published.

Now technically he did say that if I wrote a book of mechanics I just wanted for myself and published it, he would allow it, because "that would be hilarious", but I don't feel like going that far if it already exists. :smalltongue:


Whta about elven spell lore from the PHBII, page 78? the second effect, not the bonus to dispel checks. It doesn't specify that the energy substitution has to be one of the 5 elemental damages, so on a technicality you could use that to change to negative or positive damage. (I think it implied it would have one of the 5 elemental/energy damages, but it doesn't say so, so seems okay to me)
Hmm, this should work, yeah. Unfortunately it only applies to one spell, but not bad regardless.

[Thurbane]

Elven Spell Lore is a little questionable, since the RAW definition of energy damage is limited to acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic.

[ciopo]

I agree and accept that it's probably poor editing, but for most of the feat it doesn't nominate energy, except on the tail end of it about multiple preparations. And on the table at the beginning of the chapter perhaps. But other than on that qualifier, the central paragraph doesn't nominate energy, just damage. "Choose a single spell in your spellbook when you take this feat. When preparing that spell, you can alter the type of damage it deals to a single type of your choice".

Amusingly, I would even sneakily use this to change shivering touch to a different kind of ability damage, but alas, far as I know "wisdom" isn't a type of damage.

*daydreams of a fireball doing intelligence damage* it would be hilarious

Oh god, it could be nominally any adjective, so now the fireball does stupid damage!

I'll see myself out now

[ShurikVch]

Dragon Mystic PrC (Dragon #296): 1st-level CF Draconic Spell Power:

Whenever the dragon mystic casts a spell that inflicts damage, the spell inflicts an additional +1d6 damage per level to each target on a failed save. This damage is of the same type as the dragon's damaging breath weapon. If the dragon mystic has more than one breath weapon that inflicts damage, select one when this power is gained. If the dragon mystic has no breath weapon that inflicts damage, this power has no effect. It also has no effect on spells that don't inflict damage or that don't allow a saving throw.
Pick for your draconic heritage a Shadow Dragon (or even Dragotha himself)...
To qualify for the PrC, you would need only ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spell (not even necessarily - spontaneous), Dragon type, and 5000 gp of diamonds

[Thurbane]

I agree and accept that it's probably poor editing, but for most of the feat it doesn't nominate energy, except on the tail end of it about multiple preparations. And on the table at the beginning of the chapter perhaps. But other than on that qualifier, the central paragraph doesn't nominate energy, just damage. "Choose a single spell in your spellbook when you take this feat. When preparing that spell, you can alter the type of damage it deals to a single type of your choice".

Amusingly, I would even sneakily use this to change shivering touch to a different kind of ability damage, but alas, far as I know "wisdom" isn't a type of damage.

*daydreams of a fireball doing intelligence damage* it would be hilarious

Oh god, it could be nominally any adjective, so now the fireball does stupid damage!

I'll see myself out now

Yeah, agree the feat wording is a bit of a mess:


When preparing that spell, you can alter the type of damage it deals to a single type of your choice. You must make this choice when preparing the spell (those who do not prepare spells cannot benefit from this aspect of the feat). You can prepare the spell multiple times, selecting the same or a different energy type for it with each preparation.

[Darg]

Yeah, agree the feat wording is a bit of a mess:

RAW would imply that the first prep could be literally any damage type and subsequent preps would be that damage type or an energy type.

[RSGA]

RAW would imply that the first prep could be literally any damage type and subsequent preps would be that damage type or an energy type.

Finally, a way to do city damage in every thorp, hamlet, village, as well as some terps, torps, and dorfs. Next, find a way to Summon Mall.

[Phhase]

one thing to note, is that energy types don't have a planes simply devoted to themselves unlike the energy planes of positive and negative.

I'm...pretty sure there's a Plane of Fire.

[Darg]

I'm...pretty sure there's a Plane of Fire.

It's a plane of physical fire, not fire energy itself. At least, I've never seen it descibed as an energy plane:


Energy Plane: An Inner Plane, either the Positive Energy Plane or the Negative Energy Plane.


Elemental Plane: One of the Inner Planes consisting almost entirely of one type of element: air, earth, fire, or water.

The theme isn't energy itself, but the element of fire instead.