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Spacehamster
2022-04-14, 10:20 AM
Which do you guys prefer and which ones are more reliable to go off in your experience? Usually play a martial but now playing a battle smith that will have maxed INT so my spells will be decently reliable so curious what spells to go for. :)

Saelethil
2022-04-14, 10:25 AM
I like to have some of each with a variety of saving throws. Some monsters have high saves but low AC, for others the only way to do anything is target a weak save.

Sigreid
2022-04-14, 10:26 AM
Ok, my answer is admittedly ridiculous. It depends on how lucky I'm feeling with the dice lately. I've gone through stretches where I was rolling consistently high and loved to handle things as an attack role. On the other hand, when I had a stretch where it seemed I couldn't roll above a 10 on a D20, I created a sorcerer that was 100% about forcing saving throws.

LudicSavant
2022-04-14, 10:27 AM
Which do you guys prefer and which ones are more reliable to go off in your experience?

Different ones are better in different matchups/situations, so casters often invest in both if they can.

JackPhoenix
2022-04-14, 10:28 AM
Saves, because the everyone in my game seems to have horrible luck with their dice. Except one player who consistently rolls high.

da newt
2022-04-14, 10:30 AM
Depends on the target and also a save for 1/2 is a nice bonus vs a hit or miss completely. There is also something to be said for conditions that give ADV/DISADV on attacks or saves that often differ between attacks and saves.

A well kitted out caster has options and tries to use the best tool for the job.

ender241
2022-04-14, 10:45 AM
The short answer is it depends. But I think there are more ways to make attacks reliable than saves. But saves are more common.

The long answer is that it depends on a lot of factors, like:
- What type of save is it? Most monsters tend to have low Int saves, so spells that target Int are going to be more likely to land on average. The opposite is true for Con. There are resources out there (not handy to me at the moment) that lay out the exact spread to get an idea of which saves trend to be best/worst.
- What type of monster are you facing? You're probably not going to know the exact stats, but you can usually get a pretty good idea from looks alone. A big, hulking enemy is likely going to have high Str/Con and lower mental stats. A robed figure darting around the battlefield will probably have high Dex. Someone with a staff or other arcane focus will surely have at least one high mental stat. Etc.
- How high is the enemy's AC? You probably won't know the exact number but after a round or so you may have a pretty good idea. Obviously, the higher the AC the harder it is to land an attack roll and the better a save spell becomes by comparison.
- Do you have a way to get advantage on the attack? Do you have disadvantage on the attack? For instance, using a spell with a save is likely going to be better than a ranged spell attack when you have enemies in your face. But when you're standing a bit away and your Steel Defender just used the help action to give advantage on the next attack roll? Roll away.
- Do you have a way to affect the target's save? For instance, a Silvery Barbs in your pocket (or an ally's) may make the save or suck spell more appealing. Or maybe they're Baned. Etc. These are typically harder to come by than advantage on attack rolls.

So basically, it depends 🙂. So get some of both.

strangebloke
2022-04-14, 10:56 AM
Attack rolls are very weird because generally enemy AC doesn't scale with PC attack levels. You'll fight an animated armor at level 1 and deal with 18 AC which is pretty hard to hit with a +5 modifier, then you'll fight an adult red dragon at 14th level that has... 19 AC, while your modifier is +11. So attack roll spells become a lot better overall as you level, especially if you can get some kind of accuracy bonus via your class features or an ally. There are very few means given to enemies to outright negate attack rolls.

Saving throws, for contrast, are feast or famine at every level. The adult red dragon mentioned earlier has a +13 to some saves, but a +3 to others. That's a 50% swing! So if you can target INT saves, you'll do great, but if you're targeting CON or CHA or STR you'll do not so good. But on the other hand legendary saves are a layer of defense you have to deal with at high levels, and wasting 5+ saving throw spells before you get something to stick kind of sucks. But the save for half is a big deal because it basically means your 'accuracy' is 50%, so against something with ludicrously high saves and AC, save for half actually deals pretty good damage.

In summary?

Attack rolls are better against high level targets, while saving throws are better against low-level targets (which you deal with throughout the whole game) unless its a save-for-half spell and the 'half' effect makes the spell 'good enough' OR you can target the bad saves of a high level enemy who doesn't have legendary saves.

stoutstien
2022-04-14, 11:15 AM
Which do you guys prefer and which ones are more reliable to go off in your experience? Usually play a martial but now playing a battle smith that will have maxed INT so my spells will be decently reliable so curious what spells to go for. :)

For battlesmith artificer the majority of your spells are AoE save CC or debuffs so you have to take in account the number of targets you can effect into consideration. Some even have the benefit of additional riders so even if they roll well you have something going for you. Dropping a well placed web for example will usually be a good move. Worse case they all save but ts still DT and you can force a repeat save or just burn them all.

If all it does is damage then it's probably a waste for you. Special exception for SSI being used by a "free" action but even then it's hard to beat the effects of a well placed grease or web.

MoiMagnus
2022-04-14, 12:53 PM
Which do you guys prefer and which ones are more reliable to go off in your experience? Usually play a martial but now playing a battle smith that will have maxed INT so my spells will be decently reliable so curious what spells to go for. :)

Once you start reaching higher level, it become very important to know if your team can reasonably pierce through the Legendary Resistances of bad guys. If you're the only one to force saving throws on the enemies, just don't do it, it's wasting 3 actions and the associated resources.

Also, not all saves are created equal, and the strength of each save can vary a lot from campaign to campaign (are you fighting humans? giant monsters? etc).

Chronos
2022-04-14, 03:35 PM
Even without Legendary Saves, a lot of high-level monsters have Magic Resistance. So that's another argument for attack rolls.

That said, the biggest thing that makes spellcasters overpowered is variety. If you have a dozen different tricks to pick from, and they're all good in different situations, then you can always pick the one that's best for the situation, and thus always be powerful. This is compared to martials, with few tricks, who therefore can't always optimize for the situation.

Way back when 5th edition first came out, as an answer to complaints about "Schrödinger's Wizard", I came up with a preparation list for a hypothetical 8th-level wizard. It really wasn't hard to come up with something that could target any of all seven possible defenses (six saves plus AC), with a variety of damage types to cover any immunities or vulnerabilities, and a wide variety of different effects (damage, incapacitation, battlefield control, buff, etc.).


Cantrips (5):
Minor Illusion
Ray of Frost
Acid Splash
Friends
Prestidigitation

Spellbook (8/4/4/4):
1: Comprehend Languages
1: Detect Magic
1: Disguise Self
1: Find Familiar
1: Mage Armor
1: Tenser's Floating Disk
1: Thunderwave
1: Unseen Servant
2: Gust of Wind
2: Levitate
2: Phantasmal Force
2: Scorching Ray
3: Fireball
3: Haste
3: Hypnotic Pattern
3: Leomund's Tiny Hut
4: Banishment
4: Fabricate
4: Hallucinatory Terrain
4: Polymorph

Prepared (13):
1: Disguise Self
1: Mage Armor
1: Thunderwave
2: Gust of Wind
2: Levitate
2: Phantasmal Force
2: Scorching Ray
3: Fireball
3: Haste
3: Hypnotic Pattern
4: Banishment
4: Fabricate
4: Polymorph

Ganryu
2022-04-14, 04:35 PM
It depends. Pure damage, I give it to attack roll spells, you WILL hit more often with them, because as strangebloke commented on AC not scaling well with enemies.

However, saves have some much nastier effects. Doing 50 damage with Eldritch Blast is nice... but a banished enemy is gone until the end of the encounter. I ruined an entire encounter as a warlock, because it was a spell caster and 2 thug bodyguards with control abilities meant to delay the party.

I immediately banished them, and started running for my life, dimension doored the next turn. Rest of the party wailed on the spellcaster until they went down, and because I was gone, they couldn't break my concentration. The two thugs were HP sponges, but didn't have good saves. In that situation, the save was muuuuuch better.

But whenever I went against a regular boss, I just spammed Eldritch blast, made a few summons, and stayed the hell away, because my spell slots were limited, and I wasn't going to just lose them to legendary resistances.

Leon
2022-04-14, 07:41 PM
A selection to cover a range of outcomes that might be faced and a range of saves targeted where possible

Bardon
2022-04-14, 08:12 PM
Like most of the responders, I'd say take a mix to cover for different situations.

And as always, Rule #1: If you can take Magic Missile, you take Magic Missile. Automatic hit and no saving throw is just *too* useful, even if you only take it for breaking Concentration.

animorte
2022-04-14, 09:08 PM
Both absolutely. Just choosing them differently based on varying opponents and situations.

The simplest things to take into account that can alter either for in-the-moment decision making:
- Advantage for you
- Disadvantage for targets
(edit: if you - or your party - have reliable ways to consistently create either of those two for something specific, do that.)

But I'll tell you something better. There's a reason low-level control spells are valued so much. Some don't require either to be effective.

Amnestic
2022-04-15, 03:40 AM
Attack roll spells are very much clustered around the early levels.

Above 3rd level, there's only:
Faithful Hound, Storm Sphere (partially), Contagion (partially), Dispel Evil and Good (partially), Steel Wind Strike, Wall of Light, Crown of Stars, Mordekainen's Sword, and Black Blade of Disaster.

Which, when stacked against the number of save-spells, seems distinctly weighted on the save side. Not really surprising, probably deliberate.

Chaos Jackal
2022-04-15, 06:47 AM
Above 3rd level, there's only:
Faithful Hound, Storm Sphere (partially), Contagion (partially), Dispel Evil and Good (partially), Steel Wind Strike, Wall of Light, Crown of Stars, Mordekainen's Sword, and Black Blade of Disaster.

You missed Bigby's hand and plane shift, not that it's a great increase or anything. And there's not a big selection at lower levels either.

Notably, a bunch of those spells aren't much good either. Mordenkainen's sword is infamously terrible, blade of disaster is very underwhelming, wall of light is mediocre (unless you wanna use it as a wall, in which case it just sucks), contagion might as well have no effect other than poison... high level attack roll spells are neither common nor worth it the majority of the time. Crown of stars is a remarkable case of the opposite.

To be fair, many of the lower level ones aren't rocking either. Like 25-30% of attack roll spells are cantrips, and the overall selection, especially at lower levels, is primarily damage-focused. The intention seems to have been for casters' big guns to have saves, with attack rolls reserved for off-turns or when something big isn't needed (hence the emphasis on cantrips). There's a few more here and there, but it appears that spell attacks largely take a back seat.

That being said, it's better to hit and deal just damage than to throw a debilitating save-or-suck that will never stick, so even though the game pushes spellcasters towards saves that doesn't mean having and properly utilizing spell attacks should be overlooked.

Edit: relevant to the OP, and with the obvious gravitation of spell attacks towards damage, a Battle Smith can actually forgo them for the most part. You wanna deal damage using your Int to hit, just fire that heavy crossbow twice. Outside of Bigby's hand you only get cantrips with attack rolls anyway, and while something like thorn whip or ray of frost could have some utility, you also get very limited cantrips. A Battle Smith just isn't that big on spell attacks, not when they can just do a normal attack routine with their primary stat.

Chronos
2022-04-15, 07:08 AM
On the other hand, Bigby's Hand is great. And Wall of Light is also quite good, as long as you don't somehow get the misconception that it's a wall.

There's also yet another category that shows up at high level, spells which target a skill check instead of a save or AC. Bigby's Hand can do that, too, as does Levitate. Which basically works out similar to a save, except that legendary resistance and magic resistance never apply, and proficiency is even less common.

ImproperJustice
2022-04-15, 07:49 AM
Use a variety to hit weaknesses:

High AC? Use a save or suck based on their lowest stat.

Low AC? Blaze away with bolts and rays?

Flimsy Wizard or nimble Rogue? Use Strength save spells like Tidal Wave or Max’s Grasp, etc…


Also: Wall of Light is amazing.
Use as a disco floor of death, or as a ceiling / chest high wall of doom for large or taller foes. They can’t see you, but you can target feet.
Also works pretty good as cover vs. flying foes.

Plus lasers.

RogueJK
2022-04-15, 09:45 AM
Lots of good general spellcasting advice so far, so I'll focus on the Battle Smith Artificer specifically, since that's what the OP is specifically asking about.

Your question is kinda moot for a Battle Smith Artificer... Beyond cantrips, the Battle Smith gets NO attack roll spells, other than a couple of spells that trigger on a successful weapon attack like Branding/Banishing Smite. They do have access to a few attack roll cantrips, but Battle Smiths already have INT-based weapon attacks, which can be used on ranged weapons along with Extra Attack. So there's not much need to take a long range attack roll cantrip like Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost, unless you just want the ability to make ranged attacks without drawing a ranged weapon, or you want the rider effect. The shorter-ranged attack roll cantrip Thorn Whip can be quite useful, but that's for the forced movement pulling rider effect, not the damage itself.

Therefore, your options for a Battle Smith are save spells or... save spells.

It's still worthwhile to take one non-CON-save damage cantrip, such as Create Bonfire or Acid Splash, for occasional use against enemies with high ACs but low DEX saves. (Both of these cantrips also have the additional benefit of being able to be used against multiple adjacent enemies.)

And you'll want to just make sure that you don't invest in spells that all target the same save. For example, if you focus on spells that affect DEX, then are dealing with high-DEX enemies, you won't be very effective. Ideally, a spellcaster will specifically want some spells that target traditionally lower enemy saves, like INT or CHA, but the Artificer doesn't get any of those... The only leveled spells they get that target anything but STR/DEX/CON is Sanctuary (WIS). So just take a variety.

MarkVIIIMarc
2022-04-15, 09:49 AM
Attack roll spells are very much clustered around the early levels.

Above 3rd level, there's only:
Faithful Hound, Storm Sphere (partially), Contagion (partially), Dispel Evil and Good (partially), Steel Wind Strike, Wall of Light, Crown of Stars, Mordekainen's Sword, and Black Blade of Disaster.

Which, when stacked against the number of save-spells, seems distinctly weighted on the save side. Not really surprising, probably deliberate.

I'd like to suggest Animate Objects be added to the list. I had a Bard who made the DM roll more in combat than my character did, until Animate Objects became available.

RogueJK
2022-04-15, 09:52 AM
I'd like to suggest Animate Objects be added to the list.

Spells like Animate Objects or Summon/Conjure X aren't considered "attack roll spells", because the spell itself doesn't require an attack roll to have an effect. You're just summoning/animating minions, which can make additional attacks themselves.

Just like Haste, Swift Quiver, or Tenser's Transformation aren't "attack roll spells", even though they allow you to make additional attacks in a turn.

Chronos
2022-04-16, 07:14 AM
Animate Objects is an attack roll spell in exactly the same way that Bigby's Hand is. Both work best against an enemy with low AC, and neither requires a save.

Lunali
2022-04-16, 08:26 AM
One important factor to consider that I haven't seen mentioned. Ranged attack roll spells are at disadvantage in melee, save spells don't have that problem.

Kylar0990
2022-04-16, 02:32 PM
Which do you guys prefer and which ones are more reliable to go off in your experience? Usually play a martial but now playing a battle smith that will have maxed INT so my spells will be decently reliable so curious what spells to go for. :)

I tend to prefer attack rolls over saving throws. Maybe it's different for you, but from what I've seen no matter what the math says if you go with a saving throw it has a 50/50 chance of failure.

SharkForce
2022-04-16, 02:58 PM
I tend to prefer attack rolls over saving throws. Maybe it's different for you, but from what I've seen no matter what the math says if you go with a saving throw it has a 50/50 chance of failure.

if you can target an enemy's weak save (which is not always easy; you may not have the right spell to do it, and even if you do it isn't like every enemy walks around carrying around a sign that says what their save modifiers are) you should be able to get much, *much* better than 50/50. as has already been pointed out, even at the highest CR it isn't too uncommon for enemies to have at least one save with a +3 or lower (and in a few high-CR cases, you can even see saving throws with no bonus at all).

in certain extreme cases, you can even get 100% success rate (though I must repeat for emphasis, this is not going to be the *standard* scenario by any means... I'm talking "high level and with magic items that boost your save DC" generally speaking, which means many players will never reach that point... generally speaking, you need a DC higher than 20 to have a shot at this).

in any event, as has already been noted I'm not entirely certain that there really is a choice to be made here for the most part. unless we're talking about cantrips, there are very few attack roll spells in the first place. for the most part this is not a question of "what would you like" so much as it is "what do you even have available as an option".

particularly when it comes to a certain type of spell... there is nothing even remotely similar to hypnotic pattern or banishment that uses an attack roll, for example. you can somewhat choose when it comes to damage (I wouldn't describe summoning as "attack roll spells" per se, but they do provide a means to deal damage with attack rolls I suppose). but if it's anything other than damage that you're looking for, you probably have to choose saving throws. the best you can do at that point is look for what saving throws you'd like to be able to target.

strangebloke
2022-04-16, 03:13 PM
One important factor to consider that I haven't seen mentioned. Ranged attack roll spells are at disadvantage in melee, save spells don't have that problem.

And cover!

Unless its a melee spell attack :P

But overall, interaction with abilities that grant advantage/disadvantage to attacks is overall a positive. As an example from my wednesday session, I cast faerie fire with my druid and my wife's tiefling sorcerer was able to use this to set up a hyper-accurate chaos bolt. In that instance, where chaos bolt had something like a 95% accuracy, it was very efficient compared to saving throw-based options.


I tend to prefer attack rolls over saving throws. Maybe it's different for you, but from what I've seen no matter what the math says if you go with a saving throw it has a 50/50 chance of failure.

well, if there's save effect for half, 50% of max is the lowest possible expected outcome. But yes, generally attack rolls are more reliable at high levels.

Tanarii
2022-04-16, 05:54 PM
In theory, an attack roll spell is like having +3 to hit compared to saves. That's because save DC = 8+Prof+ability score vs a+0 mod is like having prof+ability score vs AC 13+Dex mod, instead of AC 10+Dex mod.

But doesn't take into account armor/natural armor. Nor prof bonus to some saving throws, in the other direction.

But really, the vast majority of non-cantrip spells are saves, not attacks. So it's mostly irrelevant, as a spell caster most of your offensive spells will be save spells.

strangebloke
2022-04-16, 06:50 PM
In theory, an attack roll spell is like having +3 to hit compared to saves. That's because save DC = 8+Prof+ability score vs a+0 mod is like having prof+ability score vs AC 13+Dex mod, instead of AC 10+Dex mod.

But doesn't take into account armor/natural armor. Nor prof bonus to some saving throws, in the other direction.

But really, the vast majority of non-cantrip spells are saves, not attacks. So it's mostly irrelevant, as a spell caster most of your offensive spells will be save spells.

the "+3" is just really not how I like to think about it, for the reasons you outlined yourself. It's better to just look at how monsters are generally statted and realize that, overall, bigger monsters have saving throws that scale better than their AC does, relative to PC attack rolls, and this is before things like legendary saves are considered. You might be able to get away with hitting a weak save with banishment or something similar, but its only really practical against some targets, and in other cases its risky.

I would also argue that spell attacks are more common than people indicate. At least among spells that deal damage, a large fraction of them are based on attack rolls. The summon X spells use them, as do steel wind strike and a few others.

heavyfuel
2022-04-16, 10:27 PM
I'm honestly not super familiar with the Artificer spell list, but generally I prefer to have spells that target different saves. You're almost never going to find an enemy with high Con, Wis, Dex and Int saves.

Cantrips aside, attack roll spells are generally pretty bad. Bigsby's Hand might be the only notable exception, but it's going to be avsolute garbage by the time you reach 17th level (if that ever happens)

ender241
2022-04-17, 09:19 AM
I'm honestly not super familiar with the Artificer spell list, but generally I prefer to have spells that target different saves. You're almost never going to find an enemy with high Con, Wis, Dex and Int saves.

Cantrips aside, attack roll spells are generally pretty bad. Bigsby's Hand might be the only notable exception, but it's going to be avsolute garbage by the time you reach 17th level (if that ever happens)

I hardly think a 4d8 damage bonus action attack for a half caster is garbage. Not to mention it has other useful applications like pushing/grappling. Really the only downside for the Battlesmith is that they can't command their Steel Defender and use the hand in the same turn.

heavyfuel
2022-04-17, 12:48 PM
I hardly think a 4d8 damage bonus action attack for a half caster is garbage. Not to mention it has other useful applications like pushing/grappling. Really the only downside for the Battlesmith is that they can't command their Steel Defender and use the hand in the same turn.

Say the party is fighting a CR 17 Adult Red Dragon. Let's say the combat lasts 3 rounds and that you cast BH on round 1 and don't lose Concentration.

You have +11 to hit vc AC 19, that's an average of 15 DPR. So, over 3 rounds, you deal 45 damage.

That's your highest level spell, your Concentration, an Action, 3 Bonus Actions. For 45 damage. At level 17.

The Grasping Hand option is still decent, but the option that uses attack rolls, ie, the point of this thread, is a pathetic option.

Amnestic
2022-04-17, 02:22 PM
Say the party is fighting a CR 17 Adult Red Dragon. Let's say the combat lasts 3 rounds and that you cast BH on round 1 and don't lose Concentration.

You have +11 to hit vc AC 19, that's an average of 15 DPR. So, over 3 rounds, you deal 45 damage.

That's your highest level spell, your Concentration, an Action, 3 Bonus Actions. For 45 damage. At level 17.

The Grasping Hand option is still decent, but the option that uses attack rolls, ie, the point of this thread, is a pathetic option.

Not that it really changes much, but it's two bonus actions - you can't use your BA on turn 1 for it, the attack is part of the casting action.

45 damage on an adult red dragon is ~20% of its max health, just a bit below. In a party of five, if you contributed nothing else you'll just about have done your "fair share" of damage, but I expect you would do something with your other two actions so...seems like it did its job to me.

For an armourer who doesn't need to be spamming their bonus action, I'd say it's pretty solid. Less so for artillerists and battlesmiths due to action economy requirements.

Witty Username
2022-04-17, 02:33 PM
I tend to dislike attack roll spells, but that is mostly because I don't much care for single target damage spells, I like AOE debuf alot which tend to use saves.

heavyfuel
2022-04-17, 03:25 PM
Not that it really changes much, but it's two bonus actions - you can't use your BA on turn 1 for it, the attack is part of the casting action.

45 damage on an adult red dragon is ~20% of its max health, just a bit below. In a party of five, if you contributed nothing else you'll just about have done your "fair share" of damage, but I expect you would do something with your other two actions so...seems like it did its job to me.

For an armourer who doesn't need to be spamming their bonus action, I'd say it's pretty solid. Less so for artillerists and battlesmiths due to action economy requirements.

I expect that spending your highest level slot and Concentration on pure damage should do more than "your fair share" if "your fair share" is 1/5 of the goal.

For instance, imagine a level 1 PC instead of a level 17th one. And they spend a slot and concentration on a hypothetical "Bigbsy Minor Hand" spell, dealing 2 point of damage per round to a Bugbear. That's their "fair share" of damage, but I think everyone would agree that it would be a horrid use of a slot.

JNAProductions
2022-04-17, 03:39 PM
I expect that spending your highest level slot and Concentration on pure damage should do more than "your fair share" if "your fair share" is 1/5 of the goal.

For instance, imagine a level 1 PC instead of a level 17th one. And they spend a slot and concentration on a hypothetical "Bigbsy Minor Hand" spell, dealing 2 point of damage per round to a Bugbear. That's their "fair share" of damage, but I think everyone would agree that it would be a horrid use of a slot.

Bugbear is not the same as a dragon.

And you're not doing 45 damage-you're doing 45 damage, plus any damage from cantrips/non-Concentration spells you cast while still maintaining the Hand.

Amnestic
2022-04-17, 03:46 PM
I expect that spending your highest level slot and Concentration on pure damage should do more than "your fair share" if "your fair share" is 1/5 of the goal.


I didn't say it was the greatest thing ever, I was objecting to calling it "garbage". It's not, it's fine. It deals comparable damage to a number of other 5th level spells - better than some, worse than others, and it has additional flexibility depending on what you need to use it for that turn.

As far as damage output goes it's okay and serves as a decent supplement to an Armourer/Alchemist's output if that's what they want to spend their concentration on.

heavyfuel
2022-04-17, 04:20 PM
Bugbear is not the same as a dragon.

And you're not doing 45 damage-you're doing 45 damage, plus any damage from cantrips/non-Concentration spells you cast while still maintaining the Hand.

They're both "CR = Party level", so... I'd say the Bugbear is probably more dangerous, as they can straight up kill someone with a lucky crit, unlike the Dragon.

In both cases I was only talking about the spell damage. In the Bugbear example, you could be dealing 2 damage + cantrip damage per round, but the 2 damage would still be a terrible waste of a slot.


I didn't say it was the greatest thing ever, I was objecting to calling it "garbage". It's not, it's fine. It deals comparable damage to a number of other 5th level spells - better than some, worse than others, and it has additional flexibility depending on what you need to use it for that turn.

As far as damage output goes it's okay and serves as a decent supplement to an Armourer/Alchemist's output if that's what they want to spend their concentration on.

I agree that it's a decent (even good) 5th level spell, but 5th level damage spells just aren't good when you're casting them against CR 17 enemies

JNAProductions
2022-04-17, 04:22 PM
They're both "CR = Party level", so... I'd say the Bugbear is probably more dangerous, as they can straight up kill someone with a lucky crit, unlike the Dragon.

In both cases I was only talking about the spell damage. In the Bugbear example, you could be dealing 2 damage + cantrip damage per round, but the 2 damage would still be a terrible waste of a slot.

Yes, but the game isn't the exact same thing at level 2 and level 20.

At level 2, you can realistically one-shot many foes, and should try to do so.
At level 20, you can't be one-shotting anything with CR around your level (barring something like a Nuclear Wizard) so damage over time is more valuable.

stoutstien
2022-04-17, 04:27 PM
Since we are talking about a battle Smith the biggest damage spell they have is either banishing smite or summon construct (which is interesting thanks to having a built in healing with repair via SD) if we don't want to interrupt the built in action options too much.

Kane0
2022-04-17, 04:44 PM
I prefer attack roll spells because then i can engage in the same tactics that the martials use to get advantage on their attacks, unfortunately attack roll spells are rare in general and spells that allow multiple attacks even rarer.
So save spells end up being more reliable on average because they tend to target more creatures and you can choose the right save type for the job between multiple save spells

Also, attack roll spells can crit!

ender241
2022-04-17, 09:40 PM
They're both "CR = Party level", so... I'd say the Bugbear is probably more dangerous, as they can straight up kill someone with a lucky crit, unlike the Dragon.

In both cases I was only talking about the spell damage. In the Bugbear example, you could be dealing 2 damage + cantrip damage per round, but the 2 damage would still be a terrible waste of a slot.



I agree that it's a decent (even good) 5th level spell, but 5th level damage spells just aren't good when you're casting them against CR 17 enemies

I'm not sure why we would ignore the other aspects of the spell. Yes, the OP was asking about attack vs save, but obviously it was for the purpose of spell selection:


Usually play a martial but now playing a battle smith that will have maxed INT so my spells will be decently reliable so curious what spells to go for. :)

So why not look at the spell holistically? If OP picks the spell, he gets to use the whole thing, not just the attack roll part. I wouldn't even really consider it a "damage" spell. And actually, I would argue that it could really shine against your adult red dragon. It can:

- Grapple it, and bring it to the ground and/or hold it in a hazard or just in range for the party to attack it
- Push it into/through a hazard
- Soak up some damage
- Deal some damage

Looking more closely at the Artificer spell list, I would actually go as far as to say that it's one of the better higher level combat spells for the class.

Really the only major downside in the context of this conversation is the competition with the Steel Defender for BA usage. However, I still think it could prove useful in some situations even for a Battlesmith.

Let's actually look at the adult red dragon encounter again. What exactly is the Steel Defender going to do at the beginning of the fight when the dragon is probably up in the air, well out of reach? Or when it fails the DC 19 Wisdom save (+0 Wisdom mod) for the dragon's frightful presence? The Dodge action might be the only useful thing for the Steel Defender to do for most of this fight anyway, freeing up the Battlesmith's BA to do something more useful. Like... control Bigby's Hand? The hand is immune to fear effects btw (it's not a creature) and has 60 ft movement, to be able to intercept the dragon and then bring it to the ground and/or hold it still. Then the rest of the party can chip away at it.

It's kind of funny actually that you picked this encounter as an example to show how Bigby's Hand is "garbage" when it seems like the kind of encounter it was designed for. And yes, I know you were originally just talking about the damage part of it (though that really wasn't clear from your first post). But any spell is going to be lackluster if you ignore 3/4 of what it can do. And I still don't even think the damage is as bad as you say it is. For comparison, the Steel Defender's DPR against the adult red dragon is only ~7. That is if it even gets close enough to hit it.

heavyfuel
2022-04-17, 11:24 PM
I'm not sure why we would ignore the other aspects of the spell.

I didn't :smallconfused:

I explicitly said that the grasping hand version is a decent use of the spell even at 17th level, but this doesn't invalidate my first argument, which is "spells targeting different saves is the better route"

ender241
2022-04-18, 06:14 AM
I didn't :smallconfused:

I explicitly said that the grasping hand version is a decent use of the spell even at 17th level, but this doesn't invalidate my first argument, which is "spells targeting different saves is the better route"

I'm confused by this comment then. Specifically the bolded part.


Cantrips aside, attack roll spells are generally pretty bad. Bigsby's Hand might be the only notable exception, but it's going to be avsolute garbage by the time you reach 17th level (if that ever happens)

What was this saying?

heavyfuel
2022-04-18, 09:59 AM
I'm confused by this comment then. Specifically the bolded part.



What was this saying?

What I reffered to as "my first argument" is the thing you didn't quote:


generally I prefer to have spells that target different saves. You're almost never going to find an enemy with high Con, Wis, Dex and Int saves.

As for the spell being "avsolute garbage" (sic), I stand by it. The attack roll part of the spell - what OP asked about - is avsolute garbage at 17th level. Dealing 20% of an easy monster's HP over the course of 3 rounds is a terrible use of one's Concentration.

The grasping hand part of the spell I ignored at first because it wasn't hat OP was asking about.

ender241
2022-04-18, 11:48 AM
I'm not sure why we would ignore the other aspects of the spell.


I didn't :smallconfused:



The grasping hand part of the spell I ignored at first because it wasn't hat OP was asking about.

Whether it was the first thing you said or the last thing you said, you ignored it. That doesn't make sense to me even if the initial question was save vs attack roll because you're talking about a specific spell and everything that comes with it. And the end goal is to help OP pick spells. Ignoring 3/4 of the spell and calling it garbage as a result doesn't help OP at all.

Imagine walking into a store and having this exchange with the salesperson:

You: "I'm looking for a warm winter coat. Do you think nylon or wool would be better?"

Salesman: "I like wool. That one over there is nylon and it's not bad, but at the price we have it and the temperatures in this area it's terrible." (They're a terrible salesman ok, lol)

Then you look at it more closely and see that the inside is lined with fleece and you put it on to find that it's actually quite warm.

Salesman: "oh yeah, the fleece part makes it pretty warm, but you were asking specifically about nylon vs wool so that's all I was talking about."

You would be baffled at this and justifiably annoyed.


What I reffered to as "my first argument" is the thing you didn't quote:

I didn't quote it because I agreed with that part of what you said. It's absolutely a good idea to have spells that target a range of saves.



As for the spell being "avsolute garbage" (sic), I stand by it. The attack roll part of the spell - what OP asked about - is avsolute garbage at 17th level. Dealing 20% of an easy monster's HP over the course of 3 rounds is a terrible use of one's Concentration.

You're not casting it for the damage. You're casting it for the total package of what it can do, which I already described. One of those things is respectable BA damage. Not amazing, but certainly not garbage. Because you aren't casting it solely for that. During the duration of the spell there might arise the situation where a little bit of damage is just what you need and better than the other options. Then it's a straight upgrade from the Steel Defender's rend attack and certainly better than nothing for those subclasses that don't have much to do with their BA. That's part of why it's a great spell - you don't have to cast 4 different spells to do all the different things it can do.

heavyfuel
2022-04-18, 12:29 PM
OP asked about saves vs attack roll spells. I said "spells that use attack roll aren't good", then you say "well, if you don't use the attack roll option of this spell, then it's good". I'm failing to see what your argument is, since we seem to agree that the attack roll option of BH is bad.

tokek
2022-04-18, 02:37 PM
Until Tasha's came out there were so few attack roll spells that the matter never really came up.

With the Tasha's summons using the spell attack bonus for their attacks I think its a more interesting discussion. The range of spells is still very limited but they will quite reliably do something - which cannot be said of save spells especially when you get up to levels where legendary resistances are commonplace.

AC does not really scale with level. Not only that but boosts to spell attack bonus are easier to come by on magic items and therefore easier to stack. So the question really is can we find summon spells that are worth the spell slot and the concentration. Fortunately they do largely scale with spell slot by the simple mechanism of getting extra attacks so I've never felt too let down by them even when casting at higher levels.

SharkForce
2022-04-18, 03:01 PM
Until Tasha's came out there were so few attack roll spells that the matter never really came up.

With the Tasha's summons using the spell attack bonus for their attacks I think its a more interesting discussion. The range of spells is still very limited but they will quite reliably do something - which cannot be said of save spells especially when you get up to levels where legendary resistances are commonplace.

AC does not really scale with level. Not only that but boosts to spell attack bonus are easier to come by on magic items and therefore easier to stack. So the question really is can we find summon spells that are worth the spell slot and the concentration. Fortunately they do largely scale with spell slot by the simple mechanism of getting extra attacks so I've never felt too let down by them even when casting at higher levels.

AC may not (strictly speaking) scale with level, but in general higher CR does tend to mean higher AC. same with saves, except that it is quite common for at least one of the six saving throws to be absolutely trash.

with that said, once you start to get into legendary saves, you should probably be looking for spells that don't interact with legendary saves... but I still can't really recommend attack roll spells at that point. I suppose half-casters don't have quite as many good options (even if you get something like wall of stone or wall of force, you can't cast it until you're pretty high level), but still... trading spell slots for single-target damage is generally a poor trade-off in this system.

ender241
2022-04-18, 03:17 PM
OP asked about saves vs attack roll spells.

Within the context of spell selection.


I said "spells that use attack roll aren't good", then you say "well, if you don't use the attack roll option of this spell, then it's good".

I never said that.


I'm failing to see what your argument is, since we seem to agree that the attack roll option of BH is bad.

I don't agree.

My argument is two-fold:

1) Evaluating a spell based on only a fraction of what it can do is rarely helpful, especially in the context of spell selection. See the coat salesman metaphor.

2) Bigby's Hand is a good spell largely because of its versatility. Part of that is the ability to do some damage. If that was all the spell did, then this would be a different conversation. It would be underwhelming for its level as well if it could only grapple, or only push, or only block. The grapple is probably the strongest option as you pointed out but there are cases that the other options, including the damage one, are as good or better imo. The fact that you can pick to do whatever option is most useful on a turn-by-turn basis is what makes it strong.

heavyfuel
2022-04-18, 03:52 PM
Within the context of spell selection.

And within that context I replied that attack roll spells are usually bad

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-18, 04:02 PM
I'm honestly not super familiar with the Artificer spell list, but generally I prefer to have spells that target different saves. You're almost never going to find an enemy with high Con, Wis, Dex and Int saves.

Cantrips aside, attack roll spells are generally pretty bad. Bigsby's Hand might be the only notable exception, but it's going to be avsolute garbage by the time you reach 17th level (if that ever happens)

The big question is: How much does the character know about the saving throws of a particular foe? The answer is going to vary, but it's probably a lot less than how much an (experienced) player knows. Other than an educated guess that monster X is a big brute (Con and Str), quick (Dex), or robed/ casting spells (mental saves) they probably haven't a clue unless they've personally fought the creature before. Given that, I think there's a tendency to over-value save based spells, particularly regarding having the one that targets the correct save available.

heavyfuel
2022-04-18, 04:39 PM
The big question is: How much does the character know about the saving throws of a particular foe? The answer is going to vary, but it's probably a lot less than how much an (experienced) player knows. Other than an educated guess that monster X is a big brute (Con and Str), quick (Dex), or robed/ casting spells (mental saves) they probably haven't a clue unless they've personally fought the creature before. Given that, I think there's a tendency to over-value save based spells, particularly regarding having the one that targets the correct save available.

True, but educated guesses are still fine, especially at lower levels. You might guess wrong that the enemies had didn't have Wis save prof, but that a miss by like 4 points at best. It's not like something like Hypnotic Pattern (I know it's not on the Artificer list) becomes a bad spell because enemies are 25% more likely to pass.

Chronos
2022-04-19, 05:48 PM
And those educated guesses are usually pretty good, especially if you have all six saves to choose from. If I'm fighting a catlike monster, for instance, I might not know right away if it relies more on Dex or Str... but I can deal with that by choosing not to target either, because I know that if it's not casting spells, its mental saves probably aren't very good.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-20, 02:33 PM
And those educated guesses are usually pretty good, especially if you have all six saves to choose from. If I'm fighting a catlike monster, for instance, I might not know right away if it relies more on Dex or Str... but I can deal with that by choosing not to target either, because I know that if it's not casting spells, its mental saves probably aren't very good.

I wonder how much truth there is in that. The first monster I looked up was Bone Devil. It's top scores are Con and Str. Chr and Dex are middling at 16s. Yet it's best 3 saves are Chr, Int, and Wis as it has proficiency in those... and it's not a caster.

Obviously that's a sample size of 1 higher CR monster; it would be interesting to see how closely trends could actually be predicted.

MoiMagnus
2022-04-20, 02:59 PM
I wonder how much truth there is in that. The first monster I looked up was Bone Devil. It's top scores are Con and Str. Chr and Dex are middling at 16s. Yet it's best 3 saves are Chr, Int, and Wis as it has proficiency in those... and it's not a caster.

Obviously that's a sample size of 1 higher CR monster; it would be interesting to see how closely trends could actually be predicted.

Yeah, "spellcaster" is too precise. Most enemies that "for some reason might have some sort of resistance to magical effects" have save proficiency to both Wisdom and Charisma, so the strongest extraplanars, every dragons, etc they all have proficiency to both.

stoutstien
2022-04-20, 05:14 PM
I wonder how much truth there is in that. The first monster I looked up was Bone Devil. It's top scores are Con and Str. Chr and Dex are middling at 16s. Yet it's best 3 saves are Chr, Int, and Wis as it has proficiency in those... and it's not a caster.

Obviously that's a sample size of 1 higher CR monster; it would be interesting to see how closely trends could actually be predicted.

To be fair none mook devils(anything over a CR 3) tend to have high stats, saves, and resistances/immunities as a general rule even if they are Brutes. Probably based on their deal making nature. Even the lower ones have stuff like condition immunities so saves are a gamble.

If you are making a "from the hip" judgment on what save to target having a least the type is a big help. Don't try to frighten undead,don't try to charm constructs, and all that.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-20, 07:57 PM
To be fair none mook devils(anything over a CR 3) tend to have high stats, saves, and resistances/immunities as a general rule even if they are Brutes. Probably based on their deal making nature. Even the lower ones have stuff like condition immunities so saves are a gamble.

If you are making a "from the hip" judgment on what save to target having a least the type is a big help. Don't try to frighten undead,don't try to charm constructs, and all that.

Yeah, I don't think it's a spoiler to say in the context of some modules/ campaigns the answer to the OP's question is neither; summoning is way better. If you're playing Descent into Avernus there are going to be a lot of battles where the options are bad (high saves) to worse (resistance or immunity)

animorte
2022-04-20, 08:08 PM
Yeah, I don't think it's a spoiler to say in the context of some modules/ campaigns the answer to the OP's question is neither; summoning is way better. If you're playing Descent into Avernus there are going to be a lot of battles where the options are bad (high saves) to worse (resistance or immunity)

This exactly why my Warlock has a useful summon instead of focusing the few spell slots on something that requires saves. Leave that to the Bard and Cleric.

Bovine Colonel
2022-04-21, 03:10 AM
Party composition matters too. My current Wizard is in a party with a Sorlock and a Vengeance Paladin, so I go for saves just because they don't need more single-target damage.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-22, 12:38 AM
Party composition matters too. My current Wizard is in a party with a Sorlock and a Vengeance Paladin, so I go for saves just because they don't need more single-target damage.

That's fair. My Bard is in a small party with an Evoker (AoE) and a Battlemaster (Single target), so I'm trying to fill in gaps: Save or Suck (with Silvery Barbs), Buff, etc. I really am trying to be the Jack of all Trades in a group where the other 2 have fairly defined roles.