Champion fighter fixed (not my idea). Please rate how good/bad it is.

[Entessa]

https://www.flutesloot.com/champion-fighter-fixed-dnd-5e-subclass-revision/

[strangebloke]

Overall a lot stronger, but could be simpler.

level 3: using hit dice as a resource makes you less able to heal up over a day, and more reliant on healers. This seems very contrary to their stated intent. It's very strong though. So is the new natural athlete, and that's very in flavor. Me gusta wrt to the latter, not so much the former.
level 7: most of these are strong, though "free action" in the two weapon fury bit made me cringe.
level 10: relatively weak but not a terrible deal, considering that your earlier features all scale well.
level 15: Very strong, and honestly makes the barbarians brutal critical feature cry. Which isn't much, but its still something.

[loki_ragnarock]

The first part of their improved critical tweak (+2 to hit and damage under narrow circumstances) ain't great; it's finnicky, becomes something to track, which cuts against the whole Champion simplicity vibe. The use second wind for free and add some damage when you do isn't bad; you decide to do it, it's done, you move on. However, there must be a more elegant way to address the intent that they want to add 2d10 damage than to say it's 1d10, but actually a crit, so actually 2d10. Like, for instance, saying you get to add 2d10 damage outright.

For the Remarkable Athlete tweak, I'd ditch the + strength mod to jump checks entirely. The ability to increase move speed by 10ft will help them when they want to leap, anyway. I generally appreciate mobility boosters on fighters, and this is limited enough that it doesn't compete with the mobility focused classes while throwing them a bone in that department. The Third Wind synergizes with the Improved Crit Tweak and sells the durability angle before 18th level, so that's also pretty good.

I'm not a fan of giving them a second entire feature at level seven, but that's more in line with what they're doing with Tasha's and beyond classes... so I guess just stacking on additional bullet points at the given level is just the design space as it exists. Can't fault them for following the pattern. Anyway, beyond that, the numbers on display for specialization are... the sort of thing that might barely be justified by a tenth level feature, moved down three levels. Constant +3 to AC?! Consistent to +2 hit bonuses across the stack? It's very strong, just also very boring. A little much for bounded accuracy; this stuff needs dialed down for reals, especially in combination with the proposed +2 to hit/damage against critted targets. I'd limit it to the standard just picking an additional style if you're moving it down to 7th level.

Unwavering poise, I actually like this. Way better considered than the fighting style stuff. Really puts forward the idea that the character is a master of the physical realm. Synergizes well with Indomitable by increasing the instances where a reroll might actually let you succeed.

Superior Critical - I like this. Again cements the durability thing before 17th level, serves as a way to turn the even more frequent crits into mini smites every time while pouring hp into the character. A perhaps counterintuitive defensive boon all the way around, the disadvantage on attack rolls undermines the Slasher feat a bit, which is one of the ones most tempting to crit fishers. A small concern for something I otherwise like.


Survivor - I don't know that this one is required. Second wind regeneration is the gimmick they've decided to build around, but at this point they've got two second winds/short rest and a feature that regenerates them fairly reliably. Pouring on an additional means of regenerating them feels lackluster. I'd rather that it was something that made the "keep fighting" theme more robust; when they use indomitable to re-roll a save, they may roll with advantage. Something like that would make them a little less likely to be taken out of the fight by Hold Person or the like, and saves seem like the real threat to a level 18ish fighter; all sorts of monsters have fear and other save inducing auras by level 18.

All in all, some nice ideas are in there, marred by some design by bigger numbers.

EDIT
Wait, when you said ratings, did you mean like 700 tentacles of 1,000 or 1.6 billion stars out of 15 quintillion or 4 out of five bugbears or something?
Because I don't really have a good metric for that.

[Greywander]

It's kind of a mess, to be honest. One thing I will say is that building around a feature like Second Wind sounds like a good plan, they just let the complexity get away from them. Keep things simple and concise.

Just real quick, here's what I might do for a revised Champion:


Improved Ciritcal
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

In addition, once per turn, when you score a critical hit you may immediately make an additional weapon attack.

Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.

In addition, your carry weight is doubled, your jump distance is doubled, and your speed increases by 5 feet.

Great Comeback
Once you reach 7th level, you can shake off impairing effects when you use your Second Wind feature. When you use Second Wind, you may end all negative effects that are affecting you, and you are immune to those effects until the end of your next turn.

Fighting Mastery
At 10th level, master every fighting style, gaining the benefits of all of them at once. Note that most fighting styles only benefit you while using certain kinds of equipment.

Superior Critical
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

In addition, when you score a critical hit, you regain one use of the Indomitable feature.

Third Wind
Once you reach 15th level, you may use your Second Wind feature one additional time before you must complete a short or long rest.

Survivor
At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

Edit: I had to leave in a hurry after posting this, so I didn't have time to add any more comments. So I'll do so now.

The main difference to notice between the linked homebrew and this one is how concise and streamlined mine is. Compare both modified versions of Remarkable Athlete to see how mine is straightforward and to the point, and easy to use, while the other one has more fiddly bits. And this applies to almost all of the features. My version of Improved Critical is simpler and easier to use; their version is more convoluted and harder to wrap your head around completely. My paragraphs are shorter, too. And an entire list of upgraded fighting styles is just way too much.

Now, it can still be fun to write up a more complex class with convoluted options, but it isn't optimal. If you intend other people to use your homebrew, then it really does help to make it as simple and straightforward as you can. It's kind of like how Dwarf Fortress is a really fun game, but the complexity of it, and also just how obtuse the interface is, means it's really only fun for the people who already have a deep understanding of it and can work around the quirks.

Now, I don't know that I'd actually use the homebrew I posted; I'd probably want to go through a couple rounds of refining it, which might include dropping some features entirely, or replacing a feature with a completely different, and certainly a number of tweaks to the features that would stay. But it is an example, I think, of what a good homebrew would look like.

[Greywander]

Survivor - I don't know that this one is required. Second wind regeneration is the gimmick they've decided to build around, but at this point they've got two second winds/short rest and a feature that regenerates them fairly reliably.
So I wrote up a more refined version of the Champion in my previous post, and I've come to sort of the same conclusion. Building a subclass around Second Wind is a cool idea, and using crits to regain uses of Second Wind works well enough with an improved crit range, but it does make Survivor feel a bit redundant. Survivor is a great feature, it's just the fact that it's overlapping with Second Wind feels like you're not getting as much out of it.

Now, that said, I think the two features actually synergize pretty well, especially since my new version allows you to use Second Wind as a reaction to dropping to 0. Survivor helps keep your HP up while you're low, making you less likely to hit 0, and when you do, Survivor can bring your HP back up so you don't just drop again. Is it overkill? Maybe. But I'll bet it would feel good to play.

Here's the link to the new version: EDIT: I'm going to reuse this doc for a different take on a revised Champion, so I'll just copy and paste the details below under a spoiler.
Anything in blue is added/modified.

Improved Critical
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Rallying Wind
Starting when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you can shake off impairing effects when you use your Second Wind feature. When you use Second Wind, you may end one negative effect that is affecting you, and you are immune to that effect until the end of your next turn.

Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.

In addition, your carry weight is doubled, your jump distance is doubled, and your speed increases by 5 feet.

Your athletic conditioning also causes you to gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws. If you already have this proficiency, you instead gain proficiency in another saving throw of your choice.

Fighting Mastery
At 10th level, you master every fighting style, gaining the benefits of all of them at once. Note that most fighting styles only benefit you while using certain kinds of equipment.
In addition, you can draw or sheathe a weapon as part of making an attack with that weapon.

Final Breath
Beginning once you reach 10th level, you may use Second Wind one additional time between short or long rests. In addition, you may use Second Wind as a reaction when you are reduced to 0 hit points.

Superior Critical
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

Typhoon Force
When you reach 15th level, you regain one use of your Second Wind feature whenever you score a critical hit. In addition, your Rallying Wind now removes all negative effects and makes you immune to those effects until the end of your next turn.

Survivor
At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

Summary:

Improved Critical same as RAW.
Rallying Wind at 3rd level. Remove one negative effect when you use Second Wind, and become immune to that effect until the end of your next turn.
Remarkable Athlete at 7th level. + half proficiency to STR/DEX/CON checks, double carry weight and jump distance, +5 speed, and DEX save proficiency.
Fighting Mastery at 10th level. Get all the fighting styles, and you can draw and sheathe weapons as part of an attack.
Final Breath at 10th level. Get a second use of Second Wind, and you can use Second Wind as a reaction to dropping to 0 HP.
Superior Critical same as RAW.
Typhoon Force at 15th level. Regain one use of Second Wind when you crit, and Rallying Wind now removes/grants immunity to all negative effects.
Survivor same as RAW.

[bid]

Improved Critical
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

In addition, once per turn, when you score a critical hit you may immediately make an additional weapon attack.
Just doing that gives SD a run for its money. Nice.

[qube]

Overall a lot stronger, but could be simpler.This IMHO is a problem. Champions aren't weak - They are just a very niche playstyle (by lack of better term)

Claims like "The deceptive thing about Improved Critical by RAW is that it does very little for a Fighter that isn’t multiclassing." are simply incorrect. (mathematically, they are behind optimized builds of battlemaster ... but that's kind of the point of making an optimized build). If everyone plays optimized builds, then I could see why the champ needs a boost ... but in general ... meh.

Likewise on the complexity, I agree - it's much too messy.

And giving things like

When you score a critical hit with a weapon attack, you may activate your Second Wind ability as part of the attack. Doing so allows you to heal yourself as usual with Second Wind, and you may add 1d10 to your weapon attack’s damage (it becomes 2d10 due to the critical hit). If you don’t have Second Wind available, you can instead expend one of your Hit Dice and add it to the weapon attack’s damage
Goes directly against the niche the champion fills. Champion abilities should be easy, consistant abilities. If nothing else, kick out the entire entire section about second wind.
--> If you crit, you can use a hit die, to boost your damage. Done.
Or even better
--> If you crit, do +1d6 damage.
HECK, even better:
--> "if you crit, the next ally who attacks this enemy gets advantage"
(the inconcistency problem is now one for the next player, who probbably isn't a champ)

Other abilities, such as
reroll fumbles
half proficiency damage, if you miss
...
all could improve the champ, without making it a wishwash of complexity.

[Kane0]

Level 3: Improved Critical
Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20, and deal an additional weapon die of damage.

Level 7: Remarkable Athlete
You add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check you make, including checks you are proficient in but not checks that you apply expertise to.
In addition, when you jump you are always considered to have a running start.

Level 10: Additional Fighting Styles
You can choose two more options from the Fighting Style class feature, and swap one style you know during a short rest.

Level 15: Superior Critical
Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20, and deal an additional two weapon dice of damage.

Level 18: Survivor
While conscious and at no more than half your maximum hit points you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier at the beginning of each of your turns.

Yeah its basically just numbers, but Champions are supposed to be basic.

Edit: I do like the idea of adding in Dex save proficiency though

[Mastikator]

I think the point of the champion is to keep it simple, this moves in the wrong direction. I think champion lacks two things: not simple enough and not enough horizontal oomph. Adding vertical oomph does not make it more fun or interesting, it just attracts powergamers like me and lures us into a boring subclass. It does not need more combat power, it needs something to do outside combat.

At level 3 I think improved critical is fine as is, I'd rather just add another (any) skill, tool or language proficiency at level 3.
At level 7 it's too complicated again, just give expertise in athletics. And you add +10 feet max distance when jumping and +10 feet base movement speed.
At level 10 the second fighting style is nice but again lacks oomph, so I'd give another static bonus, like choose an ability score, gain proficiency in saving throw for that ability score.

This simplifies level 7, and level 3 and 10 gain options that are decided once and statically gives some benefit that doesn't require any decision making while playing.

Level 15 I think is cool as is, it's unique. Maybe throw in another skill or saving throw proficiency, but not add damage or offense. Or maybe even double proficiency in a saving throw that you already possess.
Level 18 I honestly think it should just heal all the way to 100%, the wizard is casting wish at this level, the champion fighter can heal up fully after every combat for free IMO.

[stoutstien]

Probably easier to use the brute UA.

[Entessa]

Thanks to each one of you for answering.

[Greywander]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like a subclass built around Second Wind could be really cool, but isn't a good fit for the Champion. The Champion just needs a little bulking up.

Some kind of bonus on a crit. Making an extra attack might suffice, but there are other options as well.
Streamlining and buffing Remarkable Athlete. I think double carry weight and jump distance, and +5 move speed are all great places to start. DEX save proficiency also fits, and propels this into a rather strong feature. Things like swim or climb speeds could also fit, but then the feature starts getting a bit too busy.
I still like my idea of just giving all fighting styles. It fits the idea of the Champion being the "noob subclass", since you don't have to worry about which fighting style to take, and being able to combine things like Defense and Blind Fighting with a weapon style gives a nice boost in power. Though this could get disproportionately powerful as more fighting styles are released.

And that's about it. Survivor is already great, and if Improved Critical already gives some additional bonus on a crit, then Superior Critical will compound that, so it might not be necessary to further buff Superior Critical.

I do want to look into a subclass built around Second Wind, though. I think I had some good ideas, between removing debuffs and being able to use it as a reaction to dropping to 0. It very much creates an impression of being unstoppable. I'd like to give a way to regain uses during combat, or at least to start each combat with one use, but since it heals you then you could get into cheese where you initiate combat with another party member so you can use Second Wind to heal, and then repeat that until you're at full health. Could make a separate "third wind" ability that functions identically, except it gives temp HP, so regaining a use couldn't heal you.

[kazaryu]

This IMHO is a problem. Champions aren't weak - They are just a very niche playstyle (by lack of better term)

Claims like "The deceptive thing about Improved Critical by RAW is that it does very little for a Fighter that isn’t multiclassing." are simply incorrect. (mathematically, they are behind optimized builds of battlemaster ... but that's kind of the point of making an optimized build). If everyone plays optimized builds, then I could see why the champ needs a boost ... but in general ... meh.

.

champion fighters are not weak...only because the fighter class is, in and of itself, really good. the champion subclass is basically non-existent.

at 3rd level you get a small boost to crit chance...in practice this is between a 2-5% increase in dpr with the average somewhere around 3%. the big problem with it is that 5e's crit damage multiplier is so low. which is why some people like to 'fix' this feature by also increasing the crit damage multiplier. otherwise, yes, this feature really only does something for a multiclass character (for example multiclass with a bladelock or a paladin, so you can add smites to crits).
at 7th level you get half proficiency to non-proficient str/dex checks. this is a bad feature for a couple reasons. 1. if you aren't proficient in a check, you're less likely to make it to begin with. 2. if you're not proficient with a check, you're already significantly less likely to succeed, and and the +1 from this is unlikely to matter. (for levels 7/8 this ability has a 5% chance of being relevant. and from 9-16 only a 10% chance).
10th level is the first decent feature you get: especially with tasha's, since tasha's add a few fighting styles that can stack with each other, so you're not stuck just increasing your versatility.
15th level is another 3% increase in dpr
18th level: probably one of the strongest capstones in the game. *finally* you get an actual full class feature that is useful...just in time to fight the final boss and end the campaign.

its a really weak subclass. don't get me wrong, its perfectly fine to play it, if you enjoy that type of stuff. but objectively, its a really weak subclass until you hit 18 and get the limited regen ability.







as far as the OP, i tend to agree with the 'its too complicated' crowd. Champion should, imo, remain simple.

[paladinn]

I would submit my previous proposal to substitute a version of the ranger "hunter" subclass. The hunter itself is quite detached from the core ranger class, and would work much better on the fighter chassis.

It adds ability without a lot of complexity, and could work well for either melee or ranged-based fighters.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?643497-Ranger-Champion-Alternative

[loki_ragnarock]

at 7th level you get half proficiency to non-proficient str/dex checks. this is a bad feature for a couple reasons. 1. if you aren't proficient in a check, you're less likely to make it to begin with. 2. if you're not proficient with a check, you're already significantly less likely to succeed, and and the +1 from this is unlikely to matter. (for levels 7/8 this ability has a 5% chance of being relevant. and from 9-16 only a 10% chance).
Remarkable Athlete is a weird one, for sure. It doesn't make much sense from a player facing perspective, but from a total system view it has a fair few niche areas that apply. I recall reading through the monster manual a few years ago and noticing that there were a couple of monsters that would call for a strength check from the player - not an athletics check, not a strength save - and in those instances +2-3 bonus from Remarkable Athlete puts the Champion marginally ahead of the competition. Rolling initiative? +2-3.The vial is falling and you're trying to catch it before it hits the ground, releasing the toxic gas? Make a dex check, +2-3.
Also, if you're not proficient in stealth or athletics or thieves tools or whatever. Sure. That, too.

It's a simple enough mechanic that it's easy to apply it when it comes up, but it comes up more than you'd think.

(Whether or not the player remembers to use it is another story.)

[TyGuy]

At level 3 I think improved critical is fine as is, I'd rather just add another (any) skill, tool or language proficiency at level 3.
At level 7 it's too complicated again, just give expertise in athletics. And you add +10 feet max distance when jumping and +10 feet base movement speed.
At level 10 the second fighting style is nice but again lacks oomph, so I'd give another static bonus, like choose an ability score, gain proficiency in saving throw for that ability score.


I love this direction and agree that the thing lacking is not verticle power but more simplicity and horizontal power.
Level 7 annoys me the most about champion. I like this suggestion. Skip the finicky distance calculations that don't do a lot and just give flat jump distance boost. I would also offer the choice of proficiency in athletics or acrobatics and a boost to expertise if the chosen skill already has proficiency.

[qube]

champion fighters are not weak...only because the fighter class is, in and of itself, really good.quite true - but that doesn't chance the fact you have to look at the sum of the parts. Nobody plays champion without fighter


at 3rd level you get a small boost to crit chance...in practice this is between a 2-5% increase in dpr:smallconfused: I'm not sure where you get those numbers? At 50% hit chance, a greatsword + GW fighting style :
at +3 damage (which you'd expect for a 3rd lvl) = 6.0833... DPA to 6.5 DPA = 6.9% increase
at +4 damage = 6.5833.. DPA to 7 DPA = 6.3%
(and at that level, the only difference between DPA and DPR is if you use action surge - which has no bearing on the percentile increase)

of course, harder to hit enemies* or a party member that grants advantage** increase the numbers even more.

* (40% +3 STR yields a +8.4% )
** (50% adv +3 Str yields +8.3%)

[Mastikator]

I love this direction and agree that the thing lacking is not verticle power but more simplicity and horizontal power.
Level 7 annoys me the most about champion. I like this suggestion. Skip the finicky distance calculations that don't do a lot and just give flat jump distance boost. I would also offer the choice of proficiency in athletics or acrobatics and a boost to expertise if the chosen skill already has proficiency.

I'd be generous with level 7 and just give expertise period. If you already have proficiency you gain proficiency in any other skill, and likewise if you already have expertise in athletics. With martials I like to be generous when it comes to non-combat related stuff. (and with casters I prefer to be stingy)

[stoutstien]

quite true - but that doesn't chance the fact you have to look at the sum of the parts. Nobody plays champion without fighter

:smallconfused: I'm not sure where you get those numbers? At 50% hit chance, a greatsword + GW fighting style :
at +3 damage (which you'd expect for a 3rd lvl) = 6.0833... DPA to 6.5 DPA = 6.9% increase
at +4 damage = 6.5833.. DPA to 7 DPA = 6.3%
(and at that level, the only difference between DPA and DPR is if you use action surge - which has no bearing on the percentile increase)

of course, harder to hit enemies* or a party member that grants advantage** increase the numbers even more.

* (40% +3 STR yields a +8.4% )
** (50% adv +3 Str yields +8.3%)
50% hit is a tad low to be a reasonable assumption but because a 19 will hit as much as a 20 will on 99% of the printed blocks the net gain is smaller than the GWM style with a great sword. The entire subclass feature is providing less damage than the lowest impact fighting style they gained at lv 1.

[qube]

50% hit is a tad low to be a reasonable assumptionI guess you and I got a dfferent defintion of reasonable. 50% has always been the guideline in quick calcs. But OK.

if you average AC of the CR 3 MM monsters, you actually get 14.35, that's 10 to hit (55%), or a +6.3% DPA.
The DMG proposes AC 13 for CR 3 MM monsters - that's 8 to hit (65%), or a +5.8% DPA.


still not 2-5%

But hey, I'll totally give it to you that a champ is less effective in an easy encounter compared to a battlemaster that wastes his superiorty dice in those.

The entire subclass feature is providing less damage thanTrying to comparing apples with oranges, when, even worse, you get both - not one or the other. Ultimately, Kazaryu & I already adressed this:


Kazaryu: champion fighters are not weak...only because the fighter class is, in and of itself, really good.
Me: quite true - but that doesn't chance the fact you have to look at the sum of the parts. Nobody plays champion without fighter

[stoutstien]

I guess you and I got a dfferent defintion of reasonable. 50% has always been the guideline in quick calcs. But OK.

if you average AC of the CR 3 MM monsters, you actually get 14.35, that's 10 to hit (55%), or a +6.3% DPA.
The DMG proposes AC 13 for CR 3 MM monsters - that's 8 to hit (65%), or a +5.8% DPA.


still not 2-5%

But hey, I'll totally give it to you that a champ is less effective in an easy encounter compared to a battlemaster that wastes his superiorty dice in those.
Trying to comparing apples with oranges, when, even worse, you get both - not one or the other. Ultimately, Kazaryu & I already adressed this:


Kazaryu: champion fighters are not weak...only because the fighter class is, in and of itself, really good.
Me: quite true - but that doesn't chance the fact you have to look at the sum of the parts. Nobody plays champion without fighter

The point was the subclass feature that only adds damage is adding less to the whole than the weakest offensive pick of the lv 1 feature which is available to all fighters. No way to phrase that in good light.

[qube]

The point was the subclass feature that only adds damage is adding less to the whole than the weakest offensive pick of the lv 1 feature which is available to all fighters. No way to phrase that in good light.There's indeed no way to phrase that in a good light. Buit considering that is both wrong and irrelevent, I don't plan on doing so.

See, before I'm going to claim it's the worst option, I'm actually going to LOOK at the options.

two weapon fighting style drop of is so horrible, it's equivalent to a a normal greatsword without fighting style at 5 and just plainly underpowered at 11
Unarmed fighting style makes your hands equivalent to a non magical simple weapon (and considering a grapple attampt is an attack, you forgo A LOT of damage, to deal an unmodified d4 damage next turn)
Depending on manouvre pick, superior technique also isn't that good, as most manouvres of only +3.5 damage per short rest & save-or-effect. That amount of damage is just pityful, as the GWFS applies to every hit (and as you previously argued, it's would be unreasonable to argue that a champ only hits half of the time.)

And besides all that, it's still apples and oranges. the fact it's hard - or even impossible to "phrase" an irrelevant claim "in good light" - is ultimately even more irrelevant.

[stoutstien]

There's indeed no way to phrase that in a good light. Buit considering that is both wrong and irrelevent, I don't plan on doing so.

See, before I'm going to claim it's the worst option, I'm actually going to LOOK at the options.

two weapon fighting style drop of is so horrible, it's equivalent to a a normal greatsword without fighting style at 5 and just plainly underpowered at 11
Unarmed fighting style makes your hands equivalent to a non magical simple weapon (and considering a grapple attampt is an attack, you forgo A LOT of damage, to deal an unmodified d4 damage next turn)
Depending on manouvre pick, superior technique also isn't that good, as most manouvres of only +3.5 damage per short rest & save-or-effect. That amount of damage is just pityful, as the GWFS applies to every hit (and as you previously argued, it's would be unreasonable to argue that a champ only hits half of the time.)

And besides all that, it's still apples and oranges. the fact it's hard - or even impossible to "phrase" an irrelevant claim "in good light" - is ultimately even more irrelevant.

Since you were basing your measurements on % damage increase why wouldn't you do the same for the other styles?
Twf - adding 3-5 damage once per round is bad....but it beats GWF up to three attacks. unless you action surge. Even at 50% hit rate with a +3 mod it's worth almost 1.5 damage. So for over 50% of the level range the style you say is horrible is better than the champion's extended crit range.

Unarmed is going for 1+mod to 1d6/1d8 +mod. Roughly a 100% for those who are headbutting.

The 1 BM die a day is best left out because it has the advantage of getting to pick what it is and when you apply it. Either way its not a pure offensive opinion.

Archery and duelist where left out and it's pretty obvious why.


if you want apple to apples you could take it further and say the cavalier's extra attack option that is only 1/4 of the features they get at 3 beats the champion until over 9 rounds of combat are over and at least the cav can pick when they use their damage spike.

The champion is bad. Really bad.

[strangebloke]

Adding to all this, the level 3 feature is actually interesting, but all the potential things you can really do with it would strongly push you to multiclass, since the champion class itself has no internal synergy with itself. Getting more crits synergizes well with say paladin, because of smite-crits. It synergizes well with barbarian, because they have big dice weapons and reckless attack and (lol) brutal critical. Improved critical synergizes with Battlemaster because you can use it to double maneuver damage.

I don't like this homebrew having you spend hit dice for the reason I outlined, but it does at least give you a payoff for those extra crits you're getting.

Improved Critical does not synergize with natural athlete, or anything else Champion has, and frankly is just kind of weak to begin with. Once every 20 attacks you get +1d8/2d6 damage. That's it. The absolute most you can do is use a maul and the crusher feat with GWM to get more BA attacks and set up advantage. Which is like. Kind of neat? But still pretty lame.

[kazaryu]

quite true - but that doesn't chance the fact you have to look at the sum of the parts. Nobody plays champion without fighter correct, but fighter being good does not mean that champion is. to put it another way, with any subclass you can get the fighter features, while also feeling like you have a subclass, with champion thats really not true consistently until level 10 at a minimum, more likely 18.


:smallconfused: I'm not sure where you get those numbers? At 50% hit chance, a greatsword + GW fighting style :[list] you're right, i was miscalculating. i was simply doing 5% chance to proc x damage multiplier (which caps out at +100%) thus 5%. however, thats not really how crits work, they just add flat die. its much better to look at it from that perspective.
so for a d8 weapon, at 50% accuracy, with a +3 to damage (yeah, this dude is using a D8 weapon, but for some reason didn't go dueling fighting style.)
so thats
4.125 DPA->4.35DPA a 5.4% increase (compare that to the dueling fighting styles 26% increase, at its lowest)
then for a great axe wielding dude (greatsword has the better DPA, but is MUCH worse in terms of crit muliplier). thats:
5.225 DPA->5.55DPA, a 6.2% increase. great weapon fighting style goes from 6.5 DPH->7.3333DPH a 12.8% increase.



of course, harder to hit enemies* or a party member that grants advantage** increase the numbers even more.


right, but its incredibly uncommon to encounter enemies that are even at a 50% hit chance, much less lower, meanwhile it *is* common to have a higher hit chance, and more flat damage on your attacks (which reduces the effectiveness of improved critical). so, to sum up: at level 3 you get a 5-7% increase in DPR from the champion. and at level 7 you get a feature that provides a small bonus, to ability checks that you'll rarely make. That means that the first significant feature you get is level 10 (as previously mentioned) and even *then* its mostly only going to add versatility, not damage. That isn't a bad thing, but it took you 10 levels to get to this point, and got basically nothing along the way. hell, your 10th level feature is just a feat that anybody could take at level 1.

That, once again, leaves the only real feature you get is the one at level 18. This is the complaint that people have with champions. sure, the improved critical exists. and 1/20 attack rolls (or 1/10ish with advantage) you'll notice it. but even in those circumstances you have a 50% chance of the bonus critical die dealing an extra...1-4 damage...fun. its a weak subclass for the most part. now...

if you go half-orc, and grab the piercer feat at level 4....

now the improved critical feature is worth (50% accuracy)
rapier- 15.2% (with +3 static) or 9% (with +5 str, +2 dueling, +1 weapon)
pike:- 16% (with +3static) or 13% (with+5str, +1 weapon and great weapon fighting style)
lance: 17% or 14%. (with, of course, the downsides of using a lance)

those numbers look a lot better, although they may still not be great. However, your crits will *Feel* a ton better roll 4x the dice instead of just twice the dice. especially since they'll now more reliably get some big damage. But thats one specific build that *Really* doubles down on what the champion does well, and it massively pigeonholes the subclass to a select few weapons. and a single race (unless there are other races with similar abilities to savage attacks).


TLDR: im not saying you can't have fun playing a champion. Im not saying that people shouldn't play champions. Nor am i saying that people playing champions should play the build i just listed. What i am saying is that from a numerical standpoint, the champion subclass adds very little to the base fighter chasis if you don't invest in crit damage multipliers.

[Gurgeh]

then for a great axe wielding dude (greatsword has the better DPA, but is MUCH worse in terms of crit muliplier). thats:
5.225 DPA->5.55DPA, a 6.2% increase. great weapon fighting style goes from 6.5 DPH->7.3333DPH a 12.8% increase.
Eh? I might be missing something, but I wouldn't think criticals would change much for a greataxe vs a greatsword at unless you bring in stuff like Brutal Critical or Savage Attacks (in which case - fair enough, but not everyone playing a champion is going to want to pigeonhole their character so thoroughly).

More generally - Improved critical does eventually give reasonable mileage even without serious optimisation, but only at very high levels when multiple layers of Extra Attack come into play to take advantage of the fact that it's not resource-limited.

At third level when you actually get the feature, it's almost always giving you less damage than the 4d8 per short rest you'd get from going Battle Master and using all of your dice for on-hit manouevres, even if you assume that any non-damaging effects from those manoeuvres fail - and the Battle Master also gets a ribbon at third, while the champion gets nothing else.

Like - you are almost definitely not rolling enough attacks to average three 19s per short rest. You're probably not even averaging two 19s per short rest.

[kazaryu]

Eh? I might be missing something, but I wouldn't think criticals would change much for a greataxe vs a greatsword at unless you bring in stuff like Brutal Critical or Savage Attacks (in which case - fair enough, but not everyone playing a champion is going to want to pigeonhole their character so thoroughly).

More generally - Improved critical does eventually give reasonable mileage even without serious optimisation, but only at very high levels when multiple layers of Extra Attack come into play to take advantage of the fact that it's not resource-limited.

At third level when you actually get the feature, it's almost always giving you less damage than the 4d8 per short rest you'd get from going Battle Master and using all of your dice for on-hit manouevres, even if you assume that any non-damaging effects from those manoeuvres fail - and the Battle Master also gets a ribbon at third, while the champion gets nothing else.

Like - you are almost definitely not rolling enough attacks to average three 19s per short rest. You're probably not even averaging two 19s per short rest. lmao, you're right, greatsword vs greataxe is specifically in the case of brutal critical (or things like savage attacker. regardless the math shouldn't significantly change for 1d12 vs 2d6, at least as far as improved critical is concerned. But thank you for calling me on that.

improved critical+superior critical is a decent buff (10-12% bonus DPR). and yeah, i suppose when you're mkaing 3-4 attacks per round, and consistently have advantage (and as a result are critting roughly every other round) then you can feel like you have a subclass. at those levels its still as ineffective numerically, but at least it feels present.

something i was intending to go into, but forgot to, was that part of the reason champion doesn't feel as present (or might not, would be a better phrasing) is that improved critical is purely a passive feature. things like echo knight, battle master, eldritch knight, are not only numerically better. but their core features are also activateable abilites. allowing the player to strategize around them. you can as a battlemaster, part of your tactical decision making *is* your subclass ability. 'hey, if i hit the big bad, i have a chance of forcing him to drop the buster sword thats giving us trouble' 'i know there's a rogue in the party, so if i grab the commanders strike ability, i can give them an off turn sneak attack', etc. whereas with champion its just...play a fighter, and every once in a while you'll do a bit of extra damage.

were multiclassing not a thing, i'd almost recommend superior critical be combined with improved critical. a 10-12% increase in DPR at level 3 wouldn't be all that busted. maybe do that, but then swap its places with extra fighting style. so the core feature is you get 2 fighting styles, then at 10 you get massively incresed crit range....having an extra fighting style would at least help with the playstyle. its still not great, but you can build a distinct playstyle around having 2 (or 3 if you go v.human) fighting styles at level 3. a spear based fighting style where you swap back and forth between stabbing people with them, and throwing them. could be interesting.

[qube]

correct, but fighter being good does not mean that champion is.Oh, agreed. However, the champion fighter is sufficient.

In the past I ran numbers, comparing a champion & a battlemaster in a fight ... I think it was against 2 apes (though I could be wrong), and how long the fight took.
And while, sure, the battlemaster had a few fights that he won a round faster - we're talking about numbers that are very very close.

We're talking about the effect of using a 'normal' d20 (like a chessex one), instead of one that's officially callibrated, that might already have a bigger effect.

And that's something that's commonly overlooked. Yes, the battlemaster will do a couple of points more damage. But to actually transfer that few points he'll have to spend a great amount of effort into making those couple of points, make an actual difference. And that, in fact, I would call good design.

One has to watch our not to be overly focused on numbers. I'm not deying 9 is less then 10, but against a 6 hp enemy ... 9 equals 10 equals 10 000 000.

[stoutstien]

Oh, agreed. However, the champion fighter is sufficient.

In the past I ran numbers, comparing a champion & a battlemaster in a fight ... I think it was against 2 apes (though I could be wrong), and how long the fight took.
And while, sure, the battlemaster had a few fights that he won a round faster - we're talking about numbers that are very very close.

We're talking about the effect of using a 'normal' d20 (like a chessex one), instead of one that's officially callibrated, that might already have a bigger effect.

And that's something that's commonly overlooked. Yes, the battlemaster will do a couple of points more damage. But to actually transfer that few points he'll have to spend a great amount of effort into making those couple of points, make an actual difference. And that, in fact, I would call good design.

One has to watch our not to be overly focused on numbers. I'm not deying 9 is less then 10, but against a 6 hp enemy ... 9 equals 10 equals 10 000 000.

I think your math is way off. The BM dice is most likely damage added to an attack that has already landed, potentially turning a miss into a hit, or even granting an entire extra turn in the encounter. It usually takes double digit rounds of medium+ encounters when their counterparts are out of resources before the champion even has a chance to get out of the hole they dug.
None of this touches the subclass real issues with no mobility(maybe the worse in game), limited out of combat utility, low mitigation and defensive options, and low return for buffs and other resource expenditures.

[qube]

Ah, here we go.

Statistical proof against champion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528527-Statistical-proof-against-champion-no-actual-impact).

On the one hand, 2 riposting & critboosting battle masters who have to do resource management (as they do in real games) compared to 2 champions.
On the other 4 giant apes, but also in a later stage compared to 4 bears, 2 animate armors, 1 awakened tree, 1 manticore, 1 ettin, 1 barbed devil. (seperate encounters, not consecutive ones)

To quote the conclusion that the OP posted in the first post


The randomness of the dice has a larger impact:
- you can have too many lucky rolls of 1 or 20,
- you can do 12 damage on a creature with 4 hp left.
This chaos drowns any gain from the level 3 archetype features.

[strangebloke]

Ah, here we go.

Statistical proof against champion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528527-Statistical-proof-against-champion-no-actual-impact).

On the one hand, 2 riposting & critboosting battle masters who have to do resource management (as they do in real games) compared to 2 champions.
On the other 4 giant apes, but also in a later stage compared to 4 bears, 2 animate armors, 1 awakened tree, 1 manticore, 1 ettin, 1 barbed devil. (seperate encounters, not consecutive ones)

To quote the conclusion that the OP posted in the first post


The randomness of the dice has a larger impact:
- you can have too many lucky rolls of 1 or 20,
- you can do 12 damage on a creature with 4 hp left.
This chaos drowns any gain from the level 3 archetype features.

Yeah this is the basic problem with crit-based abilities. To point to brutal critical, if you're using a greataxe its +1d12 once every 10 attacks (if reckless), which averages out to .65, but only if you're reckless attacking constantly. This is really weak (doesn't even make it worth using a greataxe over a greatsword) but also tends to be wasted, especially as you get brutal critical more times. A level 20 half-orc zealot will be dealing 6d12+10+5+2d6+10 = 71 damage on a crit. That's a lot! But of that, only 26 is from brutal critical, and its pretty easy to see how at least that much damage would be wasted completely in the event of an actual crit.

Improved critical is more efficient because the damage is more spread out, but "better than brutal critical" is a very very low bar. The ability only comes up on 1/20 attacks, and only adds (at most) 1d12 damage, for a per-attack average of .375. Absolutely abysmal, and if you're using a rapier or longbow it drops further to .275. The way to make it better is to get effects that trigger on a crit or can be made better by a crit, like GWM and crusher. But even adding a BA attack with GWM with advantage, you're only really getting like +2 damage out of the synergy.

It's a very weak ability, to the point that you could lead with making the crit range 18/20 or even 17/20 and not break anything.

[kazaryu]

The randomness of the dice has a larger impact:
- you can have too many lucky rolls of 1 or 20,
- you can do 12 damage on a creature with 4 hp left.
This chaos drowns any gain from the level 3 archetype features.

no...it doesn't. the chaos, and randomness, reinforces averages, as we've been discussing. yes, you *can*, in a one shot play a champion, and you might crit 4-5 times that night by rolling a 19. that can happen. however, over the course of a campaign, you're extremely unlikely to. Thats the secondary problem with the champion that you're not addressing.

numerically, it barely exists. However, in terms of gameplay, and actual feel, that faeture is affecting *at best* 9% of your attack rolls. and at worst 20% of them. How often that comes up matters. (which means the campaign matters. if you're spending every 4 hour session just doing combats, ok, you might actually trigger your subclass feature once or twice per session. but thats not how a lot of campaigns are run, meaning you might trigger your subclass once every few sessions. And that *could* be fine, if the trigger was really cool, or strong. but its not. all you have is a feature that infrequently comes into play, and when it does come into play, is lackluster compared to the amount of time you waited for it. and that applies to both your level 3 and level 7 feature.

[Yakk]

Ah, here we go.

Statistical proof against champion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528527-Statistical-proof-against-champion-no-actual-impact).

On the one hand, 2 riposting & critboosting battle masters who have to do resource management (as they do in real games) compared to 2 champions.
On the other 4 giant apes, but also in a later stage compared to 4 bears, 2 animate armors, 1 awakened tree, 1 manticore, 1 ettin, 1 barbed devil. (seperate encounters, not consecutive ones)

To quote the conclusion that the OP posted in the first post


The randomness of the dice has a larger impact:
- you can have too many lucky rolls of 1 or 20,
- you can do 12 damage on a creature with 4 hp left.
This chaos drowns any gain from the level 3 archetype features.
I'm sorry, but (a) your BM isn't playing very good. Precise attack when missing by 1 or 2 or 3 is better than a riposte (1 is a guaranteed attack, 2 is 88% and 3 is 75% chance). And (b) going from a 15% chance of TPK to 4% chance of TPK is a pretty big change.

Your python script has at least one bug; initiative (champions get +2). Also riposte goes off on your turn, not when it happens. Your fighter accuracy is off by 1.

Fixing everything except riposte, trying against 8 apes (so we aren't overwealmed by "the baseline fighter always wins"), I get:


**** raw fighter
f0 60.27 6027
f1 18.88 1888
m0 39.73 3973
m1 34.7 3470
m2 25.51 2551
m3 14.79 1479
m4 6.04 604
m5 1.62 162
m6 0.25 25
m7 0.03 3
percent out of 10000 tries
**** champion
f0 66.73 6673
f1 23.6 2360
m0 33.27 3327
m1 28.57 2857
m2 20.28 2028
m3 11.01 1101
m4 4.15 415
m5 0.82 82
m6 0.1 10
m7 0.01 1
percent out of 10000 tries
**** BM 1 SD
f0 80.26 8026
f1 34.96 3496
m0 19.74 1974
m1 15.79 1579
m2 10.17 1017
m3 4.81 481
m4 1.59 159
m5 0.35 35
m6 0.02 2
m7 0.0 0
percent out of 10000 tries
**** BM 2 SD
f0 90.18 9018
f1 46.12 4612
m0 9.82 982
m1 7.55 755
m2 4.0 400
m3 1.74 174
m4 0.47 47
m5 0.07 7
m6 0.0 0
m7 0.0 0
percent out of 10000 tries
**** BM 3 SD
f0 95.5 9550
f1 55.32 5532
m0 4.5 450
m1 3.17 317
m2 1.71 171
m3 0.77 77
m4 0.28 28
m5 0.06 6
m6 0.0 0
m7 0.0 0
percent out of 10000 tries
ie, 2 BM with 3 superiority dice each have a 4.5% wipe chance against 8 apes, while 2 champions have a 33.3% wipe chance.

Even with only 1 SD left, 2 BMs have a 20% wipe chance, vs the 2 champion 33% wipe chance.

Champion vs Baseline is 7.7% survival. Champion vs 3 SD BM is 27% difference in survival chance. Each SD die is better than the entire Champion level 3 kit, and the BM gets 3 of them.

What more, you don't even get good "Timmy" moments from the Champion. Turning a by your PC into a hit is a 10.5 point damage impact, turning a miss by a foe into a riposte is a 10.5 point damage impact, doubling a crit is a 9 point damage impact. The extra crits the Champion gets are a mere 4.5 points here each, and less common than the BM's moments of cool by far.

The 3 SD BM has a 55% chance of having 0 deaths, closer to the Champions 66.7% chance of having 1 survive than the BM chance of being reduced to 1 fighter.


Fixed python code:


from random import randint
import numpy as np


def fighter_rapier():
damage = randint(1, 8) + 6
extra = randint(1, 8)
return damage, extra


def fighter_rapier_sd():
damage, extra = fighter_rapier()
damage += randint(1, 8)
extra += randint(1, 8)
return damage, extra


def monster_damage():
""" ape """
return 6, 3


def try_riposte(target):
if target['sd'] > 0 and not target['riposte']:
target['riposte'] = True
target['sd'] -= 1


def encounter(team1, team2, log):
creature_list = team1 + team2
for creature in creature_list:
creature['init'] += randint(1, 20)
creature['round'] = -1
creature['riposte'] = False
# creatures will attack in initiative order
creature_list = sorted(creature_list, key=lambda o: o['init'], reverse=True)
rround = 0
while True:
rround += 1
log('round {}'.format(rround))
for creature in creature_list:
# creatures is down, skip it
targets = team1 if creature in team2 else team2
if creature['hp'] <= 0:
attack_list = [][:]
else:
attack_list = creature['attacks'][:] # copy, since we modify it
if creature['surge'] and rround == 1:
attack_list.extend(creature['attacks'])
if creature['riposte']:
attack_list.append(creature['sd_attack'])
if len(attack_list)==0:
continue
for attack in attack_list:
# always target the last enemy
target = targets[-1]
attack_roll = randint(1, 20)
if attack_roll >= creature['crit']:
try_riposte(target)
if creature['sd'] > 0 and attack != creature['sd_attack']:
damage, extra = creature['sd_attack']()
creature['sd'] -= 1
else:
damage, extra = attack()
target['hp'] -= damage + extra
log('{} crits {} for {}'.format(creature['n'], target['n'], damage + extra))
elif attack_roll + creature['hit'] >= target['ac']:
try_riposte(target)
damage, extra = attack()
target['hp'] -= damage
log('{} hits {} for {}'.format(creature['n'], target['n'], damage))
elif attack_roll + creature['hit'] + 3 >= target['ac'] and creature['sd'] >= 1:
creature['sd'] -= 1
if randint(1,8)+attack_roll + creature['hit']>= target['ac']:
try_riposte(target)
damage, extra = attack()
target['hp'] -= damage
log('{} hits {} for {}'.format(creature['n'], target['n'], damage))
else:
log('{} misses {}'.format(creature['n'], target['n']))
else:
log('{} misses {}'.format(creature['n'], target['n']))

if target['hp'] <= 0:
log('{} down'.format(target['n']))
# target is down, remove from team1 / team2 list
target['round'] = rround
targets.pop()
if len(targets) == 0:
return creature_list
creature['riposte'] = False


def stats(repeat, char, char_count, monster, monster_count):
def log(s):
print(s)
if repeat > 1:
log = lambda s: 0
survival = {}
survival.update({'f{}'.format(i): [] for i in range(char_count)})
survival.update({'m{}'.format(i): [] for i in range(monster_count)})
for i in range(repeat):
team_fighter = [dict(n='f{}'.format(i), **char) for i in range(char_count)]
team_monster = [dict(n='m{}'.format(i), **monster) for i in range(monster_count)]
creature_list = encounter(team_fighter, team_monster, log)
for creature in creature_list:
if creature['round'] == -1:
survival[creature['n']].append(creature['hp'])
for k in sorted(survival):
print(k, len(survival[k]) * 100. / repeat, len(survival[k])) and '{:.2f}'.format(np.average(survival[k]))
print('percent out of {} tries'.format(repeat))


# rapier, dueling style (+2), Dex18 (+4), half-plate + shield """
fighter = dict(
attacks=[fighter_rapier, fighter_rapier], sd_attack=fighter_rapier_sd,
init=4, hp=49, ac=19, hit=7, crit=20, sd=0, surge=True)
ape = dict(
attacks=[monster_damage, monster_damage],
init=2, hp=19, ac=12, hit=5, crit=20, sd=0, surge=False)
print('**** raw fighter')
stats(10000, fighter, 2, ape, 8)
print('**** champion')
fighter['init'] = 6 # +6 initiative
fighter['crit'] = 19 # champion crits on 19
stats(10000, fighter, 2, ape, 8)
print('**** BM 1 SD')
fighter['init'] = 4 # +4 initiative
fighter['crit'] = 20
fighter['sd'] = 1 # BM with a single SD
stats(10000, fighter, 2, ape, 8)
print('**** BM 2 SD')
fighter['init'] = 4 # +4 initiative
fighter['crit'] = 20
fighter['sd'] = 2 # BM with a 2 SD
stats(10000, fighter, 2, ape, 8)
print('**** BM 3 SD')
fighter['init'] = 4 # +4 initiative
fighter['crit'] = 20
fighter['sd'] = 3 # BM with a 2 SD
stats(10000, fighter, 2, ape, 8)

(I tried to support riposte after death, but it doesn't work. So the BM is still under powered in this model.)

If I add in second wind (used when down 15 or more HP) and up the number of apes to 10, we get 83% TPK with raw fighter, 78% TPK with champions, and 32% TPK with 2 3 SD die BMs.(35%, 54%, 68% victory chance for 1 2 or 3 SD).

The champions impact remains marginal. The BM impact remains substantial.

---

Champions are neither Timmy-good nor optimization-good. A BM played with really simple rules does their job better.

---

I do like the idea of second wind leverage. But I'd be a bit cleaner with more oomph:

Improved Second Wind:
When you use your second wind, you can make a melee weapon attack (or two melee weapon attacks if you are wielding a light weapon in each hand), and instead of 1d10+fighter level you heal 1d10 for every 2 fighter levels (rounded up)+your fighter level.

That seems crazy strong? But when I modeled it in a 2:10 fight against apes, it was about as powerful as having a single SD for a battlemaster.

It has a number of neat properties; it discourages alpha strike (because you want that big beefy heal), it swings the battle (almost down? You haven't seen nothing yet!) in a fun impactful way, and (as noted) it avoids being overly powerful. It gives an offensive boost, but one that is best saved for when the chips are down and things are looking poor (which is the funnest time to have one, if not the most optimal).

Also, it gives the largest boost at the point where the Champion is weakest compared to the Battlemaster.

I mean, I'd also go after the level 10 champion feature (a second fighting style is extremely dull). And it does make Survivor not quite as great (as you can second wind your way out of low HP). On the other hand, it makes "surfing at half HP" more tempting, and a full second wind won't take someone from single-digits up past half unless you are lucky.

I might add some offensive oomph in T3/T4 to keep it from being overwealmingly defensive; otoh, I don't want it to be an extra action surge.

Combat Flexibility:
Starting at level 10, you can learn up to your proficiency bonus in fighting styles. You can have one fighting style from the fighter class active at a time. When you switch fighting styles, you may also unequip and stow shields or weapons, and draw and equip shields and weapons for this new style. You can switch fighting styles at the start of your turn.

This might be a bit much, but limiting it to proficiency bonus should keep it from being "look up every fighting style in every book" in-play, and instead "have a prepared list".

So you can have Defensive, Interception, Archery, Dueling, Blind Fighting and Brawling styles prepared, and use whichever is best for a situation (by T4 that is).

[Kane0]

Improved Second Wind:
When you use your second wind, you can make a melee weapon attack (or two melee weapon attacks if you are wielding a light weapon in each hand), and instead of 1d10+fighter level you heal 1d10 for every 2 fighter levels (rounded up)+your fighter level.

Still sounds a bit complicated for Champ IMO. Perhaps just say 'when you use Second Wind you can also make one weapon attack' and then give them two uses of Second Wind per SR instead of one (like Clerics get an additional use of Channel).



Combat Flexibility:
Starting at level 10, you can learn up to your proficiency bonus in fighting styles. You can have one fighting style from the fighter class active at a time. When you switch fighting styles, you may also unequip and stow shields or weapons, and draw and equip shields and weapons for this new style. You can switch fighting styles at the start of your turn.

This might be a bit much, but limiting it to proficiency bonus should keep it from being "look up every fighting style in every book" in-play, and instead "have a prepared list".

So you can have Defensive, Interception, Archery, Dueling, Blind Fighting and Brawling styles prepared, and use whichever is best for a situation (by T4 that is).

Again, probably still too complicated for Champ which is a set-and-forget sort of subclass. One extra fighting style is indeed too weak, I'd say learn another two styles (so as a fighter they have three at this point), and they can swap one around during a short or long rest (for if they pick up a weapon they really want to use or are savvy and want to swap in a noncombat battlemaster maneuver for a talky/explory session)

[Yakk]

I want second wind to be something you use when significantly injured (which, past T1 in baseline 5e, isn't true), and wanted to tie some offence to it.

Improved Second Wind:
When you use Second Wind, you can make an attack with a weapon. You can use second wind as a reaction to taking damage; you regain HP after you take the damage. Second wind's healing is increased to (fighter level/2) d10, rounded up, plus your fighter level.

That is simpler. Removing the bonus action cost makes it more viable for 2WF builds (who lost an attack before).

[qube]

your BM isn't playing very good. Precise attack when missing by 1 or 2 or 3 is better than a riposte (1 is a guaranteed attack, 2 is 88% and 3 is 75% chance).
...
Also riposte goes off on your turn, not when it happens. riposte is a reaction on getting missed. I'm quite confident that this doesn't happen on your turn, but actually when it happens
" when missing by 1 or 2 or 3 " requires metagaming, or spending multiple rounds before you can correctly guage this.
and as riposte does a superioirty die bonus damage, it does seem quite the fair pick when damage is the name of the game.



Your python script has at least one bugit's not my python code - I can't run default python. I only had code starting from post #73. And my code calculated the length of combat. Because that's the real criteria.


Fixing everything except riposte, trying against 8 apes (so we aren't overwealmed by "the baseline fighter always wins")that's "I don't like the results of the test, so I change it to something I do like".

Objective testing doesn't work like that, mate. You might not like it - but in fact the test proves what Kazaryu pointed out


... because the fighter class is, in and of itself, really good.
~~ Kazaryu, post 13


4 apes (CR 1/2) apes aren't picked at random. They are a medium encounter for 2 characters of lvl 5 - and as such would be a decent gauge for the efficiency of a class.

8-9 on the other hand, are a deadly encounter, speaking of which ... do you actually realise what you conclude?


ie, 2 BM with 3 superiority dice each have a 4.5% wipe chance against 8 apes, while 2 champions have a 33.3% wipe chance.Class going nova does a better job in deadly encounter then a class that can't go nova.

You don't say?

[Yakk]

riposte is a reaction on getting missed. I'm quite confident that this doesn't happen on your turn, but actually when it happens
" when missing by 1 or 2 or 3 " requires metagaming, or spending multiple rounds before you can correctly guage this.
At some tables? Not at others. I have never seen a foe whose AC was a mystery after a round of being attacked.

By metagaming, do you mean "it is an ape and I rolled a 12 and it missed; it probably doesn't have plate AC?" Because that is what you need round 1. By round 2 someone has missed with a 13 and hit with a 15 so you know the creatures AC within 1 point, if the DM.doesn't say it outright.


and as riposte does a superioirty die bonus damage, it does seem quite the fair pick when damage is the name of the game.

In the script riposte goes off on the riposte creature's next turn. If that creature dies before their turn, the riposte is lost.

I was pointing out an error in the script.

Turing misses into hits is very good damage wise. Better than most uses, and it really isn't hard.


it's not my python code - I can't run default python. I only had code starting from post #73. And my code calculated the length of combat. Because that's the real criteria.

that's "I don't like the results of the test, so I change it to something I do like".
Huh? I found what appeared to be bugs in the script. I described the bugs. I then addressed them by changing the script and described my results.

Objective testing doesn't work like that, mate. You might not like it - but in fact the test proves what Kazaryu pointed out
No, a single experiment proves nothing in general?


... because the fighter class is, in and of itself, really good.
~~ Kazaryu, post 13
"No deaths on a medium encounter usually" is not "really good".

To use deaths as a metric, you should up to hard/seadly.


4 apes (CR 1/2) apes aren't picked at random. They are a medium encounter for 2 characters of lvl 5 - and as such would be a decent gauge for the efficiency of a class.
Medium encounter survical or failure will tell you if the PC is incompetent.


8-9 on the other hand, are a deadly encounter, speaking of which ... do you actually realise what you conclude?

Class going nova does a better job in deadly encounter then a class that can't go nova.

You don't say?
The 1 SD BM outperformed the champion on deadly encounters. 2 and 3 did even better. I didn't even test a 4 SD BM.

That isn't nova. (Max of) 1 SD per encounter sustained effort on a BM.

BM outperforms Champion on sustained fights without optimization and with brain-dead use of SD dice. And can nova. And can optimize better.

Yes, in a fight were a no subclass fighter wins easily, the champiom and BM also win easily. The BM still does better than the champion.

Distinguishing the champion from no subclass is harder than distinguishing the champion from the BM.

And I get it. You are just someone wrong on the internet upset with me for whatever reason. Feel free to use the script fixes I provided to improve your model.

The Fullmetal Mod: Errant code removed.

[loki_ragnarock]

I've been thinking about the original idea in the OP's link. I have to say... there's something about the Second Wind tie in that I really, really like as a thing for Champion. It's characterful, and does a great job of providing the Champion with a mechanical identity; this is the tough guy subclass, the guy who just won't quit. It's a feature in standard Champion, but doesn't actually manifest until level friggan 18, which is too late to really use as a standard identity.
I like that *alot*. I also like that it provides an alternative identity; a fighter that endures is different from a fighter that deals beaucoup damage. I also like that - with some different implementation - it could really serve to keep things simple by referencing abilities that already exist on the fighter chassis. And while I understand there's an optimization bias against endurance in favor of offense, it's still a pretty cool niche.

I really like that as a core idea, though; champion through the lens of the dude who just won't quit when the going gets tough. So here's how I'd change it, acknowledging it's mostly just using a bunch of the ideas presented in the thread, and also acknowledging that it might *still* be over tuned:

Improved Critical: At third level our weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20. In addition, when you score a critical hit you may spend your Second Wind as part of that attack. If you have no second wind available, on scoring a critical hit it immediately refreshes as if you'd taken a short rest.

This becomes a modest increase in damage output, but a potentially larger defensive input. It's simple, requires little math, and doesn't do much but toggle the on/off switch for second wind. It also leans into being a fighter less dependent on short rests; the more rounds of fighting between short rests, the more likely the Champion is to gain some of the benefits of a short rest, anyway. Leans into endurance as the model, and early enough in the progression that it serves as a foundational vision of the archetype.
The original version had the ability regeneration side of it later in the progression, but I think it's fine to move up for a couple or reasons:
(1) Establishes identity early. (2) Is lower impact at lower levels where the hp gain is most generous because fewer attacks available to the fighter means it'll happen less often, but scales in frequency as they progress as a fighter where any one use of second wind might be less impactful. This allows the higher level Champion to compensate through *volume* what was a generous amount of hitpoints one use regained at low level . (3) Sure, people might want to multiclass a dip for the increased crit range, but that second wind is tied specifically to fighter levels means the peak gain is going to be fighters.

Remarkable Athlete: At third level, you may add half your proficiency modifier (round up) to any Str, Dex, or Con checks that don't already include it. Further, your speed increases by 10'.

Why move it up? Precedent. Battlemaster, Arcane Archer, Cavalier, Samurai all gets a skill thingy at 3. Eldritch Knight, Echo Knight, Rune Knight Psi Kn... Warrior are all loaded up with features at level 3. The odd men out? The Champion and the Banneret, the two subclasses widely regarded as the worst. Simply moving the skill bonus to level three makes it match up with the larger fighter design space.
Why did I add some movement? It's useful, simple, and way less fiddly than the original jumping stuff. Why did I leave the half proficiency thing? It's useful, simple, and widely applicable; exactly the sort of thing you want from a simple class. It also leaves room for more free-form play; less, "I'd like to make an athletics check" and more "I'd like to do this specific heroic thing, what do I roll?"

Third Wind: At 7th level, you may use your Second Wind an additional time per short rest, and this additional second wind can also be regained when you critically hit with an attack. Additionally, when you use your Second Wind as a bonus action, you may make a weapon attack as part of that bonus action.

Again, a defensive/offensive boost, with the offensive boost emphasized. Two bonus action attacks/short rest, + however many recharges you produce randomly in the day isn't too outlandish. Synergizes with the increased crit range by increasing total number of attacks, serves to boost the image of the guy that just won't quit. Is also dead simple; you get a second on/off toggle for Second Wind, and you get to make the same attack you normally would - using the same line on the character sheet you'd use for your regular attack - when you use it. Concepts players should understand pretty well.

Champion's Ability Score Improvement: At 10th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. Like a normal ability score increase, you may instead take a feat. Unlike a normal ability score increase, you may increase an ability score past 20. Any future Ability Score Increases for The Champion are no longer capped at a score of 20.

With the advent of Tasha's Fighting Initiate feat, level 10 for the Champion is just an ASI that's been predetermined for you. The feat has undermined the Champion's unique ability to take multiple fighting styles. So, with that in mind, the simplest thing to do is to just decouple from the fighting style entirely default back to being an unchosen ASI; an ASI is dead simple, or as complicated as you'd like it to be if you want to search for feats. But for a little extra spice, let the Champion do what nobody else can; they can be the strongest, the toughest, the quickest, heck, even the smartest if they want to. It retains simplicity; there's no reason to stop dumping your ASIs into strength or constitution and figure out what third stat you're going to start pumping come higher level play. And it gives the Champion something unique in addition to something simple; while this could be used to give a Champion with a 20 strength at 9th level a 28 strength at very high level for someone who just dumps every additional viable ASI into strength... that doesn't strike me as particularly bad as a unique niche for someone who decided to ultra specialize throughout their career and into high level, and probably they just saved themselves an attunement slot for the trouble.
Sigfried and Hercules were Champions under this model, I suppose. But it reinforces the name by making them *the* standard for whatever metric; they are *the* Champion. It's applied at a high enough level that outrageous multi-class abuses are of little (less?) concern. And, crucially, they can use it to get another fighting style if they really, really want to, same as anyone else.

Superior Critical: At 15th level, weapon attacks score a critical hit on an 18-20. In addition, when you critically hit you immediately gain an additional daily use of your Indomitable feature. Further, when using the Indomitable feature, you may use two uses of the feature to reroll the saving throw with advantage. Any additional daily Indomitable uses expire after your next long rest.

More crits, additional recharge mechanism, and an additional means to keep the Champion in the fight. Simple, fairly straight forward, powerful. Potentially too much in one feature, shoving in a nova save ability? Maybe moving the "reroll with advantage" mechanic to Survivor is more fitting?

Survivor: At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

I don't really feel a need to mess about with Survivor. It's a solid ability for a guy on a long adventuring day looking to make those hit dice last. Though, again, moving the reroll with advantage mechanic might make the most thematic sense being moved here.


So in the end it's a subclass for the toughest, grittiest fighters of them all that (mostly) leans on the basics of the fighter chassis. It mostly retains simplicity, doesn't even try to be better at dealing damage than a Battlemaster, and fulfills a unique fighter niche by leaning into being the fighter's fighter.

[JNAProductions]

I don't think people are arguing that Champion is BETTER than Battlemaster. But that a Champion Fighter is a perfectly fine contributor to the party's success.

Also, Riposte happens off-turn, unless you get attacked and missed on YOUR turn.

[qube]

And I get it. You are just someone wrong on the internet upset with me for whatever reason. Feel free to use the script fixes I provided to improve your model.:smallconfused: Why would I be upset? Time and time again you display you haven't actually read the thread, and use bid's data from the start of the discussion.


You to me: In the script riposte goes off on the riposte creature's next turn. If that creature dies before their turn, the riposte is lost.
Me, post 28, annotating bid's code: ## if the target gets critted (or gets hit, ref code further in the line), the target uses his SD (if he has one) and, get an extra attack when it's his turn.
sound familiar?
Or this:

You, to me: No, a single experiment proves nothing in general?
Me to bid, Post 69: single level, single monster, single encounter is not statisical evidence: it's anectodal evidence.
Me, Post 73: tweeking to fight 4, 5 or 6 apes
Me, Post 75: addded 1,2 or 3 animated armors
Me, Post 118: added bear, animate armors, awakend tree, manticore
Me, Post 123: added ettin and barbed devil

In fact, the thread even notes how the base class does 10 average damage and 15 crit damage - while the ape happen to have 19 hp.

Considering a crit of the BM does 23 damage, apes happen to have a better amount of hp for BM (1 average crit kills) then for the champ (requires 2 succesful average damage attacks (regardless of crit or hit))* .

Jee wizz, Yakk, it's almost as though I agree a single experiment proves nothing in general.,

* with a rapier. Because the comparison uses equal loadouts. I hear you complainnig the battlemaster isn't doing the maximum optimized build, including trying to justify metagaming ... but you stay eerily quite about the fact we're using d8 weapons, and not 2d6 weapons.

Likewise without things like a margin of error or confidence interval, all you've shown is that the battlemaster performs better against apes - which was not something that was disputed. To quote the thread you didn't read

4 apes
1.07 to 3.54 (avr 2.31) // raw
1.03 to 3.50 (avr 2.27) // champion
0.82 to 3.23 (avr 2.02) // SD1 BM
0.84 to 3.11 (avr 1.98) // SD2 BM
0.83 to 3.10 (avr 1.97) // SD 4 BM
What was pointed out, was that the champion is sufficient. The chaos of the die (rolling good or bad) will have a significantly higher impact then the class features.


To use deaths as a metric, you should up to hard/seadly.Yes. But considering TPK is not a realistic metric - on account of those things ending the campaign thus most encounters aren't designed that way - that's not a good excuse to try and tweek the scenario.

[kazaryu]

"No deaths on a medium encounter usually" is not "really good".

To use deaths as a metric, you should up to hard/seadly. so a couple things:
first: a class without a subclass when it should have one (i.e. missing a major combat feature) performing that well in an encounter designed for characters that have that feature is, in fact, really good. it means that even without the subcalss features they should have, the fighter base class is at least viable. Thats really good for a base class. that is lacking core features.

second: you've, likely inadvertantly, taken what i said out of context. where the quote was pulled from: my point was that you can play a champion fighter, and do quite a bit, but thats almost entirely due to being a fighter, and having the toys that being a fighter gives you. (extra ASI's, action surge, second win, extra attacks as you level, etc.) but that doesn't make the champion a good subclass. the whole point was to point out that the subclass itself barely improves the base fighter chassis from a numerical standpoint.





BM outperforms Champion on sustained fights without optimization and with brain-dead use of SD dice. And can nova. And can optimize better.


technically this depends on how you define 'sustained'. eventually the champion will catch up, usually, however, there aren't enough rounds of combat before a short rest for the champion to catch up, because the champions benefits are so miniscule.

[Yakk]

the whole point was to point out that the subclass itself barely improves the base fighter chassis from a numerical standpoint.
Yes, that is what I said? Baseline vs Champ is harder to distinguish between than Champ vs 1 SD BM.



technically this depends on how you define 'sustained'. eventually the champion will catch up, usually, however, there aren't enough rounds of combat before a short rest for the champion to catch up, because the champions benefits are so miniscule.

It takes a ridiculously long set of fights for the Champion to catch up to the BM.

It is 0.3 ish damage per round from Champ. Saving SD for crits is 9 damage per die, so 36 damage per short rest. So, over 100 rounds of combat between short rests for the Champion to have a chance of matching BM damage output. (Less at level 5, due to 2 attacks).

And as I noted, crit fish use of SD is not top efficiency.

At high levels, bigger crits (from stuff like flametongue), more attacks, and 18+ range makes the gap much smaller, even against BM additional and larger dice.

L20 BM crit fishing is 13*6 or 78 damage per short rest. L20 Champion is getting +1.4 per attack (twice that with advantage); with 4 attacks this is 5.6 per round, so only 14 rounds (instead of 50+) to catch up to BM, a plausible adventuring pace, and at this point the Champion has other useful toys.

Which is the core of my thesis. The champion most needs an upgrade in T1; adding offence later is patching a leak long after the tire has been running flat for miles.

The bare minimum should be the Champion matches a tactically void BM build.