optimizing for party luck

[Dimers]

What build best enhances the entire party's luck? Including adding to rolls (bless, guidance, paladin aura, etc), allowing re-rolls, substituting rolls, granting advantage and anything else that might be fluffed as luck.

What can't really be fluffed as luck but is still great to have for party-wide benefits?

The character doesn't have to be personally effective as long as the party benefit is strong enough, so feel free to ignore ASIs in place of lucky-feeling feats.

I don't have much book access normally but I currently have TCoE and XGtE checked out from the library. For stuff from other sources, it'd be helpful if you could describe the 'lucky' mechanics, please.

Backstory: Coming from the paradigm of 3.X and 4e, bounded accuracy feels very weird to me beyond the lowest levels. It feels impossible to make a character who's really good at anything, certainly not to the degree I'm accustomed to. So when I play 5e, it's best to force myself out of the mindset that I'm supposed to excel somehow. But if my character isn't great at anything, why would a party want them to tag along? Maybe because they make everyone else better at what they do? (I recognize that I'm still trying to optimize here, but it'll still be better for my headspace if the thing I'm optimizing for isn't personal excellence.)

[Kane0]

Lucky feat, being a Halfling especially with their racial feat, Bardic Inspiration, access to spells like Guidance, Bless and Silvery Barbs, Battlemaster maneuvers that add to Initiative and some skill checks, Divine & Wild Sorcerers, Fiend warlock, Diviner Wizard, Rune Knight fighter, Peace cleric, any way to get advantage on your rolls or reroll damage dice... theres quite a lot, you might want to specify what you want to play as first (race and/or class).

[Dimers]

you might want to specify what you want to play as first (race and/or class).

I was assuming halfling for the racial feat, but I was willing to be surprised if something else looks better. As for class, I'm wide open, but I'd prefer a build without a lot of dead levels, luck-wise. That probably means multiclassing ... ?

[Willowhelm]

This is a little confusing to me. You’re not really optimising for luck… really the opposite. You’re finding ways to avoid bad luck by having reliable options to add to the dice rolls.

That’s kind of… all the beneficial mechanics in the game?

I’m more “lucky” with proficiency in a skills, or expertise, or guidance, or enhanced ability etc etc.

I’m more “lucky” with a weapon with bigger damage dice and more attacks.

I’m more “lucky” when the npcs have been incapacitated with hypnotic pattern

(By the way it is defined in the OP at least)

Could you narrow it down a little?

For an individual character (not party) that focuses on being able to roll low and still do well… you might like this:

https://youtu.be/ofeTcIoZPOU

[animorte]

The Bard constantly buffing/nerfing for ally/enemy attacks rolls and what have you. Also Guidance and Enhance Ability sort of come across as essentially having some additional luck on your side. There's plenty other things that can be more or less combat based depending on exactly what type of flavor your taste buds desire.

[solidork]

A halfling diviner that takes Lucky and Bountiful Luck is a good place as far as doing things that manipulate luck while still mostly being a standard Wizard. Throw in Silvery Barbs and you'll have insane reroll capability.

It's quite possible to make characters that are very good at things. What do you want to be good at?

[Kane0]

Or if Wizard isnt your thing then probably a Halfling Bard of your choice, pick up the lucky feats and steal your choice of 'lucky' spells on top of sprinkling inspiration onto people.

Edit: and of course since you mentioned you're coming from a 3rd ed experience here's my customary heads up


- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- Attacking does not impede your ability to move (ie ‘Full Attack’) and you can in fact move between attacks if you have multiple.
- Attacks are classified oddly but they mostly boil down to a combination of [melee or ranged] and [weapon or spell]
- You cannot delay your turn, only ready an action.
- By default only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and -2s.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.

- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There are expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to in balancing short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.

- Concentration is a thing casters should learn well. Most buff, debuff and control spells need concentration, and you can only concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- There are relatively few permanent or near-permanent bonuses/buffs
- All casting is 'spontaneous', as in you don’t put individual spells into slots, you just have a collection of spells available to you and spell slots to fuel them with. Your spells will either be prepared or known based on class.
- High casting stat doesn’t give you additional spell slots, but does affect your spell attack bonus and spell DC (which is the same across all spell levels).
- Spells scale by spell slot rather than by caster level, which makes multiclassing considerably more friendly for casters
- Cantrips are notable now, offering viable damage output based on PC level not caster level
- There is a rule that restricts how many levelled spells you can cast on your turn, but it’s… complicated.

- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Encounter design and challenge rating is also different. A CR 6 enemy is an easy (little resource expenditure & low chance of falling) challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not an easy challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters during an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

[stoutstien]

Don't overlook the impact that advantage and disadvantage have. If you get a handle on that you will be halfway there. The extra dice rolls from lucky, portent, and being a halfling are nice but adv/dis is the bread n butter. If you're coming from a different edition advantage and disadvantage are taking the place of the majority of static bonuses.

As far as bounded accuracy goes it's a common misconception on what is exactly designed to do. Nothing about it prevents characters from getting really good at certain things. All it does is avoid the necessity of hyper specialization to remain relevant and that means the DM doesn't need to make assumptions when setting up the game. You can have a fighter that starts with a 16 in their primary attack stat and never increases it and they will still be relevant at level 20. There are very few NPCs that have any ability to never hit or guarantee even the lowest save DCs is.

On the flip side it's a really powerful world building tool as well. You no longer have the issue where NPCs and PC have the ability to be scaled in/out of threat. With a large enough army you can potentially kill a ancient dragon even if only 1/20 if the arrows land. Great for keeping themes going in campaigns.

[Dimers]

This is a little confusing to me. You’re not really optimising for luck… really the opposite. You’re finding ways to avoid bad luck by having reliable options to add to the dice rolls.

Right, optimizing for things that can be fluffed as "good luck" for the team, by improving dice rolls. Or by penalizing enemy attacks, if it can reasonably be described as the target just being lucky. Not by penalizing enemy saves, though, since that's the enemy being unlucky instead of the party being lucky.


I’m more “lucky” when the npcs have been incapacitated with hypnotic pattern

Not what I'm looking for. By that metric a fireball is just a burst of luck as well. It's much better fluffed as a burst of flame, especially considering that the DM may rule it lights things on fire. Just like the DM may rule that hypnotic pattern doesn't work in magical darkness. Whatever the effect is, it shouldn't be a stretch to describe it as positive luck on the PCs' side. That means stuff that directly manipulates hp or temp hp is out, since most gaming groups treat hp as meat rather than luck.


The Bard constantly buffing/nerfing for ally/enemy attacks rolls and what have you. Also Guidance and Enhance Ability sort of come across as essentially having some additional luck on your side.

Any particular bard subclass you'd recommend? I like Unfailing Inspiration from Eloquence for this theme, but the other early features don't particularly fit.


A halfling diviner that takes Lucky and Bountiful Luck is a good place as far as doing things that manipulate luck while still mostly being a standard Wizard. Throw in Silvery Barbs and you'll have insane reroll capability.

I've read about Silvery Barbs recently but I don't know what book it's in or what classes natively get access to it ... ?


It's quite possible to make characters that are very good at things. What do you want to be good at?

To the statement: Maaaaan, not by 3.X or 4e standards :smalltongue: I've looked in-depth at some builds posted on this site (including reviews, compliments and critiques) and I believe I understand what you mean by "very good", and it's just not the same. To the question: It's better for my enjoyment of the game if I don't try to focus on that. Expecting personal expertise has, in practice, poisoned my enjoyment of 5e games in the past, so I'd like to get away from it. Regardless, thanks for offering the help.


Don't overlook the impact that advantage and disadvantage have. If you get a handle on that you will be halfway there. The extra dice rolls from lucky, portent, and being a halfling are nice but adv/dis is the bread n butter. If you're coming from a different edition advantage and disadvantage are taking the place of the majority of static bonuses.

For advantage, one thing that springs to mind is wolf totem barbarian -- that can provide a lot of attack roll advantage if the party focuses fire. But considering that the best classes so far seem to be full casters (bard, wizard, maybe cleric for spells), I'm a bit leery of adding a feature that prevents casting or concentration. IIRC there's a rogue subclass that can Help as a bonus action, and that might fit the bill. What recommendations do you have for other features/spells that can add a lot of advantage? Or disadvantage to enemy attacks?

[solidork]

I've read about Silvery Barbs recently but I don't know what book it's in or what classes natively get access to it ... ?


Its in the Strixhaven book. Sorcerers, Wizards and Bards get it. I personally consider it overpowered as heck and wouldn't take it for that reason, but it kinda does exactly what you want.(Force someone to reroll a success and grant advantage to an ally)

[Willowhelm]

granting advantage and anything else that might be fluffed as luck.

What can't really be fluffed as luck but is still great to have for party-wide benefits?



Not what I'm looking for. By that metric a fireball is just a burst of luck as well. It's much better fluffed as a burst of flame, especially considering that the DM may rule it lights things on fire. Just like the DM may rule that hypnotic pattern doesn't work in magical darkness. Whatever the effect is, it shouldn't be a stretch to describe it as positive luck on the PCs' side. That means stuff that directly manipulates hp or temp hp is out, since most gaming groups treat hp as meat rather than luck.

Do you see how the request in the first post is tricky to parse? Granting advantage. Anything that can be fluffed as luck. Also anything that can’t be fluffed as luck but is great for the party. (Eg hypnotic pattern).

You can grant advantage with darkness and blind fighting. Or with invisibility. Invisibility can be luck - they just happen to always look the other way or blink just as they look where you are. Darkness is hard, but blind fighting is easy. The combination can therefore be “lucky”.

But you don’t want things like hypnotic pattern. And your “refluffing as luck” is limited by the vision you have… so that’s why I was asking for clarification on what, out of all the beneficial mechanics out there, you actually want.

If I can pick up any weapon that falls into my hands and be proficient with it… that can be fluffed as just getting lucky. So being a class with all martial weapons is fluffable as lucky. Picking up tavern brawler as a feat can be refluffed as lucky - now it’s any random item that I flail and grab.

I wouldn’t suggest fireball but as you used it as an example of something that can’t be refluffed as lucky… with the DMs buy in it can. This world has spontaneous wild magic, this world has gas pockets which have a chance to be triggered by sparks from fighting or static electricity or… any number of things. It just seems to happen a lot around you for some reason.

“Refluffing as luck” is very very broad.

“Class features that manipulate advantage/disadvantage” is narrow.

“As many stackable bonuses to <type of roll>” is narrow.

“Spells but only with no visual effects” or “spells I can use subtle meta magic on” for example.

Somewhere in between is what you’re after. Can you clarify what that is?

I had a thread a while back asking for help trying to make a character that wasn’t obviously an adventurer. One of the approaches was someone who just happened to have a lot of lucky things happen around them. That might be relevant:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620892-Help-building-playing-an-quot-Ordinary-quot-adventurer&p=24766306#post24766306

For your vision are they actively and obviously manipulating luck around them or is this just stuff that happens while they’re around?

[Frogreaver]

Do you see how the request in the first post is tricky to parse? Granting advantage. Anything that can be fluffed as luck. Also anything that can’t be fluffed as luck but is great for the party. (Eg hypnotic pattern).

You can grant advantage with darkness and blind fighting. Or with invisibility. Invisibility can be luck - they just happen to always look the other way or blink just as they look where you are. Darkness is hard, but blind fighting is easy. The combination can therefore be “lucky”.

But you don’t want things like hypnotic pattern. And your “refluffing as luck” is limited by the vision you have… so that’s why I was asking for clarification on what, out of all the beneficial mechanics out there, you actually want.

If I can pick up any weapon that falls into my hands and be proficient with it… that can be fluffed as just getting lucky. So being a class with all martial weapons is fluffable as lucky. Picking up tavern brawler as a feat can be refluffed as lucky - now it’s any random item that I flail and grab.

I wouldn’t suggest fireball but as you used it as an example of something that can’t be refluffed as lucky… with the DMs buy in it can. This world has spontaneous wild magic, this world has gas pockets which have a chance to be triggered by sparks from fighting or static electricity or… any number of things. It just seems to happen a lot around you for some reason.

“Refluffing as luck” is very very broad.

“Class features that manipulate advantage/disadvantage” is narrow.

“As many stackable bonuses to <type of roll>” is narrow.

“Spells but only with no visual effects” or “spells I can use subtle meta magic on” for example.

Somewhere in between is what you’re after. Can you clarify what that is?

I had a thread a while back asking for help trying to make a character that wasn’t obviously an adventurer. One of the approaches was someone who just happened to have a lot of lucky things happen around them. That might be relevant:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620892-Help-building-playing-an-quot-Ordinary-quot-adventurer&p=24766306#post24766306

For your vision are they actively and obviously manipulating luck around them or is this just stuff that happens while they’re around?

I think you are over complicating this.

To answer the OP, probably peace cleric 1, bard X. Bless, guidance, bardic inspiration, silvery barbs. You could have a very supportive character this way mostly geared toward boosting die rolls and providing rerolls.

[Willowhelm]

To the statement: Maaaaan, not by 3.X or 4e standards :smalltongue: I've looked in-depth at some builds posted on this site (including reviews, compliments and critiques) and I believe I understand what you mean by "very good", and it's just not the same. To the question: It's better for my enjoyment of the game if I don't try to focus on that. Expecting personal expertise has, in practice, poisoned my enjoyment of 5e games in the past, so I'd like to get away from it. Regardless, thanks for offering the help.


Just on this… bear in mind that for 5e if your character is exceptional at something and wouldn’t fail - they can just do it. The DM shouldn’t ask for an ability check if the task is trivial or impossible.

There was a thread a while back about a DM having trouble challenging their party because they had found a way to stack so many bonuses on everything that he couldn’t hit them, couldn’t do damage, and they passed every ability check etc.

So depending on what “thing” you’re trying to be “very good” at it is absolutely possible to create a character that does not fail at that thing. This may not be true for all things but that’s why you were asked what “things” you want to be good at.

Maybe it is for a different thread to this one, but don’t throw out your vision because the way to achieve it is different in 5e. I respect your choice to avoid that area if 5e doesn’t match up to your expectations but you can at least still theorycraft some stuff on the forums to see if it is possible. Bounded accuracy makes some things different but it also means once you’ve broken it - it’s very broken.


I think you are over complicating this.

Almost certainly. But the OP did ask for the best. They didn’t ask “what’s a decent support build?” so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Nefariis]

A character that I've played in two different short quests that I absolutely loved was a Halfing Diviner 2 / Lore Bard X with bountiful luck.

He is the absolute definition of a good luck charm.

Halfling Luck - When you roll a 1 on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you can reroll the die.

Bountiful Luck - When an ally you can see within 30 feet of you rolls a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to let the ally reroll the die.

Portent - When you finish a long rest, roll two d20s and record the numbers rolled. You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls.

Bardic Inspiration - Use a bonus action on your turn, that creature gains one Bardic Inspiration die, a d6 that can be added the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw

Cutting Words - When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to expend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration to subtract a d6 from their roll.


What lucky means to me is the ability to change fate and predetermined outcomes (knowingly or unknowingly), and with this build, you are constantly bending the world around you to benefit you. How I roll played him was that I had a lucky clover in my pocket - so I wasn't actually using cutting words, portent, or giving out bardic inspirations (even though I was) - I was just really lucky person to be around all the time.


no one in your party can critically fail
you can auto save or force an auto miss twice a day (portent)
you can give people boosts or force monsters to make harder attacks/checks (bard)
you are a full caster
expertise Athletics makes you one of the best grapplers in any campaign (especially with cutting words!)
wizard levels = SCAG cantrips and find familiar
access to Silvery Barbs


I did play with Lucky on this build on one of the quests and I was not a huge fan - the extra +2 cha for spells and an extra Bardic Inspiration was a tough hit for only marginal shenanigans. Maybe at later levels (after 20 CHA), picking up lucky would be worth the ASI investment.


This is a very playable build and everyone at the table will love you when you force the BBEG to miss them with an attack, you force the BBEG to fail a save, and or any time they roll a 1.

[Kane0]

Peace Cleric 1: Use your action to hand out +1d4 recurring 'luck' to multiple allies
Bless spell: Use your action to hand out +1d4 recurring 'luck' to multiple allies
Bard 1+: Use your Bonus action to hand out +1d6 'luck' to one ally
Halfling Bountiful Luck: Use your reaction to allow ally to reroll a 1
Silvery Barbs spell: Use your reaction to have a creature that made a successful roll reroll, then grant advantage to someone of your choice
Halfling luck: reroll 1s, no action
Doviner wizard 2: roll two d20s and save the results to declare later, no action

Combine those in any way you choose that fills up your action usage and you're good to go. Just remember that when youre multiclassing that delays your feats.

[Dimers]

Thanks for the suggestions and explanations, folks. :smallsmile:


Do you see how the request in the first post is tricky to parse? Granting advantage. Anything that can be fluffed as luck. Also anything that can’t be fluffed as luck but is great for the party. (Eg hypnotic pattern).

I'd forgotten I put that "can't be fluffed as luck" line in the OP. Clearly it proved to be a tactical error.


Somewhere in between is what you’re after. Can you clarify what that is?

Ehhh ... not without more effort than I'm willing to put into this concept at the current time, given that I've already collected a pretty large number of suggestions that match what I had in mind (but failed to express precisely).


I had a thread a while back asking for help trying to make a character that wasn’t obviously an adventurer. One of the approaches was someone who just happened to have a lot of lucky things happen around them. That might be relevant:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620892-Help-building-playing-an-quot-Ordinary-quot-adventurer&p=24766306#post24766306

Yep, some of that definitely works too. Thanks for the link. :smallsmile:

[RogueJK]

Halfling Peace Cleric 1 -> Lore Bard X
STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 9
WIS 13
CHA 15+2

Second Chance Feat (+1 CHA) at Bard 4
Lucky Feat at Bard 8
Bountiful Luck Feat at Bard 12

Plus the following "luck" abilities/spells to assist the party:
Emboldening Bond
Bless
Guidance
Bardic Inspiration
Cutting Words
Silvery Barbs
And access to a large number of spells with which to generate Advantage/Disadvantage, or otherwise boost your allies or hinder your enemies, plus you can poach even more using Magical Secrets.

You can take Find Familiar as a Magical Secret at Lore Bard 6, pick the Owl, and have your familiar fly around the battlefield acting as a "good luck charm" for one ally per turn. (Using the Help action to grant the ally Advantage on an attack roll.)


If you roll well for stats and can swing a 13+ INT, you could also consider taking 2 levels of Divination Wizard after Bard 5 or 6. This will get you 2x Portent rolls to use per day, and also native access to Find Familiar, but will also delay your Bard levels. So it's not all that optimal, especially since you still have plenty of "luck" bonuses/rerolls anyway.