Order of feats/ASIS

[Hiro Quester]

Planning out advancement for my frontline duelist half-elf swords bard/hexblade. Currently a level 1 bard. Thinking about what order to take feats or ASIs in.

Half elf, so starting with 17 CHA. 16 dex and con.

Plan A: Bard 1/ Hexblade 5/ Bard 2-6/…
Plan B: Bard 1/ Hexblade 1/ Bard 2-6/ Hexblade2-3/ …

ending up at something like
bard 17 /hex 3 (less likely, because eldrich smite at hex 5)
bard 15/hex 5 ( most likely, I think)
bard 6 /hex 14
bard 8 /hex 12
or bard 5/hex 15
bard 3 /hex 17 (less likely, short rest BI will be a useful resource)

Which class gets the rest of the build will depend on how the game progresses. It will depend on my relationship with my patron, the campaign, and how party roles sort out, etc.

the idea is to be at the front line, in half plate and shield, with sword as arcane focus, critfishing with elven accuracy and hexblade’s curse, and pumping short rest recovery resources (eldritch smite, sword flourishes) into crits. Defensive flourish and shield for AC. But it would also work with a longbow after Hex 3 (in which case sharpshooter might also be on the table)

feats will be at levels 5, 9, 13-14, 17-18ish.



Elven accuracy pumps CHA to 18 and rolls an extra d20 when I have advantage on attack rolls.
Warcaster for advantage on concentration saves, and booming blade OAs.
+2 CHA to get casting and melee attack ability to 20.


So what order should I take those?

For the first feat, at level 5 or 6, I’m thinking Warcaster first, since a lot of my better spells for lower levels are Concentration. Most of the martial abilities are not completely online until after levels 7-8 or so.

But elven accuracy first gets a higher CA bonus. That and warcaster, delays 20 CHA until levels 13-14.

EA then +2 cha gets CHA TO 20. But warcaster comes in very late.

I have never played a martial caster before. Advice from those who have would be most welcome, please and thank you.

[diplomancer]

I'd start with Hexblade, Wis saves proficiency Is better than Dex.

If the DM's strict about spellcasting components, War Caster is a must, so grab that first; otherwise Elven Accuracy goes first. Though you do want to max your Cha, you don't have to rush, I'd wait to get WarCaster and Elven Accuracy first.

[Hiro Quester]

I already started with bard, for roleplaying reasons. (hexblade patron is going to have something to do with his desire for fame and fortune; possibly a midnight meeting a crossroads somewhere.)

Plus for roleplaying reasons he has an 8 INT and WIS (which I think will be a fun challenge for me to play). He is easily confused and makes impulsive decisions. So while shoring up WIS saves might be good from an optimization standpoint, the kind of bard who takes a deal with a hexblade patron isn't one with good WIS saves.

Hmmm... I had not considered that aspect of war caster. But thinking about it, after Bard 3, bard spells can use your weapon as arcane focus. And after pact of the blade, at Hex 3, this applies to warlock spells too.

So the ability of war caster to enable you to perform somatic components of a spell while using weapon and shield would only be an advantage for only some spells, and only for a few levels. After bard 3 or hex 3 (4th level) the weapon is an arcane focus for half my spells and can be used for somatic and material components, and after both (maybe 7th level or so), the weapon is an arcane focus for all spells.

So Elven Accuracy, in enabling more successful hits and crits when I have advantage, and also raising my casting and combat ability does seem the logical first choice.

Then warcaster, for better concentration, and to enable booming blade for Opportunity Attacks. Or maybe sharpshooter if I'm focussing on ranged combat with a longbow (staying out of melee is another way to improve my ability to concentrate). +10 damage along with a reliable way of ensuring hits from EA sounds useful.

Then +2 CHA at level 13-14 or so.

How does that sound?

[diplomancer]

I already started with bard, for roleplaying reasons. (hexblade patron is going to have something to do with his desire for fame and fortune; possibly a midnight meeting a crossroads somewhere.)

Plus for roleplaying reasons he has an 8 INT and WIS (which I think will be a fun challenge for me to play). He is easily confused and makes impulsive decisions. So while shoring up WIS saves might be good from an optimization standpoint, the kind of bard who takes a deal with a hexblade patron isn't one with good WIS saves.

Hmmm... I had not considered that aspect of war caster. But thinking about it, after Bard 3, bard spells can use your weapon as arcane focus. And after pact of the blade, at Hex 3, this applies to warlock spells too.

So the ability of war caster to enable you to perform somatic components of a spell while using weapon and shield would only be an advantage for only some spells, and only for a few levels. After bard 3 or hex 3 (4th level) the weapon is an arcane focus for half my spells and can be used for somatic and material components, and after both (maybe 7th level or so), the weapon is an arcane focus for all spells.

So Elven Accuracy, in enabling more successful hits and crits when I have advantage, and also raising my casting and combat ability does seem the logical first choice.

Then warcaster, for better concentration, and to enable booming blade for Opportunity Attacks. Or maybe sharpshooter if I'm focussing on ranged combat with a longbow (staying out of melee is another way to improve my ability to concentrate). +10 damage along with a reliable way of ensuring hits from EA sounds useful.

Then +2 CHA at level 13-14 or so.

How does that sound?

It's a good plan, but remember that the Shield spell is V,S only, which means that your weapon being your focus does not help. But also as I've said, though many people talk about this part of Warcaster, I've still not met a DM who's a stickler for those rules (which I think are terrible rules anyway).

So what I'd do is to literally get Hexblade at level 2 and then try to cast Shield once I have Bard 3 (or Hexblade 3). If the DM said "you can't do that without Warcaster", I'd get Warcaster next; otherwise grab Elven Accuracy first.

[RogueJK]

Unless your DM is a stickler for the spell components, I wouldn't bother with Warcaster.

You can get Advantage on your Concentration checks using the Eldritch Mind invocation from your Warlock levels.

So if you don't need Warcaster's Concentration Advantage or spell component streamlining, the ability to do Booming Blade OAs is handy but not worth an entire ASI. In that case, go Elven Accuracy first, then +2 CHA next, followed by something like Inspiring Leader.


As for level progression, since you're at Bard 1, I'd recommend going Bard 1/Hexblade 1 next. Then go to Hexblade 1/Swords Bard 6. Then Swords Bard 6/Hexblade 5, since you're wanting to access Eldritch Smite. Then decide from there if you want to go more Bard (which you likely do), or take more Warlock levels.

This gets you Elven Accuracy for 18 CHA at Level 5 (Bard 4/Warlock 1). Extra Attack at Level 7 (Bard 6/Warlock 1), using Booming Blade to tide you over at Levels 5 and 6. Advantage on Concentration from Eldritch Mind at Level 8 (Bard 6/Warlock 2). 20 CHA by Level 10 (Bard 6/Warlock 4). And Inspiring Leader by Level 13 or 14 (Bard 8/Warlock 5 or Bard 6/Warlock 8).


If your DM insists on Warcaster, you can take that at Level 5 for your Bard 4 ASI. Then take Elven Accuracy at Level 10 as your Warlock 4 ASI, with it still coming online just before you access Eldritch Smite. Then +2 CHA at Level 13/14 for your Bard 8 or Warlock 8 ASI.

[Hiro Quester]

It's a good plan, but remember that the Shield spell is V,S only, which means that your weapon being your focus does not help.

I don't see that as a problem.




Somatic (S)
...If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures....

Material (M)
...A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
That seems to entail that you perform somatic components with the same hand that is holding an arcane focus, even when the arcane focus is not a needed component such as a VS shield spell.

So somatic movements can be made by the hand that is holding components or arcane focus (in this case your weapon).

EDIT:


You can get Advantage on your Concentration checks using the Eldritch Mind invocation from your Warlock levels.
That is an excellent point. Improved Pact Weapon, and Eldrich Mind from Hex 2, I'd have what I need to tide me over. And I could switch it out later for other invocations if I took Warcaster later on.

FURTHER EDIT:
Eldrich Mind's advantage on concentration saves might be an excellent reason to go Bard 1/ Hex2 /Bard 2-6 /Hex 3-5. It would delay Elven Accuracy until level 6, but I would get one of the main advantages of warcaster, more reliable concentration, at level 3. That might be a reasonable trade-off.

At Bard1/Hex 2 I could take agonizing blast and eldrich mind invocations (for concentration and a semi-decent ranged attack for lower levels, with two beams at level 5) and then switch out AB for improved Pact Weapon at Bard6 /Hex 3, and with extra attack concentrate a bit more on Melee (with Booming Blade) or Longbow after that.

[diplomancer]

I don't see that as a problem.


That seems to entail that you perform somatic components with the same hand that is holding an arcane focus, even when the arcane focus is not a needed component such as a VS shield spell.

So somatic movements can be made by the hand that is holding components or arcane focus (in this case your weapon).

Well, what counts in the end is not what you see as a problem, but what your DM sees as a problem; and, for what it's worth, official Sage Advice does see it as a problem:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA165


All I'm saying here is: check with your DM, either by directly asking or by casting Shield and seeing if he objects.

[Hiro Quester]

Well, what counts in the end is not what you see as a problem, but what your DM sees as a problem; and, for what it's worth, official Sage Advice does see it as a problem:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA165


All I'm saying here is: check with your DM, either by directly asking or by casting Shield and seeing if he objects.
Oooh. I had not seen that Sage Advice. Yes. I'll check with DM about that.

It makes the shield spell impossible to use for martial classes using weapon and shield. Perhaps that limitation is the point.

[diplomancer]

Oooh. I had not seen that Sage Advice. Yes. I'll check with DM about that.

It makes the shield spell impossible to use for martial classes using weapon and shield. Perhaps that limitation is the point.

Not impossible; but it does make it require the War Caster feat to be able to cast it.

[Hiro Quester]

DM confirmed that at his table, shield spell will work with weapon and shield in hand.

And we just started level two in our game yesterday (bard 1/hex 1). So I could ask him how shield spell would work before learning the spell.

BTW, Hex spell is awesome for a dungeon crawl, switching it to a new target each encounter over the course of an hour. That was very fun. I’m going to enjoy this character.

And my hexblade patron involves my best friend, who was killed as part of my backstory. His spirit and his family’s elven longsword are now helping me. If that stays a positive relationship, I might stay in hexblade for a longer time.

So I’ll take hexblade 2 next level, and learn Eldrich mind invocation. Then I can put off warcaster for a while, and take elven accuracy as the first feat, then +cha next.

Thanks for helping me figure this out Y’all!