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Greywander
2022-04-15, 08:20 PM
I was inspired by this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?644795-Champion-fighter-fixed-(not-my-idea)-Please-rate-how-good-bad-it-is) to write up a simple revision of the Champion fighter subclass. My goals here are to acknowledge that the Champion isn't quite as powerful as most other fighter subclasses (though I think this is partially down to fewer decisions to be made, meaning less opportunities to optimize) while also respecting the Champion as the "noob class" designed to be simple and easy to use for new players. With this in mind, I want to mostly stick to what's already there and just make the Champion a bit stronger while also keeping them simple and straightforward.

Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lBWG7GkotlAfpXTJX7_HUxqtb5c7A3sOTHCqoWmpLLM/edit?usp=sharing

Forum-quotable version:


Anything in blue is an addition/modification.

Improved Critical
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

In addition, whenever you score a critical hit, you deal additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus.

Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 3rd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.

Mythical Athlete
Once you reach 7th level, your carry weight is doubled, your jump distance is doubled, and your speed increases by 5 feet.

Your athletic conditioning also causes you to gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws. If you already have this proficiency, you instead gain proficiency in another saving throw of your choice.

Fighting Mastery
At 10th level, you master every fighting style found on page 72 of the Player’s Handbook, gaining the benefits of all of them at once. If you already know one of those fighting styles, you may replace it with a different fighting style available to fighters. (Formerly gave every fighting style.)

In addition, you can draw or sheathe a weapon as part of making an attack with that weapon.

Superior Critical
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

Survivor
At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

Alright, so lets go over this. Improved Critical adds a bit of extra damage to your crits. This scales as you level, meaning that no additional bonus is needed for Superior Critical. This makes the crit bonus a bit more significant of a damage boost, closing the gap with more optimized builds.

For Remarkable Athlete, I streamlined the jump bonus and made it stronger, and added a bonus to carry weight and move speed. This should go a long way toward making your character actually feel more athletic and physically fit than other characters. For good measure, you get DEX save proficiency (compare to the Samurai), giving you proficiency with all physical saves. Remarkable Athlete is now an actually strong feature, maybe even stronger than the 7th level features of other fighter subclasses.

Additional Fighting Style was replaced with Fighting Mastery. So, the issue is that any time you're given a choice of several options, you'll always take the best choice first, so getting to choose a second choice means getting a worse benefit. Plus, if we imagine this subclass is for new players, then having to choose between options can be difficult (though by this level, hopefully not). We can kill two birds with one stone by simply giving all fighting styles, which is both a significant buff to the feature and removes the need to make a difficult choice. This isn't as strong as you might think; it mostly comes down to always having Defense + Blind Fighting + whichever weapon style applies to your current weapon. For good measure, we also make it easier to draw and sheathe weapons, which again makes it easier for new players, and also allows you to get the most benefit out of all your new fighting styles.

Survivor is already pretty strong, the problem is that most campaigns don't get to this point, so you never get the Champion's best feature. This feature doesn't need any buff or tweak, we just needed to make the Champion more appealing all the way leading up to this point. Once you get here, you should have a pretty solid fighter already.

What do you think? I kind of expect to get the most pushback on Fighting Mastery, and admittedly it will become stronger and stronger as new fighting styles are released, particularly fighting styles that can be more easily used simultaneously with other fighting styles, e.g. styles like Defense, Blind Fighting, or Interception.

Kane0
2022-04-15, 08:30 PM
Given that you have three portions happening at the level 7 stage i'd consider moving some of it to 3 where you only have improved critical.

And yeah, getting all fighting styles gets better and better as more are added, plus some like the one granting the battlemaster maneuver might be too complex for champ

loki_ragnarock
2022-04-15, 08:32 PM
Might want to specify "fighting styles available to the Fighter class," as one might - if one were chaotic evil - pitch that getting cleric and druid cantrips from the paladin and ranger fighting styles what do that would fall under "all fighting styles."

Dork_Forge
2022-04-16, 12:42 AM
Not to my taste personally, the short of it is that it's too strong and too convoluted.

3rd level - I'd rather this be an additional roll of the damage dice, more impactful and customisable.

7th - This is so much stuff, too much imo. Remarkable Athlete already gave a bonus to initiative, but adding 5ft movement speed and one of the strongest saves in the game? Too much, I'd just give the 5ft movement boost, let the Samurai be unique and rein in the power.

10th - Not only is this exceptionally powerful, but it is a whole mess of moving parts for what is supposed to be the most simple subclass. And I can see the argument for 'not all of them are applicable at once,' but too many of them are applicable at any given time. For example, a sword and board character can leverage all of these (top of my head, not exhaustive):

-Defense
-Dueling
-Superior Technique
-Blind Fighting
-Interception
-Protection

You arguable have enough features from the various styles to cobble together a subclass out of, and we already have precedent for what a Fighting Style is worth: a feat, or mid level feature.

As the features went up it just seemed to creep more and more, becoming too powerful and losing the vision of what the Champion is meant to be.

CTurbo
2022-04-16, 01:19 AM
I don't mind the Champion gaining most or every Fighting Style, but I don't like getting them all at once. Maybe they gain an additional style at level 3, and add another one every 2 levels or so?

At level 7, I'd increase speed +10ft instead of +5ft


I like the changes for the most part. They do make the Champion "better", but it's still very straight forward. Some may still call it boring.

Greywander
2022-04-16, 01:56 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think the first major change I'll make is to restrict Fighting Mastery to only giving PHB fighting styles. I think that will solve or at least soften almost all the issues surrounding that feature that you've all brought up. I think it works better too, since a new player might have trouble dealing with all the non-PHB fighting styles, so this would reduce the number to a manageable amount. Also, any new fighting styles that get released would no longer be an issue. You can still get one non-PHB fighting style using your 1st level pick, and Tasha's lets fighters retrain a fighting style on ASI levels, so you can wait until 8th or 12th level to retrain (and I imagine many DMs would let you retrain immediately at 10th level if you had a PHB style).

I'm not sure about Remarkable Athlete. It does feel a bit busy, and is probably one of the stronger 7th level features for any fighter subclass, but I think it balances out with the 3rd and 15th level features. I might drop the DEX save proficiency, but I'm not yet convinced that that's making the subclass too powerful. I think you'd still see plenty of people playing other fighter subclasses.

Aside from those, I feel like it's looking pretty solid. As I said, Survivor is fine, and Superior Critical doesn't really need any change since the bonus damage from Improved Critical already scales. The only other thing I might change is the bonus on a crit, but I think the bonus damage works pretty well. I'm open to suggestions, though. One idea was to get an extra attack after critting, but only once per turn, but I think I like the bonus damage better.

qube
2022-04-16, 02:03 AM
Looks pretty great but I'm a bit iffy on getting all fighting styles.

Getting superior technique ( a manouvre), interception (reation thing to do), and blind fighting all at the same time seems a bit much for (what I presume to be) the mindset of a champion fighter.

Maybe something like : +1 attack, damage, and AC ?


Some may still call it boring.I always thought this was by design - a subclass for the player who hates (or is overwelmed by) bookkeeping / keeping track of abilities?

Greywander
2022-04-16, 10:34 AM
You must have already started writing your post when I posted the last update. It now only gives PHB fighting styles, so no Blind Fighting, Interception, or Superior Technique. You can still get those using your 1st level pick, if you want to, and the feature lets you immediately swap out your 1st level pick if you took one of the PHB styles.

This should be both a lot more balanced and easier for new players.


Maybe something like : +1 attack, damage, and AC ?
This is actually fairly comparable to free Defense style + the style for your current weapon. Plus, it won't stack with those, which could have lead to some minmax shenanigans (which can be fun, but seems antithetical to the design intent of the Champion).

Lokishade
2022-04-16, 12:28 PM
I went for a revision of the Champion Fighter in another, long buried thread.

I basically moved Remarkable Athelete to level 3. The rationale behind this was that Xanathar's subclasses all give a minimum of two features at level 3 instead of 1. Also, Remarkable Athelete felt lackluster for a level 7 feature.

We also debated on how much Remarkable Athelete could be buffed in order to make it more attractive without breaking something in the system. The consensus was that the half proficiency should be added on top of existing proficiencies, but not on top of Expertise. That way, the player won't feel penalized for investing in Strength and Dex Skills and won't feel like multiclassing with Rogue would be mandatory.

To fill in for the now missing level 7 feature, I went and looked at the Samurai for inspiration and balance. Since the Samurai gets the Wis save proficiency, giving Champion the Dex save proficiency didn't feel out of bounds. And since the Samurai also got extra features for social interactions on top of it, I decided to also give the Champion the benefits of the Athelete feat without the stat boost.

I have yet to see one of my players picking Champion Fighter, but if one does, I'll give him these boosts.

Dr.Samurai
2022-04-16, 12:37 PM
I think level 3 is still a little anemic, as the benefit will only occur 5% of the time. I think moving part of Remarkable Athlete up to level 3 would help, maybe the half proficiency bonus and the doubling of carry capacity/jump.

Level 7 could still provide the prof to Dex saves, though I recognize the flavor of this is behind Remarkable Athlete so splitting them up might be a bit strange.

I absolutely love the idea of getting each Fighting Style, as I've never liked forcing fighters to choose a certain style of fighting. I agree with the choice to limit them, though I would keep Blind-Fight in there. Maybe just restrict the Maneuvers and the Cantrip styles.

I generally like this, but I think the Improved Critical at level 3 just happens so infrequently that it's like not having a subclass feature most of the times.

Greywander
2022-04-16, 12:56 PM
What if we put the +1/2 prof to STR/DEX/CON checks and the double carry/jump at 3rd level as Remarkable Athlete, then the +5 speed and DEX save proficiency at 7th level as Mythical Athlete or something? Or even just the +1/2 prof at 3rd level and everything else at 7th?

Peelee
2022-04-16, 02:10 PM
The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Moved to homebrew.

Kane0
2022-04-16, 04:28 PM
What if we put the +1/2 prof to STR/DEX/CON checks and the double carry/jump at 3rd level as Remarkable Athlete, then the +5 speed and DEX save proficiency at 7th level as Mythical Athlete or something? Or even just the +1/2 prof at 3rd level and everything else at 7th?

Yep split em up, feels much smoother

Greywander
2022-04-16, 04:50 PM
Yep split em up, feels much smoother
Done. You now get half proficiency at 3rd level, everything else comes at 7th level.

Yakk
2022-04-18, 06:50 PM
To balance Champion, I like to compare it to the "idiot proof Battlemaster".

The idiot proof battlemaster takes precision attack, riposte, and one ability that lets them deal extra damage.

They follow the following simple strategy:
1. If you miss by 1 or 2, use precision attack
2. If you crit, use extra damage
3. If a creature misses you, riposte

That is it. No other tactics.

You get at least 9 damage per sup die (on average) this way. You have a 15%+ chance per round of using a sup die, so 1.35 dpr, and lasts 27 rounds between short rests (up to 36 damage per short rest)

Improved crit has a 5% chance of adding [w] (at most 7) per round, or 0.35 dpattack.

For the champion to keep up there have to be 100 attacks per short rest.

Adding 2-3 damage (T1/2) to crits is another 0.2-0.3 damage per attack; you still need 50+ attacks between short rests to keep up with the brain-dead battlemaster above.

I call it brain-dead BM because the algorithm is simple. You aren't even using your brain to decide when to do studf, and you ignore any tactical use of BM abilities (I mean, the attack could trip, but you don't care) or optimization (precision stacks insanely with SS/GWM).

...

You add 1/2 proficiency (rounded up), and honestly this means a level 3 champion will still feel incompetent next to a BM.

(The BM I describe is actually stronger than the math above indicates; riposte isn't even used to get the above numbers, and riposte is strong.)

Ulsan Krow
2022-04-21, 03:32 PM
I'm going to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of this fix while I like the impetus behind the fix (keeping Champion simple while trying to even it out in power with other fighter subclasses)

I think adding additional math that isn't intuitive or having a large number of new bonuses to account for goes against that 1st design philosophy. Improved Critical is great because you don't even think about it 19/20 times you roll die, reducing book keeping. + It doesn't add new rules of how you calculate damage or anything, its just a more frequent iteration of something you already will do, roll criticals.

If my table allows I prefer just going the route of increasing Improved Criticals at level 3 to 18-20 and Superior Critical (this level range I've never seen reached for a Champion fighter), I assume isn't exactly broken at 17-20 either


Mythical Athlete is good, the naming flavor is a bit strange though since nothing about the feature seems 'mythical' or epic and level 7 5e Fighters don't tend to be particularly Mythical just yet. Remarkable Athlete is a fine name I feel. Proficiency in Dexterity saving throws is something I like and a pretty logical level 7 feature for the theme and purpose and target audience of the Champion.

Fighting Mastery I also am not a fan of. Just too many things to add all at once and increasing the power of those other features should be adequate rather than the summation of adding tons of as you have noted, decreasingly useful mini features.

Kane0
2022-04-21, 05:08 PM
Looks prety similar to what I settled on with my Champion:

Level 3: Improved Critical1
Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20, and you can roll one additional weapon damage die when determining the extra damage for a critical hit with a weapon attack.

Level 3: Remarkable Physique2
- Your speed increases by 5 feet
- You are always considered to have a running start when jumping*
- Standing from prone only costs you 5 feet of movement**

Level 7: Remarkable Athlete3
You add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use double your proficiency bonus
In addition, you gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws, or another type of saving throw of your choice if you are already proficient

Level 10: Fighting Style Mastery4
You can choose two additional fighting styles from the Fighter list, and at the end of a short or long rest you can choose to exchange any one of your fighting styles for another on the Fighter list.

Level 15: Superior Critical
Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20, and you can roll two additional weapon damage dice when determining the extra damage for a critical hit with a weapon attack

Level 18: Survivor
Unchanged

1: It's Brutal Critical, but better!
2: Just in case of interactions with Jump or Step of the Wind, and because I basically threw out the Athlete feat
3: Note that it can give you 'prof-and-a-half'
4: Mostly for being able to use whatever gear your DM throws at you (especially using random tables), but savvy Champions can hotswap in a cheeky Superior Technique (Ambush/Commanding Presence/Tactical Assessment) for noncombat use