What if you could take your ASIs sooner?

[clash]

I was thinking about how some builds really really on feats of ASIs to really get off the ground and had a random idea. What if after starting with level 2 you could choose to take level 4 ASI instead of the abilities you normally gain at that level? Then at level 3 you would get your level 2 abilities and at level 4 your level 3 abilities and everything is tracking normally again so at 5 you would still your level 5 abilities.

What if you extended this so that you could choose to take any of your ASI levels at any point in your progression. What breaks if you allow it? Would characters still be balanced if one took ASI levels early and another progressed as normal?

[MoiMagnus]

I was thinking about how some builds really really on feats of ASIs to really get off the ground and had a random idea. What if after starting with level 2 you could choose to take level 4 ASI instead of the abilities you normally gain at that level? Then at level 3 you would get your level 2 abilities and at level 4 your level 3 abilities and everything is tracking normally again so at 5 you would still your level 5 abilities.

What if you extended this so that you could choose to take any of your ASI levels at any point in your progression. What breaks if you allow it? Would characters still be balanced if one took ASI levels early and another progressed as normal?

I mean, it buffs spellcasters significantly, especially at level 5. ASI are on even numbered levels because spellcasters get their main power boost on odd levels (except level 19 since there is no 10th level spells), so I'm pretty sure taking your level 8 ASI at level 5 is optimal.

It has some very weird interaction with multiclassing, and it's kind of difficult to see which builds get buffed, but you certainly helped a few multiclassed builds.

[Greywander]

ASIs are just stat bumps, so you never "need" them, they just make you more effective. This really only applies to feats, so I'd focus on those.

A fairly common houserule I've seen, and one that I advocate for, is giving everyone a free feat at 1st level. Variant humans and custom lineage would then get two, but the value of those races is diminished due to everyone getting a feat. This is probably the simplest way to get the result you want.

Another option, which can be used in tandem with the above (albeit, it might be overkill), is to double up and give both a feat and an ASI at ASI levels. In a version I proposed, the ASI gave two +1s that must be in different stats, and if you take a half feat, the +1s have to be in a different stat from that as well. I allowed for some exceptions if a stat is lower than a certain value, as otherwise you'd be unable to max out lower stats otherwise. Anyway, this helps to spread out your stat points so that you don't max out your primary score early, which also helps to balance out getting a feat. I think this also helps preserve the balance of MAD classes, which are balanced around feats being optional and thus not allowed by default.

Your idea would probably work, the only thing is that some classes actually do get other features at ASI levels. For example, clerics get other features at 8th level. If you can figure that out, then it should be fine. It might be interesting if you could take any level out of order, so long as it's within a certain range, e.g. in the same tier. This could be really interesting for multiclassing, particularly if you could skip 1st level features entirely and go straight to 2nd or 3rd level features. Or for splits, being able to take a 6th or 7th level feature at 5th level so you can dip out sooner.

Actually, I think I'm warming up to this idea. I'd probably break it into four level chunks. For example, you can basically rearrange 1st through 4th level, 5th through 8th level, 9th through 12th level, 13th through 16th level, and 17th through 20th level. So by, say, 8th level, you have all the features of levels 1 to 8, but you didn't necessarily get them in that order. Maybe you took your 7th level feature at 5th level, for example.

I'm sure there are issues with that idea, like people jumping ahead to get their subclass at 1st level, but it's an interesting idea nonetheless.

[Omethelon]

Given all the discussions and concern over things like Hexblade giving a character such great power in that first level dip, I'd expect similar concerns with something like this unless you accounted for it. For example, one level of Artificer to get Battle Smith or Armorer for Int to attacks, as a direct parallel.

I'd want to consider something like "you can't MC out until you catch up to the level you swapped with" to avoid the concerns. Otherwise, you've got a lot of figuring to do to determine if you just opened the door to 5e's version of Pun-pun or something ... :)

Edit: of course, would forcing that defeat the purpose? It would certainly mean nothing changed as far as Multiclassing was concerned, but might make some things easier on the player as they were levelling.

[Kane0]

Dipping ranger becomes really good because you can drop the level 1 features for a feat, tale levels 2-3 if you want then multiclass out.

Any class that doubles up on extra attack also handy since you can substitute in a feat and not have a dead level

I think that would largely be problematic because not all features are equal, dont all come at the same rates nor at the same times. Classes with only a ribbon at a given level greatly benefit from this but classes that get lots per level wont, and those that dont get features on a lot of levels cant do this at all.

And ribbons get sidelined even harder, moving the overton window farther towards powerplay.

[clash]

Dipping ranger becomes really good because you can drop the level 1 features for a feat, tale levels 2-3 if you want then multiclass out.

Any class that doubles up on extra attack also handy since you can substitute in a feat and not have a dead level

I think that would largely be problematic because not all features are equal, dont all come at the same rates nor at the same times. Classes with only a ribbon at a given level greatly benefit from this but classes that get lots per level wont, and those that dont get features on a lot of levels cant do this at all.

And ribbons get sidelined even harder, moving the overton window farther towards powerplay.

I think this is misunderstanding the premise. If you took an ASI as level 1 ranger you would get ranger level 1 features at level 2 not the level 2 features. Barring multiclass you end up taking all the same features eventually so ribbons can't be skipped.

I didn't think about the buff to casters due to spellcasting level and ASI. It would mean that they have dead levels as a result of they tried it single classed, but multiclass could definitely prove problematic.

[Kane0]

Ah fair enough. Most wouldnt dare delay extra attack on a martial so it would really only get used in tier2+ for them. Most likely towards the tail end of a game where players are reasonably sure they wont reach the next major feature they actually want so they eat the delay in something theyll never likely get in order to fast track a feat they do want.

[sambojin]

With Greywanderer's version, there are little problems like Druid. Getting Moon wildshape, or even little wildshape + totems (or constellations) is pretty terrifying as a starting dip.

Sure you lose casting and some cantrips, but most martial heroes would be fine with just big wildshape. It's essentially free HP and multiattack on a bonus action, so putting off extra attack by a level (and even action surge) isn't that big of a deal. And later on, many of the wildshape forms work pretty well with extra attack or maneuvers, etc anyway.

[Leon]

Level four is good, the problem is that they are tied to class levels, hearken back to 3.5 where it was tied to Character level and its a lot better in that you can be that mishmash of classes to suit your desire and still get your feat/Stat boost

[Psyren]

Free feat at first level is simple, elegant, and does what this houserule is trying to do but better imo.