The Case for Upcasting Cantrips

[Thunderous Mojo]

The 5e Designers did not intend this, but as written the rules can allow Cantrips to be Upcast. Cantrips are zero level spells, that can be cast at will, without needing a spell slot to be expended.

Per the PHB:
CASTING A SPELL AT A HIGHER LEVEL
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of ahigher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.

When one Upcasts a Cantrip, into a spell slot, it ceases to be a Cantrip, and instead expands into be a leveled casting.

A Light spell cast in a 1st level slot is not a Cantrip, it is a 1st Level Light spell, based off the PHB.

I state again, the 5e Designers never intended this interaction, yet the interpretation fits the text, and breaks nothing.

Indeed, Upcasting a Cantrip has no value, and would be a mistake.
The only times Upcasting a Cantrip would make sense, would be to counteract a Darkness spell, or for subclasses like the Storm Sorcerer that have subclass features that trigger off a casting a particular type of 1st level spell.

A Storm Sorcerer being able to cast a 1st Level Lightning Lure, to activate their Heart of the Storm feature, is a small mercy at best, and does not break anything.

I now cede the Floor to my detractors, (which are legion🍻), Fire Away Folks!🃏

As always: Be Well, Good Luck, and Good Gaming to you all!

[JNAProductions]

Seems fine, though rather niche.

If a player asked for this at my table, I’d allow it.

[Keltest]

Ignoring that most casting classes spellcasting feature specifically excludes using spell slots for 0th level spells, the fact that daylight exists as a bigger form of light strongly indicates that cantrips are not meant to be able to be upcast, otherwise the spell is largely redundant.

[clash]

Ignoring that most casting classes spellcasting feature specifically excludes using spell slots for 0th level spells, the fact that daylight exists as a bigger form of light strongly indicates that cantrips are not meant to be able to be upcast, otherwise the spell is largely redundant.

Not nessecarily redundant. The spells still have different parameters. Both burning hands and fireball exist even through you can upcast burning hands. I allow upcasting the damage of cantrips as well and haven't run into any issues with it.

[False God]

I think most games would do well with more adjustable spellcasting, rather than simply more powerful versions of the same spell at higher level.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Ignoring that most casting classes spellcasting feature specifically excludes using spell slots for 0th level spells, the fact that daylight exists as a bigger form of light strongly indicates that cantrips are not meant to be able to be upcast, otherwise the spell is largely redundant.

Sadly, Daylight is largely redundant, even without Upcasting cantrips.
The true value of the Daylight spell is a rejoinder for when people state the aphorism: “Spells do what they say they do”.
“What about Daylight?”

This is the spell casting section from the Sorcerer class:

CANTRIPS
A t 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. You learn additional sorcerer cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Sorcerer table.
SPELL SLOTS
The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slotsyou have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these sorcerer spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, ifyou know the 1st-level spell burning hands and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast burning hands using either slot


An Upcast Sorcerer Cantrip becomes a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, which comports to the text.

[bid]

An Upcast Sorcerer Cantrip becomes a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, which comports to the text.
Well, I'll posit cantrips are "no-level" spells, which is different from "level 0".

OTOH, I don't know if spending a 1st slot is worth adding a rider to a 4d8 cantrip.

[heavyfuel]

Finally I can target Rakshasas with Ray of Frost :smalltongue:

[Thunderous Mojo]

Well, I'll posit cantrips are "no-level" spells, which is different from "level 0".

OTOH, I don't know if spending a 1st slot is worth adding a rider to a 4d8 cantrip.

From the PHB pg 201: A cantrip's spell level is 0.
Agreed, on the concerns of is it worth it to Upcast a Cantrip.

[Chronos]

heavyfuel hit the other corner case I was going to mention: If you're fighting a Rakshasha (or Tiamat or something else with a similar ability), and you really need just a little bit more damage (or some other specific rider effect), and the only damaging spells (or spells with that rider effect) you have available are cantrips.

But yeah, I've been saying for a long time that it's RAW-legal, even if you'd almost never have a reason to actually do it.

[stoutstien]

I've always allowed players to up cast cantrips in some fashion. I figured as long as the net outcome is less powerful than an actual spell of that slot value it's an easy way for the players to have more agency with less effort on my part.

I'd love an artificer and/or sorcerer subclass focused on enhanced cantrips.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I'd love an artificer and/or sorcerer subclass focused on enhanced cantrips.

The Maverick Artificer from Keith Baker’s Exploring Eberron has enhanced Cantrip features.

The Maverick Artificer does not receive Cantrip damage boosts, unlike other Artificer subclasses, but the Maverick does receive an accuracy bonus and increased spell DCs for cantrip spells, and the ability to significantly expand their Cantrip pool.

[stoutstien]

The Maverick Artificer from Keith Baker’s Exploring Eberron has enhanced Cantrip features.

The Maverick Artificer does not receive Cantrip damage boosts, unlike other Artificer subclasses, but the Maverick does receive an accuracy bonus and increased spell DCs for cantrip spells, and the ability to significantly expand their Cantrip pool.

I adore the Maverick even if it's a little wordy.

[animorte]

Well, I'll posit cantrips are "no-level" spells, which is different from "level 0".

I think this is primarily why they moved away from the term 0-Level (3.5e) to Cantrips (5e). Also before 5e, Cantrips (or 0-Level spells) had limited slots just like everything else.
- note, I never played 4e, so idk there -

A very notable difference to take into account, so I agree that they weren't intended to be upcast, but I don't see any issue with it. It's your spell slot.

[Tanarii]

The rules I can find are:
- Cantrips - simple but powerful spells that characters can cast almost by rote - are level 0. (PHB 201)
- It also doesn't expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can't be cast at a higher level. (PHB 202 under Rituals, but the same holds true for Cantrips)

But really ... who cares? :smallamused:

[Amechra]

I adore the Maverick even if it's a little wordy.

It feels a little busted to me if you optimize it a bit. If I'm reading it correctly, the bonuses from Cantrip Savant stack with stuff like Enhanced Focus or Enhanced Weapon... which is relevant when you consider that you can pick up Eldritch Blast or the Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade through your Arcane Breakthrough feature.

[bid]

From the PHB pg 201: A cantrip's spell level is 0.
Agreed, on the concerns of is it worth it to Upcast a Cantrip.
Oops, I guess that pretty clear ><

[Tanarii]

Oops, I guess that pretty clear ><
But also under rituals:
It also doesn't expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can't be cast at a higher level. (PHB 202)

It may be under Rituals, but the same holds true for Cantrips. They don't expend a slot, so they can't be cast at a higher level.

I still don't see why a DM should care if it is though.

[Hytheter]

I think most games would do well with more adjustable spellcasting, rather than simply more powerful versions of the same spell at higher level.

I'd be rather interested in a game where upcasting spells from cantrip to max is just how spells typically work, with each level adding damage and potentially opening up alterations. As a simple example:

Fire
Level 0: Deals d10 fire damage at range (fire bolt)
Level 1: +d10 and you can make it a short range cone (burning hands)
Level 2: +d10 and you can split up the d10s into multiple attacks (scorching ray)
Level 3: +d10 and you can make it an AOE (fireball)

Or something like that. Individual spells would have larger descriptions but you'd be trimming the list quite a bit and your magic would seem to develop more naturally.

[Lunali]

But also under rituals:
It also doesn't expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can't be cast at a higher level. (PHB 202)

It may be under Rituals, but the same holds true for Cantrips. They don't expend a slot, so they can't be cast at a higher level.

I still don't see why a DM should care if it is though.

Rituals can still (usually) be cast at a higher level, just not as a ritual, you have to spend a spell slot. I would allow the same for cantrips, you can cast it at a higher level, but it isn't a cantrip when you do. I wouldn't expect players to actually do it most of the time, but I would allow it.

[clash]

I'd be rather interested in a game where upcasting spells from cantrip to max is just how spells typically work, with each level adding damage and potentially opening up alterations. As a simple example:

Fire
Level 0: Deals d10 fire damage at range (fire bolt)
Level 1: +d10 and you can make it a short range cone (burning hands)
Level 2: +d10 and you can split up the d10s into multiple attacks (scorching ray)
Level 3: +d10 and you can make it an AOE (fireball)

Or something like that. Individual spells would have larger descriptions but you'd be trimming the list quite a bit and your magic would seem to develop more naturally.

I've already created almost exactly this, except it's been switched to using mana instead of spell slots of your interested.

[Hytheter]

I've already created almost exactly this, except it's been switched to using mana instead of spell slots of your interested.

Sure, I'll take a look! Though I'll warn you I have opinions regarding spell point systems as well. :P