Sunder base class

[Novir Vetru]

So I am trying to come up with ideas for a sunder based base class. I am having difficulty with what abilities, and what levels to put them in. I know I want the class to get improved sunder by level 3 for free and that I want them to eventually be able to sunder non-weapons. Any advice?

[pabelfly]

Maybe their sunder attack can impose a penalty on attack rolls for natural weapons?

[Novir Vetru]

How do you mean?

[loky1109]

Of class is sunder BASED it should have improved sunder at very first level. Or you talk about 3.0 improved sunder feat?

[Novir Vetru]

Of class is sunder BASED it should have improved sunder at very first level. Or you talk about 3.0 improved sunder feat?

I was referring to the 3.5 version. I thought the same thing, but wasn't sure if it was considered strong or not.

[StSword]

There's a third party class the Severist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/gungnir-gamedev/severist/), which one might want to take a look at for inspiration.

Although it might be too mystical for what you have in mind, it can severe a wizard's familiar bond or a a summoned outsider's connection to the mortal plane, for example.

[Novir Vetru]

There's a third party class the Severist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/gungnir-gamedev/severist/), which one might want to take a look at for inspiration.

Although it might be too mystical for what you have in mind, it can severe a wizard's familiar bond or a a summoned outsider's connection to the mortal plane, for example.

It does look like an interesting class, but you're right about it being a bit too mystical for what I'm aiming for.

[loky1109]

I was referring to the 3.5 version. I thought the same thing, but wasn't sure if it was considered strong or not.
Not. Fighter 1 can have it easy.
We have bad example getting main class feature at five level - Dragon Shaman. His main weapon is Breath Weapon and first four levels he plays without it like a fool. He even can't take feats improve his main weapon. It's bad design, don't do that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Instead of just sundering weapons, how about temporarily sundering concepts? You could sunder caster level, or sunder various ability scores, or sunder sensory abilities. It's just dealing temporary CL or ability damage, or blinding/muting/etc a creature for a few rounds, but not permanently. And allow the class to sunder items to make them useless for a limited amount of time, so you aren't destroying your own loot after you kill defeat the owner.

Reminds me of the Sword Arts skill from various Final Fantasy games, like Steiner's ability from FFIX.

[pabelfly]

How do you mean?

A player has a Sunderer character. They're fighting, say, a default Dire Ape. The Sunderer uses a special sunder attack on one of the claws of the Dire Ape. When the Dire Ape attacks next, one of their claws attacks at +8 attack bonus, as default, but the "sundered" claw attack might be at, say, +4 bonus, or might even have been severed so that attack is removed from its attack routine. Maybe this class feature could progress so that at lower levels, the "sunder" attack reduces the attack roll and at higher level, can sever an enemy limb entirely.

[Novir Vetru]

A player has a Sunderer character. They're fighting, say, a default Dire Ape. The Sunderer uses a special sunder attack on one of the claws of the Dire Ape. When the Dire Ape attacks next, one of their claws attacks at +8 attack bonus, as default, but the "sundered" claw attack might be at, say, +4 bonus, or might even have been severed so that attack is removed from its attack routine. Maybe this class feature could progress so that at lower levels, the "sunder" attack reduces the attack roll and at higher level, can sever an enemy limb entirely.

Interesting notion, i just might use that. I'll likely do it slightly differently though.

[Telonius]

The big problem with sundering things is that when it works, you make your enemy weaker, but you've also destroyed part of your reward for beating the enemy. Maybe not that big of a deal when you're fighting something that's carrying a non-masterwork weapon. But very big deal when you destroy a magic weapon worth thousands of gold pieces. Unless your DM is houseruling a way to repair the magic item, once it's destroyed, that's it. You have a pile of nonmagical scrap. If you somehow put it back together, it's a regular nonmagical sword. You'd need to spend time, gold, and XP to enchant it back to what it was. So, if you're building this from the ground up, maybe make it so you can absorb the magical energies released when you succeed at sundering. Like, serving as a conduit for the magic, You can pour it back into a MW weapon to turn it into the same sort of enchanted weapon as the one you just broke.

[pabelfly]

The big problem with sundering things is that when it works, you make your enemy weaker, but you've also destroyed part of your reward for beating the enemy. Maybe not that big of a deal when you're fighting something that's carrying a non-masterwork weapon. But very big deal when you destroy a magic weapon worth thousands of gold pieces. Unless your DM is houseruling a way to repair the magic item, once it's destroyed, that's it. You have a pile of nonmagical scrap. If you somehow put it back together, it's a regular nonmagical sword. You'd need to spend time, gold, and XP to enchant it back to what it was. So, if you're building this from the ground up, maybe make it so you can absorb the magical energies released when you succeed at sundering. Like, serving as a conduit for the magic, You can pour it back into a MW weapon to turn it into the same sort of enchanted weapon as the one you just broke.

Absorbing the weapon energies sounds like a cool idea. If it doesn't improve the magical abilities of another weapon, maybe it can give stat bonuses or various boosts to the Sunderer character instead at higher levels.

[daremetoidareyo]

Absorbing the weapon energies sounds like a cool idea. If it doesn't improve the magical abilities of another weapon, maybe it can give stat bonuses or various boosts to the Sunderer character instead at higher levels.

I concur here. A magic item type energy highlander.

Imagine the myths: once we break all the trapped magics, we will need to battle each other to the death for the immortality of the gods!

Like a defiler, but instead of destroying environmentally rich biomes, you leach off the magics wielded by others.

Maybe home brew a feat that allows sneak attack damage to apply to objects attempting to be sundered and some other theurgic rogue/sunderer build element stacking

[loky1109]

The big problem with sundering things is that when it works, you make your enemy weaker, but you've also destroyed part of your reward for beating the enemy.

This is myth. It isn't problem at all. You have all reward your DM want, not more, not less.

[Maat Mons]

Some DMs use pre-published modules with little or no alteration. And some of the DMs who create their own campaigns stick to the random treasure tables. Not every DM keeps an eye on wealth-by-level and adjusts rewards accordingly.

[loky1109]

Some DMs use pre-published modules with little or no alteration. And some of the DMs who create their own campaigns stick to the random treasure tables. Not every DM keeps an eye on wealth-by-level and adjusts rewards accordingly.

This is the problem, not sunder.

[Analytica]

I am thinking here look to Spellthief and also to ToB?

Also something perhaps how like Artificers can destroy magic items to help make new ones cheaper.

[Kitsuneymg]

Pathfinder 3pp has you covered. http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/blacksmith

If you want this sans Spheres of Might and backport Ed to 3.5, you could probably just drop spheres and grant bonus fighter feats at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.

[pabelfly]

This is the problem, not sunder.

How the DM decides to run their game is very, very rarely the problem and this case wouldn't be an exception.

[loky1109]

How the DM decides to run their game is very, very rarely the problem and this case wouldn't be an exception.
We look on this in very different ways. Most of the game problems root in the DM's decisions and this case wouldn't be an exception.
Appropriate loot and appropriate challenge are DM's responsibility. If he can't be flexible according to context - it is problem. Being the DM is hard work and hard skill. It needs to be learned.

[Gnaeus]

The big problem with sundering things is that when it works, you make your enemy weaker, but you've also destroyed part of your reward for beating the enemy. Maybe not that big of a deal when you're fighting something that's carrying a non-masterwork weapon. But very big deal when you destroy a magic weapon worth thousands of gold pieces. Unless your DM is houseruling a way to repair the magic item, once it's destroyed, that's it. You have a pile of nonmagical scrap. If you somehow put it back together, it's a regular nonmagical sword. You'd need to spend time, gold, and XP to enchant it back to what it was. So, if you're building this from the ground up, maybe make it so you can absorb the magical energies released when you succeed at sundering. Like, serving as a conduit for the magic, You can pour it back into a MW weapon to turn it into the same sort of enchanted weapon as the one you just broke.

A. A big problem with sundering things. Other problem include:
It works against a small subset of opponents

It isn't actually putting enemies on the floor. If the bad guy just picks up another sword you probably haven't changed his math much. Lots of big bads have multiple options in combat and you just eliminated one, possibly not even the best one. Lots of little bads aren't worth the action to take away their action for a round while they get another weapon, even if it's an improvised weapon.

It's a melee trick with all the same problems as other melee tricks

And for the record I would never add additional party loot to make up for what PCs destroyed. Yeah, the DM sets loot. But generally before the encounter. That's like saying you can just smash all chests because anything you break DM will just give you more. I can't believe that's common.you destroy your stuff, you have less stuff. If I were playing in that game I'd insist it comes out of the sunderer's share of loot. Here's your 6 broken longswords Steve. That's 45 gp pf your treasure. Because even if the DM thinks destroying treasure should be rewarded with more treasure there is no reason adventurers would expect that.

[Kitsuneymg]

A. A big problem with sundering things. Other problem include:
It works against a small subset of opponents

It isn't actually putting enemies on the floor. If the bad guy just picks up another sword you probably haven't changed his math much. Lots of big bads have multiple options in combat and you just eliminated one, possibly not even the best one. Lots of little bads aren't worth the action to take away their action for a round while they get another weapon, even if it's an improvised weapon.

It's a melee trick with all the same problems as other melee tricks

And for the record I would never add additional party loot to make up for what PCs destroyed. Yeah, the DM sets loot. But generally before the encounter. That's like saying you can just smash all chests because anything you break DM will just give you more. I can't believe that's common.

And if the GM is suppose to slavishly follow the WBL table (which is actually just a cumulative sum of treasure less a fiat 10% for consumables) then tanking a crafting feat should reduce loot as well.

But the attitude of “save me from my own decisions” is strong among some players. They are overly entitled and tend to complain a lot. Loudly.

[Telonius]

If the DM doesn't make any adjustment to a Sunder-based character, the character gets less loot. If the DM does make adjustments to the character, they're forced to keep track (in real time) of what the player has or hasn't broken, how much it's worth, and adjust the treasure accordingly. Whether you look at the problem as being on the DM's end (more work) or the player's (less loot), the fact that Sunder is an option at all means the problem exists.

[EndlessKng]

It's Pathfinder AND 3rd Party (Spheres of Might), but look at the Blacksmith. Thunderous Blow adds damage to Sunder attempts (in a progression similar to sneak attack), counts as the Improved Sunder feat, and can shatter natural armor and weapons starting at 3rd level, in addition to the combat talents for being in SoM and the crafting side of things.

[Novir Vetru]

If the DM doesn't make any adjustment to a Sunder-based character, the character gets less loot. If the DM does make adjustments to the character, they're forced to keep track (in real time) of what the player has or hasn't broken, how much it's worth, and adjust the treasure accordingly. Whether you look at the problem as being on the DM's end (more work) or the player's (less loot), the fact that Sunder is an option at all means the problem exists.

A thing that I've seen DMs do, more often than not, is making it to where the merchants and shopkeeps of the realm wont just buy the 15 swords you found clearing a bandit camp just because you want them to. In most cases the loot from random enemies like bandits or even soldiers isn't that much better, if at all, than the player's items already. Even if it is, it doesn't guarantee you'll be able to sell it.

And you aren't sundering the gold or armor anyway so it never ends up mattering.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...There are reasons I take Ancestral Relic whenever I can...

[Maat Mons]

I've rarely encountered DMs who want to spend game time on buying and selling. Usually, if you have a few days to spare and you're in a decently-sized town, they just hand-wave the whole process.

The DM for my current game is an exception though. Our last game session included over two hours spent in one shop. Seriously, he let us know that he had determined ahead of time a specific list of magic items that would be available for purchase, but then the shopkeepers refused to just tell us what they had when we asked. Instead, they'd pick out a random item and give an extended sales pitch, continuing long after we'd said we weren't interested.

Oh, and NPCs in his setting refuse to use any form of currency. Everything operates on a barter system. And bartering takes way too long, because the NPCs waste a lot of time asking for things I'll never give them, like parts of my body, mind, or soul.

"Yeah, so I took this weird magic branding iron off a rabbit I killed. What'll you give me for it?"
"Ohh, you have such lovely skin!"
"Would you shut up about my skin? I already said you can't have it."

But I've found most DMs don't want to waste most of a weekly game night ******* players around on getting equipment.

Edit: That's considered obscene? Very well then, "Richard-ing players around."

[Particle_Man]

Maybe at high level gain the ability to add vorpal to any slashing melee weapon you use. So that you can sunder enemies directly. Snicker-snack! :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

[Bucky]

Like, serving as a conduit for the magic, You can pour it back into a MW weapon to turn it into the same sort of enchanted weapon as the one you just broke.
Or just give a class feature for repairing magical sundered objects in a way that restores the magic.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Spheres of Might Blacksmith really is the answer to all the usual problems. They get to sunder natural armor/weapons, they can repair any gear they break, and they can do things other than Sunder if you build them for it

[Gnaeus]

The DM for my current game is an exception though. Our last game session included over two hours spent in one shop. Seriously, he let us know that he had determined ahead of time a specific list of magic items that would be available for purchase, but then the shopkeepers refused to just tell us what they had when we asked. Instead, they'd pick out a random item and give an extended sales pitch, continuing long after we'd said we weren't interested.

Oh, and NPCs in his setting refuse to use any form of currency. Everything operates on a barter system. And bartering takes way too long, because the NPCs waste a lot of time asking for things I'll never give them, like parts of my body, mind, or soul.

"Yeah, so I took this weird magic branding iron off a rabbit I killed. What'll you give me for it?"
"Ohh, you have such lovely skin!"
"Would you shut up about my skin? I already said you can't have it."

Feel you, dude. I've got this DM where all the shopkeepers are insane and also hearing impaired. "I'd like to buy a wand of haste." "YOU WANT TO BUY A TUBE OF PASTE? THAT SHOP IS DOWN THE ROAD!"

Even less amusing is when it's another player shopping so you aren't even there/interested.

[AsuraKyoko]

Spheres of Might Blacksmith really is the answer to all the usual problems. They get to sunder natural armor/weapons, they can repair any gear they break, and they can do things other than Sunder if you build them for it

Yeah, Blacksmith is pretty solid. It has some options that allow you to do things like sunder natural weapons, or get bonuses at other things. IIRC, Pathfinder has different rules for Sunder, (you don't have to completely break a something to impair its function), but it's been a while since I looked at the sunder rules for 3.5e.

[Telonius]

Yeah, Blacksmith is pretty solid. It has some options that allow you to do things like sunder natural weapons, or get bonuses at other things. IIRC, Pathfinder has different rules for Sunder, (you don't have to completely break a something to impair its function), but it's been a while since I looked at the sunder rules for 3.5e.

Yeah, 3.5 it's a lot different. You declare the sunder. (If you don't have the Improved Sunder feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity). Then, opposed attack rolls; bonuses or penalties based on whether it's light or two-handed, or if you're larger than the opponent. If you win, you deal damage to the weapon or shield. Damage is reduced by the object's hardness (works basically like Damage Reduction for objects); adamantine ignores hardness. The object works just like a character, in that it's fully functional at 1hp. It's destroyed when it reaches 0hp.

When a magic item reaches zero hp, that is capital-B Bad. From Magic Item Basics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#damagingMagicItems):


Damaging Magic Items

Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.

[Novir Vetru]

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Reforger_(3.5e_Class)#Making_a_Reforger so this is the class I made. Any suggestions? is it balanced?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Reforger_(3.5e_Class)#Making_a_Reforger so this is the class I made. Any suggestions? is it balanced?Just on a quick glance? That's a LOT of dead levels, with no spellcasting to compensate. And you have to go two whole levels with just Improved Sunder as a bonus feat? Why?

Also, an odd number of skill points per level? Nope. Switch it to 4/lvl.

Just from that quick glance, I wouldn't even consider playing it.

Give it partial spellcasting starting at level 1 with a specialized spell list, as well as the ability to suppress items rather than sunder them, with the ability to un-suppress them given a short bit of time later. At level 1.

[Maat Mons]

Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from "the dead." If a thread hasn't been posted in within the last 45 days, don't reply to it. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss the subject (you are welcome to link to the old thread). If you think it would be better to resurrect an old thread, PM a moderator for that subforum and wait for approval. The original poster of a creation in Homebrew (and only that poster) may revive a creation beyond the 45 day threshold without prior Moderator approval.

This is a homebrew thread, but not in the Homebrew forum, so I'm pretty sure this still counts as necromancy. Unless you got approval.

Edit: Maybe the thread should be moved instead of locked? Assuming you didn't get approval.

[pabelfly]

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Reforger_(3.5e_Class)#Making_a_Reforger so this is the class I made. Any suggestions? is it balanced?

So quick glance... in combat it looks like it's weaker than a lot of martial combat classes without any ACFs. Like, you're weaker than Scout or TWF/Ranged Fighter, which are the two classes that come to mind to compare this to. Out of combat, you get to add value to the items you break and that can ruin game balance since you get more money than the DM intends you to have. Especially at level 20. Personally not a fan of this, but I'd also like to see what other posters think about the economy issues this brings up.

You get to reforge items, which is a good idea to remove one of the issues behind sunder as a concept, but your crafting is going to suck without spending a bunch of resources to improve crafting. You haven't defined how long it takes to repair a sundered item. You still suck against enemies without weapons. Your bonus damage progression is worse than Scout and doesn't have the options that Scout has to add bonus damage.

Intimate Understanding doesn't scale as an ability. It really should - repairing a common kitchen knife shouldn't be as easy as repairing a legendary sword from Weapons of Legacy, for example.

"Masterful Repair" sounds like a decent ability but it's undefined how many, and how powerful, the enchantments they can add are. Very broken.

Lots of formatting issues so it doesn't look like a standard class.

Suggestions:
I'd add bonus feats from a set list, maybe every fourth level like Scout. Some archery-style feats, TWF feats. Or maybe give combat styles like the Ranger class.
I'd add that you can use feats and items that improve Skirmish damage to improve Reforger bonus damage.
I'd come up with some multiclassing feats. I wouldn't main this class but maybe I'd add it in as a side with another class like, say, Swift Hunter convinces me to combine Scout and Ranger.
Limited spellcasting as suggested by MaxiDuRarity is a nice idea.

[Maat Mons]

At 1st level, give an ability equivalent to Ancestral relic, or the OA Samurai’s similar ability. Except you can choose for the value of anything you sunder to go straight into your relic/daisho. Of course, gaining this benefit from a particular item is mutually exclusive with repairing that item, when you gain that ability.



At 5th level, give the ability to Craft Magic Arms and Armor, without any stipulation that you have to be repairing a broken item. Repairing the items you sunder should be faster than making them from scratch, and have no associated cost. But you should still be able to make brand new items starting at the same level that ability becomes available to others.

Also at 5th level, you should be able to drain the residual magic from broken items to help make new items. Obviously, draining a broken item means you can no longer mend it. At least not for free.



You know what? Just give this guy all the crafting feats. For flavor, add a stipulation that you can only craft items with spell prerequisites if you’ve at some point sundered an item that had that same spell as a prerequisite. So you’re building out your knowledge as you go around smashing things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

At 1st level, give an ability equivalent to Ancestral relic, or the OA Samurai’s similar ability. Except you can choose for the value of anything you sunder to go straight into your relic/daisho. Of course, gaining this benefit from a particular item is mutually exclusive with repairing that item, when you gain that ability.Maybe a ritualized sundering? Takes 1 minute, and it can be done after battle on a weapon you sundered in battle or one you disarmed, or was dropped (when the wielder was stunned, say), one you took off a corpse, or even one you just found.

Could the benefits apply to a weapon, a shield (or a second weapon), and a suit of armor? There's only so much you can apply towards one weapon, after all.

[SangoProduction]

So I am trying to come up with ideas for a sunder based base class. I am having difficulty with what abilities, and what levels to put them in. I know I want the class to get improved sunder by level 3 for free and that I want them to eventually be able to sunder non-weapons. Any advice?

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/blacksmith

The spheres have a blacksmith class, which is basically sunder: the class.

[ericgrau]

The big problem with sundering things is that when it works, you make your enemy weaker, but you've also destroyed part of your reward for beating the enemy. Maybe not that big of a deal when you're fighting something that's carrying a non-masterwork weapon. But very big deal when you destroy a magic weapon worth thousands of gold pieces. Unless your DM is houseruling a way to repair the magic item, once it's destroyed, that's it. You have a pile of nonmagical scrap. If you somehow put it back together, it's a regular nonmagical sword. You'd need to spend time, gold, and XP to enchant it back to what it was. So, if you're building this from the ground up, maybe make it so you can absorb the magical energies released when you succeed at sundering. Like, serving as a conduit for the magic, You can pour it back into a MW weapon to turn it into the same sort of enchanted weapon as the one you just broke.

This is more like a tiny problem because magic weapons are fairly uncommon. When they do appear they have a lot of HP and hardness making it pretty obvious that hey this one didn't drop in 1 or 2 blows, maybe I shouldn't keep sundering it.

Sunder is situational but pretty powerful when it works. So I agree with all the ideas that help it to apply in more situations but without rendering non-weapons totally useless. Especially since a foe can't usually draw another natural attack. The -4 penalty was a good idea. It reduces the average hit from 10 out of 20 to 6 out of 20, so -40%. That's about right when it takes 2-3 rounds to kill a typical difficult foe with damage, or for him to roll poorly on a save. And the fluff of a broken limb works.

[rel]

The main issue I see is that a lot of opponents don't have equipment.
Sure you can pounce on anything with a weapon and probably knock a bit off their power.

And if you spot a spellcasting creature that isn't just loaded out with spell likes, you can break the spell component pouch / holy symbol and shut down a lot of what they can do.

But at the end of the day, a lot of monsters are pretty much immune to your main gimmick. Not great for a base class.

As others have mentioned, moving beyond sundering equipment is a good way to solve these problems.

Here's how I'd set things up:

your attacks cheerfully ignoring DR, Hardness and weapon immunity is a good start. Reliable damage no matter what is very in theme and a surprisingly potent option, particularly at low levels.
As the party panics, you step up and carve the menacing shadow or swarm of bees into bits.
Along the same lines a limited ability to target touch AC as your weapon cuts effortlessly through armour, shields and other protections is a nicely thematic power.

Sundering spells, eventually cutting them right out of the air as an AOO seems like a thematically appropriate option that should remain relevant through most of the game.
And gives a lot of versatility. The greatest risk when designing such a class is to have every power boil down to deal X HP damage to thing Y.

Sundering creatures, severing limbs and inflicting crippling injuries is also very in theme and should be useful in any fight.
As a bonus it finally gives the 'reattach a limb' clause in regeneration a reason to exist. At high levels, you could progress it to a killing stroke, decapitating the enemy, slicing them in half or otherwise inflicting a lethal injury.

outside of combat, your obvious contribution is breaking ****. Sundering spells could give the class a powerful niche as the answer to annoyingly sticky magic.
Wall of force has the wizard stumped? Esoteric curse the cleric can't break? Cutsmore Breakerson has a solution! Hold still, this won't hurt a bit.

To expand on carving up the dungeon with hardness ignoring attacks, a burrow speed at higher levels might be fun so you can pull a Roland and carve out a mountain pass with your sword if you need to.

And some sort of inbuilt ability to affect things outside the immediate reach of your blade would be useful. A limited use ranged sunder perhaps?
Obviously sword guy should be more effective up close, but a class getting entirely shut down by a flying enemy is less than ideal.

[Jervis]

The issue with this design space is that a very large group of monsters at high levels don’t care at all. Casters and anything with natural attacks just kinda shrug. Optimizing the basic sunder is as simple as a Adamantine weapon with a +1 ability and a feat or two. You would need to give it uses for sundering natural weapons which i’m not sure is a good call. Sundering also has the issue of destroying loot because the kind of things you want to destroy would also make good loot. It also doesn’t deal damage to creatures which steps into the biggest issue; why use a action to break a sword when you can just as easily break the person using it? Martials with the level of optimization required to make sundering good can just as easily turn a enemy into a stain on the wall in the same amount of if not less time. So to make a class that uses it you want to build around some design issues.

-Sundering doesn’t deal damage, so by the time the item breaks the creature might be almost dead

-Sundering only works on humanoid enemies with weapons

-Sundering doesn’t have much use outside of that

-Sundering is single target control that’s less valuable in most cases than a trip

-Sundering doesn’t help sometimes even in situations where it can be used (Hekatonkyres for example)

So if you want to make a class or prestige class that’s good you need it to consider some or all of the following

-Either deal damage or have a benefit that’s worth lost damage

-Work when fighting something without weapons

-Have some other use, perhaps overcoming DR or reducing AC

-Work when fighting a group

Also, uh, disintegrate is a thing so you do have a spell to compete with.

[Maat Mons]

Another issue with sundering is that there’s no particular reason why anyone can’t carry more than one weapon.

Historically, it was common to carry more than one weapon. Dory + Xiphos. Pilum + Gladius. Katana + Wakizashi, and no, not for dual wielding, thank you very much Complete Warrior. I’ve heard of people carrying three swords, each of a different length, though I can’t recall who they were.

In D&D, there’s even more reason to carry multiple weapons. You need Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing, to deal with DR. You also need Adamantine, Cold Iron, and Silver, to deal with more DR. I always stat my characters out with an ordinary dagger, no matter how high level they are, just so I’m not using my fancy sword to cut ropes or whatever. I also always stat up my characters with an axe, for chopping firewood, but that’s in a Handy Haversack with a blade guard firmly fastened.

[Darg]

A thing that I've seen DMs do, more often than not, is making it to where the merchants and shopkeeps of the realm wont just buy the 15 swords you found clearing a bandit camp just because you want them to. In most cases the loot from random enemies like bandits or even soldiers isn't that much better, if at all, than the player's items already. Even if it is, it doesn't guarantee you'll be able to sell it.

And you aren't sundering the gold or armor anyway so it never ends up mattering.

Enforce carry weight, travel restrictions, and impose realistic burdens on characters. You can't just strap 15 full-sized swords to your body and be able to fight effectively. Nor can you expect enemies to just ignore the bag of holding you dropped just so you can fight. If played properly, sundering most of the items shouldn't be a factor. It's easy enough to add a little extra gold on top of some existent treasure. Or if the fighter is falling behind in wealth drop some fighter appropriate items that are not generally sundered into the loot table to increase their liquid wealth to spend on buying weapons.

It should also be noted that repairing magic items is fairly easy


Repairing Magic Items

Some magic items take damage over the course of an adventure. It costs no more to repair a magic item with the Craft skill than it does to repair its nonmagical counterpart. The make whole spell also repairs a damaged—but not completely broken—magic item.

Now that I've been able to look at my DMG, it even points out specifically swords and shields almost like they end up being damaged for some particular reason....


Some magic items (especially magic weapons and shields) take damage over the course of an adventure.

Also want to point out, nothing says that you can't repair a destroyed magic item. Given the context, the book pointing out that the item loses its magic when destroyed is most likely telling you that it's no longer usable considering that it's fully functional until it's destroyed.

[Jervis]

Enforce carry weight, travel restrictions, and impose realistic burdens on characters. You can't just strap 15 full-sized swords to your body and be able to fight effectively. Nor can you expect enemies to just ignore the bag of holding you dropped just so you can fight. If played properly, sundering most of the items shouldn't be a factor. It's easy enough to add a little extra gold on top of some existent treasure. Or if the fighter is falling behind in wealth drop some fighter appropriate items that are not generally sundered into the loot table to increase their liquid wealth to spend on buying weapons.

It should also be noted that repairing magic items is fairly easy



Now that I've been able to look at my DMG, it even points out specifically swords and shields almost like they end up being damaged for some particular reason....



Also want to point out, nothing says that you can't repair a destroyed magic item. Given the context, the book pointing out that the item loses its magic when destroyed is most likely telling you that it's no longer usable considering that it's fully functional until it's destroyed.

Thing is while random junk swords are pretty worthless masterwork and magic swords very much aren’t and you can actually expect to find a buyer for those. And wearing 15 swords is somewhat unlikely but using 5 isn’t actually that strange. One on your back and a few side arms. If Chad McSunderpants runs up and destroys the random bandits sword then find, he probably has a mace on him which will take another attack to sunder. Meanwhile Grognarf the red mist maker just charged in with pounce and obliterated three bandits in a turn while Chad is busy slapping weapons from the same guy who is in damaged and will probably just run away with all his money and magic items unlooted after Chad broke his weapons. Grognarf however has a anklet of translocation. That’s really the main problem when sundering can be accomplished by people who could probably just blow the enemy up. I guess you could try to sunder component pouches or bags of holding but… why do that isn’t of just hitting them? Sundering exists entirely as a way for DMs to screw with players and not much as a viable player option.

That aside why are you dropping a bag of holding instead of wearing it like you’re suppose to?

[Darg]

Thing is while random junk swords are pretty worthless masterwork and magic swords very much aren’t and you can actually expect to find a buyer for those. And wearing 15 swords is somewhat unlikely but using 5 isn’t actually that strange. One on your back and a few side arms. If Chad McSunderpants runs up and destroys the random bandits sword then find, he probably has a mace on him which will take another attack to sunder. Meanwhile Grognarf the red mist maker just charged in with pounce and obliterated three bandits in a turn while Chad is busy slapping weapons from the same guy who is in damaged and will probably just run away with all his money and magic items unlooted after Chad broke his weapons. Grognarf however has a anklet of translocation. That’s really the main problem when sundering can be accomplished by people who could probably just blow the enemy up. I guess you could try to sunder component pouches or bags of holding but… why do that isn’t of just hitting them? Sundering exists entirely as a way for DMs to screw with players and not much as a viable player option.

That aside why are you dropping a bag of holding instead of wearing it like you’re suppose to?

Well see, you are imploying extra options the PHB doesn't include. Of course the general trend of splats is to improve your damage dealing capability because most people are savage murder hobos. A standard party that doesnt regularly hit above their weight class can find that sunder is a valuable option. An example would be sundering a Balor's vorpal sword as death ward won't protect you from a severed head.

Anyways, you don't "wear" bags of holding


Bag of Holding

This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size.

There aren't any straps for you to use. And it would be a hazard to tie the string to your belt having it drag on the ground bumping your legs. You might be thinking of a handy haversack, but that isn't enough to carry all the loot.

[Jervis]

Well see, you are imploying extra options the PHB doesn't include. Of course the general trend of splats is to improve your damage dealing capability because most people are savage murder hobos. A standard party that doesnt regularly hit above their weight class can find that sunder is a valuable option. An example would be sundering a Balor's vorpal sword as death ward won't protect you from a severed head.

A class optimizing sunder would also be outside of the PHB, homebrew in fact for that matter. And even PHB only has Spirited Charge with a Lance. The PHB also has Disarm, the thing that skips breaking that expensive and powerful Vorpal sword and just knocks it out of their hand. That also has the potential of letting you use it against them, in this case giving you a +1 Vorpal greatsword (well large longsword but the two are equivalent because weapon rules). And all that aside this doesn’t matter if you aren’t playing core only, and almost no on plays core only.


Anyways, you don't "wear" bags of holding



There aren't any straps for you to use. And it would be a hazard to tie the string to your belt having it drag on the ground bumping your legs.

Huh? Backpacks exist. Ropes exist. You can tie it to a rope running around your torso so it effectively just is a backpack. There are a million ways to use it that way, including just using it like a messenger bag by adding straps too it.

[Darg]

I quoted the description of a bag of holding. They are a cloth sack 4x2 ft. That is pretty large. Either 1.33 yards in length or width. Just because artists and players ignore that fact doesn't make them tiny.

The description doesn't include a tie for the opening. This means you need to tie a loose rope around the opening yourself. There is nothing to really tie it to you either.

My main argument was not whether or not sunder was a good use of actions, but rather the myth that sundering your potential loot actually has a large effect on your wealth. It does not.

[Maat Mons]

It's about the same size as the classic military duffel bag (50" x 30" (https://www.amazon.com/Hoplite-Canvas-Multipurpose-Military-Snap-closure/dp/B0859XCLWB/)). Those military bags are a bit annoying to carry with the one shoulder strap they come with. But if you Sovereign Glue proper backpack-style straps to that Bag of Holding, I could see it being quite workable. … Plus, I was 12 the last time I toted my dad's old military bag out camping, so I'm sure big, strong, fully-grown adventurers would have an easier time of things.

[rel]

So I got inspired and wrote up a sunder master class of my own.
Its pretty unpolished, but I quite like it.
It might even be a mundane class that can compete with full casters which is always fun.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iIgy0XK-NBdyds4ocjo72V7-nHrAqRGuW92Vt1ePc4U/edit?usp=sharing

[AsuraKyoko]

Another issue with sundering is that there’s no particular reason why anyone can’t carry more than one weapon.

Historically, it was common to carry more than one weapon. Dory + Xiphos. Pilum + Gladius. Katana + Wakizashi, and no, not for dual wielding, thank you very much Complete Warrior. I’ve heard of people carrying three swords, each of a different length, though I can’t recall who they were.

In D&D, there’s even more reason to carry multiple weapons. You need Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing, to deal with DR. You also need Adamantine, Cold Iron, and Silver, to deal with more DR. I always stat my characters out with an ordinary dagger, no matter how high level they are, just so I’m not using my fancy sword to cut ropes or whatever. I also always stat up my characters with an axe, for chopping firewood, but that’s in a Handy Haversack with a blade guard firmly fastened.

One of the greatest Japanese swordfighters to ever live, Miyamoto Musashi, was famous for dual wielding, actually (though that was hardly the only way he fought). He also strongly advocated for carrying multiple different weapons and using the one that fits the situation best, comparing being a warrior to being a carpenter. To paraphrase: "a master carpenter knows all of their tools and their appropriate uses, and thus a warrior should do the same."

The vast majority of samurai did not dual-wield, though; Musashi was an unusual case in many ways.

[Darg]

To be fair, Japanese sword fighting evolved from spear fighting and was used primarily for dueling purposes. Held shields never really caught on and so culturally the idea of dual wielding anything was pretty novel. This leads to one of the biggest advantages of using two weapons: using one to parry or guard. In a culture where using single weapons was prominent, using two would be a huge.

[Jervis]

So I got inspired and wrote up a sunder master class of my own.
Its pretty unpolished, but I quite like it.
It might even be a mundane class that can compete with full casters which is always fun.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iIgy0XK-NBdyds4ocjo72V7-nHrAqRGuW92Vt1ePc4U/edit?usp=sharing

Interesting. First thought is that this would be broken in gestalt because of the dragon RHD equivalent chassis. By itself i’m not sure how it would play, seems interesting as a concept though. Overcoming DR alone is a good reason for a melee character take levels and the two capstones are a amazing. It’s a better version of island of time every round and level 19 gives a at will dimension door.

[rel]

Interesting. First thought is that this would be broken in gestalt because of the dragon RHD equivalent chassis. By itself i’m not sure how it would play, seems interesting as a concept though. Overcoming DR alone is a good reason for a melee character take levels and the two capstones are a amazing. It’s a better version of island of time every round and level 19 gives a at will dimension door.

Not quite Dimension door, something better!

I don't know enough about gestalt to comment on the balance in that scenario.

I think the capstone abilities could benefit from being broken up more like the earlier abilities, with some of their functionality coming online at earlier levels. I'm not happy about when certain abilities come online, but I can't see an obvious way to reorder things.
And I think the class suffers from me trying to include a single new feature at every level, having abilities appear when they would be useful even if it meant dead / crowded levels would probaby make the class better overall.

In any case, it's done for now. Hopefully I can convince my players to try it.