Shadow Monk/Druid

[elyktsorb]

Was thinking recently about a Shadow Monk build, and ways to be able to see in Darkness to take advantage of it.

When I thought about being a Druid and just turning into a creature with Blindsight. Which led me to the two obvious choices of Moon or Spore. Spore for spore damage, Moon for better forms.

Was curious as to what others think of the viability of such a thing and if there's any point to it, sinceyou could just take a level of fighter for blind fighting, or various other methods.

[RogueJK]

A Spore Druid won't have combat-effective Wild Shape forms. Non-Moon Druid's Wild Shape is for out of combat exploration/scouting, since they're too squishy for combat.

A Moon Druid whose levels are diluted with Monk levels won't have combat-effective Wild Shape forms. Moon Druid need to stick to Druid levels in order for their Combat Wild Shape to keep up with enemy scaling, and even without multiclassing will experience levels where their forms are still behind the power curve.

So this Wild Shaped Shadow Monk idea isn't very viable.


If you want a Shadow Monk who can see in Darkness, you can take 2 levels of Warlock (or the Eldritch Adept feat) for Devil's Sight. Or take a level of Fighter (or the Fighting Initiate feat) for the Blind Fighting style. Or take 2 levels of Ranger for the Blind Fighting style. Of the three multiclasses, the Fighter 1 route is the easiest and likely best option, with Ranger requiring a bit more investment, and Warlock being even more MAD on an already MAD Monk chassis. If you're going VHuman/CLineage you can more easily just take the Eldritch Adept feat at 1st level, otherwise Monks can't really spare the feat since they're pretty ASI-starved as it is.

For an example of a solid Blind Fighting Shadow Monk/Fighter build, take a look at LudicSavant's "Demonweb Spider Monk": https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831

[Catullus64]

RogueJK is being no fun, and he's confused viable with optimal. You have to go a long way in this edition to make something that's not viable.

Giant Spider is probably your ideal choice for starters. CR 1, meaning you can turn into one from Moon Druid Level 2, and it's got Blindsight. But as you get up in levels and start to want stronger Beast forms, it may be worth dipping Fighter or spending a Feat for that Blind Fighting, as you say. Or Eldritch Adept for Devil's Sight, that's even better. I assume you're aware that default rules interactions won't let you use your Martial Arts in Wild Shape, but your other Monk features should mostly be good to go; Ki, Unarmored Defense + Movement, Stunning Strike, the works. Just remember to cast your Darkness before shifting, and to have an object that can remain on your animal form to cast it on.

Oooh, and be a Drow. Spider Theming + extra Darkness is a tasty combination.

[RogueJK]

Oooh, and be a Drow. Spider Theming + extra Darkness is a tasty combination.

Or a Half-Drow. The Half-Elf's extra +1 stat bonus helps with the Monk's MADness, you still get Drow spellcasting for an extra Darkness per day, plus you get to avoid Drow's Sunlight Sensitivity. You just don't get Drow's Weapon Proficiencies (not needed here) or double Darkvision range, or the full Elf's additional Perception proficiency or Trance ability.

[elyktsorb]

I assume you're aware that default rules interactions won't let you use your Martial Arts in Wild Shape

Can you not use unarmed strikes in wildshape? I know they aren't the normal beasts attacks like that, those don't count towards it.

[RogueJK]

Any creature can make Unarmed Strikes.

The sticky wicket is that Martial Arts reads that "You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield."

A Wild Shaped Druid isn't wearing armor or wielding a shield, but their Wild Shape form's natural weapons aren't Monk weapons. So it will come down to your DM's ruling on whether a Wild Shape form equipped with natural weapons is "unarmed".

To put it another way: We already know that in general natural weapon attacks aren't unarmed strikes (barring some specific exceptions that explicitly allow this, like Tabaxi/Lizardfolk/Minotaur race or the Alter Self spell). But does merely having these Wild Shape natural weapons count as being "armed"?


Personally, I'd allow a Wild Shaped Druid/Monk to access the Martial Arts abilities, but obviously the Bonus Action attack would only trigger if you make Unarmed Strikes rather than using your natural weapon attacks.

[LudicSavant]

The main obstacle is that natural weapons don’t count as unarmed strikes. There’s an SAC on it and all.

You probably can’t use Dedicated Weapon either because natural weapons aren’t a simple or martial weapon.

I really wish natural attacks / unarmed strikes weren’t such an unnecessarily complicated jank salad in 5e…

[Sparky McDibben]

Have the party bard channel their inner Wu-Tang Clan and open their next spell "Spider Style!....Spider Style!"

In all honesty, pitch the Druid/Monk-able-to-use-natural-weapons-as-unarmed-strikes to your DM. I'd 100% at least be willing to give it a shot.

[Sorinth]

Even if you don't get the martial arts BA attack when attacking with natural weapons, you would still be able to Flurry because it doesn't have the same wording about requiring monk weapons/unarmed strikes.

[RogueJK]

Even if you don't get the martial arts BA attack when attacking with natural weapons, you would still be able to Flurry because it doesn't have the same wording about requiring monk weapons/unarmed strikes.

Correct.

However, Martial Arts is more than just a Bonus Action attack. You lose access to all of it if you don't meet the criteria. This includes using DEX for unarmed strikes as well as gaining your boosted unarmed strike damage, meaning being back to 1+STRMOD for a basic unarmed strike.

So if you don't qualify for the Martial Arts abilities because you're armed with a non-monk weapon, or are wearing armor or a shield, you can still Flurry but you'd be making two STR-based 1+STRMOD unarmed strikes as your Flurry.


Martial Arts

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:

-You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

-You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.

-When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn.

[strangebloke]

The main obstacle is that natural weapons don’t count as unarmed strikes. There’s an SAC on it and all.

You probably can’t use Dedicated Weapon either because natural weapons aren’t a simple or martial weapon.

I really wish natural attacks / unarmed strikes weren’t such an unnecessarily complicated jank salad in 5e…

I agree, you could do some really cool things if natural weapons could be used as unarmed strikes. Being able to use moon druid circle forms with flurry would be insane.

My favorite example here is the Giant Elk (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16882-giant-elk). The Giant Elk can be shifted into by a 6th level moon druid or better, and is clearly and obviously balanced around only getting one attack a turn. A ram attack on a charge deals 4d6+4 (18) damage, and applies a save-or-fall-prone effect. If they do fall prone, you can instead switch to the 'hooves' weapon, which deals 4d8+4 (22) damage. While it would require a pretty high level character to pull off (level 11 at the earliest) if natural weapon attacks could be used for unarmed strikes you could get a monk charging and flurrying for something like 80 (very accurate) damage in a turn.

Its a multiclass that would be cool, powerful, and flavorful without (at least IMO) being really overpowered for the tier of play you're looking at here.

But even without the above, a moon druid monk is pretty good, at least imo. Monk abilities are strong, and nearly all still work while wild-shaped. To look at the Elk above, you would still get the 'unarmored movement' ability, rocketing your speed to 70. You still get unarmored AC, which would improve the Elk's AC from 14 to 17-19 depending on your WIS investment. You can still use flurry, it will just be a normal unarmed strike (admittedly missing some scaling) and you can still use patient defense, step of the wind, stunning strike, deflect missiles, extra attack, and your normal MA attack. The extra hp from wildshape is really useful on a class that normally struggles with low(ish) hp.

But I don't really favor shadow monk here. There aren't many Druid forms with blindsense (are there any?) and multiclassing means you don't have tons of ki to spend on things like darkness. So it just doesn't feel like an efficient way to do the darkness gimmick, and as a druid you have access to PWT anyway. Personally I would favor Mercy, its simply very strong, but astral and open hand have niche uses as well.

Correct.

However, Martial Arts is more than just a Bonus Action attack. You lose access to all of it if you don't meet the criteria. This includes using DEX for unarmed strikes as well as gaining your boosted unarmed strike damage, meaning being back to 1+STRMOD for a basic unarmed strike.

So if you don't qualify for the Martial Arts abilities because you're armed with a non-monk weapon, or are wearing armor or a shield, you can still Flurry but you'd be making two STR-based 1+STRMOD unarmed strikes as your Flurry.

EDIT: saw that you explained this above. Personally, I think it'd be a very overbearing ruling to argue that a centaur or a lizardfolk can't use MA because they have a natural weapon. This strict reading would preclude even Natural Weapons that explicitly can be used with unarmed strikes since the lizardfolk for example is still "armed with a non-monk natural weapon."

[Sorinth]

Correct.

However, Martial Arts is more than just a Bonus Action attack. You lose access to all of it if you don't meet the criteria. This includes using DEX for unarmed strikes as well as gaining your boosted unarmed strike damage, meaning being back to 1+STRMOD for a basic unarmed strike.

So if you don't qualify for the Martial Arts abilities because you're armed with a non-monk weapon, or are wearing armor or a shield, you can still Flurry but you'd be making two STR-based 1+STRMOD unarmed strikes as your Flurry.

Ah your right. I guess spend your Ki on Patient Defence in that case.

[x3n0n]

There aren't many Druid forms with blindsense (are there any?)

A couple of note in MM:

CR 1: Giant Spider
CR 2, swimming: Giant Constrictor Snake

So a Moon 2 dip gets you "Blind Fighting while in Wild Shape" (along with the other fun Druid stuff), which seems like fun times in any obscurement-friendly party, regardless of Monk.

[werescythe]

While taking a wildshape with blindsight is a great choice (and if you want to then by all means go for it), might I also suggesting multiclassing druid (pick whichever subclass you want) and take the Eldritch Adapt feat and choose the Devil Sight invocation. This way you can see in your darkness but don't necessarily have to take a form with blindsight.

Just an option I wanted to throw out there.

[Keravath]

If the goal is to get darkvision to be able to use the shadow monk teleport for a race that doesn't have darkvision then one level of twilight cleric goes a long way. Goggles of night is another option.

The blind fighting style has a very limited 10' range so doesn't really synergize with the shadow monk abilities though you could get the fighting style with a feat if desired.

There is also nothing wrong with the moon druid options but the problem there is that both moon druid and monk work best with lots of levels in the one class. Moon druid advances their forms available while monk picks up the level 14 ability to be proficient with all saving throws as well as other features along the way.

[x3n0n]

A couple of note in MM:

CR 1: Giant Spider
CR 2, swimming: Giant Constrictor Snake

So a Moon 2 dip gets you "Blind Fighting while in Wild Shape" (along with the other fun Druid stuff), which seems like fun times in any obscurement-friendly party, regardless of Monk.

Having thought more about this, this seems like a lot of fun, assuming that the DM agrees that Wild Shape is compatible with Martial Arts and Unarmed Defense.
A little bit of casting seems like it would go a LONG way on a Monk, as do the extra HP of big Wild Shapes. (Absorb Elements fills one of the durability gaps when not in Wild Shape, as do Shield or Silvery Barbs via MPMM Githzerai or Fey Touched.) Guidance gives you easy utility out of combat.

Progression (Moon 2, Monk 5+):
V.Human, Resilient(Con) (or really any feat), 14 or 16 Dex, 14 or 16 Con, 16 or 17 Wis, 8 Str. (Or Custom Lineage, any Wis half-feat, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Wis.)
Druid 1: Guidance, probably Magic Stone.
Druid (Moon) 2: As well-established, we're WAY over the power curve here. Wild Shapes to note going forward for offensive capabilities: Brown Bear, Giant Spider (which already combos with Fog Cloud), Dire Wolf
Monk 1: Unarmed Defense kicks in, which GREATLY improves your durability in Wild Shape, and your non-Bear forms can Unarmed Strike at +5 for d4+3, and then again as a bonus action.
Monk 2: ki comes online, and all 3 options can be relevant. (Patient Defense plus Multiattack? Flurry with Blindsight- or Pack-Tactics-driven advantage?) Unarmored Movement comes online as well.
Monk 3: Pick a tradition.
* Shadow gets you Darkness and PWT (and Darkvision for your Wild Shapes, refreshing ki on a short rest)
* Astral Self seems GREAT here, especially starting next level when we can bump Wis. Also gives you non-BPS damage in Wild Shape so you don't need to wait until Moon/Monk 6 to deal with resistance.
* Mercy seems fine, letting you heal people and "smite" while in Wild Shape.
Monk 4: Bump Wis; this improves your AC (in and out of Wild Shape) and improves your offense if you're Astral Self (or throwing Magic Stones).
Monk 5: Extra Attack and Stunning Strike and d6 unarmed strikes. Assuming you've taken Athletics proficiency (or even Expertise via Skill Expert), your Brown Bear is quite good at Shove/Grapple shenanigans.

From here, it seems like you can pick whether to follow the Moon route for better casting and slots and eventual shapes, or the Monk route for various Monk things (more ki, subclass features, Evasion, eventual d8 unarmed strikes, etc).

[elyktsorb]

* Astral Self seems GREAT here, especially starting next level when we can bump Wis. Also gives you non-BPS damage in Wild Shape so you don't need to wait until Moon/Monk 6 to deal with resistance.


Mm.. I hadn't even considered this yet, and am now deeply interested in this.

[x3n0n]

Mm.. I hadn't even considered this yet, and am now deeply interested in this.

Having thought a bit more about this, most Moon/Monks will probably want to get to Druid 3 for second-level spells. For example, non-Shadow will probably want pass without trace; non-Mercy: lesser restoration; people who took Athletics: hazard spells, especially spike growth.