New to 5e. Need help with L5 one-off.

[Barstro]

I may be joining a 5e one-off that is expected to be level 5.

My most recent experience is several Pathfinder 1 campaigns. I briefly read through some 5e rules and learned enough to know that I need help. I expect this will be my only time playing 5e, so I will not go through my usual pattern of reading whatever I can, hypothesizing about several characters, reading dozens of forum posts for rules/interactions/etc. I do not need another addiction.

If possible, I would like some basic advice to at least prevent me from making major errors or misunderstanding some rules. (eg. It took me a long time to realize why Variant Human's bonus feat gave me only a single feat at level one). I read on some forum that class-level-5 is a major upgrade, so multiclassing is discouraged. But Skrum's current posts suggests that there might be decent multiclassing up to 5.

I do not know what house rules are in play. Variant Human might not even be a thing with them, not sure if they ported 3.5 flanking, etc.
I do not know if the party will have magic weapons/armor/items or if they are a "rest for an hour after every fight" party.
The only thing I know about the party is that they have a cleric. So at least I do not need to worry about healing.

Assumptions I am making (please correct me where wrong)
1) I read on some forum that class-level-5 is a major upgrade, so multiclassing is discouraged. But Skrum's current posts suggests that there might be decent multiclassing up to 5, so I could be wrong.
2) At level 5, tiers do not mean much; so going pure/mostly martial will not be a detriment to the party.
3) At level 5, party buffs and field control is limited or short duration, so no reason to go into that.

I expect to make three characters so I can fill whatever void I want when I learn the party makeup. Since it is a one-off, I want to play what I normally would not. Interested in martial (mundane or maybe Warlock. I would like a range option too (idea that just popped in my head is a knife thrower with familiar/pet) At present, I am most intrigued by Rogue->Swashbuckler. This looks like decent damage and survivability where I fight with the team or run to the other side of the room to fight away from the team.

Anyway; anything I should know about the system, or any suggestions?
(I realize my question is pretty much "I just learned there is a thing called 'flour', what can anyone tell me about baking?" I know it is all over the place and asking a lot)

Thanks, all.

[Psyren]

At level 5, most martial classes get a big boost in damage from the "Extra Attack" feature. So you can expect Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian and Monk to get a nice spike at this level. Casters also get a boost because most cantrips upgrade from 1dX to 2dX, and both full casters and half-casters will have a new spell level (2nd or 3rd.) Everyone will have their subclass and their first ability score increase (or feat) by this point as well.

One of the big things I would keep in mind for a 3.5 player coming to 5e is that two of the biggest measurements of character progression - skill ranks and BAB - are completely gone in 5e. All attacks instead get the same bonus to hit (proficiency bonus and ability modifier) regardless of your class or number of attacks. Similarly, "skills" are just ability checks that get the same proficiency bonus added if you're proficient (trained) in that skill.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, level 5 is a big deal. 3rd level spells for casters are insanely strong compared to 2nd level spells for casters, and extra attack basically boosts DPR by 100% or 50% for martial characters. So in general mono-class builds are ahead of everything at 5th level except a few really complicated multiclass builds. Adding to this, there are only "tiers" in the PF or 3.5 sense once you get past level 10 or so, and even then they really only show up if casters know which the good spells are. A wizard taking Mordenkainen's sword isn't outpacing anyone. So just don't worry about optimization at level 5.

The second big thing is,

But mostly, just don't make assumptions that something with the same name does the same thing. To take rogues as an example, uncanny dodge is completely different.

IMO? Go soul knife. It's pretty simple, kinda busted, and perfectly fits your requirement of 'knife thrower.' You throw psychic knives and deal lots of damage.

If you want something a bit more complex, go battlemaster, its a really solid introduction to 5e from PF imo. Build for dex if you want a ranged attack, since you can swap between rapier+shield and bow pretty seemlessly. The flexibility involved will feel really novel to you coming from pathfinder. The sharpshooter feat with the BM maneuver precision attack is a really basic effective combo, but things like Ambush and trip attack and commanding presence and even commander's striker are all really solid.

[Barstro]

Thank you both!

To clarify my post; I am leaning towards melee. Knife thrower would be choice three. Will definitely consider Soul Knife.

[tiornys]

The main combo that enables several strong multiclass builds at L5 is Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast. This works because Eldritch Blast is unique among cantrips in that it scales the number of attacks instead of the damage dice, and Agonizing Blast brings each attack up to weapon-level damage instead of cantrip-level damage. Therefore this offers the Eldritch Blast user a similar boost as Extra Attack when they hit character level 5. EB + AB is most commonly accessed by 2 levels of Warlock, which also gets you a 2nd invocation and a 2nd short rest spell slot. Warlock 1 + Eldritch Adept is another way to get it.

Rule of thumb for L5 one-shot play: have Extra Attack, or have L3 spells, or have EB + AB, or be a straight Rogue. If you lack all of those you're underpowered. If you have Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade with a good melee attack, or if you have L3 spell slots and decent L1/L2 spells to upcast with those slots, you're only a little underpowered. If you have none of the above you're significantly underpowered. In most games you can be a little underpowered without much trouble, and in many you're even ok being significantly underpowered, but as a first time player it's best to aim for the expected power level.

I recommend building a Warlock (anything except Undying; Celestial or Fiend are the most straightforward. edit: for melee Warlock go Hexblade Pact of the Blade), a Rogue (Swashbuckler is fine), and a Fighter (Battlemaster or Rune Knight).

[Kane0]

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- Attacking does not impede your ability to move (ie ‘Full Attack’) and you can in fact move between attacks if you have multiple.
- Attacks are classified oddly but they mostly boil down to a combination of [melee or ranged] and [weapon or spell]
- You cannot delay your turn, only ready an action.
- By default only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and -2s.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.

- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There are expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to in balancing short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.

- Concentration is a thing casters should learn well. Most buff, debuff and control spells need concentration, and you can only concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- There are relatively few permanent or near-permanent bonuses/buffs
- All casting is 'spontaneous', as in you don’t put individual spells into slots, you just have a collection of spells available to you and spell slots to fuel them with. Your spells will either be prepared or known based on class.
- High casting stat doesn’t give you additional spell slots, but does affect your spell attack bonus and spell DC (which is the same across all spell levels).
- Spells scale by spell slot rather than by caster level, which makes multiclassing considerably more friendly for casters
- Cantrips are notable now, offering viable damage output based on PC level not caster level
- There is a rule that restricts how many levelled spells you can cast on your turn, but it’s… complicated.

- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Encounter design and challenge rating is also different. A CR 6 enemy is an easy (little resource expenditure & low chance of falling) challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not an easy challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters during an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.


In general, for level 5 characters avoid multiclassing martials because Extra Attack is a big deal. Casters dont care as much because cantrips scale regardless but they will still sting for missing 3rd level spells, slots or both. Most will only have 1 feat from the level 4 ASI or being a variant human. Playing caster or martial is up to you, theyre both perfectly viable even without maxxed primary stats. There are low level BFC that is still really great, such as Web.

For your specific character, Soulknife makes for a great rogue knife thrower, and there is the battlemaster fighter using the quick toss maneuver and thrown fighting style. Warlocks can be built to do pretty much anything.

[Eldariel]

On level 5 (and in general), CC is absolutely very, very good. So don't look down on Wizard, Cleric or Druid on that front.

One of the most changed and coolest classes in 5e is Bard so I definitely recommend putting it on your list of options: Lore, Eloquence, Glamour are all cool. They are now full casters with solid skill and inspiration options:plenty of fun to play with lots of good spells from all lists.

[da newt]

It's easy to build a good PC in 5e, it's hard to go wrong, so don't stress about it.

For a fairly simple but plenty effective melee martial a Battle Master or Rune Knight fighter w/ the PoleArmMaster feat wielding a spear and shield with the dueling fighting style (+2 damage to every hit) works really well. The PAM feat allows for a bonus action attack every round and also an opportunity attack reaction once per round when an enemy steps into your melee range (5'), and with a shield and heavy armor your AC will be very good too.

[sambojin]

I'd probably do something similar to the above, but with an vhuman Oath of Vengeance Paladin. I wouldn't even ASI it, I'd take PAM and Fey-touched (bless), because the extra spell slots really do force you to not just smite away all day. Unless you should. But you'll still Bless and Misty Step at some point.

Gives a bit of short rest (divinity)/ long rest (spell slots/ smite) resource show, a bit of the various action economies (bonus divinity or PAM attack? Reach foibles and moves in between depending on weapon used). A touch of spell knowledge and how important advantage is and the wonderfully bounded system of 5e for attacks and saves. Enough attacks to grapple a little. And no truly stacked bonuses, to show that most characters can do a bit of everything, even with +1/+3 stat mods.

And that in the end, increasing party DPR is usually worth more than increasing you own. Unless you're a Paladin that is about to auto-crit some huge smites, in which case, it shouldn't really be you doing that for you. But you can.

If you're going to "learn" any class, it's pretty hard to go wrong with a Vengeance Pally. Or a Rune Knight or Battlemaster, but Paladin has a surprisingly low difficulty curve for awesomeness to happen with.

[Barstro]

Thank you, all. Much more information than I thought I would receive.

In case it changes anything;
If I go melee, it would be light armor with at most a buckler. Possibly medium armor, certainly not heavy armor. Polearm does not fit any of my concepts.

I am more concerned with serviceability than damage. But I do want damage to be greater than “how cute, you hit him”.

[Frogreaver]

If you want stand in your face melee then Paladin is one of your best.

An high elf rogue swashbuckler with booming blade cantrip would be nice.

I’d avoid monk as you won’t have magic fists yet and if everyone else has magic weapons you’ll be weak.

Any barbarian is good.

Fighters are solid but you’ve got to pick a good subclass.

Hexblade warlock will feel strong.

Rangers don’t generally make great melee warriors.

Artificers make solid melee characters. Armorer or battle smith (and can grant some magic items to the party).

[Psyren]

If I go melee, it would be light armor with at most a buckler. Possibly medium armor, certainly not heavy armor. Polearm does not fit any of my concepts.

I don't believe there is a "buckler" in 5e. You either have a shield (taking up that hand and blocking TWF/2HF) or you don't. So since you don't want a polearm, your big choice for melee is sword-and-board, TWF, einhander, or unarmed/natural.


I am more concerned with serviceability than damage. But I do want damage to be greater than “how cute, you hit him”.

Could you continue ruling things out that don't fit the character? For example, other options from the melee styles I listed, or maybe saying whether crossbows or bows are out as well, or whether you're against a specific flavor of spellcasting. That would definitely help us get away from "flour" to showing you how to bake a few things :smallsmile:

[strangebloke]

Thank you, all. Much more information than I thought I would receive.

In case it changes anything;
If I go melee, it would be light armor with at most a buckler. Possibly medium armor, certainly not heavy armor. Polearm does not fit any of my concepts.

I am more concerned with serviceability than damage. But I do want damage to be greater than “how cute, you hit him”.

You basically can't avoid dealing decent damage as a martial in 5e, unless you're doing something stupid like wielding a greatsword with negative strength.

You probably want light armor if you're a dex character. It ends up being almost strictly better if you are improving dexterity first. You can get a little higher AC with medium armor at some levels, but it barely matters and it makes you get disadvantage in stealth, which is really punishing.

I don't know what books you have access to, but I'll assume PHB only, with feats allowed (this is technically an optional rule, but a very common one) Here's a freebie:

Wood Elf Battlemaster Fighter 5
17 Dex, 14 Con, 15 or 16 Wis, other stats irrelevant
At level 1 pick "duelist" style for +2 damage to all one-handed attacks
At level 3 pick "trip attack," "goading attack," "riposte" as maneuvers
At level 4 split your Ability score between Dex and another stat.

The basic plan here is to be a control character. You can trip someone and get advantage (and give it to allies) or you can use maneuvers to encourage them to attack you. When they do attack you, you can use riposte sometimes for an extra attack. If other books are on the table, look up the Ambush or Brace maneuvers to replace goading, as well as the elven accuracy feat.

[Barstro]

Thanks.

Ok also do not know what books are available. My guess ids that of information is readily available online then I may use it n

Ideas given so far that call out to me;

Swashbuckler.
Psy Knife
Strangebloke’s Battle Master
Hex blade

Not too interested on bows. Mildly interested in hand crossbows if they are a thing in 5e.

You all have given me a lot to consider and read. Thank you.

[J-H]

Anything single-class is fine unless it's Four Elements Monk or old Beastmaster ranger.

Swashbuckler is good, typically best making an off-hand attack for a second shot at landing your sneak attack; this is fine and doesn't require feat investment to be decent.

Paladin is good if you want a more heavy-armored option. You get a few spells/smites, good saves, and some healing.

[Kane0]

Ok also do not know what books are available. My guess ids that of information is readily available online then I may use it n

Ideas given so far that call out to me;
Swashbuckler.
Psy Knife
Strangebloke’s Battle Master
Hex blade


The only books/reference you need to ask are:
- Are PHB feats/multiclassing enabled
- Is Xanathar's in play
- Is Tasha's in play and if so, what options

If you can give us an idea of what you'd like to play we can help you build it (probably about half a dozen builds within an hour, we're very efficient)

Edit: In terms of melee, Hexblade (Warlock) is unique in that it allows you to fight in melee using CHA as your attack stat. Same goes for Artificer using INT. For actual DEX melee attackers you have Rogue, Fighter, Ranger and to a lesser extent Paladin and Monk which all have their pros and cons depending on what takes your fancy.

[strangebloke]

Thanks.

Ok also do not know what books are available. My guess ids that of information is readily available online then I may use it now
There are only three truly vital books here. Tashas, Xanathar's, and the PHB. Everything else is racial feats or background or spells.

But if you're only able to use stuff legally available for free online... your options are very limited. I would probably play a fiend warlock. Straightforward and strong at level five, just spam fireball and eldritch blast.