Optimizing Overpowering Attack acf without AoO's

[flappeercraft]

So I'm basically looking if there is any use for Overpowering Attack (PHB 2; p45) other than AoO builds. It doesn't even have to be super viable, just looking for anywhere it does much of anything.

Notably, I only notice that it somewhat mitigates the problem of iteratives missing, and also deals the damage of two attacks and has DR and hardness only applied once on it. Also it might be able to mix in well with certain once per turn class features or feats but I haven't been able to really find any interesting ones.

Perhaps it could be useful if one manages to do a Coup de Grace in the same round or somehow (despite both being Full-round actions) as your Overpowering Attack to increase the fort save DC?

[Silva Stormrage]

It's not super great but lightning maces are another way of getting more attacks if you wanted to try and get more attacks other than AOOs. It doesn't have the best success chance due to being unable to get more than a like 13-20 crit range.

Using belt of battle to give yourself another set of full attacks also helps.

I am unsure if a whirling weapon actually works for this, I forget the exact wording of the weapon enchantment and I am AFBs. But if it does work with this AOO you can attack everyone within range once for double damage.

[NinjaGuy]

Unfortunately as it is its own full round action it can't be combined with other actions like a charge, nor would it be a good idea to crit fishing when you're limiting your full attack to a single attack*, as you need more attacks to trigger more attacks. Being that it's a full round action you'll only have a swift action left, and should likely use that for movement (Travel Devotion or the like) as it'll be unlikely that you're always in the right spot to use your tactic.

Your tactic should likely include THFing as it adds multipliers and focuses on numerical bonuses, and bonus damage dice wouldn't multiply. You could go for an Improved Trip/ Knock-down build to get another attack out of it, and throw on Snap Kick for a third, if you're not going to be using a reach weapon.

Thing is, Overpowering Attack and reach weapons work great with AoOs, and under many circumstances would provide you with more attacks than Snap Kick, so why not incorporate the into the build if it's focusing on Overpowering Attack?

Another note is that you can get an incredibly similar benefit from the Decisive Strike Monk option 6 pages later, with MUCH less investment... 16 levels is a lot of Fighter. Monk gets it at first level and by 11th the Monk version is making 2 attacks for the price of 1. Food for thought.

[Saintheart]

So I'm basically looking if there is any use for Overpowering Attack (PHB 2; p45) other than AoO builds. It doesn't even have to be super viable, just looking for anywhere it does much of anything.

Notably, I only notice that it somewhat mitigates the problem of iteratives missing, and also deals the damage of two attacks and has DR and hardness only applied once on it. Also it might be able to mix in well with certain once per turn class features or feats but I haven't been able to really find any interesting ones.

Perhaps it could be useful if one manages to do a Coup de Grace in the same round or somehow (despite both being Full-round actions) as your Overpowering Attack to increase the fort save DC?


As an 'attack', not restricted to melee or ranged, it could:

(1) Be used with Sundering Cleave under Combat Brute;
(2) Work on the three attacks arising from Knock-Down + Improved Trip
(3) Work with Dragon magazine's Targetteer's feature to trade away iterative attacks for a bigger threat range, if the aim is to generate lots of attacks under Lightning Mace

[Twurps]

As you need to spend a full round action to make a single attack, things like pounce, flurry, etc don't do much.
So outside of AoO's, you're looking at damage boosters that either take no action at all, or an action that's compatible with a full round action, ie: swift/immediate actions.
There might be some usefull ToB stances, and some boosts that fit into this category.
Boosts: Burning blade, Burning brand, Searing blade, maybe others
Stance: Assassin's stance is a classic.
I'm not sure if there's counters that allow you to deal damage in the form of an attack. If so: those might qualify as well.

Another way to sneak out attacks outside of your turn is Shadow Pounce. I know of 2 classes that have it: Crinti shadow marauder, and Telflammer Shadow Lord. As overpowering attack requires fighter 16, you only have 4 levels left to work with, and I don't think it can be done within those levels (Crinti gets it at lvl5, TSL gets it in 4 levels, but requires both sneak attack and some form of spellcasting/SLA's.)


Just as an aside: The 'decisive strike' ACF does pretty much the same. Yes you have to be a monk, and yes you have to use a monk weapon, but you can take it at lvl 1 and save yourself 15 levels of fighter. That's got to count for something right?

Edit: Ninja'd by a ninjaguy! figures...

[flappeercraft]

Ok just found out that the Boomerang Daze dc is based on damage so that would be a good way to daze-lock opponents.

[loky1109]

Since you need to do a full-round attack action to trigger it, I'd dip a level of Barbarian for Pounce.

I don't think it works. Pounce is about full-attack. OPA isn't full-attack, but another full round action.

[pabelfly]

I don't think it works. Pounce is about full-attack. OPA isn't full-attack, but another full round action.

You're right, it's a full-round action so you can't do anything else besides the attack.

[Zombulian]

As with other abilities that include attacking but require a full round action (like the Eldritch Glaive blast shape), being mounted tends to help with how limiting it can be. Riding a warmount in battle is a free action.

[Troacctid]

If you use a mount, you can also multiply your damage further by using a lance. Lances do their bonus damage when the mount you're riding charges, so there's no action conflict.

In addition to Boomerang Daze, there's also Staggering Strike that scales with damage dealt, and the on-hit effect of a ritiik or harpoon.

You can get extra attacks by using a belt of battle, by taking the Snap Kick feat, or by having an ally cast snake's swiftness on you. Several grafts grant a natural attack that can be used as a free action once per turn, including the clawed arm and sting tail. Weapon properties that can grant extra attacks include intercepting, splitting, the specific weapon manyfang dagger, and arguably the specific shield lion's shield. If you can quicken a casting of whirling blade (a bit difficult to do on a 16th-level fighter, but who knows), that potentially gets you multiple extra attacks as a swift action.

[flappeercraft]

So staggering strike and boomerang daze for damage scaled saves, anyone know any others?

[Saintheart]

So staggering strike and boomerang daze for damage scaled saves, anyone know any others?

Brutal Strike (PHB 2, p.76) does, but only on the extra damage coming from Power Attack specifically ... albeit maybe it can be cheesed to suggest the doubled Power Attack from Overwhelming Attack is what the Brutal Strike keys off?

[Twurps]

Brutal Strike (PHB 2, p.76) does, but only on the extra damage coming from Power Attack specifically ... albeit maybe it can be cheesed to suggest the doubled Power Attack from Overwhelming Attack is what the Brutal Strike keys off?

I'm usually more lactose intolerant than most in RAW debates, but I think this should fly (both RAW and RAI. I would certainly allow it at my table.)

[liquidformat]

I was under the assumption that Elusive Target, Counter Attack, and Overwhelming Attack could all be combined together, though reading through each I am unsure if that is the case.

Anyways I have always thought Overwhelming Attack was a decent choice to use in combination of improved Trip and Knock-Down.

[Saintheart]

So staggering strike and boomerang daze for damage scaled saves, anyone know any others?

Also, while I was browsing for something else - Awesome Blow's Reflex DC is equal to the damage delivered. The requirements to pick it up are not cheap - STR 25, Large size, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush - but since we're talking about a single overpowering strike anyway at around Fighter level 16, you might as well take a -4 on attack, skittle the opponent and leave him prone 10 feet away from you as well.

[flappeercraft]

Also, while I was browsing for something else - Awesome Blow's Reflex DC is equal to the damage delivered. The requirements to pick it up are not cheap - STR 25, Large size, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush - but since we're talking about a single overpowering strike anyway at around Fighter level 16, you might as well take a -4 on attack, skittle the opponent and leave him prone 10 feet away from you as well.

Oooh nice find. I mean I’m ok with anything no matter how unviable as long as its theoretically possible. Even if its a monster ability or would require you to have fifty levels or whatever normally. Just looking for what’s theoretically possible.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Knock-Down, Improved Trip, and the dungeon crasher ACF all drop an opponent by knocking them over, which should enable Cleave (since Cleave doesn't specify "kill," just "drop," with killing being merely an example) and thus Great Cleave. Boost your size (and thus reach) to excessive amounts, and really push your Great Cleave attempts as much as possible. Stack on AoOs, Snap Kick, and haste (or the Speed enhancement), and you should have a decent amount going for you.

Also, a single attack for a hydra is all of its heads, so polymorph or metamorphosis time?

[Maat Mons]

Awesome Blow is a standard action to use, so it's not compatible with Overpowering Attack. The only people who can do an Awesome Blow as part of another action are Fangshields Barbarians (Champions of Valor, p40), and then only as part of a charge, so it's still incompatible with Overpowering Attack.

[flappeercraft]

Awesome Blow is a standard action to use, so it's not compatible with Overpowering Attack. The only people who can do an Awesome Blow as part of another action are Fangshields Barbarians (Champions of Valor, p40), and then only as part of a charge, so it's still incompatible with Overpowering Attack.

I mean not really incompatible. If you have a belt of battle it's doable since the damage doubling lasts the entire round.

[Telonius]

A friend with White Raven Tactics could help out, depending on how you want to parse "your next turn."

[NinjaGuy]

Edit: Ninja'd by a ninjaguy! figures...

Hahahah Don't feel bad, it's my specialty, even if it is a first.


I was under the assumption that Elusive Target, Counter Attack, and Overwhelming Attack could all be combined together, though reading through each I am unsure if that is the case.

They can't, but should be houseruled to stack to help make it a bit more worth the 16 levels of Fighter.

I think the Boomerang Daze/ Ricochet might be the best use of it, as the range helps get it off consistently with the lack of movement. The only issue is then how to pump that base damage to then double it? It's easy to two-hand a weapon in melee and Power Attack to pump up the damage, but less so for the boomerang.

[flappeercraft]

So basically other than extra attacks its viable for boomerang daze, awesome blow, staggering strike and coup de grace. Is anyone able to think of anything else?

[Lans]

Would getting polymorphed into a hydra work?

[loky1109]

So basically other than extra attacks its viable for boomerang daze, awesome blow, staggering strike and coup de grace. Is anyone able to think of anything else?

Doesn't work with awesome blow and coup de grace.


Would getting polymorphed into a hydra work?
Should.

[flappeercraft]

Doesn't work with awesome blow and coup de grace.

It does as long as you can get a second full round action like via Belt of Battle, contingent greater celerity, debatably WRT, and so many other ways.

[loky1109]

It does as long as you can get a second full round action like via Belt of Battle, contingent greater celerity, debatably WRT, and so many other ways.

Well, why you didn't mention regular full-attack?