Can I be a Starry T-Rex in 5E?

[follacchioso]

The spell Polymorph is probably not the strongest 4th level spell around, but sure it is a lot of fun.

One problem with this spell is that the target assumes the statistics of the new form, including stats and saving throws proficiencies, and so on. This makes it more difficult to play it effectively on yourself, as you will have to rely on the new form's CON saves for concentration rolls, and these are rarely better than a +5.

Let's say for example, a druid casts polymorph on themselves to become a Tyrannosaurus Rex. This provides them a tons of HP, powerful melee attacks, but also a very low AC and +4 CON saves, making it difficult to maintain the form until the end of the spell. They are very likely to be hit, and fail the concentration roll.

Are there any ways to improve the durability of this?

One option could be to be a Circle of the Stars Druid, and activate the Dragon starry form before casting polymorph.

By raw, this constellation allows to threat any Concentration roll as a minimum of 10, making it much easier for the T-Rex to maintain the form.

However, the spell Polymorph says that the target assumes the statistics of the new form. Does this apply to class features that are activated before casting polymorph? Would this work, by RAW?

[Unoriginal]

The spell Polymorph is probably not the strongest 4th level spell around, but sure it is a lot of fun.

One problem with this spell is that the target assumes the statistics of the new form, including stats and saving throws proficiencies, and so on. This makes it more difficult to play it effectively on yourself, as you will have to rely on the new form's CON saves for concentration rolls, and these are rarely better than a +5.

Let's say for example, a druid casts polymorph on themselves to become a Tyrannosaurus Rex. This provides them a tons of HP, powerful melee attacks, but also a very low AC and +4 CON saves, making it difficult to maintain the form until the end of the spell. They are very likely to be hit, and fail the concentration roll.

Are there any ways to improve the durability of this?

One option could be to be a Circle of the Stars Druid, and activate the Dragon starry form before casting polymorph.

By raw, this constellation allows to threat any Concentration roll as a minimum of 10, making it much easier for the T-Rex to maintain the form.

However, the spell Polymorph says that the target assumes the statistics of the new form. Does this apply to class features that are activated before casting polymorph? Would this work, by RAW?

With Polymorph, the whole charsheet is replaced by the creature's statblock, save for the exceptions noted in the spell. The T. Rex does not have the Star form on its statblock, therefore it is suppressed as long as the Druid is Polymorphed.

That being said, isn't a +4/+5 to Concentration checks what is expected for most casters, at that level?

[nickl_2000]

I think this falls solidly into the "ask the DM" territory. Spellcasting is a class feature, but if you were to cast Longstrider before polymorph you should still have the +10 to movement during the polymorph. Starry Form being an ongoing affect seems to me like it would work the same way. The activation is the class feature, then the form is active and you get those benefits.

That is my humble opinion, I don't have the word of creators to back it up though.

It passes my own person rules for a table I would be DMing. Would it be to powerful to allow it? No I personally don't think so, you lose the entire first round by bonus action starry form, then action to cast polymorph. Getting a 10 to keep concentration really isn't that big of a gain for the cost of the resource, and you can only use it in the first combat (you definitely can't activate it when you are already a T-Rex). Also, it's fun and fun means a lot to me.

[heavyfuel]

I agree that ongoing effects remain active.

Say you were affected by a curse, would this curse be suppressed because the T-Rex statsheet doesn't have the curse on it? What about a spell, like Slow? Would you cancel the spell? I think most people would say "no" to these questions.

If it goes for debuffs, the same goes for buffs.

[JLandan]

The problem I see here is the word "form".

Polymorph clearly states that the target gets a new "form".

Starry Form also clearly states that you take on a new "form".

So my interpretation would be: If you are in a Starry Form and you Polymorph into another form, you lose the Starry Form. And vice versa.

So, I don't think these would stack. Your best solution to maintain Polymorph while in melee is the usual spellcasting Con supports. Warcaster feat, Resilience (Con) feat, or the best option in my opinion, Enhance Ability (Bear's Endurance) spell; advantage on Con checks for 1 hr. duration and no concentration required for itself.

[Unoriginal]

I think this falls solidly into the "ask the DM" territory. Spellcasting is a class feature, but if you were to cast Longstrider before polymorph you should still have the +10 to movement during the polymorph. Starry Form being an ongoing affect seems to me like it would work the same way. The activation is the class feature, then the form is active and you get those benefits.

That is my humble opinion, I don't have the word of creators to back it up though.

It passes my own person rules for a table I would be DMing. Would it be to powerful to allow it? No I personally don't think so, you lose the entire first round by bonus action starry form, then action to cast polymorph. Getting a 10 to keep concentration really isn't that big of a gain for the cost of the resource, and you can only use it in the first combat (you definitely can't activate it when you are already a T-Rex). Also, it's fun and fun means a lot to me.


I agree that ongoing effects remain active.

Say you were affected by a curse, would this curse be suppressed because the T-Rex statsheet doesn't have the curse on it? What about a spell, like Slow? Would you cancel the spell? I think most people would say "no" to these questions.

If it goes for debuffs, the same goes for buffs.

Ongoing effects, both buffs and debuffs, stay if the person the effect on is Polymorphed, but not if the one maintaining the effect is the one getting Polymorphed.

Ex: if you cast Slow on an enemy, then get Polymorphed into a T. Rex, the T. Rex does not have the faculty to have Slow ongoing.

[heavyfuel]

Ongoing effects, both buffs and debuffs, stay if the person the effect on is Polymorphed, but not if the one maintaining the effect is the one getting Polymorphed.

Ex: if you cast Slow on an enemy, then get Polymorphed into a T. Rex, the T. Rex does not have the faculty to have Slow ongoing.

What if it's a non concentration effect, like Grease? Does the grease disappear? It doesn't disappear if the caster dies, why would it disappear if they are polymorphed?

Same goes for starry form. It doesn't require concentration. Once it's used, it remains for the duration.

Also, here's another piece of RAW:

"[Starry form] ends early if you dismiss it (no action required), are incapacitated, die, or use this feature again." Nothing to be said about being polymorphed. Polymorph doesn't incapacitate nor kill you, so you get to keep it.

[ender241]

The problem I see here is the word "form".

Polymorph clearly states that the target gets a new "form".

Starry Form also clearly states that you take on a new "form".

So my interpretation would be: If you are in a Starry Form and you Polymorph into another form, you lose the Starry Form. And vice versa.

So, I don't think these would stack.

I agree.


Your best solution to maintain Polymorph while in melee is the usual spellcasting Con supports. Warcaster feat, Resilience (Con) feat, or the best option in my opinion, Enhance Ability (Bear's Endurance) spell; advantage on Con checks for 1 hr. duration and no concentration required for itself.

All your game statistics are replaced by the those of the new form. This includes racial features, class features, feats, etc. So Warcaster and Resilient (Con) would not be usable while polymorphed. You're essentially putting your character sheet aside and just using the beast's stat block.

Also, Enhance Ability does require concentration.

Given all of that, I think the best way to use Polymorph is for the caster to use it on someone else (preferably someone running low on hp).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I think casting polymorph on yourself should be different than a Druid's wild shape in some ways.

Now cast Polymorph on an ally while you hang in the back row and its free hit points.

[ender241]

Ongoing effects, both buffs and debuffs, stay if the person the effect on is Polymorphed, but not if the one maintaining the effect is the one getting Polymorphed.

Ex: if you cast Slow on an enemy, then get Polymorphed into a T. Rex, the T. Rex does not have the faculty to have Slow ongoing.

Per SA, you can maintain concentration while Polymorphed. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast it on yourself ever.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA204


Can you concentrate on a spell while transformed by polymorph?
You can’t cast spells while you’re transformed by polymorph, but nothing in the spell prevents you from concentrating on a spell that you previously cast before being transformed.



What if it's a non concentration effect, like Grease? Does the grease disappear? It doesn't disappear if the caster dies, why would it disappear if they are polymorphed?

Same goes for starry form. It doesn't require concentration. Once it's used, it remains for the duration.

Also, here's another piece of RAW:

"[Starry form] ends early if you dismiss it (no action required), are incapacitated, die, or use this feature again." Nothing to be said about being polymorphed. Polymorph doesn't incapacitate nor kill you, so you get to keep it.

Grease would definitely not disappear. Starry Form is different because you're changing your physical form. Wild Shape also has the same language about when it ends. But if you're wildshaped into a bear and someone Polymorph's you into a t-rex, you're no longer a bear. Same goes for Starry Form and Polymorph, for the same reason.

[heavyfuel]

I can see the argument for changing "form" meaning you can't have both forms at once. It makes sense.

The argument that ongoing effects end because you're polymorphed is nonsensical though.

[JLandan]

I can see the argument for changing "form" meaning you can't have both forms at once. It makes sense.

The argument that ongoing effects end because you're polymorphed is nonsensical though.

Ongoing effects would only end if they required concentration. Or if the effect required the target to be a specific form that you no longer are. For example, Charm Person doesn't target Beasts, so it would end.

[Unoriginal]

Per SA, you can maintain concentration while Polymorphed. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast it on yourself ever.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA204

It seems I was wrong, then. Thank you for the correction.

[ender241]

Ongoing effects would only end if they required concentration.

Not according to Sage Advice. See my earlier post.


Or if the effect required the target to be a specific form that you no longer are. For example, Charm Person doesn't target Beasts, so it would end.

The Charm Person scenario is more interesting. JC ruled that it would just suppress the effect, but I guess not end the spell completely. So if Polymorph ends before the duration of Charm Person ends, they would then become charmed again, I suppose? Seems a little janky but not totally unreasonable I guess.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/931621590730653696

Mike Mearls ruled that it would stay in effect:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-charm-person-ends-if-polymorph-is-cast-on-the-charmed-humanoid/

I can see the argument for both rulings. RAW is unclear, so really up to the DM on this one.

[follacchioso]

Thank you all for the answers.


Ex: if you cast Slow on an enemy, then get Polymorphed into a T. Rex, the T. Rex does not have the faculty to have Slow ongoing.I agree with this; it makes perfectly sense and it looks like the best argument to me.

So, it seems Starry Dinosaurs are a possibility, which is amazing...

[ender241]

Thank you all for the answers.

I agree with this; it makes perfectly sense and it looks like the best argument to me.

So, it seems Starry Dinosaurs are a possibility, which is amazing...

I don't understand why the part you quoted (or the overall thread conversation) leads you to this conclusion. It doesn't even support your argument, nor is it true, according to Sage Advice. The person you quoted this from has even since admitted they were wrong lol.

[follacchioso]

I quoted the wrong sentence; I meant to quote this:

Say you were affected by a curse, would this curse be suppressed because the T-Rex statsheet doesn't have the curse on it? What about a spell, like Slow? Would you cancel the spell? I think most people would say "no" to these questions.

[nickl_2000]

I quoted the wrong sentence; I meant to quote this:

Are you the DM or a player in this situation?

[follacchioso]

In this specific case I'm the player, although it is more of a theory crafting question.

I'm looking for ways to use Polymorph effectively, without dropping concentration at the first hit.

[nickl_2000]

In this specific case I'm the player, although it is more of a theory crafting question.

I'm looking for ways to use Polymorph effectively, without dropping concentration at the first hit.

Then the real answer long term is whatever your DM says at your table. :smallbiggrin:

But this thread does give you some argument that you can put out to support what you are hoping for.



As others have said, I find polymorph to be most effective to cast on another party member. You turn them into a T-Rex and then get out of the way so you don't lose concentration.

[ender241]

Then the real answer long term is whatever your DM says at your table. :smallbiggrin:

But this thread does give you some argument that you can put out to support what you are hoping for.



As others have said, I find polymorph to be most effective to cast on another party member. You turn them into a T-Rex and then get out of the way so you don't lose concentration.

Agreed, except I would say that the thread provides a more compelling argument for why the two wouldn't stack. If the DM is only provided the "favorable" side of the argument, they may allow it though. All depends on how lenient they are.

[follacchioso]

Yes, absolutely - polymorph a friend into a T rex, then wildshape into something that has a burrowing speed such as a badger, so you can disappear from the battlefield while the dinosaurs roam the ground and devour your enemies.