Gloomstalker CBE (without SS): Hand Xbow VS. Heavy Xbow

[Ir0ns0ul]

Hey folks, how are you? Long time I don't post over here.

TLDR:

Is Crossbow Expert by itself (without Sharpshooter) enough to make a competent DPR-focused character between levels 1 to 7?
Is Sharpshooter a mandatory pick by level 8 to ensure the main job of a striker for my character?
If we don't consider Sharpshooter in the equation, I'm seeing that Crossbow Expert + Heavy Crossbow + Hunter's Mark (two attacks, and using your BA to cast/move Hunter's Mark) could be a better combination than Crossbow Expert + Hand Crossbow (three attacks, one of the them using your BA), does it make sense?
Have someone leveraged Crossbow Expert not always focusing on the BA attack at least before level 8, when Sharpshooter is not a viable option?

I'm starting a new campaign based on Avernus and I'll play a Hill Dwarf Ranger (Gloomstalker) that I'm envisioning to be like a crossbow master + seasoned demon hunter. The party is not completely done yet, but our "roles" were already defined and my character will take the burden of the main striker/heavy canon (plus some really nice utility and low cure that the Ranger chassis provides). My DM has a great houserule that allows us to pick a +1 stat and a feat at every traditional ASI level, which means that by level 4 I'll be able to afford an 18 DEX and also select Crossbow Expert feat, cool!

I'm a little bit biased against Sharpshooter and I was actually planning to get Resilient (CON) at level 8, however, I'm afraid that this would be a sub-optimal choice and I'm worried that CBE per se will not sustain the ideal DPR I have planned for this character, so I got the wonderful DPR Calculator created by our master LudicSavant and I started to crunch some numbers.



It is more or less accepted that Crossbow Expert is superior to Hunter's Mark for the bonus action usage, specially if you factor in Favored Foe as an additional. The use case to be a resourceless way to attack consistently is still quite good, though.
However, Dread Ambusher extra attack at the first combat round makes up for that (DEX 18 + CBE + Favored Foe with a Hand Crossbow has an avg DPR of 31,7 considering 4 attacks at level 5).
Same case for Longbow user with DEX 18 and Hunter's Mark that gives us an avg DPR of 32,9 -- this number goes even higher (37,4) if the Longbow user has the cheap Bracers of Archery magic item, but I'm not considering this as a factor, just a sidenote.
I realized that we can find a better DPR number by leveranging both Crossbow Expert + Hunter's Mark through a Heavy Crossbow (that I can use more than once in a row thanks to the feat) reaching an impressive number of 35,3 avg DPR at the first round of combat within Dread Ambusher scope.
Then from round 2 ownards, I can simply drop-off the Heavy Crossbow, get the Hand Crossbow and start attacking three times once again enjoying the benefits of Hunter's Mark if the enemy is still alive and the spell is still on-going (Concentration rolls with CON save hurts!), reaching a sustainable avg DPR of 25,8, which turns this strategy a very reliable BBEG killer.
In the end of the day, however, it's always better to use your bonus action to cast/move Hunter's Mark and attack twice with the Heavy Crossbow (avg DPR of 20,4) than attack three times with a Hand Crossbow (avg DPR of 17,4)
Unless you shut down Hunter's Mark and activate Favored Foe, which gives you an avg DPR of 21.
Once again, I'm not saying we will completely ignore Hand Crossbow, it is still a solid, reliable and resourceless way to use our bonus action, but I have the feeling that I have always considered this feat to be workable with Hand Crossbow only and never thought about Heavy Crossbow use case. Mainly because if we factor in Sharpshooter, then there's no argument, attacking three times with -5/+10 will usually be the better choice.

[Lunali]

The difference between a hand crossbow and a heavy crossbow is 2 damage, a bit of range, and the ability to reasonably use a melee weapon if someone gets close. If you use a hand crossbow, nothing is stopping you from using and moving hunter's mark if it needs to be moved, but you get the added option of making an extra attack if it doesn't.

So the real question is, what kind of battles do you expect of your DM? If enemies die frequently, the damage from hunter's mark and the BA attack are pretty even so a heavy crossbow is the better option. If your DM tends towards a small number of stronger enemies, the damage from hunter's mark and the BA attack can be stacked together, making the hand crossbow pull ahead.

[Chaos Jackal]

Since you already crunched numbers... well, is the DPR you came up with up to par with what you want your character to do? Incidentally, I'd suggest running it for a couple AC target points to get a better estimate; the difference between hunter's mark and Favored Foe is smaller if, for example, you're only hitting with one attack every round.

In regards to Sharpshooter, make no mistake, it will give you quite a bit of damage against middling AC enemies, especially if you manage to leverage sources of advantage, be it Umbral Vision, a spell/summon or allies giving you buffs and whatnot. Sharpshooter pairs really well with the Archery fighting style (which I'm gonna guess you'll be picking), the extra attack from Dread Ambusher means even more chances to tack it on, and even if you don't plan to -5/+10 a lot, the other two bullet points combined with CBE essentially mean the only thing stopping you is a solid wall or enemies dropping prone. I understand your misgivings, and it's -5/+10 is definitely not always ideal, but overall it's a very powerful feat for ranged builds. Not just for damage but for how easy it makes ranged combat in general.

So, to go back to the first question, is the DPR you got from just CBE calcs satisfactory? If it's not... well, SS is likely to make up the difference. If it is, do you expect to have range issues or cover issues? I've not played the module, but it sounds like a lot of cases, like riding around in hellish plains, might favor you being able to fire a bow or crossbow at max range, although generally speaking published enemies and terrain don't really go or allow for much in the way of kiting or exploiting cover or anything. By the time you get to lv8 I expect you'll have a better idea for that.

In regards to Resilient... it's definitely not bad, and it's quite useful having all common saves covered when you factor in Iron Mind, but as far as concentration is concerned, it's again a bit dependent on circumstance. If you manage to often stay at long range, then Sharpshooter might actually offer you more protection; standing at 120ft with the hand crossbow or up to 400 with the heavy one is solid grounds for you getting hit very rarely. And if hunter's mark or Favored Foe are gonna be your go-to concentration choices, neither of them is actually that important or resource-intensive. Something like spike growth or, starting at lv9, conjure animals/summon fey, is a much bigger thing to want to maintain concentration on, but hunter's mark can both be easily replaced and only costs a 1st-level slot.

Also, there's the whole party angle to consider. Gloom Stalker is an alpha strike type; you're stealthy, have high initiative and make extra attacks when you go first. If the party as a whole manages to get in on that (pass without trace helps) and you manage to tackle most fights through surprise and mowing down enemies early on to give you a decisive advantage from the get-go, maintaining concentration on something like hunter's mark or Favored Foe is even less important. You jump them, you take two turns before they get to move, turn a priority target or a bunch of smaller ones into pincushions and then who cares if you get hit and lose your damage rider, you've already won the fight anyway.

Again, I suggest that you take a look at how your game unfolds and plan accordingly. Is your DPR to your satisfaction once you pick up CBE, to the point that it feels like SS would be overkill? Do you get hit often enough to warrant Con proficiency and do you plan on switching to higher-level concentration options as you get them? Can you often take advantage of your range and do enemies frequently use terrain to get cover from you? Do you overcome enemy AC often and easily enough to consider SS low risk, high reward? Do you often find yourself shooting with advantage? Do stealth tactics pay off?

Pretty much all of the above questions depend on your table and how the adventure is gonna be ran. So don't fret too much about your lv8 for now. See how it goes until then and decide accordingly. Personally, I believe SS will turn out to be the better option. Just covers a lot of ground in terms of damage and quality of life. Resilient, like I said, isn't bad, but with a combination of smart play, a bit of luck and the fact that concentration isn't that crucial to you it ends up feeling a bit lacking in comparison. In the end, however, it's the conditions through the game that should decide.

[Bobthewizard]

I made this once and carried both crossbows. If we were outside where I might need the range, I wielded the heavy crossbow. In tight quarters inside, I'd hold the hand crossbow.

The game didn't last long. We only played in tier 1, but my plan was to get sharpshooter at 4 and then rely more on the hand crossbow. I wouldn't skip sharpshooter. Extended normal range, and ignoring 1/2 and 3/4 cover are both incredibly helpful for this build. The extended range lets you use your hand crossbow more often. Then use the +5/-10 when you can get advantage against low or moderate AC foes.

If sharpshooter isn't allowed, then you'll be fine. You'll just rely on the heavy crossbow a little more.

[da newt]

Some thoughts:

You'll want a way to overcome resistance to non-magic weapon attacks.

HM will limit your range to 90'.

Favored Foe adds damage only 1/round, is limited to prof / day number of foes (you can't move it like HM, you have to start a new one for each foe), but doesn't cost a BA.

Gloomstalker is made for SS. The invisible in darkness creates ADV often, so the -5/+10 can be very useful.

HandXB and XBE makes a huge difference when you only have 1 attack per round, but if you won't start with it at lvl 1, this isn't as big a deal.

When I played a GS/rogue, I started XBE and hand XB but got frustrated by the stressful BA decisions (cunning action only complicated matters) and ended up switching to Heavy XB just to make the tactical decisions easier. In retrospect, I probably should have skipped XBE and just gone SS (but you have less feat cost with your house rule).

I'd recommend at least a 1 lvl rogue dip for expertise and SA.

[Willie the Duck]

If talking DPR, I've really found XBE to work better for fighters, or at least for rangers who don't use HM. The number of rounds where you are moving your mark around are significant enough that you don't increase your output significantly. If you're doing it simply to be able to play a crossbow wielder who can leverage extra attacks a levels 5+, I am all for it (but that's a thematic choice and the framing of ideal DPR suggests we're discussing optimization).

Regarding hand crossbows with XBE but not SS -- while much of D&D is in the 5'-60' range, there is a significant bit in the 30-60' part. Hand crossbow's limited short range will come into play in a typical adventure.

Another real issue could be magic item drops. I don't think it is a spoiler to say Descent into Avernus has some enemies where you want a magic weapon. As a scripted adventure module, it also has specific magic weapons listed, and if your DM doesn't change that up, that's all there is. Take that for what it is worth before any decision regarding feats or builds which are predicated on a subset of all possible weapons.

[Frogreaver]

2d10+2d6+8 = 26

2d6+2d6+8 = 22
Or 3d6+3d6+12 = 33

Without sharpshooter I would use the heavy crossbow for the range and it’s better with the gloomstalker turn 1 extra attack.

Also, you can carry a hand crossbow and drop your heavy crossbow for it when fighting large solo enemy that you don’t expect to need to move hunters mark around on.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Thanks very much for all responses, friends. Very good insights.

I should have mentioned this before, but regarding magic items, I’m not worried because our DM is pretty generous giving us +1 weapons and uncommon magic items. I know I’ll have a +1 Heavy Crossbow and +1 Hand Crossbow at the same time sooner enough, that’s why I have considered a +1 Longbow and Bracers of Archery at some point, but this goes against the whole concept of this character as a dwarf crossbow master (crossbows are so dwarfy, no?)


2d10+2d6+8 = 26

2d6+2d6+8 = 22
Or 3d6+3d6+12 = 33

Without sharpshooter I would use the heavy crossbow for the range and it’s better with the gloomstalker turn 1 extra attack.

Also, you can carry a hand crossbow and drop your heavy crossbow for it when fighting large solo enemy that you don’t expect to need to move hunters mark around on.

That’s exactly what I understood when I crunched some numbers. Thanks God we have this great forum to help us double check our assumptions.

[Keravath]

Hi! CBE is a good feat and very useful.

CBE will do more damage with a hand crossbow on turns where you don't need to move hunter's mark and less than a heavy crossbow when you do.

Heavy crossbow normal range is 100' so that is fine when using hunter's mark which is 90'. You would only need a long bow if you want the extra 50' of normal range but use a d8 instead of a d10 so with CBE, you'd probably want to stick with the heavy crossbow over a long bow.

If playing a character like this I would carry both the heavy and hand crossbows.

As for sharpshooter, it is also a very good feat and I would definitely add it to this character later if only for the benefits other than the -5/+10. Being able to ignore cover and disadvantage beyond normal range gives the hand crossbow a 120' normal range. Ignoring cover lets you fire into a melee or at a creature behind some sort of cover without having to add the +2 or +5 to target AC.

I think the reason the archery fighting style exists is because ranged characters should have to fire at targets with cover very frequently if they are firing into a fight where their friends are between them and the targets. The +2 from archery offsets the +2 AC from cover and encourages the ranged attacker to move to a location where the opponent doesn't have cover.

Finally, obtaining advantage on your attacks by proper use of the gloomstalker abilities can be a way to effectively make use of the -5/+10 - but the -5/+10 is just an option that you don't have to use.

Resilient con is excellent to have eventually but less essential on a ranged character that may not be regularly concentrating on an essential spell.