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Yeril
2007-11-25, 10:35 AM
I was reading about Armor spikes and I started thinking about Two weapon Fighting. The RAW reads;

"You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and Vice Versa.)"

Now I read this as basicly you can't Three-weapon-fight with a Longsword, a Shortsword, and Armor spikes.

But, could you Two weapon fight with a Two handed weapon, such as a greatsword, and a set of armor spikes. The image of a Grizzled Orc Barbarian with a greataxe, hacking away at his foes as he rams his spiked shoulders into other enemys seems do-able, but do the rules allow this?

Does a two handed attack count as an Primary and offhand attack? It seems a silly question to ask but Its worth checking.

Mad Wizard
2007-11-25, 10:44 AM
I can't give a definitive answer, but I seem to remember hearing about some builds that wield a longspear with a set of armor spikes.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-25, 10:49 AM
I don't see what's stopping you.

Clementx
2007-11-25, 12:23 PM
Technically there isn't any rule forbidding it, and WotC endorses it (but they endorse a lot of really stupid rulings). The only problem- it completely outdoes all other uses of TWFing. So if you want longsword-and-dagger wielding rangers, don't allow it. All other uses of TWF pretty much suck, so it might be the saving grace if you don't want to rewrite the rules to make one-handers and lights useful again.

Fhaolan
2007-11-25, 12:35 PM
I believe the official ruling is that the two-handed weapon is counted as the Primary weapon for the purposes of TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes. I don't know where this ruling *is*, but it's been quoted at me several times by different people, so I have reasonable confidence in it's existance.

However, one DM I played under once ruled that the Armor Spikes should be treated as double the off-hand weapon penalty, while the two-handed weapon suffers no penalty at all. Not sure where he got that, but I thought I'd mention it.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-25, 05:23 PM
By RAW, you can wield a two-handed reach weapon, spiked armor, and even have an animated shield.

Sleet
2007-11-25, 06:18 PM
By RAW, you can wield a two-handed reach weapon, spiked armor, and even have an animated shield.

Yes, but the RAW also state that any character who does so must change his name to Cheesemonkey McMunchkin.

Vilehelm
2007-11-25, 06:30 PM
What about wielding a one-handed weapon, a shield, and spiked armor? Can you use two-weapon fighting to attack with the one-handed weapon and the spiked armor while still claiming the shield bonus?

SadisticFishing
2007-11-25, 06:32 PM
Off hand weapon includes using your mainhand weapon in both hands, or at least, it can easily be interpreted that way and it only makes sense (read: improved buckler defense).

On top of that, you can't use a two handed weapon and make an off-hand weapon attack at the same time.

Harlequin
2007-11-25, 06:37 PM
Yes, but the RAW also state that any character who does so must change his name to Cheesemonkey McMunchkin.

I might have to sig that.

Fizban
2007-11-25, 08:50 PM
Here's a different question. Armor spikes count as one weapon, but you can make both primary and offhand attacks with them. Would this allow a character to TWF with one weapon? It'd sure save on enhancement costs, low base damage doesn't mean much at the levels where the costs start piling up.

As for the main question, while a bit cheesy, I don't think it's any worse than the spiked chain. Even though a spikey kick is out of the question, since it has to be your hand, I could see elbow strikes and such. I would like to say that gripping the weapon in both hands is a non-action part of the attack, but then there'd really be nothing stopping one from TWF'ing with a two-hander at all, with quickdraw and dropping or throwing weapons.

tyckspoon
2007-11-25, 09:03 PM
Here's a different question. Armor spikes count as one weapon, but you can make both primary and offhand attacks with them. Would this allow a character to TWF with one weapon? It'd sure save on enhancement costs, low base damage doesn't mean much at the levels where the costs start piling up.

You can make both primary and off-hand attacks with any weapon; you just take really heavy to-hit penalties if the weapon in question is non-light and you don't have the TWF feat. The only way armor spikes are weird here is that they are a weapon that doesn't actually require the character to hold it. Making a two-weapon attack with only one weapon is at best blatantly against the intent of the rules (they created double weapons especially for people who wanted to do that, after all); I'm not sure where to check for an official line about in the rules, but I'm sure somebody here can find it if exists.

Addition:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
From the two-weapon fighting 'special actions' segment. Additionally, every other reference to making extra attacks based on using more weapons refers to either wielding two weapons or using a double weapon. The exception is the Monk, who does not have an 'off hand' for purposes of making unarmed strikes (although he can still take TWF and use his unarmed strike as his second weapon, in which case the extra attack is from the off-hand anyway. Monks is headachey.)

Gungnir
2007-11-25, 09:27 PM
I discovered this by accident. I wanted my character to be able to physically overpower normal human opponents in case of disarm/surprised without weapon/they're stupid enough to start a grapple, so I got him Improved Grapple. Then I wanted him to be really scary looking, so I gave him full plate with spikes, which worked well with the grappling thing. Then, since I lacked the feats to do anything particularly special with his weapon, I bought a greatsword. Ta-da!

Then, after I decided to get Two Weapon Fighting to take advantage of this (even though he was already quite effective), the whole party got item-wiped, and I gave him two special spiked shields instead of going back to the greatsword to make him into a big, honking, metal, crab-man-of-doom.

Yeah, that guy used Intimidate on like every single human opponent he went toe-to-toe with. Good times.

Talic
2007-11-26, 12:14 AM
On top of that, you can't use a two handed weapon and make an off-hand weapon attack at the same time.

Cite your source by RAW. Otherwise, it's perfectly legal to make a primary attack progression with a greatsword, and off-hand attack progression with armor spikes.

The only thing I can think of to PREVENT it is a limited number of hands. However, Armor spikes bypass this nicely, by obviating the need for hands and arms to make the attack.

Person_Man
2007-11-26, 10:36 AM
You can wield a two handed weapon and armor spikes, using the standard two weapon fighting rules to do so. The armor spikes count as a light weapon, which means you can't apply a Power Attack bonus to them. It's all covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).


Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon? Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when
pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that and your armor spikes when grappling?

When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon.

If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes.

Whenever you use armor spikes as an off-hand weapon, you suffer all the penalties for attacking with two weapons (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook). When using armor spikes along with a two-handed weapon, it is usually best to use the two-handed weapon as your primary attack and the armor spikes as the off-hand weapon. You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack, but when you do so, you don’t get the benefit of using a light weapon in your off hand. You cannot, however, use your armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack when you’re already fighting with two weapons. If you have a weapon in both hands and armor spikes, you can attack with the weapons in your hands (and not with the armor spikes) or with one of the weapons in your hands and the armor spikes (see the description of spiked armor in Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook).

When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe (see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging your foe with a grapple check. Since you can use armor spikes as a light weapon, you can simply use them to attack your foe. You suffer a –4 penalty on your attack roll when attacking with a light weapon in a grapple (see page 156 in the Player’s Handbook), but if your foe is bigger or stronger than you, this might prove a better tactic than trying to deal damage through a grapple check because there is no opposed roll to make—you just have to hit your opponent’s Armor Class. You can’t attack with two weapons when grappling, even when one of those weapons is armor spikes (see the section on grappling in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook).

You can’t attack and damage your foe if he has you pinned. If you break the pin and avoid being pinned again, you can go back to attacking your foe. If your attack bonus is high enough to allow multiple attacks, you might break the pin and then use your remaining attack to damage your foe. To accomplish this, you must first use an attack to break the pin. You can break a pin using the Escape Artist skill, but trying to do so is a standard action for you; once you use the standard action to attempt escape, you can’t make any more attacks during your turn.

Keld Denar
2007-11-26, 11:09 AM
A lot of folks seem to think that attacking with armor spikes somehow involves throwing your shoulder or whatever into your opponent. This would be unwieldly, and would tend to leave an attacker offbalance, especially if the attack missed, or the attack hit, and the spikes snagged on the targets armor. There is no real reason why the part of the armor spikes you are attacking with isn't a barb vambrace, or simlar item. An attack with a greatsword followed by turning the blade upward and ripping up the front of the person with the forearm while the blade is locked is a very believable mechanic. Another would be similar to punching with spiked protrusions from the gauntlets as a momentum followthrough on a given swing, although that could argueable fall into the realm of spiked gauntlets (should not be a seperate weapon IMO). Fluff wise, there is a lot more to spiked armor than shoulder slamming people a lot. Also, IMO, the image they give in the PHB for spiked fullplate is completely rediculous.

Mechanics-wise, 2WF with armor spikes is perfectly legal, per FAQ quoted by Person_Man above. If you spend the feats on it, you get to do it. There are much better things to spend feats on though, since spikes don't benefit at all from PA, the primary source of damage from 2HW types.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-26, 01:20 PM
What about wielding a one-handed weapon, a shield, and spiked armor? Can you use two-weapon fighting to attack with the one-handed weapon and the spiked armor while still claiming the shield bonus?
You can wield a large shield with two hands, and use the Improved Shield Slam (players 2) feat to attack without losing your shield bonus. Then get the Blood-Spiked Charger tactic feat so you can roll over people, Sonic the Hedgehog-style (also players 2).