14 years later... I still think about this joke all the time.

[Falcrist]

OOTS #555: Half-Dragons Are Even Worse

Every single time I see anything that looks like a half-orc (or any half-human, half-fictional-species), I can hear the words in my head:

"ohhhh. That imply very ugly backstory."

Every. Time.

[arimareiji]

OOTS #555: Half-Dragons Are Even Worse

Every single time I see anything that looks like a half-orc (or any half-human, half-fictional-species), I can hear the words in my head:

"ohhhh. That imply very ugly backstory."

Every. Time.

Also, at least in my case I've found that the concept spreads like a benign virus. (^_^)b

My brain has its own perverse form of fun by trying to imagine not only how characters in a story interact with "the way things are", but how they got that way. Particularly amusing when a good author has set the table for it with iceberg-y world-building.

(Very roughly paraphrased, a good story is like an iceberg. The 10% you see on the surface is supported by 90% of structure you don't see.)

[halfeye]

OOTS #555: Half-Dragons Are Even Worse

Every single time I see anything that looks like a half-orc (or any half-human, half-fictional-species), I can hear the words in my head:

"ohhhh. That imply very ugly backstory."

Every. Time.

I'm not getting what the funny bit is. There are people (not myself) who would find Therkla's upbringing as ugly as the orcs apparently did.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not getting what the funny bit is. There are people (not myself) who would find Therkla's upbringing as ugly as the orcs apparently did.


The joke is that the stereotypical half-orc is conceived through rape, which is an ugly backstory, but what Therkla (and possibly the chief) considers "ugly" is revealed to be her parents being sweethearts.

[mucat]

Also a part of the joke is that at the time of the comic, WoTC had (temporarily) removed half-orcs as a player race in 4e, claiming that their very existence implied, as the chief says, a "very ugly backstory" that they'd rather not focus on. So Rich is sort of riffing on that theme here.

[Bohandas]

fixed link

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html

[Precure]

Either way, that joke didn't age well.

[JonahFalcon]

Either way, that joke didn't age well.

That's your opinion.

[halfeye]

That's your opinion.

Mine too.

rhubarb.

[Satohika]

The joke is that the stereotypical half-orc is conceived through rape

I...didn't know that. :smalleek:

[Fyraltari]

I...didn't know that. :smalleek:

See, because orcs used to be always evil repulsive monsters, so there was no way a human woman* would willingly consort with an orc.
Also, it makes your character that much more interesting and deep, by giving him a dark backstory for him to be tormented by. It's very mature and totally doesn't make you look like a teenage edgelord, not does it belittle women at all! And it has absolutely nothing to do with some... specific and questionable imagery about certain real world groups, either.

Post may contain trace amounts of sarcasm.

*Human men bang hot elf chicks in bikini armor, not ugly orc women. Don't be silly. And men can't be raped, we all know that, it's like, physically impossible.

[Crimsonmantle]

*Human men bang hot elf chicks in bikini armor, not ugly orc women. Don't be silly. And men can't be raped, we all know that, it's like, physically impossible.
And in some fantasy settings, elves assume the same ugly backstory for half-elves.

I wonder what the orc chief was actually assuming in-story though. My headcanon was rape of a hot orc chick in bikini armor by a human, but it's not spelled out, and for good reason. Joke doesn't work if you do.

[halfeye]

And men can't be raped, we all know that, it's like, physically impossible.

I know you are joking, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manacled_Mormon_case

[Fyraltari]

And in some fantasy settings, elves assume the same ugly backstory for half-elves.

I wonder what the orc chief was actually assuming in-story though. My headcanon was rape of a hot orc chick in bikini armor by a human, but it's not spelled out, and for good reason. Joke doesn't work if you do.

I like to think he was picturing exactly what happened and found it just as gross as Therkla does.

[littlebum2002]

I'm not getting what the funny bit is. There are people (not myself) who would find Therkla's upbringing as ugly as the orcs apparently did.

you don't think the idea of a human having a child with this guy is funny?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/e/e1/Lieutenant_Gothmog.jpg/

[halfeye]

you don't think the idea of a human having a child with this guy is funny?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/e/e1/Lieutenant_Gothmog.jpg/

It happened:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0538692/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

:smallbiggrin: :smallwink: :smalltongue:

[Mariele]

I always got a kick out of this joke, too. I'm not sure why anyone would think that it hasn't aged well -- I can't imagine many DnD fans are unaware of the typical half-orc backstory. If they were that disconnected, then the whole goblin prejudice thing wouldn't make sense either, and this story must really be falling flat for many...

Some of the OotS jokes have just stayed with me for years.

Every once in awhile, out of nowhere, I'll remember Belkar singing the Meet Me in St. Louis songs and trying to kill the rest of the party and I'll crack up. I don't know why that particular gag tickles my funny bone so much, or so frequently, but it does. :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

I always got a kick out of this joke, too. I'm not sure why anyone would think that it hasn't aged well -- I can't imagine many DnD fans are unaware of the typical half-orc backstory. If they were that disconnected, then the whole goblin prejudice thing wouldn't make sense either, and this story must really be falling flat for many...

Some of the OotS jokes have just stayed with me for years.

Every once in awhile, out of nowhere, I'll remember Belkar singing the Meet Me in St. Louis songs and trying to kill the rest of the party and I'll crack up. I don't know why that particular gag tickles my funny bone so much, or so frequently, but it does. :smallbiggrin:

For me it was the timing of him running by right when V is settling down to finish their wine.

[Precure]

And in some fantasy settings, elves assume the same ugly backstory for half-elves.

Tanis, primary protagonist of Dragonlance saga comes to mind. But then, there was a book that retconned it as consensual later.

[Mariele]

For me it was the timing of him running by right when V is settling down to finish their wine.

Yep, that exact panel and V just sighing afterwards. Gets me every time.

[faustin]

The joke is that the stereotypical half-orc is conceived through rape.

The other side of the joke about the stereotypical half-(orc/elf/dwarf/demon/
dragon/elemental/mindflayer/etc...) is "goddamned horny bards".

[t209]

See, because orcs used to be always evil repulsive monsters, so there was no way a human woman* would willingly consort with an orc.
Also, it makes your character that much more interesting and deep, by giving him a dark backstory for him to be tormented by. It's very mature and totally doesn't make you look like a teenage edgelord, not does it belittle women at all! And it has absolutely nothing to do with some... specific and questionable imagery about certain real world groups, either.

Post may contain trace amounts of sarcasm.

*Human men bang hot elf chicks in bikini armor, not ugly orc women. Don't be silly. And men can't be raped, we all know that, it's like, physically impossible.
Well, except Elves look like aliens in DnD’s time.
Even if they look human enough, they do have elongated face that would turn off many players.
Considering the morally ambiguous sword and sorcery and historical roots, not sure if TSR heard about “native auxiliary” or “foederatii” like hiring rival Orc tribes to beat other Orc tribes. That way they wouldn’t have to do half Orc and much more interesting.

[Jervis]

I like to think he was picturing exactly what happened and found it just as gross as Therkla does.

Humans are pretty gross, they aren’t green, they speak in proper sentences, they don’t even use bold, uncapitalized comic sans for their speech bubbles. The orcish language is beautiful and seeing it marred by proper pronouns and a lack of referring to oneself in the third person is just sad.

[Emanick]

Humans are pretty gross, they aren’t green, they speak in proper sentences, they don’t even use bold, uncapitalized comic sans for their speech bubbles. The orcish language is beautiful and seeing it marred by proper pronouns and a lack of referring to oneself in the third person is just sad.

I'm not sure these orcs (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html) agree with you; they seem to find lessons on how to use "proper" grammar quite intriguing. :smalltongue:

[Riftwolf]

I'm not sure these orcs (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html) agree with you; they seem to find lessons on how to use "proper" grammar quite intriguing. :smalltongue:

They're obviously orcish edgelords.

[Crimsonmantle]

Even within strip 555 chief Grukgruk is rather taken with Therkla's human grammar.
The objection to humans' bizarre skin colors though is evidently quite valid and factbased and natural.

[Precure]

Even calling her the "smartest, prettiest orc" he ever seen.

[Albion]

I think the very first part of what's funny is just the simple fact that the mother is an orc and the father a human, then comes all the fine things said in this thread.

[theangelJean]

I think the very first part of what's funny is just the simple fact that the mother is an orc and the father a human, then comes all the fine things said in this thread.

You know, you're right. Direct contradiction of the "men are strong, women are beautiful" romance trope, right off the bat. In an "awesome, which makes it more funny that they think it's icky" way.

[Bedinsis]

I...didn't know that. :smalleek:

Neither did I. I thought the panel implied a power imbalance between the parents since the mother spoke in the orc-stilted "stupid" way, or that they're the sort of people that would bump uglies in front of their child, since I otherwise could not see what the ugly backstory was. The comic thinking the reader already had a preconceived notion of what the ugly backstory was and contrasting it with the depicted panel as a source of juxtaposition/humour makes way more sense.

[littlebum2002]

I know you are joking, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manacled_Mormon_case

Is there a place to share the absolutely insane sentences you find on Wikipedia sometimes? Because this one is a doozy.

https://i.imgur.com/nS72f8A.jpg

Edit: I'm not an English expert by any means, but doesn't the word "subsequently" imply that the two events are related?

[halfeye]

Edit: I'm not an English expert by any means, but doesn't the word "subsequently" imply that the two events are related?

No. It's a synonym of "after" or "later", it can be used in a sentence that implies or straight out says that, but the word itself just refers to the timing of two events

[Ruck]

The joke is that the stereotypical half-orc is conceived through rape, which is an ugly backstory

I didn't know this part exactly-- or at least not to that degree; I may have just thought orcs had a general distaste for humans or for interspecies relationships with them...


I like to think he was picturing exactly what happened and found it just as gross as Therkla does.

...so this part is what I thought, and I just found it funny for its own sake.

[halfeye]

I like to think he was picturing exactly what happened and found it just as gross as Therkla does.

Why though? racism is the only "why" that makes sense to me, and racism is not funny.

Kids are usually repulsed by the idea of their parents having sex, and that's fine and normal. However, for unrelated adults to object to two adults having sex, there pretty much has to be prejudice involved, and that is generally not good.

[Fyraltari]

Why though? racism is the only "why" that makes sense to me, and racism is not funny.

Kids are usually repulsed by the idea of their parents having sex, and that's fine and normal. However, for unrelated adults to object to two adults having sex, there pretty much has to be prejudice involved, and that is generally not good.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SickeninglySweet

[Gopher]

If I remember right, the joke was originally mocking someone at WOTC or something who had then-recently said something about half-orcs implying an ugly backstory. However, I can't find any reference to this online, so I might have imagined this historical context.

EDIT: All I can find is the post by Shadowfire in this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/46710/d-amp-d-4th-edition-1-day-until-multiclassing-preview-38/p4

I don't know who they're quoting or what their significance is, but I think the comic was mocking whoever it was.

[Satohika]

They're quoting this guy:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080331121646/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14765059#post14765059

[Ruck]

They're quoting this guy:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080331121646/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14765059#post14765059

Haha, almost word for word, too. I had no idea until now that Chief Grukgruk's dialogue was such a specific reference.

[Liquor Box]

Why though? racism is the only "why" that makes sense to me, and racism is not funny.

Kids are usually repulsed by the idea of their parents having sex, and that's fine and normal. However, for unrelated adults to object to two adults having sex, there pretty much has to be prejudice involved, and that is generally not good.

I didn't interpret it that way. I interpreted that the orc chief was assuming it was ugly for the reasons WOTC said it was. The joke was the dissonance between what we and the orc chief expected the comment to have meant, and what actually happened, which was amplified by Therkla agreeing with the Orc Chief, but for very different reasons.

It could be that the orc chief and Therkla were both thinking their sweetness was the ugly backstory, and the dissonance was between both characters and the readers. But then we would lose the impact of the Chief and Therkla agreeing.

[Local_Jerk]

See, because orcs used to be always evil repulsive monsters, so there was no way a human woman* would willingly consort with an orc.
Also, it makes your character that much more interesting and deep, by giving him a dark backstory for him to be tormented by. It's very mature and totally doesn't make you look like a teenage edgelord, not does it belittle women at all! And it has absolutely nothing to do with some... specific and questionable imagery about certain real world groups, either.

Post may contain trace amounts of sarcasm.

*Human men bang hot elf chicks in bikini armor, not ugly orc women. Don't be silly. And men can't be raped, we all know that, it's like, physically impossible.

You joke about it, but often humans and elves look almost exactly the same. Not so for the orcs, who can look ridiculously different. THe vast majority of humans simply wouldn't feel attracted to orcs and vice-versa. That's just how attraction works.

[brian 333]

You joke about it, but often humans and elves look almost exactly the same. Not so for the orcs, who can look ridiculously different. THe vast majority of humans simply wouldn't feel attracted to orcs and vice-versa. That's just how attraction works.

And you have obviously never been on an industrial worker road crew.

[halfeye]

You joke about it, but often humans and elves look almost exactly the same. Not so for the orcs, who can look ridiculously different. THe vast majority of humans simply wouldn't feel attracted to orcs and vice-versa. That's just how attraction works.

Sometimes that is how attraction works.

Orcs in Tolkein are ugly, Tolkein's elves are beautiful, other authors sometimes differ.

[t209]

You joke about it, but often humans and elves look almost exactly the same. Not so for the orcs, who can look ridiculously different. THe vast majority of humans simply wouldn't feel attracted to orcs and vice-versa. That's just how attraction works.
Unless Elves look like aliens with elongated face.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9YjuEuX0AI6XoT?format=png&name=4096x4096
Even if this was a parody, plenty of Fantasy art had Elves drawn in elongated alien face (classic Warhammer Fantasy for example).

[DaOldeWolf]

I didnt know the joke was about that. :smalleek:


Is there a place to share the absolutely insane sentences you find on Wikipedia sometimes? Because this one is a doozy.

https://i.imgur.com/nS72f8A.jpg

Edit: I'm not an English expert by any means, but doesn't the word "subsequently" imply that the two events are related?

What?! Reality is stranger than fiction afterall.


Sometimes that is how attraction works.

Orcs in Tolkein are ugly, Tolkein's elves are beautiful, other authors sometimes differ.

Yeah, there is a lot of "art" out there on the internet dedicated to orcs. Even more so than elves, surprisingly enough. I suppose different tastes, right?

[Metastachydium]

I didn't interpret it that way. I interpreted that the orc chief was assuming it was ugly for the reasons WOTC said it was. The joke was the dissonance between what we and the orc chief expected the comment to have meant, and what actually happened, which was amplified by Therkla agreeing with the Orc Chief, but for very different reasons.

Well, Vurkle's face in the background (cf. how Thog reacts to fetching young ladies) tells me otherwise. Some just aren't fans of the mushy stuff (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0646.html).

[WanderingMist]

That's just how attraction works.

Never heard the phrase "there's no accounting for taste", have you?

[Fergie0044]

Unless Elves look like aliens with elongated face.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9YjuEuX0AI6XoT?format=png&name=4096x4096
Even if this was a parody, plenty of Fantasy art had Elves drawn in elongated alien face (classic Warhammer Fantasy for example).

Ewwwww, what is that weird bumpy thing between her eyes?

[KorvinStarmast]

You joke about it, but often humans and elves look almost exactly the same. Pro Tip: the ears are a giveaway. :smallyuk:

[Fyraltari]

Pro Tip: the ears are a giveaway. :smallyuk:

*Angry Tolkien noises*

[Emanick]

*Angry Tolkien noises*

What does an angry Tolkien noise sound like? Some kind of tree-branch rustling that seems ominously sentient?

[Jervis]

What does an angry Tolkien noise sound like? Some kind of tree-branch rustling that seems ominously sentient?

The sound of second breakfast being canceled because the host is trying to get you to leave as politely as possible

[WanderingMist]

*Angry Tolkien noises*

Why would Tolkien be angry at that? Didn't he take for granted that elves have pointy ears? I remember something about their word for "ear" clearly being derived from the word for "leaf", which would obviously imply pointiness given a prototypical leaf.

[halfeye]

I remember something about their word for "ear" clearly being derived from the word for "leaf", which would obviously imply pointiness given a prototypical leaf.

There are very many shapes of leaves, what about the horse chestnut, or the Swiss-cheese plant?

[Fyraltari]

Why would Tolkien be angry at that? Didn't he take for granted that elves have pointy ears? I remember something about their word for "ear" clearly being derived from the word for "leaf", which would obviously imply pointiness given a prototypical leaf.

In addition to what halfeye said, there are a couple occasions where people see that someone is or isn't an Elf by getting a good look at their eyes not their ears.

[hroþila]

There are very many shapes of leaves, what about the horse chestnut, or the Swiss-cheese plant?
In 1933 Tolkien also said that hobbit ears were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'", and when he wrote the Etymologies he was more likely to have that traditional elvish ear shape in mind so I think it's very likely that he had pointy leaves in mind when he wrote that etymology, and that at that point (in the 1930s) Elves absolutely had pointy ears. You can argue that he changed his mind and that there's nothing in the later canon confirming this, but, well, there's a lot of early stuff (including much of the later Silmarillion) that the later canon is silent about.

My headcanon is that elvish ears are slightly pointy, just not so much that they'd be a giveaway, and usually within the pointier end of the human ear shape spectrum. So more or less what the movies did with most elvish ear prosthetics, I'd say.

[The MunchKING]

See, because orcs used to be always evil repulsive monsters, so there was no way a human woman* would willingly consort with an orc.

Well it's also the default assumption they are at war with humans and stuff all the time to give Heros someone to do Heroics on, so there is the "it's war-crimes" aspect, rather than a specific rapist wanting to rape humans.


I think the very first part of what's funny is just the simple fact that the mother is an orc and the father a human, then comes all the fine things said in this thread.

Huh, I didn't think of that one, because the only other two half orcs that I knew the parentage of had orc moms and human dads.


Actually now that I think about it, most of the half- things I know of had the human as the dad, usually because the bard was going around banging lots of different demihumans/monster ladies. It's simply a case of 1 guy sleeping around can cause a lot more half breeds than a woman, because he doesn't have to worry about pregnancy times.

[Satohika]

Looking back, this strip is a good way to show how topical humor can be misunderstood by younger generations. What written as a joke to criticize a racist trope ends up seen as a racist trope out of context.