The (New) 3.5 Red Hand of Doom Handbook for DMs - Major Spoilers! - PEACH! [Archive]

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:38 AM

Overview of the campaign, who to run it for, and common considerations and issues that arise

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Always a good idea to be prepared.

How many players can be run in RHOD?
Kjones, who wrote one of the campaign journals referenced below, says Â“the Red Hand of Doom is balanced for a party of four core-only PCs - specifically, a meatshield, skillmonkey, healbot, and blaster. With more than four, action advantage against single foes becomes a problem, though these kinds of battles are relatively uncommon. The solution to this is relatively simple; you can toss in an extra couple of monsters into most battles without too much trouble.Â”

If you go above 6 players, though, the sheer weight of PC numbers dictates serious reworks to most encounters. A couple of extra monsters at the same level doesn't really cut it.

Can you run it for 8? Yes, but on my personal experience, I donÂ’t recommend it if you want to portray the party as being under serious threat much. The partyÂ’s collective firepower is going to stand up to most challenges that the adventure throws at it (and then some). For the 8-man party, all NPCs intended as allies can be relegated to noncombatant guides. And at this level encounters become a balancing act between cakewalk and total party kills because the party's aggregate abilities turn fights very swingy.

A quick and dirty way to redress the balance with 8 players is to double the saving throws and hitpoints of every "default" opponent, which notionally makes every encounter an overwhelming one for a party of 4 and therefore presumably able to be handled by a party of 8.

Another alternative is to start them off at level 4 rather than level 5, although again you need to just keep an eye on the fights to avoid TPKs. The XP progression should hold up; even with 8 players they're not likely to fall well behind the notional level progression of the campaign.

However, the same rule doesn't apply in the other direction -- i.e. I don't recommend trying to run RHOD with 3 or less players. Levelling the party up to 6 isn't going to cut it because action economy still works against them at 3 characters or less. Maybe gestalting makes it viable Â– I canÂ’t say personally.

The first couple of hostile encounters in the game should be used as a gauge for the party's capabilities. If they get heavily rolled in "Marauder Attack" it's probably going to be tough going for them in the remainder of the campaign.

Kjones goes on to say Â“The second issue is more problematic. Any group deviating from this "default" configuration [of the Â‘four pillarsÂ’ of D&D parties] will find many of the encounters to be unchallenging and unfun if run as written. This, too, can be rectified without too much trouble. NPC spell selections should be completely reworked, in light of the fact that many NPC casters have save DCs that are too low to be considered threatening.Â”

What levels of party can RHOD be run for?
The module recommends players start at level 5, expecting to top out at level 10. This is good advice. (In the book's funniest sidebar, James and Rich contemplate a party that can defeat the entire Hand Â– giants, multiple dragons, Kharn, mages, everyone -- by itself. In such a scenario, they soberly suggest that Â“you might not be running the adventure for the right character levels.Â” Understatement FTW!)

A level 6 start means 5th level spells will likely be online at or before the Battle of Brindol. This has Â… implications. Starting at level 7 and above, most of the fights are going to be cakewalks. Even at level 5, hobgoblin squaddies (which the partyÂ’s likely to face for 75% of the adventure) are credible threats only in large numbers and backed by spellcasting support. Unless youÂ’re aiming for a power level and feel where the characters are superheroes compared to the opposition, donÂ’t run the unaltered adventure starting higher than level 6.

Remember, the strongest spellcaster opponent in the entire adventure is Azarr Kul at level 11 (apart from the Ghostlord, over whom there should be a blinking sign reading "DO NOT FIGHT"). The highest-level spellcaster in Elsir Vale is Aragathos, a Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 2 in Dennovar, who is meant to be Sir-Not-Appearing-In-This-Film. The PCs are eventually going to wind up equal to or greater than most of the ValeÂ’s spellslingers and warriors even assuming a level 5 start.

In terms of the frequency of levelling, RHOD DMs often institute automatic level up points, which makes PC power much more predictable. These level up points are, in essence, anytime the party kills a dragon ... or a half-dragon behir ... they gain a level. It provides a nice, predictable gradient of power which works okay with RHOD's narrative-based structure and does make it easier to judge encounter difficulty.

How much reworking does RHOD need?
RHOD is built for a group of four casual players whose character choices don't deviate away from the classic four. It works reasonably well for that. Keeping that in mind, changing the campaign becomes a much simpler exercise since RHOD's problems aren't that hard to fix, in most cases they just need a bit more oomph. ItÂ’s a framework to be built upon. Most of what follows is needed if your partyÂ’s well-experienced or optimised, this handbook does not make essential fixes or suggest RHODÂ’s broken as written.

But, per kjones: Â“NPC spell selections should be completely reworked, in light of the fact that many NPC casters have save DCs that are too low to be considered threatening. I did not re-stat the rank-and-file horde members, but given the opportunity to re-run this module, I probably would have done so ... all major NPCs should be given items, spells, and abilities to prevent an anti-climactic demise. Potions of lesser restoration are a good place to start, as are luck feats from Complete Scoundrel. Â… even if the NPCs in the module were more usable, I'd still recommend tweaking them to meet the specific nature of your party.

Finally, note that these recommendations are not based merely on the relatively low power of the builds presented in the module. Even if your party is unoptimized, many of the NPCs in the module are fairly uninteresting, and can be made more so without making them strictly more "powerful". For example, some of the rank-and-file have Alertness as a feat. This will probably never be useful in any significant way. Of course, you could swap it out for Power Attack or Martial Study... but depending on what you want them to do, you could also give them Improved Initiative, and watch as they get the drop on the PCs again and again. (Or something like that. The details are up to you. Framework, remember?)Â”

Alterations needed depend heavily on PC numbers, tactical experience, and level of optimisation. It's all about the number of actions they can take in a round and their control of the action economy. There's also PbP vs. FtF to factor in. PbP is primed for tactical thought since the "decision time" is theoretically unlimited -- a guy could go away for a day thinking about the current round and come up with a brilliant strategem, while the same player at the table might not be able to think of it on the hop.

Difficulty can be tweaked by making Red Hand troops a little more genre-savvy. Unaltered, the HandÂ’s tactics make little sense in a world populated by wandering adventurers and very potent casters. Most Hand patrols don't have instructions to target casters or focus their fire. Even allowing for most of the Red Hand being cannon fodder, this is inexcusable for an army whose threat to the Vale is principally because it hasn't been brought together as one force before.

It might sound like a lot of messing around, but it isnÂ’t really -- particularly if youÂ’re running things in PbP, where youÂ’ve got a lot of time to get prepared and rewrite encounters.

In summary, tune the adventure to suit the party, not the party to suit the adventure. Even targeted at a very 'classical' D&D party run by inexperienced players, RHOD's very flexible for accommodating alternatives - but will need some work to do so.

Timing in the campaign
One issue that frequently crops up is that the Hand army moves too slowly on the default timeline. The Â‘countdown to BrindolÂ’ is RHODÂ’s best tool for pushing the narrative forward, but the Red Hand's itinerary is actually pretty generous. Based on the experience from the various threads we've seen, youÂ’re more likely than not to have your party back at Brindol well ahead of the Hand, it's not likely to go 'down to the wire'.

Koth's notes say it'll take 35 days for the Red Hand to march from Cinder Hill to Brindol, burning every town on the way there. This 35 becomes maximum 41 days if the party kills Koth, recruits Warklegnaw, and destroys Skull Gorge Bridge. Assuming a party on foot at 30 feet per round making 3 miles per hour, at 8 hours per day, a party can cover 840 miles in 35 days (and 984 miles in 41). To give it scale: Drellin's Ferry is only about 80-90 miles from Brindol. Absent wild sidetrips, most parties will meet that deadline and then some. This deadline gets even easier if the party secures giant owls from the Tiri Kitor in the Blackfens. RHOD suggests giant owls can make 56 miles per day, assuming 8 hours of travel per day at 7 miles per hour. That hugely increases the distance they can cover in the month or so of the Red Hand's march. Also, if the partyÂ’s scooting around the countryside on owlback, it makes suspension of disbelief tougher when assassination squads start jumping out of nowhere to ambush the party. And if the party wizard hits level 9 and picks "Teleport" as one of his spells, then that's at least 900 miles of travel per spell.

Dealing with a party back at Brindol Â‘earlyÂ’ entails: sidequests from Brindol; have the Red Hand move faster right from the get-go by altering Koth's notes to reflect a shorter timeframe; allow the party to just rest up and prep for battle; or have the Hand move at the speed of plot. Of these, options 1, 2, and 3 are going to suspend disbelief a lot easier than option 4. There isn't a lot of time to craft items across the rest of the campaign, so depending on how much time they've got this may be a convenient moment. Also consider letting the party help prepare for the battle by boosting defendersÂ’ capabilities, which weÂ’ll discuss later.

Another, proactive measure is to lean harder on the early parts of the campaign, encouraging the party to sidequest into the villages of Elsir Vale before getting Â“back on trackÂ” Â– warning towns and villages, looking into interesting side ruins, and so on. The players may not figure out early on how imminent the HandÂ’s arrival is or overestimate the amount of time theyÂ’ve got. Or just alter Koth's notes and speed up the Red Hand's march by a few days at least.

Parties who are Â‘lateÂ’ on the timeline are comprehensively dealt with in the RHOD book, so nothing more need be said on that topic.

Notes on Victory Points
The Victory Points total RHOD imposes to see if you've done "enough" to destroy the Hand looks pretty formidable. It isn't: of a total possible 74 VP, the players only need 40 VP at Brindol. No railroading is needed even if the party misses an entire encounter area. The points from various tasks are atomised such that if you miss some you can easily make them up elsewhere. And the party gets two chances at some VPs -- missed Red Hand leaders show up again at the Battle of Brindol.

Of the 40 VP, players earn a guaranteed 20 from the combat encounters in the Battle, or really a guaranteed 32 VP since any missed Wyrmlords show up again here. PCs might withdraw from these encounters thus depriving themselves of the VP, but in practice PCs seem to prefer death or glory, which obviates the count: if they lose they're generally all dead, in which case the VP count is the least of their worries.

The biggest single loss of VP is if the players skip Rhest entirely. ThereÂ’s no backup plot marker to get them out to the GhostlordÂ’s lair, leading to them missing 14 VP (18, but Saarvith and Ulwai will show up again at Brindol anyway). Even then, it's nowhere near a fatal blow. YouÂ’d be looking at a real Fail Party to have to start massaging the adventure to save the PCs from themselves.

Two issues that a lot of DMs get confused on with VPs:

(a) Does getting more than 40 VP = automatic victory in the Battle of Brindol?
(b) Do you tell the players about the VP or give them a running count of how many they have?

The answer is No to the first; Maybe to the second.

On the first question: you tally up Victory Points if (and only if) Kharn is killed during the Battle of Brindol. Kharn is the linchpin of the army, but if he dies and the Hand hasn't been dealt enough 'deaths by a thousand cuts' from the party's earlier victories, someone else will rise to take his place. If Kharn dies and you don't have a total of 40 VPs within the next 1d4 hours, the Red Hand regroups and launches a second, more determined attack which smashes what's left of Brindol; even if Kharn dies, Brindol has basically 'shot its bolt' defending the first assault and won't have the strength to hold back a second - the remainder of Brindol's forces withdraws to Dennovar.

On the second question: there's arguments both ways. The middle course is to suggest that a certain event or events gave an extra X number of VP, but don't tell players the number they're trying to hit. Since the players can't win before the Battle of Brindol anyway, and if you're playing with a seasoned group of D&D players you're already going to contend with a goal-oriented attitude of "Adventuring! Kill them, take their stuff, and find out what you next have to do to acquire the Macguffin." Don't shoot yourself in the foot by telling the players what number they have to meet -- just give the impression that their actions count in some way.

Having said all that, it is very possible - if not advisable - to do more with the Victory Points count than RHOD does. You can shift how Brindol plays out, provide different levels of victory, add, subtract, or game-ify the whole hunt for VPs if you know what you're doing. We've put a good guide on how to do it right here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1owNxu2xbdRiyyd8AraVs-LtWu8xUrUgbJWJ1JN-TYNk/edit#heading=h.62ylvuor3rzm)

Any particular gamebreakers to watch for?
Optimised parties are always going to be harder to challenge than unoptimised ones. Most DMs already know this. Here weÂ’re only looking at particular character options which cause serious headaches for RHOD itself - options which reliably turn a lot of fights into annoying timewasters because of what the option does, together with explanations for why the option sucks for RHOD in particular.

So, in no particular order, I give you the RHOD DM's list of headaches:

Fifth-level spells start to come online around the highpoint of the campaign - the Battle of Brindol. It's basically inevitable, but fifth level spells bring a quantum leap in PC capability: Teleport, Mind Fog, Cloudkill, Dismissal, Overland Flight, Polymorph, Scrying, Flame Strike, Commune, Contact Other Plane, Raise Dead, Righteous Might ... and that's just from the SRD. The opposition during the battle is melee-focused and heavy with opponents that don't have great saving throws; there's no dedicated spellcaster that the party faces as an encounter, even the dragon is a bruiser and burner, not a caster. Be warned, then, that PCs can turn the Battle into a practical demonstration of the potency of Tier One classes. This will depend on how seasoned the players are, and how much time they've got to think - if you've got only one spellcaster PC it's going to be harder for him/her to clown every encounter, but this should be borne in mind nonetheless.

Mindsight from Lords of Madness. ItÂ’s potentially a gamebreaker in general, but moreso in RHOD because virtually all the dungeons in the game are less than 100 feet across. A Mindsight-endowed character can give complete intel on virtually all monstersÂ’ locations Â– even undead, i.e. at the GhostlordÂ’s lair Â– just by standing near the entrance to a dungeon for a round. IMHO it also makes an underwater assault on Rhest very easy, makes ambushes on the party non-ambushes, and makes the sniper attack at Brindol almost a nonevent. You could start dishing out Mind Blank scrolls to some enemies, but itÂ’s easier just to disallow it altogether.

Monsters' Will saves are a gamebreaker -- many are very average. Confusion, Ray of Stupidity, and, Gygax help us, Mind Fog are all encounter-enders against the majority of the Hand forces. Conviction or Mass Conviction spells help with these issues. Halfway optimised beguilers tend to have perhaps inappropriate levels of godmode with RHOD, particularly when by the time you reach the Blackfens a beguiler can attain enough spells, Bluff and Disguise to fool Regiarix that he's a hobgoblin (personal experience on that.)

The spell Downdraft (Spell Compendium) is a potential headache for the first couple of dragons in the campaign. It's one of the few 'save or be screwed, save and potentially be screwed anyway' spells I've seen which works well against a dragon. (Well, it worked against Ozzy, anyway...) Also watch for Ray of Dizziness, which imposes basically the effects of Slow and has no saving throw. Spell Resistance does apply ... but unfortunately for your dragons, none of them have Spell Resistance due to their youth.

Look carefully at the Dread Necromancer class before allowing it. There's a few locations where dead bodies can be accessed with impunity, not to mention that the Battle of Brindol is going to give a DN an ever-increasing supply of fresh corpses to play with.

Improving the Red Hand forces generally across the entire campaign
Rather than repeat the same advice through five different sections, letÂ’s talk about general improvements that can be made to recurring opponents in the RHOD campaign.

A note of caution, though. In my entirely personal and less-than-humble view, it isnÂ’t wise to turn every soldier in the Hand into an elite trip-attacking fighter who can take several partymembers all by himself. These guys are meant to be a threat to the good folk of the Vale only because Kul's leading them; even the piddling town guard of DrellinÂ’s Ferry successfully sees off hobgoblins raiders. Rank and file Hand members Â– the regulars and possibly the veterans Â– therefore shouldnÂ’t be given lots of extra levels. The HandÂ’s upper ranks are meant to be challenging, but they still have a lot of cannon fodder.

ItÂ’s worth just stepping back for a moment and taking a fresh look at things if you find yourself getting caught up in what I call the RHOD Arms Race Â– turning your hobgoblin rank and file into seriously competent builds who can beat the hell out of party members. This encourages players to seek out ever-stronger character optimisation strategies and (shudder) the 15-minute adventuring day. This isnÂ’t to say you canÂ’t have the elite death squad that eventually comes after the party Â– or adjusting Battle of Brindol encounters to have crack troops -- just donÂ’t make every Hand squaddie that way.

Onto the suggestions common across the campaign--

The Hobgoblin Regulars
Walking chunks of hitpoints, one and all. One feat each, which is Alertness. Boring and ineffective. Replacing that feat really depends on what you want your rank and file to do, but hereÂ’s some suggestions for replacements and other refinements:

- Power Attack, if you want them thumping ineffectively away at the party.
- Improved Initiative, if you want them to get the drop on the party a decent amount of the time.
- Shieldmate (Miniatures Handbook, p. 28) for a +1 AC to an adjacent opponent who wants to wield his weapon two-handed rather than use a shield.
- Phalanx Fighting (CW, p. 103) if youÂ’re prepared to have the regulars wield shortspears or short swords rather than longswords.

PHB 2 Teamwork Benefits: if you get your patrol leader to put 5 ranks in Balance, and 1 rank to the regulars, you could get the hobgoblin patrols to access Massed Charge, which gives you an attack bonus equal to the number of team members participating in the massed charge. On RAW this could nicely stomp a single member of the party if you get the right moment for it: although the BenefitÂ’s training requires you charge together, the use of it doesnÂ’t require that team members all come from one direction. They can converge on one point from multiple directions. You get, say, four hobgoblin regulars and their leader all charging at once, and their charge attacks each get a +5 on top of the +2 from a successful charge.
Not so cocky about mere mooks now, are we?
And thatÂ’s before we start incorporating ToB charge-helping maneuvers like Battle LeadersÂ’ Charge, Leading the Attack, or Leading the Charge.

Even if more vulnerable to Area of Effect, it makes them act more like their RHOD character hook describing them as Â“conditioned to follow orders; accustomed to cruelty and harsh disciplineÂ”.

Hobgoblin veterans can be worked with a little more, obviously, because they've got more feats. Basically, rather than just one of the above options, take two or more. Veterans are harder troops, but they're not leaders, just a bit better at hitting things.

Hobgoblin Bladebearers and Hobgoblin Sergeants
In summary: for these guys, Tome of Battle is your friend.

The consensus among most DMs is that the Bladebearers are more effective and interesting rebuilt as Warblades of the same or slightly higher level. Go and Do It! Do it Naow!

The main reason is because it gives them just a bit more oomph in combat and more interesting things to do with them. And once you've built one, creating another unique individual Warblade is as easy as switching maneuvers and weapons around. I've also heard good things about switching all hobgoblin sergeants to Crusader 3, too, which certainly makes them a bit more durable if not respectable.

As an example, Uth-lar, who would otherwise be a hobgoblin bladebearer and leader during the Marauder Attack at the start of the adventure becomes as follows:

Warblade 4,
32 HP (4 HD), AC 17 (10 + Masterwork Armor 3 + 3 DEX +1 Two-Weapon Defense
BAB +4, +9 attack with his two +1 shortswords or +7/+7 if he uses Two-Weapon Fighting. Damage = 1d6+6/19-20
Str 16 (+3), Dex 16 (+3), Con 15 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12(+1), Cha 8 (-1)
Fort +6 Ref +4 Will +2
Feats: Two-Weapon Defense(B), Weapon Focus (short sword), Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Weapon Specialisation (short sword)(B).
SQ: Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor, Battle Clarity
Maneuvers:
Battle LeaderÂ’s Charge Â– no AoOs while charging, +10 damage on hit.
Emerald Razor Â– melee attack becomes touch attack
Leading the Attack Â– allies gain +4 on attacks against foe you strike
Sudden Leap Â– Jump as a swift action
Wolf Fang Strike -- attack with two weapons.
Stances:
Blood in the Water -- +1 to attack and damage with each critical hit.
Leading the Charge Â– allies deal +4 on charge attacks.

Our guy has three bonus feats given by RHOD, preserved intact here. Toughness is gone, sure, but I contend the maneuvers and stances make him far more interesting as an opponent and far better a booster of his fellow troops.

This template can be used for every other hobgoblin bladebearer in the campaign. The maneuvers at least are solid enough choices for hobgoblin patrol leaders.

A variation is Warblade 1/Fighter 2/Warblade +1, utilizing RAW to get more feats and maneuvers for the same levels.

If you donÂ’t have ToB, you need your head examined but are entitled to your opinion still are well advised to make the builds a bit better. Alertness and Toughness are just wasted feats, and Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialisation = suckitude for fighters by comparison with other options out there, even at these low levels.

If youÂ’re sticking to flat fighters, you could easily get away with an extra level on the bladebearers, and certainly another fighter level on the sergeants. If youÂ’re going to that trouble, the bladebearer should be redesigned away from two-weapon fighting: itÂ’s a trap with no rogue levels, even with the fighterÂ’s surfeit of feats. ThereÂ’s plenty of good fighter (Â”https://rpgbot.net/dnd35/characters/classes/fighter/Â”) handbooks (Â”https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighters%27_Handbook_By_Dictum_Mortuum_(3.5e_Optim ized_Character_Build)Â”) discussing what feats to put on vanilla fighters. But if youÂ’re going defensive, at least consider Phalanx Fighting and have the hobgoblins work as a team Â– and if youÂ’re going aggressive, charging builds, then consider Dungeoncrasher if only in its 2nd level form.

Monster Manual V variant hobgoblin possibilities:
If you've got access to this book, some variants synergise well with the Hand's composition as an army of raving hobgoblins:

Warcasters, even with an extra level of wizard or two, as replacements for the Hobgoblin War Adepts.

Spellscourges as replacements for Bladebearers, albeit 1 CR higher.

Hobgoblin Duskblades: AslanCross has only good things to say about these guys, possibly as replacements for Hobgoblin Veterans, and certainly as extra firepower for the assassination attempt on the PCs.

Hobgoblin Warsoul: possibly replace one of the hobgoblin clerics in the GhostlordÂ’s lair with one of these guys ... or even replace Koth, particularly given the Cult of Power extraordinary ability.

Hellhounds:
These guys are generally seen as underwhelming. Suggestions for replacements range from Dire Wolves to Rage Drakes. Greyfell proposes giving the hellhounds the draconic template and switching out feats for Multiattack and Clinging Breath from the Draconomicon. Napalm hellhounds FTW! And it does make sense since most of the summoned creatures in the campaign are coming from Tiamat's home plane, so one would expect some draconic influence there.

Equipment loadouts: In what is probably a misprint, hobgoblin soldiers get 3 potions of Cure Moderate Wounds. Leaving aside this invites your squirrely players to store up healing potions, most hobgoblin soldiers probably aren't going to last more than a round or two to consume said 3 potions.

One solution -- and indeed across the campaign, not just for hobgoblin soldiers -- is to substitute or outright give Potions of Conviction, or have the Hand's clerics cast Mass versions of it. This at least gives the Hand forces some chance they can stand up to encounter-ending spells like Glitterdust.

Improving the dragons across the campaign
WeÂ’ll talk more specifically about the various dragons as we go, but the consensus is that Ozyrrandion and Regiarix need upgrades to the next size and age category, Abithriax only does if the partyÂ’s optimized, and Tyrgarun does not.

For all dragons, feats like Alertness, Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical should be swapped out. Dragons are most effective when theyÂ’re making strafing runs using their breath weapons because they can hit multiple targets in one strike, or when they're making full attacks; you should be using their standard actions (when they get them) either to breathe or cast, not for single attacks. Decide whether you think the dragon's going to mostly be in the air or on the ground and build accordingly.

Remember dragonsÂ’ flight speed (150 feet = 300 feet at double move) and give them some regard for their own hides. Regiarix has encountered adventuring parties before, so if hit with a serious fusillade he should head for the hills ASAP. Ozyrrandion has a simple escape hatch: fold wings and drop like a rock into Skull Gorge, then level out and get lost.

Every dragon should know and cast Mage Armor and Shield. Scintillating Scales makes them much tougher against magic. The spell Wings of Cover is a dragon spell and a great lolnope against magic as well. For full attacking dragons, Blood Wind.

(Varanthian as the fifth Beatle Â“dragonÂ” of the adventure is a bit of a poser. See the spoilertag devoted to her for further discussion.)

They caught a Wyrmlord, damn it ...
Obviously the subject of prisoners is a well-worn one for D&D parties, but chances are the PCs will capture at least one Wyrmlord during the adventure, so it pays to be ready for it. Some suggestionsÂ…

Koth: ride him back to DrellinÂ’s Ferry, put him in the Old Toll House. If he isnÂ’t rescued (see further on) he goes with a detachment of SorannaÂ’s soldiers to Brindol, though I personally reckon you then give him a 50/50 chance of escaping somewhere along the way. With adventurers escorting him, no chance. At Brindol IÂ’d presume he says nothing more than he already knows, and is locked away in a nice quiet dungeon beneath Brindol Keep to await a summary trial and execution.

Saarvith: if heÂ’s captured, he could point out to the party that heÂ’s nothing without Regiarix, and that Kharn isnÂ’t going to be very happy with him upon reporting back Â– in fact he might rightly conclude his time with the Hand is over as soon as Regiarix bites the dust. Releasing him at Rhest is an option, though I reckon thereÂ’s good odds the Tiri Kitor hunt him down themselves. If heÂ’s taken back to Starsong Hill, itÂ’s more direct: thereÂ’s every chance the elves will execute him for the misery his razorfiends have inflicted upon them. If the party really wants to cart him all the way back to civilization, I suppose thereÂ’s a chance he can be persuaded to help the Vale, but again itÂ’ll take a unique party and unique set of circumstances to do that.

Ulwai: UlwaiÂ’s information can upend a campaign, since on the RHOD text she knows exactly where the Fane is, how to get in, and that Azarr Kul is right there, giving players a nigh-irresistible chance to cut off the snake at its head. Really callous parties might leave her to the GhostlordÂ’s tender mercies, but again, itÂ’s probably back to Brindol with her, where IÂ’d say her knack for diplomacy at least convinces Jarmaath to let her go after the HandÂ’s destroyed.

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:41 AM

Fixing the fluff: adapting RHOD for various D&D settings.

http://a2goodesqegs.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/adaptation.jpg
This is not really the kind of adaptation we meant.

Running RHOD in the Forgotten Realms
On the RHOD text you can drop Elsir Vale in between the Forest of Amtar and the Misty Vale "seamlessly". It’s not a seamless fit, though. The various landmarks only liberally gel with the “big map” of the Realms, and not quite with the closer maps from Shining South (pp.155-158). You could work round this by suggesting the closer map from RHOD is a better fit to Elsir Vale from local surveys rather than try and explain why it doesn’t fit.

A very generous player named Antariuk produced a map of Elsir Vale converted to Forgotten Realms standards, which you can find at this link (http://fallschaden.blogspot.de/p/red-hand-of-doom.html). Under a full conversion of Elsir Vale to the Forgotten Realms:

Brindol becomes the city of Rethmar.
The Westdeep becomes the Misty Vale.
The Wyrmsmoke Mountains become the Wyrmbones.
The Witchwood becomes Shaareach Forest.
The Elsir River becomes the River Talar.
Lake Rhestin becomes Lake Lhespen, and Rhest itself becomes Lhesper.
The Stonewash becomes the River Shaar.
Mentions of Rhestilor should become Lhespenar (yes, I know it sounds like Cespenar from Baldur’s Gate. Give me a break.)
The Blackfens become the Lhespenbog.
The Giantshield becomes the Rathgaunt Hills.
The Endless Plains become the Shaar.
Marth Forest becomes the Channathwood.
Dennovar becomes Channathgate.
The Golden Plains become the Swagdar (the Outlaw Wastes).
The Wyvernwatch Mountains become the northernmost end of The (Halruaan) North Wall.
The Thornwaste becomes the northeastern end of the Bandit Wastes, and avoided by said bandits because of the Ghostlord’s presence.

If you’re determined to follow “canon” descriptions of the Vale, Ed Greenwood (yep, that Ed Greenwood) did an unofficial writeup of Rethmar a couple years back. You can find it here (https://www.enworld.org/threads/rethmar-rathole-of-the-shaar.667088/). It’s … interesting but gives us more work because it turns Rethmar into a rathole ruled by a merchant council, not a single lord in Jarmaath.

Erase the city of Kormul from existence or turn it into a treasureless ruin; it doesn’t exist on the RHOD map of Elsir Vale. There’s also no sign of the Old Rhest Trail in any Realms source, so play that road as having fallen into disuse.

Whatever your choice, remember the party’s well off the beaten track. You’re in southeastern Faerun; it ain’t the standard medieval setting, mostly because of the climate. RHOD happens in summer, and that’s pretty much what it’s like all year round in this part of the Realms. Shining South describes the Misty Vale, Shaareach Forest, and Channathwood as stifling, steamy, jungles. If your PCs are wearing full plate armour without an enchantment of Easy Travel or Endure Elements they should be feeling it hard. (This is a good thing; it brings resource management back into the picture.)

There are ethnic differences: not many pale Illuskans here, it’s predominantly Durpari or Arkaiun, with a smattering of Halruuan. Merchant caravans from Calimshan are a possibility, too. Indeed you could perform a whole conversion to something more like Arabian Nights or Central America.

The Tiri Kitor become a tribe of exiles from the Misty Vale (most elves in this part of Faerun are insular and xenophobic). Perhaps they were exiled because they wanted contact with the outside world, which gives them a reason to talk before shooting when the party enters the Blackfens/Lhespenbog. Or maybe a religious difference: the Tiri Kitor honour Corellon Larethian, not more ‘primal' gods like Rillifane or Fenmarel Mestarine.

Adapting other gods is straightforward: Lathander for Pelor, Kelemvor for Wee Jas. The Ghostlord becomes a druid of Nobanion seduced by Malar, forming the lion cult that plagues the Vale until the coming of Lhespenar’s kings to displace him into the Bandit Wastes, then cursed by Malar to blighterdom when he kills a lion cub.

Consider Jarrett Nurth (the serial-killing shopkeeper of Drellin's Ferry) as a Strifeleader of Cyric, or a cleric/rogue of Cyric – this makes for a great little side scare in town.

Another thought is to introduce a fifth column among the Red Hand: covert clerics of Maglubiyet or Nomog-Geaya, the patron gods of goblinoids and hobgoblins … said god/s being none too pleased about Tiamat stealing away a slab of their people.

The players get sent north on the (feeble) excuse that the blockade on the Old Rhest Trail must be broken to get reinforcements from Shaarmid, several weeks away. You might make a point of how unprepared for war the Vale is, given its buying light cavalry from literally hundreds of miles away.

Genre savvy players might ask: how does the Vale continue to exist, lodged as it is between a bunch of exiled Netheril mages to the south (Halruaa) and a half-drow neutral evil nation to the east (Dambrath)? In short: because Halruaa and Dambrath are snobs. Halruaa is holed up behind three mountain ranges; Dambrath has “surprisingly nonaggressive” (Shining South) attitudes towards its neighbours. Or maybe the Vale doesn’t have any resources worth plundering. Or maybe it’s just too damn hot to fight. Either way, there are in-universe rationalisations for why Rethmar hasn’t been made a smoking hole in the ground by more enlightened civilizations.

Possibly the biggest question: given Tiamat has a well-established church in Unther, why does she feel the need to start a war in a backwater on the doorstep of Halruaa, a country with enough resident magical power to blast the Vale off the face of the Realms if provoked? One answer could be that Tiamat’s got a precognitive gleam of the impending Spellplague. She has a good idea of what’s likely to happen to Unther and Halruaa (the phrase "smoking cinder" pretty much summing it up.) And so is trying to diversify her holdings against this catastrophe. The war in Elsir Vale is her seed for the future.

But these are mostly flavor considerations. Setting RHOD in the Forgotten Realms is a homecoming for some beasties here -- Abishai and Spawn of Tiamat originate from the Realms or have specific notes in the Monster Manuals for how to adapt them for Faerun.

I’ve seen the odd campaign journal which attempts to set RHOD in more “conventional” parts of Faerun; this is just the most straightforward conversion the authors themselves put forward. Really it's more the narrative structure than the window dressing that is the selling point of RHOD.

Running RHOD in Eberron
Courtesy of the ever-helpful and devastatingly handsome AslanCross!
The Red Hand of Doom is written for a fairly generic D&D setting (and as such, is easy enough to incorporate into "vanilla" settings like Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, which primarily use default fluff). However, this excellent module also works very well in Eberron, but adapting it will take slightly more work .

On the Nature of Tiamat
Black candles burning/Announce her comeback
The reign is awaiting/The Queen of the Dead
--Queen of the Dark Horizons, by Rhapsody of Fire

Tiamat in Eberron is significantly different from her incarnation in other settings in that she is not a goddess. The gods in Eberron are distant and have never walked the surface of the Material Plane in the flesh as far as mortals know. Tiamat, however, has.

Tiamat is a demon Overlord, the daughter of Khyber himself. She was born of the Dragon Below and had has the power to corrupt and enslave all dragons, metallic or chromatic (though chromatics are especially vulnerable).

During the Age of Demons, the dragons who fought against the Overlords feared her the most, for she could turn them against each other. It took the power of the Couatls to imprison Tiamat in the Pit of Five Sorrows in Argonnessen, but even then they feared her return. By tracing her symbol in the skies, the dragons gave Tiamat her own apotheosis, hoping to forever banish her from Eberron.

Now, the Pit of Five Sorrows is the most heavily-guarded fortification in all of Eberron, considering that it is guarded by the entire Light of Siberys (the dragon army of Argonnessen). Even a horde of ten thousand hobgoblins and a few, relatively young dragons cannot do much to bring down the a single Glorious Flame of the Light of Siberys, who would likely be a Great Wyrm with Prestige Class levels, let alone an entire crusading army of them.

This does not mean that her cult is inactive. Tiamat's clerics: twisted dragons (some of them fiendish, blessed with fell energy), rakshasas (some of them draconic, blessed with the might of the dragon), and others have attempted to bring her back, and continue to do so.

As such, the Red Hand Cult should be primarily concerned with setting Tiamat free. How they do so depends on how she is kept imprisoned, and this depends on the DM. For my purposes, I had the PCs discover that the Fane of Tiamat was not actually a temple, but one of the dimensional foci of the great planar seal that powered the Pit of Five Sorrows. The planar seal, a continent-sized pentagram, was drawn using epic magic across the land and sea, and anchored on five fanes. The Elsir Fane, which is where Azarr Kul hides out, is the easiest to access. The others are much more difficult to access (they are either deep underwater or hidden in dense jungle).

Most chilling here is that if the dragons perceive a threat (and Tiamat is indeed the most significant threat they have faced since), they have a tendency to mobilize en masse and destroy whatever is in the way. If they catch wind of Azarr Kul's plan, they might probably invade Khorvaire and unleash destruction on the already war-torn continent.

The Wyrmlords and the Talons of Tiamat
It is certainly well within the realm of possibility that none of the Wyrmlords are actually goblinoids. Since the high cult of Tiamat is often made up of Rakshasas, it is not a stretch to make the Wyrmlords themselves Rakshasas in disguise (or not in disguise at all).

I. Azarr Kul: Half-blue dragon Ak'Chazar Rakshasa. On the really high end of the optimization scale, but you could give him gishy spell picks. As an outsider, he has racial proficiency with martial weapons and will do well as a superpowered gish.
II. Kharn: Half-red dragon Zakya Rakshasa (no ToB) or draconic (red) Naityan Rakshasa with Swordsage levels (with ToB). Or you could do both and make him a Zakya Rakshasa with Warblade or Crusader levels.
III. Ulwai: Bog-standard Rakshasa. Although relatively weak as a full caster enemy (CL 7th for a CR 10 enemy), you could give her martial weaponry and make her a gish instead.
IV. Saarvith: As an archer build, he doesn't work too well as a rakshasa. Keeping him as written is fine.
V. Koth: Keeping him the same is fine. Warlock or Hexblade could make him a challenging boss if you play it right.

You could also go the way I went, which is to add extra rakshasa bosses. I introduced a large-sized, half-bronze dragon Naityan Rakshasa with Swordsage levels as Azarr Kul's true right hand man.

Remember that half-dragons are considered abominations in Eberron, but Rakshasas easily get around this by participating in a ritual that, if successful, gives them draconic might in addition to their existing powers.

The Mighty Ones
We goblinoids are just like you humans, except our empire lasted eleven thousand years.
--Lhesh Haruuc (Races of Eberron)

Another interesting piece of lore: Eberron's goblinoids, unlike the relatively lowly and reviled mook creatures in other settings, actually once ruled all of Khorvaire in an empire that lasted ten thousand years. They slowly crumbled after a catastrophic war with the Daelkyr and their aberrant hordes. Numerous ruins still dot the landscape of Khorvaire, testament to the fallen glory of the Dhakaani Empire. The goblins call themselves Golin'Dar, or "The quick and shrewd ones" (in fact, "goblin" is a human corruption of the term), the hobgoblins call themselves the Ghaal'Dar (the mighty ones; specifically connoting battle prowess), and the bugbears are the Guul'Dar or "the strong ones" (connoting physical strength). Collectively, the goblinoids call themselves "the Dar" or "the People." Most of them are not happy with their current lot in life, treated as "savages" by the "more civilized" human-dominated Five Nations. There is a lot of inherent racial pride.

Furthermore, while hobgoblins have a sovereign nation (Darguun), Darguul mercenaries were hired by many sides during the Last War (mostly Breland, however), so it's easy to explain why a large group of thousands of goblinoids is operating independently of the Lhesh Haruuc in Darguun.

The Giants
In Eberron, giants are not native to Khorvaire. They mostly inhabit the fallen empire of Xen'Drik, another continent to the southwest of Khorvaire. Since setting RHOD makes most sense in Khorvaire, it makes very little sense for a DM to have Warklegnaw's tribe of Forest Giants in the area.

Here are some ideas:
I personally used Lycanthropes. Purged to near extinction by the Church of the Silver Flame in the past, isolated enclaves could still be discovered by the PCs. If the PCs are working for the Silver Flame, this might even be a chance to offer reconciliation. For irony, I made Amery Vraath a former Silver Flame paladin who got turned into a lycanthrope himself.
Trolls: While the main issue with trolls is that they're not intelligent, it might make a lot of sense for them to not want to let the Red Hand Horde pass. They also live in forests.
Ogres: Most ogres in Khorvaire are mercenaries from Droaam. In the Last War, many of them were conscripted for various nations, but after the war ended there could be any number of them hiding out in forests and other secluded areas.

The Elsir Vale
"If you want to escape the Last War, move to the Elsir Vale."
--Beggar Dane

RHOD describes the Elsir Vale as a very isolated and backwater area.

One major issue here is that in Eberron, long-range transportation is relatively easy to come by (the Lightning Rail and Airships contribute a lot to this). As such, it is more difficult to isolate the Elsir Vale. Thankfully, there are still large stretches of land that are not accessible by lightning rail, and airships are relatively expensive to charter at the PCs' level.

Another is that the highly-charged political climate left by the Last War makes large massed military movements very sensitive events; this actually helps the DM explain why neither the formidable armies of the rich, technologically-advanced Breland, nor the zealous paladins and crusaders of Thrane, nor the arcane knights of Aundair, nor the undead legions of Karrnath can be bothered to deal with the Red Hand threat. They might be aware of it, but moving large armies close to any borders (three out of the four suggested locations are very close to international borders) might spark the Last War all over again.

Eberron is a very large setting, and even on the densely-populated continent of Khorvaire, there are many isolated and deserted areas that the game can be set in. The map shows an area about 320 x 240 miles, which can be easily wedged into the following suggested locations:

The Western Eldeen Reaches
This is probably the most isolated part of the Eldeen Reaches, being wedged in between the Shadowcrags and the Byeshk mountains.
Pros:
-Pretty much the middle of nowhere.
-This is the best place to explain the elves.
Cons:
-Too far from any populated hobgoblin areas.
-Mostly dense forest, although some rolling plains are available. The geography of the adventure assumes a very open vale with mountainous areas.

Karrnathi-Talenta Plains Border
Another isolated area.
Pros:
-There is nothing much here; the Giantshield Mountains can fit neatly into the map as part of the Ironroot range.
-There is enough space to fit in Brindol without overwriting or deleting any town.
-Irontown can replace Dennovar.
Cons:
-The Wyvernwatch and Wyrmsmoke Mountains don't seem to fit in well with the Talenta Plains.

The New Cyre Periphery in Breland
This is where I personally inserted the Elsir Vale, as the area is mostly featureless. It's also very close to the Mournland, which could explain why it's so isolated.
Pros:
-Isolation, distance from capital ensures difficulty in calling for military support. Close to traditional goblinoid land (Darguun).
-Vathirond can replace Dennovar.
Cons:
-It takes some map rotation to fit properly. I ended up having the compass slightly tilted to the right on the main Elsir Vale map.

Southwestern Thrane
Personally, this might be either the easiest or most difficult area to adapt.
Pros:
-Thrane's strong militant Church of the Silver Flame could be a good employer for the PCs
-It is possible to do away with the RHOD map entirely and simply use the map of Thrane; while Thrane is the smallest of the Five Nations, it is not really the weakest, and in this case the Red Hand horde could possibly threaten even Flamekeep, the capital, directly.
Cons:
-Southwestern Thrane borders Breland and Aundair. Any massed military movements to fortresses on the border (such as Fort Light) might be difficult to explain away politics-wise, as Aundair is closest to Fort Light, and relations between Aundair and Thrane are not at all pleasant. Breland might be more tolerant, but it also has large fortifications on the border (such as Sword Keep), making this an unpleasant political situation. Perhaps if this were the case, it would be good to insert a political angle, adding to the pressure of solving the Red Hand problem before all three nations fall right back into another war.
-If you want to keep the RHOD map, it might have to be completely inverted. However, this presents its own difficulties:

Lake Rhestin is replaced by the much large Lake Brey; Lake Brey is on the border between Breland and Thrane.
There are no mountains in this area; the closest are the rather distant Blackcaps in Breland.
There is simply no space for the Thornwaste or the Wyvernwatch mountains.
As such, if you want a Thrane campaign, I propose the following:
-The PCs could be dispatched to a small border town (Fort Light) to halt the hobgoblins raiding out of the
-Azarr Kul's objective is Flamekeep itself! He could plan to free the demon lord imprisoned within the Silver Flame. With the power of a Rakshasa Rajah (feel free to fluff the Rajah as a minion of Tiamat, it would be much easier for A.K. to free Tiamat as he prepares an assault on Argonnessen).

Conversion suggestions:

Instead of the Wyrmsmokes, the Fane of Tiamat could instead be in Khyber deep under the Greenhaunt across the border in Breland. (The border troubles will also make for a lot of political intrigue as the PCs try to deal with Brelish and Aundairian diplomatic/military pressure.)
Because of this, the Red Hand's movement will be in a northeasterly direction instead of south, then east, as in the module.
Skull Creek could run across the border between Breland and Thrane, and the bridge crosses the road between Sword Keep and Fort Light.
Replace Drellin's Ferry with Fort Light. This could make it a great deal more fortified and defensible, but in this case you could have an overwhelmingly large force of hobgoblins coming. The primary difficulty the PCs might have in the module by RAW is persuading an indecisive Norro Wiston--in this case it could be dissuading an overzealous Norro Wiston from making a stand.
Replace the Witchwood with the Imstil Forest. You will have to spread the Imstil Forest some more to cover the highway that leads into Breland.
Replace Terrelton with Rellekor.
Replace Talar with Tellyn.
Replace Brindol with Sigilstar. Of course, the Cathedral of Pelor will be a Cathedral of the Silver Flame instead.
The ultimate destination for Azarr Kul will actually be Flamekeep in Northern Thrane, but since Sigilstar is in the dead center of the nation, it is a great position to start spreading out.

Recommendations Per Chapter
I. The Witchwood

a. NPCs:

i. Change all references to Pelor to Dol Arrah. As the goddess of the sun and war, Dol Arrah's clerics will be a bit tougher, although they will be fewer. Most of the priests will be experts.

ii. Soranna can be a Deneith Dragonmarked heir, giving her a great deal more importance to the people.

iii. I had Delora Zann as a House Vadalis excoriate.

iv. Kellin Shadowbanks, as a inn owner, could very likely be a House Ghallanda representative.

v. Avarthel could be a reclusive Orc Gatekeeper druid, or perhaps a civilization-friendly Warden of the Wood.

vi. Jarret Nurth: As a "red herring" NPC, she could easily be a cleric of the Mockery.

b. Setting:

i. If you use Lycanthropes in place of Forest Giants, you could have Vraath Keep littered with the skeletons of wereboars and werebears instead.
II. The Ruins of Rhest

a. Setting:

i. Rhest will most likely be an ancient Dhakaani ruin. It could be sunk in the marshes on the edge of Lake Brey (if you chose the Thrane option) or any other large body of water.

ii. The Tiri Kitor encampment: Since elves aren't tree-loving hippies in Eberron, making this group an encampment of shifters instead works well. I still kept them elves (Wardens of the Wood), but shifters thematically fit this perfectly. They will be fierce, independent, and possibly difficult to recruit.

b. NPCs:

i. Miha Serani: A changeling with sorcerer (or psion!) levels works well, and so does a rakshasa (though this makes her stronger and possibly an encounter for much later in the game)

ii. Killiar Arrowswift: Being a shifter will explain his rather gruff initial attitude. Also, I recommend that their names be changed. Honestly, I found their naming conventions very WoW-ish. Look up Night Elf NPCs in Warcraft and you'll see what I mean.

iii. Sellyria Starsinger: A shifter Moonspeaker druid might work well here. Also, she has a pet croc, right? If she's a shifter, you could make her a longtooth/beasthide shifter---descended from a werecrocodile.

iv. Trellara Nightshadow: Not sure what to do with her. You could keep her as a shifter bard with an unusually high charisma, or simply perhaps make her an emotionally unstable Wilder (see Races of Eberron's Shifter Wilder substitution levels).

v. Illian Snowmantle: Balinor works well as a substitute for Corellon.

c. Encounters:

i. Dirty Rotten Looters: If you played up the "border troubles" angle, these guys could be an actual Silver Flame Inquisitor/Dark Lanterns/Royal Eyes of Aundair/Cyran Avenger/Order of the Emerald Claw hit squad instead of a pathetic bunch of amoral goons.

ii. The Lizardfolk: Considering that the MM3 Lizardfolk (Poison dusks and blackscales) figure well in Eberron's canon, a group of these guys could have been brought in by Saarvith and Regiarix and bred for war.
III. The Ghostlord's Lair

a. NPCs.

i. The Ghostlord: The heart and soul of this chapter. I wrote him up as an ancient Dhakaani (hobgoblin) Gatekeeper druid who was driven insane by the Daelkyr invasion. He invented the bonedrinkers, inspired by the Daelkyr's often tentacled aberrations.

ii. Wyrmlord Ulwai: No real suggestions here, apart from please use another depiction of her. I can't stand her "80s dominatrix catgirl" look in the book. She's [i]supposed to be hot.

b. Setting.

i. I fluffed the entire Thornwaste as a barren and blasted land stripped of natural life by the Daelkyr invasion, and it's still like that. Most of the animals that live here are aberrant at best and half-farspawn horrors at worst.
IV. Enemy at the Gates

a. NPCs

i. Jarmaath will definitely be a war hero from the Last War, although not quite as strong as he used to be. He could be a lot less noble (perhaps desiring a vainglorious end as he makes a final stand against the Red Hand), however, presenting the PCs with a complex moral dilemma: Do they support the rightful lord of the land and sacrifice the people, or subvert him and side with Lady Kaal, whose methods are reprehensible, yet truly wants to save Brindol?

ii. Lady Kaal could be a potential primary villain here: She could actually be a foreign sleeper agent, planted to undermine local sovereignty by spreading crime, or to simply be a spy. As such, she might work best as a member of the Royal Eyes of Aundair, or perhaps a Brelish Dark Lantern. Alternatively, she could be secretly a member of House Tarkanan and possess a hidden aberrant dragonmark.

iii. Tredora Goldenbrow: Aasimar are very rare in Eberron, but she is most likely going to be a cleric of either Dol Arrah or the Silver Flame.

iv. Lars Ulverth: He could easily be Soranna Anitah's House Deneith superior, or a war hero, or both.

v. Immerstal the Red: Artificer would work as well as Wizard.

b. The Siege of Brindol:

i. Bombardment: I used homebrewed Warforged Titan variants, since giants, as mentioned above, aren't native to Khorvaire. Skullcrusher ogres work well, though. Alternatively, traditional siege engines could work.

ii. Kharn's Retinue: Again, scrap the giants. Skullcrusher ogres with class levels work well, as do Spawn of Tiamat (Redspawn Berserkers [Dragon Magic], or Whitespawn Berserkers [MMIV] could work well).
V. The Fane of Tiamat

a. Setting:

i. The Wyrmsmokes: I went ahead and just plopped down the Wyrmsmokes in the middle of Eastern Breland, but this could be more difficult in more constrained areas (namely Southwestern Thrane). Regardless, as a volcanic area, it is quite likely that it could be a Fernia manifest zone and as such have a lot of diabolic interlopers.

ii. Khyber: The alternative is to bury the Fane deep underground. It could be rather eerie for the PCs to travel for days in pitch-dark tunnels, only to see an immense, yawning abyss beneath them, and the vast, dimly-lit Tiamat sculpture stretching from deep below.

iii. What the Fane of Tiamat Really Is: This is up to you, but I had the PCs discover that the Fane is actually a part of Tiamat's vast prison (or at least its support system). Since Tiamat isn't trapped in the Nine Hells (which don't exist in Eberron), she has no strong ties to devils and extraplanar enemies. Instead, I had Azarr Kul attempting to manipulate the Planes to slow or stop them, causing Tiamat's prison in Argonnessen to catastrophically fail.

iv. To this end, Azarr Kul was using a large eldritch engine---a planar orrery---to stop the planar orbits.

b. Encounters:

i. Tyrgarun: If he's fought in Khyber, this encounter is going to be a lot more interesting. He can see much farther than any of the PCs, and can potentially fight in complete darkness (thanks to Blindsight).

ii. Laryssa: If you're like me and absolutely hated the "lol Azarr Kul has a cannibalistic night hag cook" encounter, feel free to swap her out with another Rakshasa encounter. In this case I threw a Naztharune Rakshasa with one Swordsage level at them.

iii. The Fane is Ancient Dragontech: To play up this angle, I had some traps that were part of the original structure. Azarr Kul's forces have found fighting them not worth the trouble, and so have left them in place as barely-controllable guard systems. As such, I had the original dragon constructors leaving a dragon-like iron golem in the main corridor, as well as a Spell Turret.

iv. Devils: Devils have no true strong relationship with Tiamat, so I fluffed them as fiends who got through the portal as Azarr Kul weakened the planar boundaries.

v. The Barracks: Instead of having just one dragon, I had several young dragons hanging dismembered and disemboweled here. They were the children of the original guardian of the Fane, a great wyrm bronze dragon tasked to maintain the Inner Sanctum's power systems. The dragon has since died, and it was unable to pass on the true nature of the Fane to its children. The children were overwhelmed by Tyrgarun and thrown to the devil army as food.

vi. Azarr Kul: There are many suggestions to fix this encounter, but I think that if AK manages to get his buff spells up, the PCs have a full-power Clericzilla on their hands. Whatever the case, when AK dies, I made it so that he uses the last of his strength to shift the planar orrery to directly breach Tiamat's prison, with just enough energy for her to project an Aspect through.

vii. Aspect of Tiamat: If you really want the aspect to be tough, give her cleric casting equal to her HD.

c. Conclusion:

i. If the Aspect of Tiamat breaks free and the PCs don't kill it, she could prove to be a very devastating "optional boss" monster, ravaging the countryside.

ii. If the border troubles escalate into full-blown diplomatic hostility, you could easily have a reignited Last War.

iii. If Azarr Kul completes his objective, congratulations. You now have an Elder Evil campaign. The Dragons of Argonnessen mobilize to attack Azarr Kul, likely razing all of Khorvaire to the ground in the process. Thrane Paladins mounted on wyverns will dogfight with dragons in the skies over Flamekeep as the Fiend in the Flame awakens. Flights of great wyrm dragons will airdrop Seren Barbarians onto Sharn. The Fiend in the Flame strides across the ocean to Argonnessen, swatting aside Light of Siberys crusader dragons as he marches. When he reaches the Pit of Five Sorrows, the Current Age will end, and a new Age of Demons will begin.

As another Eberron-themed adaptation, consider making the module all about the Lord of Blades rather than Azarr Kul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424773-Adapting-Red-Hand-of-Doom-to-be-about-the-Lord-of-Blades).

Running RHOD in Greyhawk
Courtesy of the dedicated and possibly even more devastatingly handsome Elder Basilisk!
This is where I get to rant and rave about how the character limit of these posts is way too small for all the good resources we get from this thread. But because the character limit is too small, let me sum up instead.

Elder_Basilisk has done a very thorough rundown of how to run RHOD in Greyhawk, right down to converted maps. It's right here in this very thread, and can be found starting right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?171284-The-3-5-Red-Hand-Of-Doom-Handbook-for-DMs-Major-spoilers!-WIP-PEACH!/page31).

For those of you who want single posts to work from, the following posts should be read: 923 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18841635&postcount=923), 924 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18841650&postcount=924), 927 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18861820&postcount=927), 928 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18861910&postcount=928), 929 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18890953&postcount=929), 942 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19081106&postcount=942), 945 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19119551&postcount=945), and 947 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19121144&postcount=947).

My omitting the full text should not be regarded as me thinking it's unworthy of inclusion. The simple fact is there just isn't enough character space to put it in here, and the other conversions we have are not replicated in the thread.

Running RHOD in Rokugan/Oriental Adventures
This can be a bit of a controversial subject since Rokugan's setting is fundamentally different on so many levels it makes it tricky to set RHOD 'as is' within it. But one general rundown on how to do it is contained in this contribution from SleepyShadow:

I ran this in the Oriental Adventures setting of Rokugan with some pretty solid success. The hobgoblins were members of the Spider Clan, and Tiamat was replaced with Fu Leng the Shadow Dragon (essentially the evil dragon god of the setting). I turned the blade-bearers and sergeants into OA samurai, which went a long way toward solving their usual will save issues. The hobgoblin invasion largely took place in Crab clan territory, except for the part with the Tiri-Kitor who got turned into members of the neighboring Unicorn clan. The Ghostlord got reworked as an outcast Kuni shugenja, which fixed a lot of the flavor issue of an undead druid. At the very least, he was able to put up more of a fight than a blighter would have. The dragons, by and large, just got refluffed as their wingless Rokugan equivalents, and several of the more boring members of the Red Hand (ogres, lizardfolk, etc.) got replaced with Shadowlands oni of various types. Instead of the battle taking place at a Brindol replacement, I upped the scale of the invasion and had it take place along the entire Carpenter Wall to bring home the fact that if the party failed, it wasn't just one city that would be lost. It would be all of Rokugan. Wyrmlord Azarr Kul also got refluffed as a member of the Diagotsu family, and the Avatar of Tiamat/Fu Leng only needed some cosmetic changes to work out fine.

Running RHOD under Pathfinder
Glyphstone has been conducting a Pathfinder campaign using RHOD; you can find the journal here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218881).

Without going through it, though, in summary, Glyphstone makes these observations:

Pathfinder base classes are roughly 0.5-1 ECL higher than their 3.5 equivalents, and a 6-person party is about the same. So, when the characters are level 6, they've got the damage output, and more importantly, the action economy, of a level 7-8 party.
Hobgoblin Veterans are horribly, horribly outclassed - they're fishing for 20's against the frontline warriors, and of the rest of the group, only the squishy types will have an AC lower than 20. Fights may do better with more emphasis on the monsters and 'special' creatures, with the troopers using Aid Another actions or forming Shield Walls with tower shields to cover archers.
On the other hand, Miha Serani becomes interesting. To start with, Pathfinder Araneas are 5th level casters instead of 3rd level, and with roughly 50% more innate HP. Slap 4 Sorcerer levels on her, she'll be CR 9, sporting 4th level spells - a good combat encounter, but not so much on the spy-and-infiltrate role she plays in the story. One possibility is to make her a Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 3 - CR10 nominally, with the casting output of an 8th level Sorcerer instead and a bit more durability.

Antariuk has also been working on a Pathfinder conversion for RHOD: you can find his work-in-progress here (http://fallschaden.blogspot.de/p/red-hand-of-doom.html).

Running RHOD in Equestria (yes. Yes you can. And it is glorious.)
Full credit to MandibleBones on this one. Taking his notes verbatim from the thread...)

On Setting Adaptation:
1. Where is the Elsir Vale? I put it at the westernmost edge of Equestria, fiat-ed the plains of Zebrica to replace the Endless Plains, made everyting west of the Old North Road and south of The Endless Plains Zebrica “Dragon Lands” (including the Thornwaste), and made a note that the Wyvernwatch Mountains are home to the southern griffon tribes. The city of Brindle becomes Bridle, the city of Dennovar becomes Stalliongrad, and the rest of the towns keep their names.

2. The ponies of the vale are used to dragons existing, but they never seem to come down from the Wyrmsmokes (until the events of Red Hand of Doom). These “hobgoblins” are totally new to them, however: creatures out of myth and legend from pre-Discordian times.

3. My party was starting out from Bridle (Brindol), so they were a little more familiar with it to start with. Some of them lived in the city prior to the events of the Red Hand, so they know the basics of the citizenry. I use a wiki to keep track of things; it helps my players as well.

On Statistics
1. Initially made the mistake of taking the cover at face value; all my PCs start at 6, and there are 6 of them. Adaptation is obviously required.

2. I wanted to see how the PCs handled combat together before tweaking too much. Uth-Larr got boosted to be a Spellscourge (MMV), and the cleric remained a cleric, though I gave Zarr level 6 and the Law and Trickery. I took the advice from this thread, made the hell hounds draconic, and swapped out some feat to make them Napalm Hounds. The regulars got to be Fighter 1s instead of Warrior 2s; I gave them max HP. Two of them got Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot and did some fairly decent damage with their longbow (one of them critted); the other four got Power Attack and Weapon Focus: Longsword.
- The melee hobs got killed / knocked out pretty quickly; the archers were further back and managed to retreat behind Uth-Larr once he came out. Napalm Hounds got to deal some damage before getting cut to ribbons by the barbarian. Zarr managed to hit the NG Magical Girl and the CG Barbarian with a scroll-based Word of Law from under Invisibility, which wasn't terribly fun for them.
- Turns out my party is also fairly optimized, and while it was a good fight, the party won it pretty handily despite it being EL8.
- Because the party has a Magical Girl, they took one of the regulars and Uth-Larr alive. I've been having a great deal of fun running Kerak (the name I gave the regular) and fanatic Uth-Larr as Shining Hope tries to make friends with them. It's not going so well, but at least they're locked up in Drellin's Ferry now.

3. On the Witchwood: I'ma give that hydra more heads. Hydras love heads. Action-economy being what it is, I figure aiming for a higher CR is better than a lower one, so an 8-10-headed cryohydra is headed the party's way. I actually think this is going to be a ridiculous challenge. Edit: Actually, a cryohydra would kill them outright. A 24d6 (reflex half) breath weapon as a CR9? Really? But an 8-headed hydra is... underwhelming without the scary breath weapon, even with Fast Healing and regenerating heads. A ten-headed is an attack for everybody and two for four of them, so this should go well.

For further details, watch the thread. Bones also notes that Equestria does materially change stuff because suddenly a good portion of your party ponies will be flying combatants from the get-go.

Running RHOD under E6
While I've yet to hear reports back from anyone running RHOD in E6, we've had the odd query about how this would pan out. Here's my thoughts on the subject:

Looking at the notes about how E6 functions (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352719-necro-goodness-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D), E6 RHOD would prrrrobably challenge the party on more or less even terms until late in the campaign, since E6 seems to contemplate that CR 7 - 10 can be handled by a level 6 party, and RHOD is meant to run from levels 5 - 11.

My guess is that E6 probably renders a lot of what I say in this guide as unnecessary. The handbook's built envisioning a party of semi-to-decent competence at optimisation, and most of the advice is built around improving the monsters to meet the ever-more-powerful party as it slowly levels up. But if E6 proposes basically no new spells, no BAB increase, no save increases and only extra feats from the point of level 6, which the party hits around Vraath Keep or Skull Gorge on my experience, then there's practically no need to change much else about RHOD given its monsters assume a slowly-improving party as the campaign goes on.

I suspect the Battle of Brindol probably becomes a lot more brutal and possibly needing a bit more DM support since it takes out the last shelter of the 15-minute adventuring day that the party still has available to it under E6. And the Fane probably becomes a lot scarier given you're sending basically level 6 math at level 10, 11 encounters.

Running RHOD in other settings
...Taking suggestions, people! :smallbiggrin:

Running RHOD in ANY SETTING
Courtesy of ksbsnowowl:
The bones of the adventure are REALLY solid; I’m sure many of us see it as the best D&D module ever written. The adventure all (except the Fane, perhaps) works really well. The story Baker and Jacobs wrote is good. But the story and the framework of the adventure are different halves of the whole. The story can be changed while leaving the solid framework intact. Strip away the “window dressing” of hobgoblins, dragons, and Tiamat, and you’re left with a great starting point to craft your own adventure, flavored to taste.

Think of the adventure as a generalized flow chart.
Ambush on the road —> semi-remote town —> wilderness —> Army’s forward scouting base (Vraath Keep) —> secondary forward base/choke point (bridge) —> attack on remote town —> Army raiding & pillaging/Party evacuating towns —> army movement toward climactic battle location —> investigate secondary, off-the-beaten-path location where Army is breeding monsters for the main assault —> find blackmail item —> meet/recruit potential allies —> investigate tertiary location indicated on map, base of blackmailed Army ally —> solve Big Bad Evil Ally blackmail situation —> audience with the Lords —> climactic battle —> investigate Army home base —> deal with fiendish interlopers and BBEG.

Treating it in this manner allows you to see more possibilities, and opens up how you can utilize the adventure. It can be adapted to a wildly-different campaign world/map very easily.

Last time I largely stuck to that flow chart. There were setting/flavor alterations that changed it up a bit, though. Some were just map-influenced differences (Rhest was now on something akin to the Svalbard archipelago; the party had to take a longship to get there), while others changed the framework structure a bit more.

The semi-remote town (Drellin’s Ferry) became two semi-remote towns about 3 days’ travel apart, separated by a ravine with a bridge. The party’s “home base” (‘Drellin’s Ferry’) was the smaller of the two towns, and the party was worried about slowing the army reaching the second, smaller town, figuring the first town was a lost cause, so evacuated what they could of the first town, then collapsed the bridge between them, then tried to put up resistance (cue ‘Massacre at Drellin’s Ferry’ waves of bad guys).

Another big change was that this area of my world was peppered with menhir circles, much like the Forgotten Realms’ Yuirwood. I had incorporated the Master of the Yuirwood PrC as an ancient order in the region, as well as the Menhir portal rules (FRCS and UE). The trollish Tanarukk army made use of the malfunctioning portal activation aspect of the menhirs to their advantage to speed their travel somewhat. Most of the Red Hand’s movement occurs off-screen anyway; doing this added more tension if the PC’s discovered it, and gave them one more opportunity to slow the army (assassinate the half-elf hostages the army is going to use to activate the menhirs?)

Those are the big changes to the framework I made to the first 3 chapters of the framework. Slight alterations to structure, lots of alternations to the flavor and ‘window dressing,’ and it was a completely different-feeling campaign than RHoD as written.

This upcoming time the setting flavor will be a lot more similar to the published adventure than last time (though still different, being a chaotic horde of Beastmen), but I’m going to make a lot more changes to the framework.

I’m starting them at 7th level, regular, non-Gestalt characters. I’m going to completely omit the Rhest and Ghostlord side-quests and storylines (thus, they’ll still be ~9th level for the ‘Battle of Brindol’), just because that’s all the time I want this campaign to run for this time (and it will help disguise the similarity when I do run RHoD as written in a few years). Skull Gorge Bridge will be split into a border fortification on the mountainous edge of the country the Party will be defending, with a separate (relatively nearby) mountain pass that the party will be able to block via an avalanche. I’m planning that the party will clear out the Beastmen from the boarder fort, then help hold that fort as the ‘massacre at Drellin’s Ferry’ encounter vignette. Then I’m planning for their Drellin’s Ferry remote town location to be the location for the ‘Battle of Brindol,’ but fully realizing they may chose to abandon it to pull back to ‘Dennovar’ (which is the city they’re currently adventuring in, Brindinford from Speaker in Dreams). Basically I’m just leaving the possibilities open.

As I mentioned before, I’m taking a lot of inspiration from Warhammer’s Beastmen for this army horde. In that lore, basically there were Chaos meteors that crashed down and caused the mutation of humans into Beastmen within the regions that were struck. For my iteration, the ‘Fane of Tiamat’ will be in the region that was recently struck by a meteor. It was a human mountain town that had a Svirfneblin community underneath it. The Fane will be the surviving halls and tunnels of the Svirfneblin settlement, now broken open and exposed by the crater from the meteor strike. I will be modeling much of it off the 2e Hellgate Keep adventure location. The party will have to assault it to learn the truth of the horde’s origins, and stop them from rebuilding their numbers…

This got longer than I intended, but I hope it illustrates how adaptable Red Hand of Doom can be. Adjust the framework a bit, and completely reskin the adventure, and you can rerun it with the same group, and there’s a fair chance they won’t even notice you are ‘rerunning’ the ‘same’ adventure.

SPECIAL MENTION: Running Red Hand of Doom in 5e
If you're looking to convert RHOD for use in Fifth Edition, I recommend starting at Draz's guide to doing just that! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577848-Red-Hand-of-Doom-Conversion-Journal-in-one)

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:41 AM

Part One: Drellin's Ferry to Skull Gorge Bridge

https://images2.imgbox.com/dd/03/Kns0WaKc_o.jpg

The Bridges of Madison County of Death.

How to play Jorr Natherson
ThiagoMartell's post is the first and last advice on this subject:

My players met Jorr today. I RPed him like Clint Eastwood's character in Gran Torino.
"Get off my lawn"
They loved it.

Restatting Koth
Koth is the first major spellcasting challenge the party faces. And even Koth, allegedly the weakest Wyrmlord in the Hand, can be made a lot more deadly than he first appears. Unlike most Wyrmlords, he shouldn’t need a lot of alterations or increases in level simply because his potential is already there. Remember that unless your players are badly spamming roleplaying XP, they should still only be around level 5-6 when they first hit Vraath Keep. Having said that, some alternatives to the book build--

Leaving Koth as a Sorcerer: One thing a lot of DMs miss about Koth’s stats: although he’s a Sorcerer 6, he has 9 HD. Can you say Practiced Spellcaster, children? I knew you could! Lose the Persuasive feat for this, if you make no other changes to him. After that it’s a matter of switching spells if you’re inclined to do so, and all you really need do is change his Lightning Bolt spell to Fireball. This is a much more dangerous choice in the tight quarters of Vraath Keep, and flinging around 9d6 damage spells can toast even optimized fifth level parties.

If you need more feats, replace Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will. One Potion of Conviction does the same thing or better depending on the potion's CL.

Some insightful people have also pointed out that Koth has an empty class feature: no familiar. Seeing as a familiar is only going to be laughable at level 6 (as with Saarvith), the better route is to trade it out for the ACF Spell Shield from Dungeonscape and switch out his Move Silently skill for Concentration. This ACF then gives you a chance at enhancing Koth's survivability.

As for spells, Detect Thoughts serves very little in-game purpose, but other than that his selection is all right. And bear in mind he’s not alone in fighting the PCs. If you’re determined to hand the PCs’ butts to them, change his spell selections to debuffs that don’t directly damage the party and just have him go invisible as long as possible. Maybe give him a couple of arcane scrolls like Haste, but that’s about it.

Monster Manual 4 rebuild: if you want to cotton the PCs onto the existence of the Spawn of Tiamat early in the adventure, consider replacing Koth with a Redspawn Arcaniss from the MM 4, who is notionally a CR 6 (and doesn’t even need class levels whacked onto him, so at least he’s less work.) Given its statblock, it almost looks as if an Arcaniss was the original intended ‘level boss’ for this part, but was reworked to become Koth. Me, personally I wouldn’t since it takes away from the novelty and creepiness of the greenspawn razorfiends later in the adventure -- which I would guess is why Koth isn't a redspawn arcaniss -- but it’s up to you.

Koth as a Dragonfire Adept 6: Courtesy of Draz, who reckons from personal experience that this produces a nice, "close" fight for a four-man party. Less bookkeeping, harder to kill and with a nice battlefield controller feel:
LE Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Bugbear Dragonfire Adept 6
* * *
Str 16 (+3); Dex 16 (+3); Con 16 (+3); Int 8 (-1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 14 (+2)
Init +5; Fort +9; Ref +8; Will +8
HP 68 (9d8+28); AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16; BAB +5; Speed 30
Languages: Goblin, Common
* * *
Features: darkvision 60 feet; natural armor +3; Move Silently +4; breath weapon; invocations; dragonkin (+4 Diplomacy; resist frightful presence); DR 2/magic; proficient with simple weapons.
* * *
Feats: Entangling Exhalation, Draconic Aura (senses), Iron Will, Ability Focus (breath weapon)
* * *
Skills (24 points)
5 Hide (+8), 1 Move Silently (+8), 6 Listen (+9), 1 Know(arcana)(+0), 1 Spellcraft (+0), 5 Bluff (+13), 5 Intimidate (+13), 0 Diplomacy (+10)
armor check penalty: 0
* * *
Combat
Melee morningstar +9 (1d8+3)
* * *
Equipment
Wand of Magic Missile (CL 5)[15], mwk morningstar with wand chamber, Type I Bag of Holding, Scroll (Mount, CL 6), Elixir of Truth [2], mwk studded leather armor, 2980 sp
* * *
Combat "Spells"
Fire blast: 3d6 fire damage (Ref DC 18 half); 15-ft cone or 30-ft line.
Lightning blast: 3d6 electricity damage (Ref DC 18 half); 30-ft line.
Weakening curse: -6 Strength penalty for 4 rounds (Fort DC 18 half duration); 15-ft cone.
* * *
Invocations
Caster Level 6; Arcane Spell Failure 15%
Least: Beguiling Influence, Deafening Roar (Fort DC 14 neg.)
Lesser: Draconic Flight
The operative tactic here is to use Koth as a true support character: he flies around, breathes fire, and entangles the partymembers so the other mooks can get some shots in at him. It also requires Koth to get out of the barracks and into the air above the Keep, although for most versions of the Vraath Keep fight this is probably an essential anyway. The only downside to it is originality: Koth thereby becomes a de facto dragon, and you've already got at least four of 'em in this campaign to begin with. On the other hand, it is dragon-themed, and the reasoning becomes stronger for why Koth, a mere bugbear sorcerer, is a Wyrmlord: because he's a dragonfire adept.

Other thoughts:As a serious challenge to a fifth level party, make Koth a Hobgoblin Warsoul (Monster Manual 5). No added levels needed here, it's fairly deadly at CR 9 or 10.

The Chimaera, the Raid, and PbP campaigns
I don’t know many people who’ve had a lot to say about the two other major Red Hand encounters in this part of the adventure, mostly because they’re the sort of encounter that doesn’t really inspire a lot of thought one way or the other. The Chimaera is an exercise in dragon-lite, and the Red Hand raid on the west bank of the Elsir is an exercise in dealing with mounted troops.

For PbP campaigns, I’d recommend either skipping these encounters simply because of the length of the adventure. They don’t add a hell of a lot to the story; they’re more like wandering monster encounters home delivered, designed to tell the party to hurry up if it’s cooling its heels in the Ferry.

Glyphstone made one very simple reuse of the encounter: bring on the chimaera if the party chooses to escort the Ferryfolk back to Brindol!

If the party manages to capture Koth, there is perhaps one use to be made of these two encounters. If Koth is captured, he’d likely be kept at the Old Toll House for further interrogation or transport back to Brindol. The night this takes place, perhaps the Hand forces attempt a rescue, using the West Bank raid as a diversion while six hobgoblin regulars drift across the Elsir on fallen logs and the chimaera flies in as Koth's getaway car. The players get warned of a raid on the West Bank … but just as they’re about to board the Ferry, someone with a decent Spot check sees the hobgoblins floating in close to the Old Toll House. It’s a nice roleplaying dilemma: help the West Bank, or stop Koth from escaping? I even got my players to split the party on that one.

Restatting Red Hand operatives

Karkilan: At Vraath Keep, consider giving Karkilan (the minotaur, Koth’s ‘general’) a single level in Boar Totem Barbarian – which drops his speed by 10 feet (it’s fairly close quarters in Vraath Keep, remember) but gives him Diehard as feat. Add Extend Rage, Great Fortitude, et cetera, et cetera as the King of Siam says. Being a single melee type outgunned on action economy with large parties, the focus needs to be on him doing some major damage in the one or two rounds he'll probably live. Combined with Haste and maybe a potion of Bull’s Strength or Resist Energy this makes him dangerous to a fifth level party: a minotaur that goes on rage, charges, and then starts wailing into people with one massive axe and just won’t go down even as he hits 0 hitpoints.

One effective alternative: Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, armed with a guisarme, and taking Improved Trip. This gives him three AoOs. Rather than wailing in with a greataxe, he concentrates on simple trip tactics.

Another simple alternative – Mineral Warrior template and done.

Everyone else: The manticore is fine; the hydra’s fine; the hobgoblin troops can be improved as per general advice above; the two worg riders are just sucky and aren't likely to get a hell of a lot better at their levels of competence.

For large (8 player) parties, a couple of redspawn arcaniss added to Koth's entourage makes for a seriously challenging fight.

Skull Gorge troops: The troops can be restatted according to the general guides above, but consider adding a low level bard into the mix who plays his music on a set of war drums inside one of the tents on the far side of the Gorge. The gorge itself allows an echo effect which gives the rest of the hobgoblins the capacity to draw off the morale-boosting effect, but it also forces the party to make Listen checks at substantial negatives to figure out where the “music” is coming from.

To make things interesting, I assumed that because of the summer heat, the Witchwood south of the Gorge is dry tinder. First thing the hobgoblin archers on the towers did was to light up their arrows and then set the forest on fire behind the party. No retreat for you! I also gave each of the hobgoblin archers a potion of Feather Fall so they could jump off the towers and get to the bottom of the bridge a lot faster.

Restatting Ozyrrandion
Ozzie is the youngest and the least powerful of the RHOD dragons, but he still can be deadly at these levels, particularly if he’s beefed up using the general suggestions at the front of the thread. The level of alteration depends on the level of optimization of your party: accounts of the Skull Gorge battle range from one-round takedowns of Ozzie to multiple PC deaths at his talons. Using him effectively involves using the terrain: RHOD says the Skull Gorge battle really favours archers, but what it actually favours is Ozzy in flight – he doesn’t have to ascend to get to a good striking altitude, and the terrain favours strafing runs followed by quick flights back to the far side of the gorge to let his breath recharge.

I personally tended towards the metabreath feats Lingering Breath and Clinging Breath as battlefield control against my players, and Ozzie certainly lasted longer than Reggie did later on. :) Of all the dragons, he’s the most vulnerable to dogpiling by the party in melee, and should be using the standard breathe-and-retreat tactic the Gorge is built for.

In case it weren’t specific – he needs to be upgraded from Young to Juvenile, if for no other reason than that he becomes a caster when he does. This gives him many more options. The authors know full well he’s underpowered since they throw him a CON-boosting amulet to increase his hitpoints, but none of this needs to be removed in the size upgrade.

Moving the party on from Part One to Part Two
The hook for PCs to head in the direction of Rhest is Teyani Sura’s arrival and the indication that there’s a roadblock to the north which needs to be broken if reinforcements are due to come from "somewhere" in the north.

Many DMs find this hook unsatisfactory. It's the kind of thing you’d expect a well-armed monarch's force to do themselves. And it doesn’t give the party a need to go into the Blackfens at all. The blockade is on the Old Rhest Trail, and on the maps as drawn the Trail isn’t in the swamp; it takes, shall we say, a considerable deal of choo-choo’ing for the party to encounter the razorfiend.

It’s also a bit odd that Norro Wiston, a village mayor, is able to speak for regional autocrat Jarmaath (kinda out of his league, one would have thought). Not to mention that it’s odd that Teyani Sura is out riding a hundred miles west of Brindol to tell villages the road north of Brindol is blocked.

So how do you fix it? Some suggestions:

Have Jarmaath send them out there. If the party wants to convince Jarmaath of the Red Hand’s threat, consider obliging them. Doing so consumes a useful few days on the timeline and allows Jarmaath to personally dispatch the PCs out to break up the blockade. This then meshes nicely with Jarmaath being overly welcoming of the characters when they get back for the Battle of Brindol, because he’s met them before.

But there’s still the issue of the razorfiend encounter happening in the swamp, not on the Trail. One solution is to extend the swamp. When the party gets north of Witchcross, they find the Rhest Trail passes through the Blackfens rather than along its eastern edge. When the players start looking confused and pointing to the handout map of Elsir Vale they’ve probably acquired from you by then, you can ask them if they know how old the map is. And then tell them the map is, in fact, a good hundred years old or more and therefore out of date. The swamp has continued to spread over the years since anyone got out that way to survey it. This isn’t perhaps the most elegant of solutions, but it does give you swampy surrounds within which to launch the razorfiend attack.

Get Norro to suggest they go looking for a Macguffin in the swamp. For this approach, Teyani Sura describes how she and her people were attacked on the Rhest Trail by a party of hobgoblins and ogres, but doesn’t describe a blockade as such. This event should be triggered after the party realizes the Hand’s intent on smashing the hell out of the Vale and has told Norro of it. When Norro hears about the attack, he jumps to the (mistaken) conclusion that the Hand "must be looking for Cromar" (or any name you choose to dream up.)

Norro explains "Cromar" is a notable, powerful, but retired mage who chooses to live in solitude in the marsh. Norro thinks the Hand must be looking for him because he’s a powerful spellcaster – “stronger than Immerstal the Red. He was very prominent when Witchcross saw off the last serious hobgoblin raiding about fifteen years ago. They’d remember that.”

Norro knows the rough location of Cromar’s home and can describe it to the party. He begs the company to go and find him and bring him back to safety in the Vale, or at least try: “He was like a father to me. He was strong fifteen years ago, but he’s getting old; I don’t know if he’s got enough power to hold off the type of forces you say you’ve been dealing with for long at all.”

This is largely moot. Cromar was a powerful spellcaster, but has been dead for several weeks, a victim of the razorfiend that the party encounters later in the swamp. Cromar’s (shabby) home is in the swamp – it’s the ruined wizard’s tower where the party finds its ‘reward’ treasure for killing the razorfiend, since the razorfiend has holed up there. These clues can be discerned by an inspection of Cromar’s semi-ruined tower, which has nothing really to tell the party otherwise. The encounter with the razorfiend can either take place at this ruined tower or in the swamp nearby – it’s the razorfiend’s lair, and it therefore isn’t found far from there.

Under this hook, the party will probably need some other way of being told Cromar is dead and told about the roadblocks; the rest of the information will come from the Tiri Kitor instead.

Have Jarmaath send the party to the Blackfens specifically to recruit the Tiri Kitor. This obviously takes the surprise out of the first encounter with the Tiri Kitor, but it might be a stronger hook for the party than breaking up roadblocks. Or you could make it a straight request from Norro (or someone like Lady Kaal) since he understands the threat and knows they’ll need every bow they can get. Or perhaps the party can be asked to carry a message to Sellyria asking for her help.

Have some NPC point out it’s the next logical thing for the Red Hand to do, and then confirm it via Teyani Sura. This is a somewhat more subtle method but also doesn’t suffer from Teyani Sura just handing over the next plot marker on a platter. Right after Drellin’s Ferry decides to evacuate or fight, Norro Wiston sends riders up the Dawn Way to raise the alarm. In the meantime, Delora Zann (a former adventurer and one of the elders of Drellin’s Ferry) and/or Soranna Anitah muse that the next thing they’d do in the Red Hand’s shoes would be to block the Rhest Trail, since it’s the only practical direction from which reinforcements can come. As the PCs head towards Brindol to sell stuff or otherwise look for plot hooks, they run into Teyani Sura on the way who confirms this guess is correct, and asks the party to investigate on Jarmaath’s behalf.

Change the relationship of Drellin’s Ferry to Brindol. The towns and villages of Elsir Vale are more or less independent from Brindol. If the relationships are implied as much closer and direct – e.g. Norro Wiston becomes a direct vassal of Lord Jarmaath, or is someone lower in a direct hierarchy with Jarmaath at the top – then Norro speaking for Jarmaath becomes more plausible and Norro’s familiarity with strategic considerations for the whole Vale becomes more believable. Or maybe Norro has some sort of past relationship with Jarmaath, e.g. he was a former quartermaster or major-domo.

Rejigging treasures
While kjones was running RHOD, he noted that the treasure loadout in the first few chapters of RHOD was a bit wiggy if you had other than the default "fighter+cleric+rogue+mage" party ... which most DMs do. For reference you can find the full thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132739), but I do propose to unmercifully repeat the guts of the discussion here and most (if not all) of kjones' thoughts simply because I like people to be lazy. :smallsmile:

Basically, the issue is there's too little value for what the characters should be getting at their current level. The biggest treasure in this section of the game is a +1 frost bastard sword which is intended for the party tank, and it puts said tank well ahead on wealth by level.

The treasures of Chapter One also appear somewhat hampered by RHOD staying core in terms of treasure unless shoehorning something interesting onto an NPC. On the other hand, we’re told explicitly on the RHOD text that the heavy loading of treasure early on is intentional as they're trying to squeeze the party a little by the time they get to Brindol.

So: what are some suggestions for a somewhat fairer or more workable load of treasures, i.e. replacements or modifications to the treasures of Chapter one?

Marauder Attack: There's some gold in a burned-out farmhouse nearby. The party may be in need of hard coin to spend in town, so I'd leave this as is.

If your party knows what's what, they'll loot the bodies - this will be the first of many times in which they will end up with what is commonly referred to as "vendor trash". Sigh.

Blackwater Causeway: The infamous hydra. In the mud, there's a +1 mithral breastplate. 9th level (!) This is a really good item for a bard, along with a barbarian or any other front-liner who values movement or can't wear heavy armor - but it's a lot of treasure to give to one character this early on. You can swap it out for 2 x 7th-level items - consider an adamantine weapon (useful for destroying the bridge) or a lesser metamagic rod (useful for pretty much everything).

Vraath Keep: This is a biggie. The manticore has some gold and trade goods - leave it, it's what a manticore would have.

Koth has a bag of holding. You want the players to get this, if at all possible. Bags of holding enable all sorts of creative possibilities.

In the vault:
Staff of Life
Huge Spiked Gauntlet +1
Gauntlets of Ogre Power 8th level
+1 frost bastard sword 11th level
and the equivalent of 3,550 gp.

I would recommend leaving in the staff of life, as your players will not have access to resurrections for most of the campaign - this allows them the chance to make a mistake. Once.

Very important note: If you've got smart players, restat the Staff of Life so it can't do Heal spells. The Ghostlord is a lich. In the right hands a Heal can one-shot him.

(Saintheart's note: in my 8-player campaign, we opted for a slight variant on the staff's composition: it can cast raise dead once, revivify about 3 times, and heal once or twice - can't remember the exact makeup. That was mostly because action advantage meant if a character bit the dust the odds were decent someone would be able to get over to him in time. I also went for lesser armor and/or weapon crystals to even the haul out for people, too.)

Similarly, the spiked gauntlet is important for plot reasons.

The problem with the sword is that it's a type of weapon that most characters can't use, and it's too powerful. You'll be giving the fighter-type a massive boost and leaving everyone else in the lurch. My suggestion is to break it down into two 7th-level items (approximately +1 weapons or +2 armor) and a 9th-level item (an immovable rod is great for this). To keep the +1 weapons from being boring, throw in some weapon crystals - least truedeath will come in very useful, a sort of Chekov's Gun if you will.

Alternately, if you're interested in using legacy weapon rules (I know - but there are some real masochists out there) this is an excellent place to introduce such a weapon.

Turn the 8th-level item into a wand with 10 charges of some 3rd-level spell that your party lacks, and put the rest of the treasure towards whoever still doesn't have anything.

When choosing treasure here, try to figure out items that will make the battle for Skull Gorge Bridge more interesting. I gave out a ring of feather falling, with excellent results.

Skull Gorge Bridge: All the notable treasure here is equipment of either Ozyrrandion or the hobgoblins. Leave it as it is, but if you feel like you sold the players short in the vault at Vraath's Keep, you can put a "mini-hoard" on the far side of the bridge. If they take out the bridge before searching the tower, they'll have fun finding this stash...

Saintheart Note: if you feel you're still short on arcane caster items, consider leaving some treasures with Jarrett Nurth, the serial killer in Drellin's Ferry - make her a cleric/rogue of some random evil god who has no connection with the Hand at all. You could easily provide a Lesser Rod of Metamagic Extend here and/or a Pearl of Power (1st), mostly because that's what we did. :smallsmile:

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:42 AM

Part Two: The Blackfens and Rhest

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/64/217578846_43c5efea8f.jpg?v=0

"That one burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp!"

The Roadblock/s
For PbP campaigns I’d recommend just having one roadblock on the Rhest Trail rather than dragging the characters through the second one as well. Tabletop campaigns might also warrant the omission of the second roadblock unless you really want to slow the characters down by a day or so. The issue with the roadblock is that there's nothing that really triggers the party to trudge west from the first roadblock to the second. The plot crumb that brings the party to Rhest only speaks of a single roadblock on the Rhest Trail, not a second roadblock over on the far side of the lake.

Indeed the second roadblock is a bit illogical: it's placed on the Old North Road, but any reinforcements coming from that direction have to follow the Dawn Way and fight the entire Red Hand to get to Brindol. So: skip it. Just remember to give the PCs 2 VP for breaking the one blockade so they aren't disadvantaged by the omission. Alternatively, stick a plot crumb in the roadblock in the way of a convenient map showing the location of the second roadblock and a dodgy trail through the swamps to reach it (thus setting off the greenspawn razorfiends somewhere down that road), but you'd still have to come up with an answer for why the second roadblock exists at all.

Some campaign journals recommend using Skullcrusher Ogres (MM 3) in place of the regular ogres at the blockade to turn it into a more challenging match. I heartily agree. This is a roadblock to stop armed troops coming down it, it deserves a pair of the most elite ogres in the Hand. (Indeed - Skullcrusher Ogre replacements across the board in RHOD might well be to your liking, and not the party's :smallamused: ).

The Razorfiend Encounter
For my campaign I upgraded this to two razorfiends and upgunned the monsters themselves by about 2 HD each. I also had the encounter happen in the ruined manor where the small group of treasures is found. I upped the horror aspect of the encounter by having the PCs stay in the ruined manor to camp for the night, and allowed them to discover the encounter’s treasures ahead of the actual fight. Night attacks, of course, adding illumination issues to everything else.

I managed to get the drop on the PCs, and critical hits meant I killed one PC outright and sent the other within 1 hitpoint of death. Even with those advantages, the ugly little buggers didn’t last more than two rounds; Glitterdust appears to be their weak spot, unfortunately.

Greenspawn razorfiends out of the box with surprise against unoptimised parties are dangerous until the party gets its bearings. The threat they pose should be driven home to the party: if one greenspawn razorfiend can maul a party of level 6 adventurers, how much damage is a full platoon of the little buggers going to do to the city of Brindol?

Expeditious Dodge, Elusive Target, and Bounding Assault are all worth consideration on them.

And for awesome, here's a lovely Wizard's Mansion that someone built for their party...

Well, I designed the Wizard's Mansion to not only be an interesting and lively encounter, but also to be a didactic encounter; I wanted to force my PC's to start responding to threats. Because every single time they find something they don't understand the capabilities of, they end up running around like headless chickens and get wiped.

So, I'm endeavouring to make them do a few things; I want them to, once they realise they're under attack by the Razorfiend, fight it; but not just fight it, fight it smart.

When they, walking through the Marsh, encounter the Wizard's Mansion (they are aware of it, since they'd been sent into the Marsh to try to gain the Wizard's aid against the Red Hand), I described it as being very eccentric; it was painted bright blue and it looked, for lack of a better word, like it had melted slightly. The dimensions of the House didn't look right, and bits were bulging out; it didn't seem like the structure should be able to support itself. It was all twisted up and was covered in protrusions. When they walked up to the door, the doorknob opened its eyes and talked to them, telling them that "The Master is out, but he will surely be back soon". It was a pre-recorded message, as was all that the doorknob was able to say.

The inside of the house was likewise peculiar and esoteric. Unseen Servants, marked with blue bow-ties, floated through the air cleaning things. Two comfortable couches sat across the room from each other, one next to a Bookcase and the other next to a sea-chest. The bookcase couch also had two wooden stools next to it. Across one wall was a long table, with a stack of clean plates on one end, a box of cutlery in the middle and three empty tureens where food would be placed on the end. There was a glass with two flowers in it, also on the table. Finally, on the floor was a clearly visible Trapdoor. When opened, it was revealed that it opened to... floor.

Inside the sea-chest was an Assassin Vine. Its the sort of thing I'd expect a Wizard to keep in his chest of drawers.

The room was 10ft from floor to ceiling.

The second floor was a long corridor. You could enter a room to the left of the corridor which contained a very deep swimming pool. At the far end of the corridor was a ladder, leading upwards.

If you were to jump into the pool and swim down, you would realise that the dimensions of the pool were impossible compared to the dimensions of this floor; it goes down 30ft. You can easily push through the bottom of the pool... which allows you to pop up where the Trapdoor is on the first floor. There is also a highly visible hole in the floor of the corridor, which would allow someone to jump down to a spot in front of the wooden stools back on floor one.

This floor was 30ft from floor to ceiling.

The third floor was where the Wizard's bedroom was, and a separate area contained a Gelatinous Cube held captive in a glass container (it had a few hamster skeletons floating inside of it). Next to it was a black space that would magically remove any material tossed into it.

Like the previous floor, there was a hole that a character could jump down, which would allow them to get into the pool.

This floor was 60ft from floor to ceiling.

Finally, there was an open-topped study at the top of the tower that could only be accessed by creatures with the capacity to fly, since the house-side entrance required a character to get up 60ft with no handholds, and the outside side entrance is 120ft up. The effects of the weather were staved off by a magical barrier which covered the top of the tower.

I designed the House with these four levels to set up a fairly simple principle; each level you go up, makes the fight against the Razorfiend easier.

The Ground Floor was fairly boxy, and the whole place is really clumped and covered in furniture, obscuring charge vectors. It also has two entrances that weren't easily guarded against; a hole in the roof that the Razorfiend can attack down from (which it did to open the combat, insta-gibbing a friendly NPC) and the one-way trapdoor that you can magically get to from the pool. Furthermore, The Razorfiend is fast enough and can jump well enough to dart down from the stairs, hit someone close by, and the retreat back up the stairs.

Staying down there puts the party in a killing box. They can't get out through the door; it has locked itself, telling the party that all doors are locked past sundown. Bashing the door down is all but impossible, it being Magically Treated Reinforced Iron Walls (Break DC60, HP360, Hardness 20, Energy Resistance (All) 30), so they're forced to stay in the Wizard's pad and deal with their problem.

If they go up a floor, they suddenly can't be attacked unaware as easily. It can't get at them from the roof (too far away) and it can't attack from the trapdoor.

They go up to floor three? The Razorfiend is going to get ruined. It can't attack from the walls or ceiling, it doesn't have the AC to engage in a protracted fight. They get it up there, and keep it up there, and the players win.

Rainbow Six approaches to Rhest
Frontal assaults on Rhest seem to be where most RHOD TPKs happen. The monsters aren’t anything to sniff at taken on at once, particularly if you remember there’s still another 6 hobgoblins in the belltower. (And if you really want to be a bastard, have the hobgoblins let out the caged razorfiend when things get desperate).

The authors don’t comprehensively brief DMs about handling the underwater approach to Rhest -- curiously, since it's a satisfying and stealthy way to complete this section of the campaign. You’d think savvy parties will consider it: Water Breathing lasts about ten times as long as Water Walking and the RHOD text all but says it’s a guaranteed quiet approach. More ways of entry are more choices, and more choices for the party are good. Pathfinding underwater probably comes down to Survival checks; it's hard to say whether random checks to see if a partymember trips on a fish add much to the experience, but random encounters with giant crocodiles might add some sauce to the experience.

Anyway, Water Breathing combined with casting Silence on someone allows the PCs to get the drop on the occupants of the bell tower at the very least, thus preventing an alarm from being raised at the town hall. If you're into TPKs, you'll need a way of circumventing this. :smallwink:

It’s worth fiating that the ruined town hall has an open entrance into the waterlogged bottom level: the former front door, now well below the waterline. It’s not sealed up because dragons with only one way out of their lairs are usually dead dragons, and anyway, Reggie does have a swim speed. (Also provides an opportunity to cue up the "Jaws" theme on the media player if the party decides to enter underwater before checking if Reggie's gone out). And more entrances mean more player choices, which is good.

Similar comments apply to the bell tower: while the bell tower has wooden platforms running around it, its submerged floor very likely has a doorway whose wood has rotted away. Getting the characters onto the tower's second floor (i.e. at water level) might be an interesting exercise since any wooden (or indeed metal) stairwells would have decayed away in the previous few centuries.

Restatting Saarvith
Saarvith in his original Ranger 7 form is rather unexciting, like most ranged attackers, especially given he’s set up to fight from dragonback.

So, a couple of suggested builds--

Scout 6/Ranger 2. This build adds one level to Saarvith and abandons Saarvith being mounted on a dragon, making him an independent combatant. To make this work, apply the feats Swift Hunter, Shot on the Run, Improved Skirmish, and Expeditious Dodge (you’ll probably need a flaw or trait to make this work.) In terms of equipment, give him a couple of potions of Fly and a Ring of Entropic Deflection. Saarvith under this build starts off on dragonback, but then jumps off and starts skirmishing from the air, diving in, shooting, and then retreating so melee types can’t hit him and ranged types have immense difficulty doing so. Dispel Magic is obviously the Achilles Heel here, which is why he’s got more than one Fly potion on him. This build focuses on damage on one attack per round more than spamming attacks as such. Just to give you a sense of what his AC and damage will be like--

AC: 10 + 6 [Mithral Chain Shirt+2] + 5 [Dex bonus] = 21
(NB: When skirmishing and moved at least 10 feet, AC 23 and 20% concealment chance from Ring of Entropic Deflection)
(NBB: When skirmishing and moved at least 20 feet, AC 25 and 20% concealment chance from Ring of Entropic Deflection)
(NBBB: When skirmishing and moved at least 40 feet, AC 27 and 20% concealment chance from Ring of Entropic Deflection)
Touch AC: 15
Flat-Footed AC: 20 (Uncanny Dodge)

Damage: Longbow +1: 1d6+1/19-20
If shot taken at less than 30 feet of range: 1d6+2/19-20
If moved at least 10 feet during the round: 1d6+1/19-20 +2d6 (Skirmish damage).
If moved at least 10 feet during the round and shot at less than 30 feet: 1d6+2/19-20 +2d6 (Skirmish damage)
If moved at least 20 feet during the round and shot at less than 30 feet: 1d6+2/19-20 +4d6 (Skirmish damage)
NB: 10 Elf bane arrows: Versus elves, add +2 to attack rolls and a further +2d6 to damage.
NBB: If elf is the target, add a further +4 to damage (favored enemy 1)
NBBB: If human is the target, add a further +2 to damage (favored enemy 2)

If Saarvith gets the opportunity to get into the air and keeps moving, he actually makes ranged attacks look credible, especially against elves with (noncritical) damage of 1d6+2 +4d6 skirmish +4 +2d6 (Elf bane arrows) = 7d6+6 per shot if he gets closer than 30 feet and then swoops back out the same round. Against humans, his maximum damage is 5d6+2, which is still respectable. On top of that, if he’s taken that shot and kept moving, you’re unlikely to hit him in melee with an AC of 27 and 20% concealment chance as well to get over.

Ranger 6/Fighter 2. This build focuses on the mounted-on-a-dragon aspect of Saarvith’s character, and assumes Regiarix is in the air for strafing runs; if Saarvith is on the ground, he’s screwed. The basic mechanic is to full attack while Regiarix does the moving for him. By level 8, Saarvith has Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, and Improved Mounted Archery from character feats, Rapid Shot and Manyshot from the ranger’s Combat Style, and Point Blank Shot via trading off his spellcasting ability through the ACF Champion of the Wild from Complete Champion. His two fighter bonus feats should be spent on any two of the following three feats: Underfoot Combat, Woodland Archer, or Improved Rapid Shot.

Underfoot Combat works via low-fat cheese: Saarvith is Small, and while riding Regiarix is occupying the same space as a creature two size categories larger than him (assuming you upgrade Reggie from Medium to Large). By RAW, Saarvith gets the bonus of soft cover, an untyped +4 to AC. Alternatively, Expeditious Dodge gives him +2 AC while Regiarix is moving. Of Improved Rapid Shot and Woodland Archer I tend to prefer the former since it basically gives you more attacks for no penalty, which given you’ll be full attacking is strictly superior to a feat that only improves your chances of hitting following a miss against an opponent.

Lastly, max out his Ride skill and trade off his silly eagle companion for the ACF Distracting Shot, which allows your allies to treat a struck opponent as flanked – an indirect buff for the ogres on the ground, and gold given how tight the quarters are around the town hall’s perimeter. This is the reverse to the ‘Swift Hunter’ build above: it spams attacks in the hope of multiple hits via full attacks.

Mystic Ranger 8. (Dragon #336, p. 105) -- Because caster levels are king and Saarvith shouldn't really be engaging in melee anyway. This changes his focus to a support caster and sometime archer. This build has access to fourth-level ranger spells, which includes Summon Nature's Ally IV (Giant Crocodile, Huge Shark, anybody?), Swamp Stride, along with other cool stuff like Shadow Arrow or indeed Arrowsplit.

Other suggestions:

Give Saarvith his own mount, so he's not being a liability to the dragon.
Make Saarvith a Druid, mainly so his animal companion can be a mount.
Houserule Ranger to give a full Druid animal companion, same reason.
Have Saarvith take Wild Cohort, same reason.
Targetteer from Dragon 310, for easy DEX to damage.
Rune Magic from FRCS: give Saarvith runes of True Strike and Hunter’s Mercy, and make sure his arrowheads are made of Kaorti Resin.

Restatting Red Hand operatives

Nurklenak: Nurklenak only needs minor tweaking. I gave him Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Shadow Weave Magic (FRCS), and Sounds of Silence (Complete Scoundrel) to make him a bit more interesting, but he’s pretty weak and should be running support in any event. If you want a total reboot of the character, running a Beguiler with one level in Mindbender is a very strong combination.

Korkulan: As with hobgoblin patrol leaders, he works better using Tome of Battle. I rebuilt him into a Warblade 5, going for a hobgoblin samurai feel with EWP in katana and the following feats and maneuvers:

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana - bastard sword), Adaptive Style, Weapon Focus (Katana), Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind): +1 to damage with katana (If using Diamond Mind maneuver)

Maneuvers:
Iron Heart Surge -- shrug off any effect with a duration of 1 round or more.
Emerald Razor – melee attack becomes touch attack
Wall of Blades – substitute attack roll for AC
Steel Wind – attack two opponents you threaten.
Moment of Perfect Mind - Concentration check in place of single Will save.
Sapphire Nightmare Blade - Concentration check vs. a creature's AC. If succeeds, creature is flatfooted vs. attack, and you deal +1d6 damage.

Stances:
Absolute Steel Stance (Iron Heart 2): get +10 enhancement bonus to speed. If move 10 feet in a round, get a +2 dodge bonus to AC until start of next turn.
Punishing Stance (Iron Heart 1) -- +1d6 to damage, but at -2 to AC.

Restatting Regiarix
It’s not clear what Reggie’s intended role in battle is. He’s not a caster, he’s weak at melee, and his breath attack isn’t great. Something as mundane as a Tanglefoot Bag is enough to bring him down even at Large size. You should have little hesitation in upgrading him by one age category to Young Adult so he picks up Large size, Frightful Presence out to 120 feet, Spell Resistance 17, a caster level, and one more feat.

Really, Reggie only makes substantial contributions to combat if he's in the air. His underwater lair provides some potential challenges for the players -- a swimming dragon might be fun if the party isn't pimped up with Freedom of Movement -- but the town hall is a killing jar for him. That leaves us with aerial combat, which synergises with Saarvith’s intended purpose, i.e. riding Regiarix.

Swap out Improved Critical, Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack, and Hover. Take Recover Breath, Enlarge Breath, Flyby Attack, Flyby Breath (from the Dragonlance CS). Use the feat from increasing age category to take Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. (As a dragon, Reggie qualifies automatically for dragonblood feats, per RoTD).

With Enlarge Breath, Regiarix’s Young Adult breath weapon is a 120 foot line. This is also the range of his Frightful Presence. Flyby Breath allows you to breathe as a free action so long as you don’t do anything else but move this turn. Entangling Exhalation has the breath weapon do half damage but entangles (NO SAVE) anyone caught in its area of effect for 1d4 rounds. Circle the town hall at a distance like an AC-130 gunship and entangle PCs for Saarvith to shoot them. If the party’s out on the walkways these are very nice options to have.

For magic, Wings of Cover and Scintillating Scales.

The Reactory Phylactery*
The phylactery, believe it or not, is a potential problem for a DM.

First: a party with anybody with a lawful and/or good disposition will be seriously tempted to destroy the phylactery on discovering it, if not any time before they confront the Ghostlord. Alternatively, the party might simply decide to hang onto the phylactery without either returning it or destroying it.

Second: a lich by RAW can't be permanently killed without destroying its phylactery, but nothing says a lich knows its phylactery has been destroyed, or anything about who destroyed it. RHOD's assurances that the destroyer of the phylactery will "earn the Ghostlord's undying enmity" ignore that identifying said destroyer relies entirely on the Red Hand -- since blighters don't get scrying as a spell.

So it's worth shoehorning in the following:
(1) The box containing the Ghostlord's phylactery is affected by a permanent spell of Obscure Object. It’s on the bard and cleric lists and thus fits nicely with Ulwai being involved in the initial theft and the spell then made permanent by Azarr Kul later.
(2) The Ghostlord can cast scrying, whether by refitting him as a druid or giving some sort of custom magic item - the Pool of Rebirth could double as a limited-use scrying pool for this purpose, perhaps.
(3) The Ghostlord senses when his phylactery is destroyed (it being a part of him). The PCs should be told so if they identify the necklace as a phylactery -- so they have an inkling of the consequences upfront of destroying it then and there.

That said, some thoughts on possible developments:

If the party just keeps the phylactery:
In this scenario, the Ghostlord is fanatical about scrying on "the individual who has my phylactery." (This is possible since scrying allows for no knowledge of the subject.) Most of the time these attempts fail since Saarvith, Ulwai, or Regiarix don't "have" his phylactery, or alternatively Obscure Object makes the attempt autofail since the spell can't detect the phylactery that creates the connection. But once the party has it, the spell reveals that fact. From there he starts scrying extensively on the party. (Hopefully if your party isn't a bunch of paranoids who religiously cast Detect Scrying every morning.)

Let's say the party decides not to return the phylactery at all. In this scenario, one possibility is to have the Ghostlord contact the party via messenger, Sending, unsettling dream, whatever. He tells them where he is. In return for his phylactery, he offers the location of Azarr Kul, the Red Hand’s leader (having discovered this from scrying on Ulwai relentlessly). The players may well take this up since they gain a chance to cut off the head of the snake. The Ghostlord ending his involvement with the Red Hand is a given since the only hold Ulwai had on him was the phylactery.

It's the three things the Ghostlord doesn't say that are important:
First, he doesn't tell the players that Ulwai’s troops are at the stone lion.
Second, he doesn't tell Ulwai’s troops that the party's on its way.
Third, he never tells the party the password to enter the Fane of Tiamat.

It sets up the party to expect undead, run into hobgoblins, and spend some of its strength smashing Ulwai and Varanthian. You then bring out the Ghostlord and all his undead allies, and demand the phylactery's return (whilst still keeping his bargain). If the party fights and wins, well, as the writers say, "You might not be running the adventure for the right levels". For the Ghostlord, this is a win-win: best case scenario, he gets his phylactery back and the party moves on to futilely seek out Azarr Kul. Worst case scenario, he has to fight a weakened party of PCs he knows have his phylactery, and who have already removed the Red Hand's forces from his home.

If your players are still reluctant to take the bait, Plan C: the Red Hand comes looking for the phylactery, with Ulwai and/or Varanthian leading the effort to recover it. This has a nice synergy with the "Marked for Death" encounter giving the Red Hand a reason to pursue the PCs other than "Those Damn Kids Are Ruining Our Plans" -- the Red Hand has to recover the phylactery, or the Ghostlord will withdraw his support. It also gives the players the chance to earn a little VP from killing or neutralising Ulwai and/or Varanthian if they don't go after them at the stone lion.

If the party just destroys the phylactery:
Here, one of two options.

Option one, the Ghostlord feels the pain of his phylactery being destroyed and scries on "the individual who destroyed my phylactery". Having identified them as allies of his ancient enemies, the people of Elsir Vale, the Ghostlord becomes a voluntary ally of the Red Hand and adds his troops to the assault on Brindol. From the mechanical point of view, this will mean the party loses 5 VP, faces a fourth wave in the "Streets of Blood" encounter, and faces the Ghostlord as well as Kharn in the final encounter. However, it also means Ulwai is in that battle as well, and Varanthian is available to the Red Hand -- possibly even met during the Battle of Brindol.

Option two, the Ghostlord doesn't feel the pain of the phylactery's destruction and the Red Hand eventually realises the hatchery at Rhest has been destroyed and the phylactery is gone. In this scenario, Ulwai bluffs the Ghostlord that they've still got the phylactery. The result, again, is the presence of more troops at Brindol as with option one, with the chance that if the party figures out Ulwai is bluffing the Ghostlord and tells him so, the Ghostlord might go nuclear against everyone at Brindol -- which might make for an interesting encounter.

* This is a terrible pun, and I am always taking requests for a better tag description :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:43 AM

Part Three: The Thornwaste and the Ghostlord's Lair

https://images2.imgbox.com/bf/ab/71vhTliJ_o.jpg

First one to say "Thundercats Ho" gets a critical hit to the face.

Overall map and terrain fixes
I recommend using the Ghostlord's Lair map from RHOD on a different scale. Rather than every square representing a 5 x 5 foot area, rejig so each square represents a 10 x 10 area (4 squares to every one drawn on the map.)

There are two reasons for doing this:
1. Detail. Varanthian can't fit through doorways into her own lair; she's a Huge combatant and takes up a 3x3 space, when the opening of her den is only 10 feet across. Maybe she needs to cut back on the Cheerios.

2. Tactics, especially for large parties. A group of players 6+ in size will look faintly hilarious trying to squeeze into the small-sized rooms. More space also mitigates some of the Ghostlord's close-quarters problems if it comes to a fight. It also allows you to have Varanthian come to Ulwai's rescue up the secret passageway when the party thinks it's got that fight won.

I also recommend recasting the stone lion from being a statue on a ridge to being masterfully carved from the ridge. Doing so makes it more plausibly able to be the location of an evil node (see the spoiler'd section on rebuilding the Ghostlord to be truly effective for more details on this.)

Note the stone lion is subject to the 15-minute adventuring day like almost no other lair in the adventure. A retreat from Vraath Keep might draw a hobgoblin patrol. A retreat from Rhest will draw a visit from Regiarix. Here, the PCs can comfortably retreat to their camp a good half mile away from the statue without consequence. There are no defined patrols from the Ghostlord, and not enough Hand troops to plausibly send out patrols. There's only the wandering monster chance.

The lair's structure also allows the party to control the flow of opponents. At Rhest the players have to cast Water Breathing and Silence to avoid taking on the whole place at once. Here, the designers leave Varanthian alone in a killing jar, and hold Ulwai’s forces passively in their positions. As designed, Varanthian's purpose is to basically be a burglar alarm, which is faintly ridiculous given she's meant to be the "fifth dragon" of the adventure.

Note that even if the map’s scaled up so every square represents a 10 x 10 area, a party can easily sprint from the lion's mouth down to Ulwai's area without sufficient time for the hobgoblins to prepare for them coming. There's not a trap in the place. I'd make recon harder (Hide from Undead is cleric 1; it has a decent chance of succeeding against the ghost dire lions) and drop caltrops at least just inside the first door into the lion's mouth (the hobgoblin monks' purpose being to tell legit visitors that they're there) and have the monks hurl a thunderstone at a wall to set off a warning.

With a well-optimised party, consider sending Varanthian and Ulwai's forces at the party at once, albeit delaying one group or the other by a round or two.

Rescuing the Ghostlord from Orcus On His Throne (and having to fight at all)
Genre savvy players may ask: if the Ghostlord’s that powerful and hates Elsir Vale, why hasn’t he trashed the place himself by now? Why hasn’t he sought revenge? (This is particularly so if the party takes him on and loses -- some people will reason that he has to have so many levels on him that he makes Azarr Kul look like a rank amateur.)

The other question players may ask: what are his stats, and can we kick his butt? By the time the party hits the Ghostlord’s lair, most things not human will have been trying to kill them, which doesn't predispose them towards talking rather than fighting. And that's before you consider the likely response of a cleric or paladin with the word "Good" in his alignment to the idea of allowing a scion of Ultimate Undead Evil keep on existing when you've got him by the phylacteries.

The Ghostlord’s not meant to be a combat encounter; how do you get the players to understand that?

The nutcase: Use an archetype other than Standard Dark Lord. Play him as a sort of (evil) Dr. Jekyll/(eviller) Mr Hyde: solitary, tends to speak to spirits, doesn’t like to take risks; like Jekyll, he's become enamoured of his own powers and works in secret to master them.

This fits the Ghostlord's behaviour: cooped up in his stone lion lair and not overly concerned with the outside world. Think mildly crazy evil hermit, not Darth Vader. Don’t run the bold, imperious aggressor the RHOD book describes – have him enter the room talking to himself, mumbling threats, but eyes blazing with anger all the while. Have him talk to people or even lion spirits that aren’t visible. In short: steal lines from Gollum rather than Sauron, and the Ghostlord will seem a lot more plausible. And hopefully more dangerous.

As Saph puts it: “For roleplaying him, I went for a combination of Emperor Palpatine and Gollum. Ancient, very powerful, psychotically obsessed with his phylactery, and insane (but note that insane doesn't mean stupid). I had him talk a lot, but he'd only respond to the PCs when they said something that matched up with his skewed worldview - otherwise he'd just ramble to himself about revenge and torture and killing, before snapping suddenly back into focus and demanding why the PCs were there.

I also told the PCs at the beginning of the encounter with him that everything they said would be assumed to be in character unless specified otherwise. The idea is to keep it short and tense. Don't have the Ghostlord stick around and chat while the players talk OOC: it ruins the mood. The PCs should feel that they need to make a deal fast before the Ghostlord decides to kill first and ask questions later.”

The good guy: Add a plot twist by making the Ghostlord a reformed lich with a Lawful Neutral alignment.

Here, Zarl has suffered … and repented. He enjoyed being a lich at first, creating some of the undead that now inhabit the stone lion -- but came to regret it as the centuries passed and he realised what he'd lost, and what he'd done. The stone lion statue has become his fortress to secure and defend one thing: the Heart of the Lion, which Zarl knows will be used for great evil if it's removed.

Zarl here is the Heart of the Lion's guardian; it is his self-imposed atonement for his dark deeds. The undead he commands protect the artifact, not himself as such. He's become fairly addled (or has become romantically resolute): he will not allow evil clerics near the artifact, but neither will he allow a good or neutral cleric to attempt destroying it, because he is still serving his penitence. The party offering to destroy him also doesn't appeal since it would end his watch over the artifact prematurely. This might prevent a good-aligned party fighting him, since his purposes are noble and he is, in fact, a slave to the Red Hand by creating undead for them, not even a semi-willing participant.

Running the Ghostlord "as-is"
Everything in this section assumes you've got a party of players who aren't very experienced or have at least one caster who's very experienced at dealing with, well, other casters.

Blighters are a crap prestige class, appropriately described as being to druids what blackguards are to paladins (i.e. nowhere near strong enough to justify taking the PrC even for the evulz.) The PrC takes some of the druid's best battle strategies (wading into melee as a dinosaur with a dinosaur buddy while summoning Greenbound dinosaurs) and gives you nothing back in return (seriously, an undead-themed druid who can't control undead until he can cast 6th level spells? What the hell?)

To top it off, the authors impose the lich template on this crappy PrC and thereby render it seriously vulnerable to clerics or anyone with the Use Magic Device skill.

Again, your best way of resolving the Ghostlord encounter, as Bruce Lee said, is to fight and win widdout fighting. Even so, prudence demands you assume the worst. A party comprised of halfway optimised characters (or halfway experienced players) is likely to trash the "book" Ghostlord by force of the action economy and the closed quarters of the lair. On a straw poll of campaigns I've seen here or read, most parties seem to wind up fighting the Ghostlord. So. How to fight?

You can, of course, rebuild the Ghostlord so he’s a thoroughly optimized (and thus deadly) opponent. See the next spoiler'd section on that. On the other hand, if you do so, he arguably wouldn’t be the Ghostlord, and his monastic existence requires even more suspension of disbelief.

So let's look at our problems. He’s outnumbered; he's at close quarters; he’ll be facing a buffed party; and he's vulnerable to positive energy. We need some options to mitigate those weaknesses.

Prepare the ground. One option is an Unhallow spell, keyed to a Dispel Magic effect targeting any nonevil characters. This allows the Horde agents to still be hanging around inside the stone lion. The spell covers all the rooms of the Ghostlord’s quarters if cast at the foot of the undead lion statue in the central hall (though if you change the scale of the dungeon, the spell's area of effect will be halved, too). Blighters have access to this spell at the Ghostlord’s "book" level. It even gives the Ghostlord a couple of mild buffs since it counts as a Protection from Good, too. Players can’t dispel the Unhallow effect, and probably won't have their own Hallow spell to neutralize it, either.

On the other hand, an Unhallow'ed Dispel Magic only affects a character once when they enter the Unhallow field, and once again when they leave and re-enter. Thus it'll hopefully take one buff off per character, but that's it. A solution is to have adjacent Unhallow fields all over the complex -- i.e. the characters leave one Unhallow field and then hit another, triggering another Dispel Magic effect.

A more brutal tactic is to layer the Ghostlord's intended battleground -- or indeed his entire complex -- with Forbiddance (a Blighter 5 spell). Odds are on the party's going to have a different alignment to him, and thus a minimum of 3d6 damage on entry to the spell's area. You can't have overlapping Forbiddance effects, but that doesn't stop you casting new Forbiddance effects five feet forward of the previous one, since the new Forbiddance effect stops at the boundary of the old one. You stand back behind four Forbiddance fields and watch as the party's melee'ers take 12-36d6 of untyped damage as they charge in to engage. And since Forbiddance prevents teleportation effects, scry-and-die and some Batman mage tactics like abrupt jaunt are prevented as well.

Push back the steel. For all their suckitude, blighters get Antilife Shell as a 5th level spell. RHOD’s text deems the Ghostlord’s level 5 spell as already cast for the day, but he’s been screwed over once by the Red Hand already and could plausibly have this available to cast before investigating who's messing with his lair. Cast this spell before the Ghostlord runs into the PCs and their melee’rs can’t touch him.

Choose the battleground. Don't fight the party in the small chamber called the Ghostlord's last redoubt. A 15 x 15 room with no cover and no allies is a killing jar. It's also a bit anticlimactic. Fight the party in the main central chamber -- the one that contains the six bonedrinkers. These little buggers get Pounce, remember, even if they're most likely to be one-shot kills. And they're undead, so they're not affected by the Ghostlord's Antilife Shell.

Don't fight alone. Put one or more ghost dire lions in the same room as the Ghostlord. He's a sort-of-wacky druid, he deserves an animal companion. And this animal companion, if you read the text, reappears at its "old haunt" after it's been destroyed on a successful level check. That "old haunt", for a freshly-created ghost dire lion, would be right above the yellow pool in that chamber.

Substitute three of his feats: Dodge, Mobility, and Natural Spell. (Mobility in particular is a necessary fix, since it requires Dex 13 and the Ghostlord as written only has Dex 12.) You lose a negligible 1 AC from Dodge, but he’ll be fighting under Antilife Shell (fingers crossed). Natural Spell goes even though it's 90% of a druid's tricks because, well, if he has to go to Undead Wild Shape he's screwed anyway. We're changing his focus from melee to blasting.

Take Fell Drain, Spell Focus (Evocation), and Metamagic School Focus (Evocation). Three of your prepared evocation spells -- Produce Flame, maybe Flame Strike if you get a second 5th level spell slot -- now drain levels off the PCs at half the metamagic cost. Fell Drain turns save-or-lose-more-hitpoints into save-and-suck-anyway, and at range, which means he doesn’t have to go to melee and break the Antilife Shell. And as a bonus, it's thematically appropriate, given the fluff on how the Ghostlord makes undead.

Very important note: the authors of RHOD (unwittingly?) hand the party on a silver platter the one weapon that can just about kill him. In short: the Staff of Life.

Oh, yes it can. It casts Heal, remember? And the Ghostlord is undead. If you're going in with a "minimal changes" approach to this battle, you have to find a way to remove the Staff from the equation. Either you do this via removing its Heal functions when giving it to the party, having an NPC hold onto it, putting the Ghostlord in a situation where he can't be touched with it, make sure he’s got Life Ward up, or just crossing your fingers and praying nobody in the party remembers positive energy damages undead.

The first step in combat, and the only unknown element, will be neutralising anyone who’s got Dispel Magic memorized. The rest of the fight becomes a beating down by your undead allies, followed by touch, paralyse, rinse, repeat when the Antilife Shell finally collapses. (Of course, if someone in the party’s got Iron Heart Surge, you could have some problems, but then, that’s another issue entirely.)

Blighters also have access to Stinking Cloud as a spell, which is your primary denial-of-service on spellcasters. It’s most effective in close quarters like the Ghostlord's lair and hobble spellcasters and melee types alike. It also doesn't work on undead, meaning your bonedrinkers and ghost lion/s can still get busy.

Rebuilding the Ghostlord to be truly effective

Making the Ghostlord effective in combat necessarily means fixing the blighter PrC altogether or finding some workaround for the PrC. Some suggestions for doing so:

(1) Druid build and tactics: Rebuild from a lich blighter to Evolved Undead, Lich Druid 12. Ditch Dodge, Mobility, Natural Spell, Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

By RAW nothing prevents an evil druid being undead -- but druids of all stripes despise undead, so this can get PHBs thrown at you. So change how the Ghostlord came to be undead. Rather than him wanting that result, run him as cursed by the nature gods because he killed a lion cub. Possibly this is was intended by James and Rich; it's never made explicit, but the carving of the dead lion cub in his lair is about as big a clue by four as you're going to get.

The Evolved Undead template is an excellent no-cost investment applicable at least once without being unbelievably cheesy. It's also one of the few templates that is explicitly said to stack with itself, and the "chance" comes up every hundred years or so -- Zarl is roughly four hundred years old or more. Confusion and Cloudkill (and indeed Haste for the summoning druid) as 1/day spell-like abilities projected from behind an Antilife Shell are likely to be devastating to an 8th or 9th level party, and remember, this encounter is meant to be a curbstomper if the party decides to fight.

From here, it's a matter of which course you choose: blasting, summoning, or melee (in that order of practicality).

Blasting:
This approach works best with node ab/use as described next section down. Otherwise, a lot of the damage comes from permanent spells already in place. In terms of feat selections: Fell Drain, Spell Focus (Evocation), Metamagic School Focus (Evocation), and anything that boosts ECL or flat CL.
Specific spell suggestions:
- Overlapping Forbiddance spells as indicated in the "as-is" section above, Fell Drained.
- Fire Seeds in the 'acorn bomb' variant placed around the battlefield, again, Fell Drained so you can quick-blast a level or two off the party before combat begins.
- Antilife Shell.
- Friendly Fire to defeat ranged attacks.
- Flame Strike, and indeed a selection of elemental damage spells, again, Fell Drained.
- Wall of Sand.
- Life Ward. No positive energy damage for you!

Here, your undead allies distract or hold the PCs back so you can just blast, blast, and blast again, draining levels as you go and keeping both melee and ranged attacks out. Freedom of Movement and Blindsight spells will mess with interdiction efforts like Wall of Sand, so have a couple of Dispel Magic iterations up and ready to go as well.

Summoning:
Note summoning is rendered pointless by one first level spell -- Protection from Evil, (and its big brother Magic Circle Against Evil.) The Ghostlord, being evil, gives summoned creatures the [evil] descriptor, and Protection from Evil keeps out evil summoned beings without a save. If you think the party's going to use this sort of tactic, consider rebuilding for flat-out blasting and debuffing since your only combat allies will be the undead.

Take Greenbound Summoning, Rapid Spell, and Ashbound Summoning if you can fit it in somehow. Augment Summoning would be nice, but Ashbound Summoning largely supersedes it for attack purposes -- and greenbound at these levels are already fairly tough.

Basic strategy is: Antilife Shell, Greenbound summon, Wall of Sand (it's Druid 5) or spam Stinking Cloud (via Wand), Friendly Fire to keep out the ranged attacks, and away you go. Adding in a Lesser Metamagic Rod (Quicken) and then memorising a Summon Nature's Ally III makes for a very nice opening round: you can't metamagic spontaneously-cast spells, and summoned creatures act on the same round as you. Thus: use the Rod to Quicken a Greenbound Summoned lion, or whatever. Since it's Greenbound, it can cast Wall of Thorns 1/day as a spell-like ability, at CL 5 (i.e. 5 x 10 foot cubes of thornwall). Your own spell (Wall of Sand) then hits the party at about the same time as the Greenbound's Wall of Thorns spell.
Ouch.
The party is now blinded, deafened, taking damage from thorns, and can't get loose of either wall without a full round action of trying and making checks against both spells. That's more than enough time to then buff, get your undead buddies into position, and summon more greenbound.

Remember quickening past Summon Nature's Ally III won't work because of the lesser nature of the metamagic rod. Also bear in mind that Summon Nature's Ally VI, which is spontaneously available at Druid 12, is hobbled: you can summon a Huge Elemental, but it's 32 feet tall and thus won't fit into the Ghostlord's chambers. You're stuck with 1d4+1-odd lesser creatures, although if they're all Greenbound it's probably just as good. Also consider Pearls of Power.

While the Druid Handbook recommends the dire wolf as the ideal Greenbound animal at these levels, in this instance it's more effective (and thematically appropriate) to summon greenbound lions instead. Why? More attacks. Lions get Pounce, which includes two rakes. They also get Improved Grab and a rake on the same round -- and the Greenbound template raises Grapple modifiers by +4, before you add in STR increases which cumulate on that. The greenbound template raises all damage dice for natural attacks to 1d8 (lions are Large) and also adds a slam attack. Your Greenbound lion can charge, bite, 2 x claw, 2 x rake, and slam in the one round; more strikes means more crit chances. And that's all before you add in a Haste from the Evolved Undead template...

Lastly, you've also got free use of Entangle from the Greenbound. By RAW it makes "surrounding plants" grow to entangle the opposition, and greenbound changes the creature type to plant.

Melee:
If you're really determined to go to melee combat with the Ghostlord as a druid, well, it's going to get more complicated. We’re assuming an Evolved Undead Lich Druid 12 chassis. But take the Druidic Avenger variant. The Ghostlord doesn't have an animal companion anyway, and his whole "rage against the heavens" thing fits nicely with the Rage feature of the class.

Natural Spell stays in this build. You're definitely going to want Rapid Spell and Greenbound Summoning. You'll be memorising several Summon Nature's Ally spells since Avengers can't cast spontaneously. (Not much of a loss: when raging you can't cast spells and can't use metamagic anyway.) You'll also need to add a Wilding Clasp to the Ghostlord's gear, too.

Your basic strategy will be to spam allies at the start of the fight with greenbound summoning to block the party from hitting you in the first round, Wild Shape to something puissant then buff and debuff using the Evolved Undead's spell-like abilities before switching on Rage and moving in to attack. When the party moves in to try and swarm you, you back off, come out of Rage and start blasting with direct damage spells.

As discussed, this build is badly vulnerable to touch attacks or cure spells, so your chosen Wild Shape when on the defensive needs Life Ward, high DEX, or at least a high touch AC. On the offensive, it needs Spring Attack and a good melee attack roll; as a lich, your paralysis attack is the most effective weapon you've got, but it only operates once per round, so unless you've got a Wild Shape that can smash a player into the ground in one pass, there is no point hanging around to make full attacks.

I don't propose to go through an analysis of the best Wild Shape to take for any given situation; the Druid Handbook (http://http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) does a sterling job at that. For defensive purposes, the Legendary Eagle with a touch AC of 21 jumps out at me since it's available at level 12. For offensive purposes, the Ironthorn doubles your paralysis attempts per round though it's not fast. Or indeed the Legendary Eagle itself since on offense your primary intent is to hit, paralyse and get the hell out of dodge.

(2) Nodezilla: If you have Champions of Ruin, Node Magic seriously augments the Ghostlord's effectiveness for less feats than the routes described above.

The stone lion (or the chamber in which the fight's going to happen) can be fiated as occupying the innermost layer of a Class 2 node or higher. With Node Spellcasting and Metanode Spell, your Fell Drain spells are cast out of their unaltered spell slots, as the node takes the increased spell level load that metamagic otherwise requires. You cast metamagic'd spells and don't have to use up your higher level slots. This is free metamagic.

(There's also Node Store -- it allows you to chuck two spells of any level you can store inside the node itself and draw on it in combat. Very useful stuff since a Druid 12 is short on Level 6 spells in particular.)

As if that weren't cool enough, nodes themselves also grant a number of spells equal to its class of that class's level or less. (e.g. a Class 4 node grants 4 spells of fourth level or lower.) The granted spells are "usually" tied by "theme", which in practice means you can chuck any spell of the node's class level or lower in there -- divine, arcane, you name it. These spells are added to the Ghostlord's spell list. Think about it, just with a class 2 node. Any two extra spells to the druid list of second level or lower: Glitterdust. Grease. Magic Missile. Blood Wind. Shield. Improvisation.

Taking this route obviously means changing from the feat combinations mentioned above for blasting/summoning, but being able to Fell Drain any of your damage-dealing spells at zero metamagic cost all day long is gold when you're fighting from a fixed position as the Ghostlord is. And these benefits scale exponentially the higher the class of the node.

The only drawback is that this will burn up 2 feats (Node Spellcasting and Metanode Spell). Odds are on you'll have to go to flaws to make this all work.

Some thoughts on metamagic feats:

Fell Drain. Thematic and effective. Best used on save-for-less-damage spells rather than save-for-no-damage.
Silent Spell. Silence effects are very pesky since you won't have much room to maneuver and the radius of the effect is big enough for a melee type to stand off outside your Antilife Shell and still deny you spellcasting.
Rapid Spell, if you haven't already got it, is extremely useful for summoning spells.
Sanctum Spell is a +1 DC to all spells. At the Ghostlord's character level the sanctum will be about 120 feet wide and high, which covers most of the stone lion's interior.
Heighten Spell might be handy, Empower Spell is not. Node Magic allows you to boost the ECL of a spell by up to the class of the node on a successful Spellcraft check, which obviates the need for Empower Spell.
Maximise Spell. +3 to spell level, in effect. Now consider putting the Ghostlord in the centre of a class 3 node, and making the Spellcraft check required to take a Flame Strike to its absolute maximum damage of 15d6. 90 damage against a level 8-9 party ought to impress someone. If nothing else, it's one hell of a way to end the encounter via self-immolation.
Chain Spell. Another +3 to spell level in effect. Now consider having the node grant you Shivering Touch.

(3) Fixing the blighter: Change Blighter casting to add levels of existing casting, re-open the original Druid casting, and add Blighter spells to the list. This at least preserves a blighter feel, although mechanically you could do much the same thing with a couple of extra levels of Druid. Under this variant, build as druid, again skipping melee options due to the fact that although the Ghostlord is no longer a purist blighter, he's still a purist undead.

(4) Evolved Undead Druid 5/Ur-Priest 7: Arguably the quickest and deadliest build for a straight out blasting cleric type, mostly because an Ur-Priest 7 has access to seventh level spells (albeit few unless you pump WIS). Under this build, the Ghostlord abandons nature entirely when he kills the lion cub, and from there takes the path of the Ur-Priest, denying all the gods. Obviously he's not even druidic anymore, but his effectiveness as a curbstomper increases and arguably Ur-Priest fits the Ghostlord's "abandon nature, become undead, go insane" shtick better than a blighter does. Note that Practiced Spellcaster is required for this build so the Ghostlord can build a phylactery at all, or Magic Knack if you're playing in Pathfinder.

Restatting Ulwai
The quick and dirty way to make Ulwai better is to give her another level in bard, change a couple of her spells, and don't use her unique bardic abilities. Why in the name of Gygax is any bard wandering around the landscape without Glitterdust, for crying out loud? (For that matter, how the hell is an effective 9th level bard still putting out only a +1 to Inspire Courage?) A single level of bard and picking Confusion makes her a dangerous spellcaster.

Fixing her more thoroughly requires turning her into a straight class bard and optimising with Dragonfire Inspiration or Inspire Courage in mind. Stormsinger is flavourful, but at these levels it comes down to a very modest caster level boost and a single-target Lightning Bolt, neither of which are terribly inspiring to a level 9 party.

James and Rich mentioned they built Ulwai this way for the coolness factor of "Wow, I didn't know a bard could do that" ... which is admirable, but if you're playing with a seasoned party, probably won't impress quite as much. This "fix" will attract the argument that "she's not Ulwai anymore" -- but the Stormsinger PrC still alllows you to optimise IC and have the Thunderstrike. Alternatively, you could preserve the lightning theme by taking the right feats to make her Dragonfire Inspiration electricity themed, which would still be more effective than Thunderstrike.

If you're determined to preserve the Stormsinger flavour and you're against an optimised, seasoned, or large party, I recommend shoehorning in the Doomspeak feat from Champions of Ruin, fiated as a swift action (the action required is generally presumed as a standard action since it consumes a bardic music use, but the feat is silent on it by RAW.) Ulwai thereby becomes a lot more effective at least against melee types who try to punch her in the face because Doomspeak reduces their ability to hit her and resist her spells.

That said, there’s an alternative, courtesy of Tiercel: take the "this bard is different" thing up to 11. Mistress of Shock and Awe.

1) Dump Inspire Courage. Instead, go with Dragon Magic's Inspire Awe (gosh, is this a draconic campaign? I think it is); PrCing out of bard keeps higher-level improvements to the ability from kicking in, but Inspire Awe’s DC still keys off her Perform check, as does her Thunderstrike ability.

2) Give her Intimidate by swapping out Diplomacy (as per PHB customization guidelines). No more Little Miss Nice Ulwai. Never Outnumbered skill trick, Fearsome armor and Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. If Ulwai ever gets surrounded, she fear-novas: maxed Intimidate against everyone within 10' as a move action then everyone saves vs DC: her Perform check; fear-stacking means anyone who fails both saves is cowering as long as she keeps singing. (Or a Harmonizing weapon she has does the job for her.) If she needs to be even more... metal... shall we say, give her a Pandemonic Silver weapon (Complete Warrior) with a Least Crystal of Return (MIC) to force even more fear checks (given that Ulwai can create wind effects, consider Quicken Spell Like Ability: gust of wind).

3) Give her one extra level of Stormsinger. Stormsinger 5 lets her bust out control winds at CL 13 (CL 15 if it's cold or there's a storm), which she can increase winds from zero to hurricane strength if you keep it chilly inside the stone lion, or if there ARE stormy conditions, hello tornado strength winds http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds , all in a 520' (or 600') radius. Abithriax's rampage in Brindol could be seriously upstaged by a flying Ulwai if she winds up there and goes into Living Tornado mode, tearing up the city and scattering defenders like tenpins.

Also taking Ulwai to Bard caster level 10 means that 4th-level Bard spells come online, like fear (if you want to play her fear-stacking to the hilt) or dimension door (what BBEG wouldn't want it for escape options?).

4) Replace Bardic Knowledge with Loresong (Dungeonscape) instead: +4 insight to saves as an immediate action 3/day. Yes please. (It's usable for more than just saves, but that's the obvious survivability play.) Also, it's both thematic and more survival for Ulwai if she is a Savage Bard (UA, SRD), giving her good Fort saves her first 5 levels.

Fix up her spells (glitterdust is too useful, charm monster means Ulwai always has bruiser minions—bonus points if they can Intimidate as well for more fear-stacking, improvisation is all-around good and can be used to crank up her Perform checks to boot) and her equipment (MIC's mithralmist shirt is handy and thematically appropriate, any self respecting bard should have some kind of cloak of charisma—especially with offensive bardsong uses—plus a circlet of persuasion, and any BBEG should have a vest of resistance in order to, you know, not die - not to mention Ulwai should be packing a Bat-Utility-Belt of scrolls and wands for her souped-up UMD checks).

In combat, Ulwai tosses down fear and/or hammers the battlefield with windstorms while her charmed minions clean house. Those resistant to these ploys get glittered, get confused, UMD-Bat-Utility-Belted, or simply thunderstruck.

Oh, and you know that whole "Ulwai is a masterful liar, especially with Glibness cast" thing on the RHOD text? Well, considering she doesn't actually have any ranks in Bluff, you can presume this as another fine example of a WOTC statblock that matches neither the fluff nor the rules. Trade out Knowledge (Nature) for this skill.

Lastly, if you go with Node Magic as set out regarding the Ghostlord above, don't forget that Ulwai, as an evil spellcaster within the radius of the outermost layer of the node, can access higher caster levels for her spells as per Champions of Ruin. (i.e. she has to make an INT check.)

Restatting Varanthian

Leaving Varanthian as a (half) behir
Overriding dragon/behir hatred by making Varanthian a half-fiend is cheesy, but more importantly, V has the same drawback all big solo D&D monsters do: a crippling deficit in the action economy. (Opinions do vary wildly: many campaigns I've seen have Varanthian responsible for at least one PC death or serious injury, but in my own PbP she got one grapple in and then got royally clowned in a fusillade of melee.)

Varanthian's 7d6 line breah weapon is weak, as is her spellcasting, being a few random single-target debuffs. Her flight speed is negligible. Even with 10 HD and Practiced Spellcaster, adding spellcasting is putting an airfoil on a bulldozer. It’s better to just ignore those features when considering improvements, and instead lean into her intended build as a grappler.

V’s most eyecatching attacks favour style over substance. Her iconic attack combination is "bite and swallow whole," but it takes more than one round to get through. And leaves her belly exposed to attack, quite literally.

Not so Grapple+Constrict+Rake. She has Power Attack and BAB +9. Improved Grab means AoOs don't block her grapples; with a grapple check of +27 most level 8-9 PCs will end up in her grasp. She can't rake on the same round as she bites and grapples, but this makes her Power Attack more effective -- because it doesn't penalise the initial attack. Attack at +17, Grapple at +27 and do 2d8+10 Constrict damage in the first round. Then, in the second round, use Power Attack and the grappled opponent – which has no DEX bonus to AC – wears 6 claw attacks at +8, each doing 1d8+14 damage. Get more than two hits from the six and you do more damage than swallowing would. And this assumes you take the full BAB penalty under Power Attack, which isn’t necessary.

It has drawbacks, sure. While grappling, V doesn't threaten squares and has no DEX bonus to AC. She therefore can't make AoOs and is open to sneak attack damage. More importantly, if the grappled opponent has Freedom of Movement or some teleportation ability, her damage-dealing ability is negated, at least for that person. Slow – cast on you – arguably prevents you from raking more than once.

Some changes are therefore recommended:

Get her Freedom of Movement
Increase CON to enhance survivability
Item of Dispel Magic

Alertness is a wasted feat. You could switch it out for Combat Reflexes, and then rely on Varanthian’s four AoOs from her 17 DEX and 10 foot Reach as a backup strategy to stuffing her face with adventurer hot dog.

Changing Varanthian to a dragon
The omission of a white dragon (or a fifth dragon of any kind) is a rather glaring one in RHOD, and it's not exactly clear why the designers did it, other than subverting player expectations. A dragon makes the encounter far more interesting. Some options:

Abyssal drake (Draco, CR: 9), and change the Alertness feat. I find the combo: Flyby attack + Powerfull Charge + Power Dive nice: 1d6+9+poison+3d6+2d6+9. The poison has a DC of 20, with 2d6 Con damage. Adding Power Attack gives you a bit of extra damage (max +10). Using this combo: attacking every other round with 6d6+28 damage +poison. I like this option because of the background of the beast (wyvern, demon & red dragon), and it also refers to otherworldly help the RHoD gets, which hits at the portal.
Draconic Creature/Half Dragon/etc. (Draco; CR varies). Take a creature and slap a template or something like that on it.
Another Dragon (various books; CR varies). As said. White Dragon, perhaps, or Fang Dragons, Blue Dragons, etc. One option: Young Adult Half-White Fang Dragon.
Velroc (DM, CR 12), a bit tougher, but the 'Magic Distortion Aura' gives a nice twist on the encounter. Also, the dragon is CN, so not really in line with Tiamat.

One small note: if the players miss Varanthian for some reason, don't forget her. She could make for a rather nice 'end of encounter' boss during the Streets of Blood in the Battle of Brindol itself. RHOD says she rejoins the Red Hand army proper rather than head back to the Fane, so though it isn’t explicit, she'd likely be present.

Restatting Red Hand operatives

The Monks: If you've got Tome of Battle, you should change these guys to the unarmed swordsage variant. (Let's leave aside this is a general comment which can be made about monks in general.)

If you don't have Tome of Battle, the builds could still stand improvement per the various guides on monk optimisation. Frankly, the monks in the lion's mouth could stand being turned into straight melee classes like fighters, since their primary purpose is merely to survive for a round while one of them sounds the alarm to Ulwai in the halls below. I'd focus a little more on tactics or items to slow the party down: tanglefoot bags, thunderstones to deafen and tell Ulwai that something's wrong, and so on.

Monks seriously challenging the party will need a lot of levels on them. Monk 4 ain't impressing level 8-9 players, no matter how many uber moves you pick up for them. Personally, I had Unarmed Swordsage 6s against a party of eight and they still were singularly unimpressive.

Bear in mind you can build unique individuals within the unarmed swordsage concept. Consider the monks in the stone lion's "mouth" part of the cave: wouldn't it be nice to build them towards mastering out throws from the Setting Sun discipline, and then start chucking PCs clean off the lion’s jaw (albeit this isn't likely to happen without serious upgrades and a relocation of the opposition to the lion's mouth itself.)

The Clerics: In theory they don't need major restatting. Clerics are nice right out of the box in D&D for a reason.

The problem is comparative levels. Level 3 hobgoblin clerics are mindblowingly undermatched against a level 8-9 party of PCs. They can't cast Mass versions of any spells; they're down to a couple of level one spells and maybe a second level spell before they're out of action. If your party sets off some sort of alarm and allows the Hand forces here time to prepare, they'd probably be more useful, but with kick in the door parties on Haste there's no time for that.

They have scrolls ... of Summon Monster III which on the text they're required to use to bring hellhounds in against the party. These creatures are underwhelming on the first encounter of the whole campaign; there’s no reason to think they’d be less so here. The clerics are also are useless in melee, comparatively speaking; their smite good feature merely gives them a slightly more spectacular means of failure (particularly against the neutrals of the party).

If you use the Blasphemous Incantation ACF from Exemplars of Evil, it gets a bit more interesting. A 30 foot range supernatural ability in place of Rebuke Undead is an acceptable change: these guys aren't meant to last past this fight anyway.

If you're minded to recast their spell selection then Incite and Inhibit from the Spell Compendium mess with the party's capacity to coordinate and manipulate the action economy. Close Wounds might give your NPCs one more round. Resurgence gives another chance at beating a save-or-suck. Hand of Divinity and Faith Healing work on any hobgoblins here since they're all worshipers of Tiamat.

Having said that, two clerics are probably pointless. They just don't cast anything strong enough to warrant both of them being there.

Replacing one cleric:
A Hobgoblin Warsoul (MM 5) with two SRD hobgoblin warriors makes for a much, much more interesting option: it decreases the (weak) divine casting capacity of the Hand forces, but gives the arcane casting capacity one hell of a boost. If you're not minded to add a couple of hobgoblin warriors, a Warsoul gives the useless monks a reason to live for a round or two (i.e. powering him up via Soul Tyrant.)

As for the Warsoul's spell selection and tactics: switch out one of his feats for Practiced Spellcaster; that raises him to CL 10. Go to town with debuffs -- Web-and-Fireball is a sniggerworthy scare for your players, and Dimension Door will be handy if you had a mind to get Ulwai out of there and make an escape. If you want to add more bastardry to the equation, see the Nodezilla section of the Ghostlord sections above: give the Warsoul Node Spellcasting and your Warsoul can now cast 13d6 Fireballs on a Spellcraft check.

Also bear in mind that if your Warsoul lasts more than a round, the RHOD tactics of trying to keep the door shut and whatnot are utterly unnecessary. Have the Warsoul Web the door and the monks stooge around or charge up and then perform as much speedbump duty as possible.

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:44 AM

Part Three-And-A-Half: Before the Battle of Brindol

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Who said resource management was boring?

The Mercenary Gold and/or Marked for Death missions
Depending on how your party fares against the timeline, you might be better served setting these later in the piece rather than earlier.

For PbP campaigns, you might consider fusing these two encounters together. Escorting the gold to the Hammerfist Holds, even on the back of giant owls, is going to take about a week there and back. Better still if you have the party escort the gold via caravan, since this makes the party sitting ducks for the assassination squad that might originally be tasked with getting the gold rather than getting the party.

In either event AslanCross recommends replacing the regular hobgoblins with Hobgoblin Duskblades (MM 5). The Barghests usually don't need a big upgrade, with teleportation and greater bull's strength they at least can partially keep up with the party at this stage.

The Hammerfist Holds
The Holds are one of the more inspiring, undeveloped sections of the campaign, and RHOD does leave open the possibility of building the Hammerfist Clan's home out to recruit the dwarves. That said, it's a tricky exercise mainly because - unless your party is well ahead on its timelines - getting the party to spend a substantial period of time out here might not be appealing. I heartily recommend playing up the dwarves - especially the Shining Axes - as hardcore fighters, laying it on thick by saying there's only 300 of them and having them all carrying round shields with a Lambda symbol on them. Other thing to be noted is that Clan Hammerfist has some meaty NPCs in context: their leaders are Cleric 7, Bard 8, Rogue 5, and Fighter 8, all levels in relatively short supply and all pretty valuable to a defense of Brindol, potentially.

Building out the Holds can be as thorough or as short as you like: a straight Diplomacy check and some fluff scenes might do enough to make your players feel like they've recruited a Bad@$$ Army and head on to other things.

For those of you who want to add a little more to it, though, I'd like to humbly present my own mini-build of the Holds and a small-ish 15 room dungeon built around the idea that Miha Serani the aranea has sisters, and their part in the conflict is to keep the dwarves out of the war by holding Othrek Hammerfist, the clan's leader, hostage in a ruined dwarven fort that the Hammerfists shun because of the shame from it. You can find the viewable GoogleDocs document right here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oURljGn6Ujef1veCrViwuiOu1tZd6w9D3VVt2LKEcqA/edit)

Training the garrison ahead of the battle
As indicated earlier, savvy parties will probably wind up back at Brindol well ahead of schedule. Sidequests from Brindol and the party's own preparations can take up part of the intervening time, but how do we avoid "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're out there raising the troops' morale, we're telling the kid with his dad's old sword how to swing it properly, but is there anything mathematically we're doing to help these morons?"

kjones found a way. When the players are in Brindol, awaiting the arrival of the Hand, they'll have the option to train the soldiers and militia, and prepare the defense of the city. They can do so in one of four ways - melee combat, ranged combat, defense and tactics, and first aid. These benefits then apply to any NPC allies you give to the characters as support during the Battle.

For each day of training a character leads, they make a DC 25 check, with the following modifiers.

Melee combat: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Charisma modifier (and must have relevant proficiencies)
Ranged combat: Base attack bonus + Dex modifier + Charisma modifier (and must have relevant proficiencies)
Defense and Tactics: Base attack bonus + higher of Int or Wis modifier + Charisma modifier
First Aid: Heal skill + Charisma modifier
Magical Defense: Make a check with a bonus equal to caster level + relevant ability modifier.

A successful check means that they can put 1 point into that category. A failed roll means they can retry in the same category at a cumulative +2 DC and use up another day, or change categories (and someone else can take the bonus for that category if they want).

During the Battle of Brindol, they can spend their points on NPCs as follows:

Melee combat:

* 1 point: +1 to hit / +1 damage on a single attack roll

* 2 points: Grant the use of the Mobility feat for a single round

* 3 points: Automatically confirm a threat

Ranged combat:

* 1 point: +1 to hit / +1 damage on a single attack roll

* 2 points: +1 to the damage of a standard volley per archer (volleys as per Heroes of Battle)

* 3 points: +1 to the damage of a concentrated volley per archer

Defense and Tactics:

* 1 point: Before a combat, mark a single square as filled with rubble (difficult terrain)

* 2 points: Delay the arrival of enemy reinforcements for 1 round

* 3 points: Before a combat, place a single 5-foot section of waist-high palisade

First Aid:

* 1 point: Automatically succeed on a single DC 15 heal check.

* 2 points: An NPC gains the effects of Diehard for one round.

* 3 points: A stabilized NPC is disabled instead of unconscious.

Magical defense:

* 1 point: Add +1 to any saving throw against a magical effect.

* 2 points: An NPC gains the effects of Evasion or Mettle for a round.

* 3 points: An NPC gains the effects of Improved Evasion or Improved Mettle for a round.

The DCs are such that a person skilled in that area should have about a 25% chance of making the check any given day. Thus, if they're in Brindol for 20 days, they'll have an average of 25 or so points spread around. There are 5 main encounters in the Battle of Brindol, 3 of which involve NPCs prominently, so we're talking about 8 points per battle - that's enough for 2 or 3 cool things per battle.

The Audience with the Lords
This is the meet-and-greet with Brindol's rulers ahead of the battle, when you're deciding strategy. It’s also the big roleplaying opportunity of the adventure; you should be pulling your hardest to make the party care about your NPCs in this meeting, if you haven’t done so at Drellin’s Ferry already.

This encounter is also where the players are most likely to come up with wild (or terrifyingly good) plans to defend Brindol. If they do so, honour those plans by having them make an impact on the battle in some way. I can't emphasise that enough. If your players are making those sorts of plans, it means they are invested in your game's world and you're succeeding in your primary job as a DM. I'm not saying let them win the entire battle before it happens, but at least tell them something like "The Red Hand would have fielded chimaeras in the battle, but since you burned up the meat trucks in the Hand's baggage train, the chimaeras left the Red Hand, so you won't be facing any of them in the battle."

There are three big problems with the encounter as written:

(1) Mechanically it's largely insignificant. It comes down to a series of Diplomacy rolls and the party gets a maximum of 8 VP if they choose right. If your party has skipped big sections of the adventure to this point, that will make a difference, but it's entirely possible to pass the "victory" line in terms of VP before the party sets foot in the Great Hall.

(2) The choices here as written make no difference to the given encounters in the Battle of Brindol. Kharn will still try to step on a church in your town whether you stage the clerics there or not. The course of the battle is basically set.

(3) Some of the tactical "decisions" are so obvious you'd have to be a Blathering Idiot 20 to get them wrong. Specifically, (a) whether to station Brindol's entire army outside the walls and engage the Red Hand in the field, and (b) whether the lords have any sort of plan for the wall being breached. By this stage the lords will know they're heavily outnumbered and that the Red Hand is fielding dragons. Jarmaath is an ex-adventurer and fought Regiarix once, so he would be aware of the destructive capacity dragon/s can bring to a battle. Engaging outside the walls breaks all suspension of disbelief, as does the failure to make contingency plans for the walls falling, given the force against them.

So what to do? It seems to me there's three approaches one could take:

(1) Make the consequences of the Audience more strategically significant. Commit that the course of the battle, including where and how the encounters take place, hinges upon the decisions the lords make in this meeting. For example, no clerics holed up in the Cathedral means Kharn doesn't push for the Cathedral, but instead pushes for Brindol Keep, which is where the final battle takes place. Not recommended unless you've got a lot of spare time between making plans and running the battle for the party, but the five encounters can be window-dressed to take place in different locations without a lot of fuss.

(2) Make the consequences of the Audience more personally significant to the party.At Brindol you've got several NPCs that hopefully the characters have come to know and at least be fond of. Set up choices for the players where they have to weigh up putting favourite NPCs at risk against added risks to themselves. The key is to give the players a choice that benefits the party personally but overall detracts from the city strategically (or indeed vice versa).

For example, the cleric decision: if you station all the clerics at the Cathedral, then they can heal people better (+2 VP), and Tredora Goldenbrow survives because she's not exposed to enemy fire, but healing potions available to the party in battle may be cut or entirely lost. The reverse applies if you station out the clerics: the party has more healing potions available, but Tredora Goldenbrow's going to die. (-2 VP)

(3) Make some cosmetic changes to the Audience so the more obvious decisions aren't quite so, well, obvious. For example, the decision whether to fight a field battle against the Red Hand becomes a decision whether or not to send the cavalry out to get a quick punch in against the army before retiring to the city gates. Still gets a -2 to VP if chosen, but nowhere near as asinine as putting Brindol's entire army out in front of the walls.

Things to do ahead of the Red Hand's arrival
As said, a lot of parties get back to Brindol well ahead of the Red Hand. Even allowing for the encounters the book provides, DMs sometimes find themselves having to come up with stuff for the players to do other than sit back and wait. We've talked about preparing the garrison for the battle, but here's some other thoughts and ideas for DMs to suggest or adjudicate on...

Wizards with Teleport, at least in reasonably well-populated settings, have potential to bring serious outside help for the Vale. 900 miles in a single casting likely gets a wizard and friends to some major population centre where, you guessed it, the party could hire mercenaries to assist in the city's defence. In Faerun, for example, going by the "orthodox" placement of Elsir Vale in Channath Vale, a level 9 wizard at Brindol has virtually anywhere from the Lake of Steam to the Great Rift (with its population of thousands of dwarves) to seek out hirelings. 12,000 gp in spare change is enough on DMG rates to double the size of Brindol's garrison in level 1 warriors for a full month of fighting, even buying a spear for each and every one. Fortunately my guys didn't go looking for mercenaries, but I calculated out that with the time they had left, the wizard could go to the Great Rift, hire out a bunch of dwarves, and have them hoof it on foot to the Vale. On the time they had, that extra dwarf force could have made it to the battle in time. The possibilities are even more interesting if you consider quality over quantity: say, another level 6 wizard or something to help in the battle.

Digging a moat around Brindol's walls (using the Elsir River that runs on the city's north side) was suggested. I calculated this one out: for a moat about 30 feet wide x 10 feet deep you'd need to move 39,000 cubic tons of earth (and find sufficient manpower to do it). I also ruled the party would need to retain an expert with Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) so that massive water inflow didn't erode the wall itself. (But experts are also very, very cheap on DMG rates).

Using Stone Shape castings to buttress the city walls from assault (which could have some consequences for the Saving the Walls encounter).

Brewing up mass Alchemist's Fire cauldrons to tip over the walls.

Mass production of caltrops to throw across the Red Hand's path to the wall, dropping their movement speed.

Using Ulwai's Staff of Stormclouds (if captured) to create thunderstorms over Brindol, thus cutting the movement rate of the hobgoblins advancing on the walls by making the ground muddy.

Appealing to the Black Knives (Rillor Paln's guild of thieves) to assist in the defence of the city: this could be a nice Diplomacy encounter for the party rogue.

Getting the clerics of Wee Jas and/or Yondalla to assist in the city defence by casting Consecrate on the city graveyard, thereby preventing undead being raised during the attack.

As for "outings" from the city itself:

Scouting out the Red Hand's precise disposition as it approaches the city walls. This is one of those aspects that Rich Baker actually alluded to when spruiking the module on release, but it never got any official support in the book as such. I didn't have a specific encounter in mind for this, but it could be a useful rogue-ish sort of thing for the party to do. Another alternative is if the party's got Scrying as a spell, since that's an appallingly easy spell to use and the party has some knowledge of some of the figures in the Red Hand (or should do by now).

Protecting foraging parties. RHOD refers to the fact Jarmaath orders an early harvest in every town ahead of the Red Hand on the assumption the Hand will either take that produce or burn it outright; they need every piece of fruit or grain they can get against the next winter. I had it that Jarmaath's foragers would cut it pretty fine, trying to harvest everything only about three days ahead of the Hand's arrival in an area. The party is a natural choice to intervene if any of the Red Hand's outriders try to accost the foragers.

Depending on the timing, guiding the Shining Axes by a safer path back to Brindol if it looks like they're going to run into the Red Hand before they reach the city. Dwarves can move at about 2 miles per hour, so 20 miles per day, which means a good 5 days travel to reach Brindol from the northernmost settlement in the Hammerfist Holds.

Bloodying the Red Hand's nose: a stealthy or teleport-capable party could very feasibly perform a series of hit-and-run operations against the Hand, especially if they've got Scrying available. A party should never be left with the impression it can personally defeat the massed Red Hand on its own, of course, but it's easy for the party to do a few morale-sapping missions that don't actually change the encounters at Brindol but do have an effect -- for example, the party torching the Red Hand's wagons that contain their divine scroll library. Or destroying supply depots left behind on the Dawn Way. Or assassination (see next heading.) Or (shudder) asteroid strikes by a combination of Major Creation and Teleport.

Assassination, Wyrmlord Kharn specifically. It's feasible to a party with Teleport and Scrying and who have a method to deal out a big number of hitpoints in a single round. Wyrmlord Kharn tends to wind up as the target a lot. Given the way he's travelling with the Red Hand I would definitely have a contingency plan in place for the party taking him out, mainly because the Red Hand only has one cleric with sufficient levels to cast Raise Dead: Azarr Kul, who's obviously otherwise occupied. Quick workarounds are to have a few Raise Dead scrolls with the Red Hand: warpriests can cast them so long as they pass a CL check, because they all have WIS 16. I opted for a "Nice Job Breaking It, Hero" thing: they assassinated Kharn, but when the warpriests raised him, a spell mishap occurred that brought Kharn back as a Death Knight (MM 3).

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:45 AM

Part Four: The Battle of Brindol

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Se9d5Nle7s8/TVQpBmKf70I/AAAAAAAAAI4/PXzjS7NzX4o/s1600/The+Battle+of+Brindol.jpg

...No, we don't know why the giant's throwing rocks at the wall rather than the gate.

Streamlining the battle
Glyphstone came up with a novel approach to avoiding having to go through every melee encounter in the Battle and bring home to the party the sense that their decisions count. You can find the full discussion here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?218881-Yet-Another-RHoD-Campaign-Journal-PF-this-time/page3&highlight=Red+Hand+of+Doom).

Assume your players have 'done the right thing', by breaking the blockades near Rhest, recruiting the Tiri Kitor and the Dwarven Mercenaries.

There are four 'crisis points' during the Red Hand's initial assault - key attempts to breach the city or cause havoc amongst the defenders. At each point, the party can assign one of the four groups of allies they'd collected to deal with the problem, or go deal with it themselves. Every ally is effective against two of the problems, and ineffective against two - if they picked the wrong matchup, the Streets of Blood encounter becomes a bit harder.

(For this, there's an assumption that the Red Hand first tries assaulting the walls of Brindol with ladders and a big dose of cannon fodder, simply to overwhelm Brindol's troops.)

The dwarven mercenaries are effective against ground-based targets, and useless against airborne enemies.
The northern reinforcements (light cavalry) are best used against big targets, since they have a limited supply of javelins.
The elves are most useful against large numbers of smaller enemies, coordination and formation making up for the smaller damage of their projectiles.
Immerstal the Red is best-used where his ability to fly and use magic would have the most effect.

Dwarven Mercenaries
Northern Reinforcements
Tiri Kitor Elves
Immerstal the Red
Loss Effect on Streets of Blood

Initial Wall Assault
Win
Loss
Win
Loss
Extra Wave of Cannon Fodder

Hill Giant Battery
Win
Win
Loss
Loss
Random boulders falling on defenders

Manticores
Loss
Loss
Win
Win
Fewer friendly mooks

Abithriax
Loss
Win
Loss
Win
No barricade

Saving (or not) the Walls
This encounter does need some alteration -- but not necessarily to the monsters. What generates the tension and drama in this encounter is the following question: Is the wall going to break?

On the 'book' RHOD, it won't. 25 rounds of uninterrupted throwing by the giants is never going to happen in a real campaign. Brindol's own troops can statistically beat that time limit with crossbows just fishing for critical hits.

Therefore: inject a real time constraint to the encounter. Two possible ways to do this: make the walls shakier, or make the monsters a bit more capable. (Or both, depending on your party).

Simplest fix: give the Hill Giants a single level in Hulking Hurler (Complete Warrior), use that book's rules on thrown objects, and have two of the giants chuck real boulders at the PCs while the other two concentrate on breaking the wall as you describe audible CRACK noises from the wall as the boulders rain on it. The Hill Giants probably won't last any longer, but the players should sweat more. Indeed, rather than calculate wall hitpoints, just fiat that the walls fall after 15 hits from boulders, and start the countdown.

Other ideas--

Skullcrusher Ogres and a catapult: MM4 Skullcrusher Ogres present a more credible threat than the default ogres here. Combining them with an actual siege engine makes things a bit more interesting. Or consider a Siege Golem out of Heroes of Battle for a living catapult - albeit its challenge rating and immunities mean there'll really be only one or two ways to kill it, which can be unfun.

Spell turrets: From the DMG 2. By RAW, a turret has loads more hitpoints and has to either be destroyed entirely or disabled by a rogue to be stopped. However, also by RAW, spell turrets have a "radar" limited to 120 feet and don't target objects. And that's before you look for four spells, each of a different school, of the same level, that damage objects, at Long range. It's like finding a word that rhymes with "orange."

More troops: Another ten-odd hobgoblin squaddies might function as speedbumps against the big or well-optimised party.

The Batman Gambit: The encounter is the Red Hand's attempt to draw off high level adventurers from the West Gate, which is the Hand's real target -- or as a distraction to get Abithriax above the city unopposed. This makes Abithriax's role a bit bigger in the story and makes his use in the battle a bit less random.

Abithriax's Rampage
General dragon advice applies ... maybe. If you're dealing with a big/optimised party you might up his size. Increasing from Juvenile to Young Adult gives Abby Spell Resistance, Frightful Presence, DR 5/magic, second level spells, and raises his main combat stats. He’s a bit stronger than his buddies out of the box.

An easy way to make the fight a little more challenging is to have it in a section of town that's on fire -- not because of the fires as such, but because of the smoke that comes with them. Fort saves for all PCs, starting at DC 15, increasing round by round, imposing no actual condition to be cured, makes things much more interesting. You will fiat that smoky-nosed dragons are immune to smoke as well as fire. And then there's the 20% concealment chance; if you make melee attacks, you'll surely have cast Blindsight from a scroll first.

Leaving aside the “fun” of building a whole section of a city to have one encounter over, consider changing the object of Abby’s rampage. Rather than a random part of town, some DMs have him attack Brindol Keep itself, with the garrison there undermanned or outright scattered, the dragon incinerating people inside the place, Harrenhal style. Since Abby fights to the death, this allows for a nice final death dive by the dragon into the keep itself.

He could use some feat changes. Which ones depend on whether you shift his build from melee-and-breathe to something else.

If you’re planning on melee, then even if you don’t upgrade his size, Awesome Blow, Flyby Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Wingover can go. Abby has a full attack pushing 4d6+3d8+38 damage with good attack bonuses -- before incorporating Power Attack, which (assuming you take the full +16 BAB penalty) increases potential damage to 3d6+2d8+134, assuming everything hits with attack bonuses at +8 and five +6s. Although it’s abundantly cool to carry out, Awesome Blow ties you down to a standard action and mechanically is an unstoppable trip and +1d6 damage. Flyby Attack and Improved Bull Rush also tie you down to a single attack, and Wingover is only useful if the party’s nimble.

Replace the feats with Travel Devotion, Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, and Improved Multiattack. Now Abby can close from 150 feet out as a swift action and then deliver an appalling full attack of Bite +24/Claw +24/Claw +24/Claw +19/Claw +14/Claw +14/Claw +14/Wing +24/Wing +24/Tail +24, for a total of 4d6+6d8+54 damage ... before Power Attack is factored in. (Which raises the maximum possible damage to 4d6+6d8+214).

Your focus should be to close in, cheesegrate a PC, back off to a nearby rooftop, monologue about the doom of men, and repeat. Or just cast Blood Wind, dispense with closing in at all, grate cheese, monologue, and wait for someone to hit you with a Shivering Touch to end the fight.

Which is to say: your weak spots will still be magic. Therefore, cast Wings of Cover, Nerveskitter, Conviction, Scintillating Scales, and anything else that a red dragon with access to both the cleric and arcane lists should use. Alternatively, replace Improved Multiattack with some option that allows a second roll on a failed save, maybe gift yourself a one-off Iron Heart Surge via Martial Study.

If you’re planning to turn this into a more classic, Bard-at-Dale, ‘hit the dragon as it flames stuff on the wing’, then Awesome Blow, Power Attack, Multiattack, Improved Bull Rush, and Wingover can all go. You won’t be melee’ing much, so why bother?

By way of replacement, consider Knowledge Devotion, Heighten Breath, Recover Breath, Hover, and Empower Supernatural Ability (your breath, dummy).

Your aim is to skirmish. There's little chance Abithriax will get a full attack off, so just breathe and break contact, or just flyby with a single bite attack. You could annoy the snot out of your players using double moves to best advantage; at least use your 150 foot movement allowance to make huge jumps around the battlefield, and remember you can hide behind buildings since the wall of Brindol is 30 feet high, buildings are between 10 and 25 feet therefore, and you are a 10 foot high dragon at best. No line of sight means no line of effect.

Lastly, if like most of us you're irritated by the "suicide by adventurer" that Abby is required to do on RHOD's text, take Final Strike out of Savage Species for a post-death raised middle finger to the party. :smallbiggrin:

Streets of Blood
Modifications here vary substantially depending on specific parties. It doesn't necessarily require vastly upgrading monsters; this encounter is ‘meant’ to include NPC allies including elves, owls, and Lions of Brindol, so one way to increase difficulty is to just cut NPCs. Depending on how effective the party's been, they'll face between three and five waves of troops, though assuming the party doesn't metagame you could just throw five waves at the party even if they've foiled the Hand's efforts in Rhest and with the Ghostlord. The main thing to remember is this: like all the others before the confrontation with Kharn, this encounter is only meant to wear down the party's resources, not TPK them.

A lot of DMs instinctively realise the last wave does well reaching some sort of crescendo with a decent opponent thrown at the party. AslanCross in Eberron went for a Warforged Titan; another popular suggestion is to replace the Bluespawn Thunderlizards with a straight out Bluespawn Godslayer. Whilst a godslayer's certainly thematically appropriate, it's also a pretty powerful option -- perhaps even anticlimactic given the party still has Kharn coming up. Personally, I'd reserve a Godslayer for the Fane of Tiamat, where it has a more dramatic impact.

Another way to enhance the difficulty here is to widen the street a bit and just swarm the party. Have more monsters just running to get to the far end of the street. The party loses this encounter if 20 monsters get to the far end, and if they need to move more than five feet, full attacks usually disappear.

Or consider changes to the location. In my campaign, I put the players at the deserted west gate of Brindol, ordered to hold the gate until reinforcements could be cobbled together.

The Sniper Attack
Fixing the Kulkor Zhul War Adepts:
Bearing in mind that the players still have two encounters to go, you might not greatly alter the adepts. Their purpose is to inconvenience the party long enough for Skather to get his buff on, so they don't need to really be rebuilt. The only suggested change is to their spells. One possibility is to replace one of their Lightning Bolts with Shatterfloor -- difficult terrain all around makes thing a bit more interesting. But I suggest you substitute one of their first level spells with Sticky Floor from Races of the Dragon. It has a low-ish Reflex save to prevent being stuck in place, but even if they save, PCs are entangled while they're in the area of that spell: move at half speed, -2 to attack rolls, and -4 to DEX ... which affects Reflex saves, AC, and Initiative, synergising nicely with the casters' lightning bolts. Thematic and appropriate. Coating the open areas of floor with a few of these effects is logical stuff for an emplaced hit squad to do -- it slows down intruders until the hobgoblins have time to beat it.

Another possibility is to replace one of the adepts with a reasonably high level Swordsage for more martial protection. Or: backing up Skather with one or two Ghost-Faced Killer builds equipped with invisibility potions to get them in range. GFKs are generally overlooked for PCs because most opponents you face have more HD than your GFK class level, which cuts down on their fear-blasting features. That may not be the case if you have a GFK 6 or so who has a CHA-boosting item and a couple of bloodline levels -- the PCs should have around 8-9 HD at this point, and generally no items granting fear immunity. Two GFKs overlapping their fear assaults could be devastating.

Fixing Skather:
As written, Skather is just plain old underwhelming: a cut and paste Blackspawn Exterminator from the MM IV, with a CR of 10 and a suck value of A+ since he relies on 6 levels in Ninja for most of his combat skills. He can poison, but it's subpar: at these levels, parties' saves are usually too high or too buffable for sassone leaf residue poison with a DC 16 to make an impact.

The solution is drawn from the Poisoner's Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714.0). Take a stock blackspawn raider from RHOD and add one of the following builds:

Rogue 2/Assassin 5. Feat selections (using 1 flaw): Weapon Finesse, Master of Poisons, Poison Expert, Poison Master, Venomous Strike, Staggering Strike, Terrifying Strike - swap out Power Attack, Track, and Improved Initiative. Replace his poisons with Black Lotus Extract, and an Assassination short sword (along with other refinements the Poisoner Handbook suggests to his weapon).

You now have a character who can reliably apply poisons to his weapons as a swift action. Increased Virulence, Poison Expert, Venomous Strike, and the Assassination properties of the weapon raise the DC by 8, on top of an indirect -4 to saves that Terrifying Strike and Staggering Strike impose. Even sassone leaf residue is looking a bit more impressive at DC 24 rather than DC 16. Black Lotus starts at DC 20, does 3d6 Con damage primary which affects Fort saves...before the Assassin's Death Attack kicks in.

Death Attack is going to be tricky to arrange unless you can keep Skather hidden from the party for 3 rounds while they're in the same room as him. This can be fixed by giving a mostly-spent Wand of Deathsight (Complete Mage). And you've got +4d6 sneak attack damage; spellcasting which includes True Strike and Obscuring Mist; Evasion; Improved Uncanny Dodge; and all the rest. For one more HD than his RHOD default.

Duskblade 7. This build is more "tank and spank" with a poisonous flavour. Feat selections (again, using 1 flaw): Master of Poisons, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Draconic Aura (energy: acid) traded for Track, Poison Spell, Smiting Spell, Knowledge Devotion, and Combat Expertise.

Make his falchion a whirling weapon. Give him a few doses of Black Lotus or Darklight Brew. He can still poison his weapon as a swift action, but also channel stuff like Chill Touch with Poison Spell metamagic'd into it, resulting in multiple poisonings on one pass -- from the weapon and the spell. And then Smiting Spell, which gives you one more poisonous touch spell a round. He also has a 7d4 breath weapon at DC 19 if you really needed it.

Did I mention that Dimension Hop can be channelled and that Skather is operating on the second floor of a building? Or that he has Knowledge Devotion, and that Knowledge (Local) covers pretty well every PC in existence since most are humanoids? Or that a falchion's a two-handed weapon and thus synergises with Power Attack?

For a large party, it might actually be worth taking both the above builds: the Duskblade "Skather" engages the party while an "assassin" Skather hides and waits for his moment with the Death Attack.

Built like this, Skather becomes a WBL-heavy opponent. Poisons are expensive, as are custom magic items, so you might want to restrain yourself on equipment elsewhere.

Don't go an archer build. There's no point (and no pun intended, either.) You can achieve the fact of Skather being an archer sniper by throwing a plain old bow and arrows amongst his gear.

Restatting Wyrmlord Kharn
Kharn seems to need fixing on most people's experiences of the campaign. This is mostly because he gets most of his levels from a "meh" class, and then for an encore goes on to PrC into a similarly "meh" class.

Most obviously, with 68 hitpoints, he's well and truly within possibility of being one-shotted by a half-optimised barbarian build. Rebuilding him isn’t all about the hitpoints, but he needs to be a warrior befitting the leadership of a rampaging army. That is, controlling the action economy, decent attack accuracy, and credible damage to PCs.

The general consensus is that Kharn does well as a Ruby Knight WINVindicator: the PrC preserves most of your divine spellcasting levels and advances martial maneuvers.

The two shortest paths into RKV are via cleric or paladin. The difference fundamentally comes down to whether you want to keep full cleric versatility on spells, or go down the path of Battle Blessing from Complete Champion and rely on quick casting of Paladin spells and a somewhat higher baseline BAB.

Builds using Tome of Battle:

Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5. (Needs a refluff because RKV is solely a Wee Jas PrC on the prerequisites, but other than that, this is one of the more popular builds. If you really want to make your players cry, give Kharn two more levels to reach RKV 7, which unlocks the PrC’s most powerful and possibly most abused class feature: Divine Impetus, allowing you to get additional swift actions per round by expending turn undead attempts.)
Crusader 1/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5. (This one’s more devoted to getting a higher BAB at the expense of versatility with your spells. Has to be a Paladin of Tyranny because of the alignment issue. I'd strongly recommend Battle Blessing from Complete Champion. The feat lets you cast most paladin spells as swift actions. The Spell Compendium is a must for this build.)
Cleric 3/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5. Nice alternate if you want a different feel to Kharn. Domains: Trickery, Domination. Feats: Power Attack, Spell Focus (Enchantment)--Bonus from Domination Domain, Divine Defiance, Divine Vigor, Practiced Spellcaster. Here the maneuvers focus on high-damage blasters, like Divine Surge, which gives Kharn a different focus than just being the most uber fighter on the field.
Crusader 10 or Warblade 10. Don't make Kharn one of these. Even Kharn in his RHOD "book" form has spellcasting options, and he's the only one in the encounter who's got them.

(In passing, by way of refluffing the Ruby Knight Vindicator to the Eberron world, AslanCross came up with arguably one of the best-sounding alternative titles for an Tiamat-based RKV: the Knight of Five Sorrows, which just sings with High Fantasy and locks in with Tiamat's five ... well, you get it. I thoroughly recommend y'all steal that title for Kharn in your own campaigns. :smallwink:)

Builds not using Tome of Battle:

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/X 1. (Ordained Champion functions like a Paladin … only better. "X", of course, standing for any class you feel like.)
Paladin of Tyranny 7/Blackguard 4. Extra two levels are in here because Paladin of Tyranny can't qualify for Blackguard until he's got enough Hide ranks on him. (Although a better name for this build is “Paladin of Heisenberg’s Cheese”. A Paladin of Tyranny has levels in “paladin” and thus qualifies to “fall” and become a blackguard. Thus on RAW he gets all the extra benefits ex-paladins get. But in doing so, a Paladin of Tyranny never commits a good act and does not contravene his code of conduct. Therefore he never “falls”, thus retaining all his Paladin of Tyranny class abilities and spells and adding in all the blackguard’s abilities, which effectively means double the normal spells per day, and several more Smite Goods than he should otherwise have. He keeps all his paladin abilities, gets bonuses for not being a paladin anymore, and gets blackguard levels.) Vorteld teamed one of these guys up with a Redspawn Firebelcher, and it apparently made for an interesting fight.
Favored Soul 10. (Nothing that fantastic to write home about, but it’s an improvement on splitting his levels up between Favored Soul and Talon of Tiamat.) For building better Favored Souls, consider these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152070) two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174133) GITP threads.
Cleric 10. (CoDzilla being the operative build here. And strictly speaking more powerful than at least two of the options above. It would maybe rate higher if only for the fact this doesn't make Kharn that much different to Azarr Kul, and it's important to keep the Wyrmlords distinct from one another.)

Here's a sample Kharn build, from kjones' campaign:

Wyrmlord Hravek Kharn, CR 9
Male hobgoblin Crusader 1 / Cleric 4 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
LE Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +4
Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +3, Spot +3
Languages Common, Draconic, Goblin, Infernal

AC 24, touch 10, flat-footed 24 (29)
HP 66 (9 HD)
Resist fire 5 (cold 10)
F/R/W +12/+6/+7
(+17/+11/+12)

Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 wounding heavy pick +12/+7 (1d6 + 4 + 1 Con / x4)
(+16/+11 [1d6 + 7 + 1 Con / x4] )
Base Atk +8/+3 Grp +11 (+13)
Maneuvers
7 known 2 readied 2 stances

4th: White Raven Strike (+4d6 damage, target becomes flat-footed)
3rd: Revitalizing Strike (You or ally heals 3d6 + 7)
2nd: Shield Block (+8 to AC for adjacent ally)
Tactical Strike (+2d6 damage, adjacent allies move 5 feet)
1st: Vanguard Strike (allies gain +4 bonus on attacks against target)
Stone Bones (DR 5/adamantine)
Crusader's Strike (heal 1d6+5)

Stances
Leading the Charge (+7 damage to charges)
Martial Spirit (+2 HP / hit)

Spells (CL 7, domains Destruction, Evil)
4th (1 + 1, DC 17):
Unholy Blight*, Air Walk
3rd: (3+1, DC 16):
Magic Circle Against Good*, Wind Wall, Invisibility Purge, Dispel Magic
2nd: (4+1, DC 15):
Shatter*, Bull's Strength+, Resist Energy (cold)+, Bear's Endurance
1st (5+1, DC 14):
Protection from Good*+, Shield of Faith+, Conviction+, Remove Fear, Divine Favor+, Bless

*: Domain spell
+: Already cast, currently active

Other Special Attacks
Smite (+4 to hit, +4 to damage) 1/day
Divine Recovery (Recover a maneuver as a swift action 6/day)
Furious Counterstrike
Steely Resolve 5

Equipment 2 potions of cure serious wounds, potion of fly, potion of remove blindness/deafness, potion of lesser restoration

Abilities Str 16 (20), Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 16

Skills Concentration +15, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Hide +3

Feats Power Attack, Survivor's Luck, Unbelievable Luck, Lucky Start (4 luck rerolls, apply to init, saves)

Possessions combat gear, +2 red dragoncraft full plate, +1 light fortification heavy steel shield, +1 wounding heavy pick, masterwork light crossbow with 20 bolts, gauntlets of ogre power, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1

Bear in mind this "Kharn" template is down one level on the RHOD standard because he was resurrected from a PC-led assassination earlier in the campaign. Even so; you get CL 7 and maneuvers as a 7th level Crusader - that is, just access to level 4 maneuvers & spells (remember, classes other than martial adepts count for 1/2 an IL). Even though it gets him slightly fewer skills and HP, it'll give him ability to pick 2nd level maneuvers on level 1 of Crusader (as he only gets 2 new maneuvers out of Ruby Knight, bulk of his maneuvers are going to come from level 1 of Crusader so not being limited to level 1 on them is very good).

No rebuild, spells/equipment/feats alterations only:
- Replace Gauntlets of Ogre Power with Amulet of Health +2 CON.
- Replace Ring of Protection with a 25% charged Ring of the Ram.
- Trade Heavy Pick for Dragonbone Longbow
- Trade Air Walk for Freedom of Movement, Mass Shield of Faith, Imbue With Spell Ability, Greater Magic Weapon
- Trade Searing Light for Mass Lesser Vigor, Magic Circle Against X, or Magic Vestment
- Trade Death Knell for Close Wounds or Spiritual Weapon
- Trade Endurance, Diehard for Point Blank Shot and Travel Devotion.

Kharn becomes a primary buffer/secondary ranged attacker rather than the most uber melee guy on the field. Imbue With Spell Ability and Greater Magic Weapon are used on the hill giants before the battle to give them some minor healing or similar. He hits from range with his bow, repositions using Travel Devotion, and keeps players back using the Ring of the Ram.

Modify the hill giants: trade in Improved Sunder for Awesome Blow. Now the PCs are sent flying all over the battlefield, or into the path of Kharn’s breath weapon. Indeed that breath weapon is better with CON-boosters rather than STR boosters, i.e. another reason the +2 CON item replaces the Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

He needs some support!
If the Battle's been going right, then hopefully your divine or arcane spellcasters will have largely shot their bolts on other challenges, bringing this fight down to a real grind of low-level spells. But generally parties are savvy enough to hold back at least one nuke in the backpack to mess with what seems to be the End-Of-Level boss, and Kharn is pretty much the definition of that. Having extra melee combatants helps a little -- I like Hill Giants with levels in Hulking Hurler and War Hulk -- but melee combatants are woefully underprepared for Will-blasting spells in particular. Against a large party in particular and against an optimised party, Kharn needs some spellcasting backup to make up for a distinct disadvantage on the action economy, be it a couple of cleric casters or an arcanist or two -- someone who can at least intercept the party's Ray of Stupidity with a Dispel Magic or similar. (Some potential candidates for this spellcasting backup are actually Kharn's lovers, who are mentioned earlier in the module - Pash-Kari and Ruven).

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:46 AM

Part Five: the Fane of Tiamat (and beyond)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--l3UjEHwUPM/TVQxItTj0GI/AAAAAAAAAI8/XnJ_WnfHTZE/s1600/The+Fane+of+Tiamat.jpg
Ya think they got her best side?

Just why the hell did he do all this?
One question that might have occurred to your party over the adventure is: wouldn't you prefer to have demons from Avernus buttressing your army? Why wouldn't Azarr Kul delay his campaign against Elsir Vale until he had completed the month-long ritual?

One answer DMs have come up with: tell the players that the Battle of Brindol was part of the ritual.

Kul’s portal-in-progress is not your Daddy's Gate. Kul isn't high level enough to cast the latter spell, and sure as hell isn't powerful enough to persist let alone make permanent a door to Avernus. Therefore: the ritual creating the portal requires a very, very large blood sacrifice in Tiamat's name. That sacrifice was made in the Red Hand's assault on Brindol: win or lose, many hobgoblins lose their lives on the city's wall, and every drop of blood shed was part payment of the price to open the doorway. This then partially explains the Red Hand's fanatical devotion to Tiamat: not because the Hand at large knows Kul's plan, but because only a massive sacrifice of followers is sufficient to complete the ritual. (Also compare the Eberron adaptation, which raises the stakes of the conflict much, much higher by dint of the setting's lore.)

This solution is a nice if cruel twist on the characters' expectations of victory at Brindol. Whether they lost or triumphed, they still played into Azarr Kul's plans. It also plays into Kul's role as a priest of Tiamat, whose domains include Trickery -- he deceived his entire people, who did not realise they were being thrown into battle for ulterior motives. As to how this information is revealed, it might be best to give Kul a monologue on the subject, or some helpful soul at the Fane who can be locked down to disclose this development. Ulwai shouldn't know this aspect of the plan, since it all but invites the players to run straight to the Fane and bust the door down.

Rebuilding the Fane of Tiamat
The Fane is a bit of a weird postscript to the Battle of Brindol. Some DMs just sling Azarr Kul directly into the Battle of Brindol and leave the overall climax of the adventure right there. Others literally run it back to front - allowed the players to rip up the Fane entirely and then run back to finish off the Red Hand's main force at Brindol.

There's any number of reasons why (the chief one being that the Battle of Brindol is a pretty powerful climax all on its own) but one of the campaign journalists put their finger on it: compared with the rest of the "dungeons" in the game, the Fane is very large and contains a number of encounters that don't really add anything to it. One example (and usually first up for DMly deletion) is Laryssa, the Night Hag the party encounters in the kitchen. Yeah, it shows the Fane is a "working environment"; yeah, it's a Night Hag; yeah, you might get a laugh if a dumb PC brews up a tea out of her nail clippings, but, well, so what?

Another element making the Fane a little cheesy is the module’s dictum that ‘set’ monsters only trigger when you enter their room. It's like bad videogame AI, whatever suspension of disbelief the writers were going for gets smashed. These are meant to be the most elite troops Azarr Kul's got, and they're all "Lugz only get paid to stare at doorway. Lugz don't care if dragon yelling 'intruders!'"

Of course there's a balance issue to be considered since swarming the PCs with every guard in the place is also most likely to be fatal to them. (On the other hand, if your party's optimised, swarming them with every guard in the place, in an appropriate spot like the temple, might turn out moderately awesome.)

One solution: cut down the size of the Fane and streamline it, and play up more forcefully the countdown to doom, accelerating the timetable before the portal opens and making it known to the players.

The entire dungeon then draws suspense from the urgency of the PCs' mission. As with the 'Saving the Walls' encounter back in the Battle, and RHOD as a whole, the countdown should be apparent and inexorable. It turns the "15 minute adventuring day" against the party, because the players won't (or shouldn’t) have time to stop and fully recharge their batteries for better wading in blood.

The following things could be included:

* Tyrgarun and the trap on the front door
* The foyer, more heavily defended
* The torture chamber, more or less unchanged
* The barracks and the priest's chambers, merged into a single area somehow
* The temple, guarded by the dragonspawn from the cave
* The treasury, guarded by the barbed devil, combined with the bedchamber - put the erinyes in the Inner Sanctum with Kul himself
* The inner sanctum

This leaves out the kitchen, eliminates the altar beneath the Inner Sanctum, removes the cave, and merges the barracks and the priest quarters. Think should result in a much tighter, more satisfying Chapter V.

Here's some other funky ideas that folks came up with for redesigning the Fane:

Make the Fane itself mostly deserted. Maybe every so often the PCs could encounter a band of guards, but they'd be terrified and probably just refuse to fight. Reason being: knowing the PCs are coming, Azar Kul has sped up the ritual. And so the portal has begun to spit out fiends at random points throughout the Fane. Because of DM handwavium ("unpredictable magical energies, whatever), these fiends are mostly demons, which means they've pretty much been tearing the place apart.

Some parts of the Fane just lead straight into Hell. The PCs would have to navigate the infernal environments. Although I realize it's cliche as hell, I can see them having to pass through several gates, each of which requires defeating a guardian in a battle that revolves around some gimmick, be it mental environment manipulation, riddles, whatever. The guardians would be devils, hyped up superhobbos, teams of spawn of Tiamat assassins, hordes of raving goblin cultist, bugbear ninja, etc.

The final gate leads back to the Material Plane. Azar Kul and the actual portal exist in a sort of "eye of the storm" situation. The PCs can see crackling hellish energies within spitting distance as they fight Teh BossMonster.

If you keep the cavern, increase its size and throw a Bluespawn Godslayer at the party here.

One significant element: as written, the Fane and Azarr Kul are wide open to scry-and-die tactics. RHOD is meant to top out at level 10. By that stage Scry and Teleport have come online. There is no mechanical element that keeps the party from teleporting in and nova'ing Kul. While this can be rather useful if you'd honestly rather cut past all of the Fane encounters and go direct to Kul himself, if you want to take the party through the Fane you're going to have to come up with some kind of funky handwavium to keep the casters out (and it'll need to be a more solid piece of handwavium than teleport errors ... since the cure for a Teleport error is invariably just to cast another Teleport.)

And because they're just awesome and specific, AslanCross's changes made to the Fane:

I really dislike the Night Hag encounter. It seems to me like a half-hearted attempt at levity in the final leg of the adventure. I prefer to keep the Fane spooky and very intimidating. I took it out and replaced it with a Naztharune Rakshasa assassin (it fit the story of one of my party's characters: his wife was murdered back home by a Rakshasa that was working with Azarr Kul).

As for what to add, I had the battle with Tyrgarun happen along a bridge that crosses the canyon. Naturally, a narrow, rickety, hanging bridge.

I also threw out the Blackspawn and replaced them all with multiple devils: mostly legion devils and chain devils. Chain devils are FANTASTIC for the barracks room due to the large number of meat chains hanging from the ceiling.

I also dramatically increased the power of the Bone Devil by giving him class levels, though in my run he wasn't meant to be a combat encounter. He gave the PCs a deal, offering to step out of the way if they took out the Glabrezu at the other end of the complex (I put the Glabrezu's prison chamber beyond the priest cells).

I also added a very annoying spell turret in the center of the main hallway of the Upper Fane, along with an Iron Golem (had to challenge my party due to it being fairly optimized and having 5 members; I do not recommend this for weaker parties). The Iron Golem was draconic in design (shaped like a Large half-dragon humanoid) and dealt slashing damage instead of bludgeoning thanks to enormous claws. It was actually left there by the original creators of the Fane. Thanks to a couple of deadly run-ins with it, the Red Hand squatters decided to just leave the golem alone and chose paths that circumvent it instead (there are many).

I also disliked how empty the council room was. I piled up lots of books on the table and had a very large map of Eberron pinned onto it. The giant Pentagram depicting the planar seal was drawn on it, with the Fane of Tiamat as one of the star's points. The map meant that there were other Fanes, and thus more locations for Azarr Kul to raid and perform his rituals at.

To make this room more interesting, I added a very large throne in a corner. It was big enough for an ogre. What for? You'll see later.

To round off the council chamber, I added a fire summoning trap (DMG 2). It basically incinerated the entire room along with the documents, and dropped a Fire elemental on the PCs. The trap was in Azarr Kul's throne.

Instead of wyverns, I put in a single Abyssal Drake in the Great Temple of Tiamat, along with mezzoloths and canoloths. Cloudkill as a spell-like ability is AWESOME.

What's a final dungeon populated by Spawn of Tiamat without a Bluespawn Godslayer? I replaced the razorfiends with this single butt-kicker. I dramatically increased the size of the Cavern of the Guardian Spawn, putting the eastern half on a rock shelf 200 feet up. The PCs had to scale a rickety, dangerous ladder to get up to the tunnel to the Outer Sanctum.

This ladder had a Blackspawn Stalker's web all around it. The Stalker itself was waiting on top beside the Godslayer.

Remember that throne in the council chamber? The really big one? For the Outer Sanctum, I added one last Rakshasa in it along with the lesser clerics and a hobgoblin crusader of Tiamat. (In Eberron, Tiamat's cult is primarily run by Rakshasas; particularly favored ones undertake a ritual that turns them into powerful half-dragon rakshasas.) This one was one of them: A large, half bronze-dragon Naityan rakshasa with swordsage levels. (Dragons in Eberron aren't alignment-color coded.)

Restatting Tyrgarun
By this point you shouldn't need to upgrade this dragon. He's older and has more abilities than the youngsters, so the fight with Tyrgarun shouldn't need a lot of reworking to the dragon himself.

Even so, there's an intriguing opportunity for bastardry available here. Remember how the module says that if you haven't been diligent in killing dragons, they'll show up again here? Well, suppose the party has been killing dragons but hasn't been doing much damage to the corpses...

Consider having zombie Ozyrrandion and zombie Regiarix showing up to support Tyrgarun in battle.

Restatting Azarr Kul and/or the Aspect
Azarr KulSimilar considerations as Kharn here. The final battle is a in a killing jar and hands the party a significant advantage in the action economy: Kul gets no guards to defend himself. For a party that has access to fifth-level spells (given they'll be level 10 or 11 at this point) a single Antilife Shell isn’t going to hold back a party long enough for Kul to buff up.

So how to deal with these?

One option -- which my DMing partner and I roughed out but never got down to figures or playtesting -- was to make the five dragon heads of the room have more functions than just supplying geysers of energy. We'd thought they themselves could have damage, buffs, or debuffs for Kul based on the colour of the head: the red head might supply [fire] immunity, and so on. The heads, though, could be dispelled or disabled, thus giving some party members something to do in the battle other than cast or kill things. As the heads came down, Kul's vulnerability increases.

Another option we came up with was to toss a bunch of Legion Devils (FF 2 I think) into the room every few rounds to keep up the melee pressure, and throw a Cornugon at the party as well. Kul himself I tried to change from an ordinary cleric into a wand wielder themed on elemental damage to get the whole "five heads of Tiamat" going, but for various reasons this was never tested in combat.

And one other choice is to fiat your way through it somewhat by giving Kul a 'super potion' of some kind that lets him put all his buffs on in one round, and support him with five lower-levelled copies of himself, each focusing on blasting and Dispel Magic with an elemental theme to each.

I think it's important to prepare for and take account of fifth-level magic and yet make Kul unique and memorable. That may well take both spellcasting and melee support for him: even as a Cleric 11 (and realistically there aren't many better builds than this for him) there is no way he can face off on his own against four or more level 10 characters. I think this is one of the hardest tasks in D&D to make the fight close and interesting: fifth level magic whether arcane or divine has a fair amount of rocket tag to it, and you need to bear that in mind as you go.

The Aspect of TiamatOne thought here is rather than have the Aspect drop through the portal, to rather do the whole 'This isn't even my final form' thing with Azarr Khul and have him morph into the Aspect.

But again: for all its finery, it's still a big, solo monster. With all that entails. Some people have complaints about how weak the Aspect actually is, in which case upgrading or using Endarire's rebuild (linked further down) may well suit your recipe a lot better.

Me, I stole a moment from the climax of the Dragonlance novel Dragons of Spring Dawning: let the PCs get a glimpse of Tiamat Herself as she desperately tries to claw her way onto the Prime Material Plane, let them think they've failed … and then the portal slams shut.

And The Adventure Continues
As something of a postscript, what are some thoughts for where characters can go after having killed Azarr Khul and/or the Aspect of Tiamat?

Some suggestions people have made based on a 10th to 11th level party by the end of the adventure:

Scales of War, being a 4e adventure path that follows on from RHOD, although obviously it would require back-conversion.
Rise of Tiamat, a 5e AP that’s set a generation on from RHOD, although again, requires back-conversion.
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Roughly level-appropriate, and if you wanted to pull some kind of "the planes themselves are put out of alignment as the Aspect dies and the portal to Avernus closes, and with a sudden darkness, you find yourself ... somewhere..." Ravenloft is a cute place to wind up. :)
Someone with a very sick sense of humour suggested the Tomb of Horrors. :smallbiggrin:
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. Jair Barik had some good thoughts on the transition to this: go with an ending of "the players jump into a portal and end up in Sigil", which allows you to segue into EttDP with the motive of getting home rather than just being out to get evil -- or alternatively, just give the players some downtime after RHoD and let their climactic battles there fade back a bit, since EttDP just starts off with fairly deadly opposition to begin with. There are some nice thematic concordances with the two campaigns - notably, more Aspects, and the players dealing with Demons rather than Devils from the RHoD Fane and consequently some plot intrigue stemming out of the Blood War.
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

Other plot hooks you could draw from:

Clean up. While Azarr Kul and Hravek Kharn may be dead, the Horde is far from gone: while scattered, hobgoblins and other monsters are still rampaging across the Elsir Vale, causing a great deal of havoc. If any Wyrmlords survived, they might reorganize the troops and prepare another assault; even if none did, a powerful Red Hand warpriest might seize control and begin their own invasion (or they might find a way to resurrect a fallen Wyrmlord).
The fifth Beatle dragon. Why were only four dragons present in the invasion? Simple. Azarr Kul had, in fact, made an alliance with a powerful white dragon from the frosty mountain peaks north of the Endless Plains, but he simply didn't have time to delay the invasion long enough for the dragon to arrive. Instead, the plan was that the white dragon would help him solidify his rule across the Elsir Vale, crushing any remaining resistance. So now, unaware that the Red Hand horde is in fact routed, this dragon arrives on its own...followed, of course, by a retinue of enslaved soldiers and monsters - and finds, while not perhaps the easy victory he had expected, a decimated land ripe for the picking.
The Fane of Tiamat. Azarr Kul didn't quite manage to complete his infernal gate, but his work and the arrival of the Aspect of Tiamat significantly injured the fabric of the Material Plane within the inner sanctum. If they can, remaining Red Hand warpriests might try to complete the ritual - or the hordes of Baator might break through themselves. Either way, Elsir Vale now finds itself under a new threat: ravening armies of Hell swarming out of the Wyrmsmokes, bent on destruction.
Vraath Keep. The PCs are heroes of the Elsir Vale, and as such Lord Jarmaath might see fit to grant them lordship over Vraath Keep and Drellin's Ferry. If they accept, the PCs will not only have to cope with rebuilding and repopulating the town and castle, but also clearing the shadow-filled eaves of the western Witchwood and driving back raids by remaining Red Hand warriors. To be sure, it will become a game that's quite different from the standard campaign, but nonetheless an interesting one. If you're prepared to do some work, it could even be a nice opportunity to segue into Pathfinder's Kingmaker adventure path, since the themes of "own a piece of the rock" are the same.
Lady Kaal and/or Rillor Paln, being the shifty powers in Elsir Vale. These two can easily cause problems fossicking in the ruins of the Fane and cause a further major threat to the Vale themselves.

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:49 AM

Other Resources, Campaign Journals, etc.

Very much under construction. Yes, even 12 years later.

Maps:

- Courtesy of the hardworking Antariuk, a gorgeous series of maps of:

Elsir Vale
Brindol
Vraath Keep

You can find this wonderful set of pictures at his DeviantArt page (https://www.deviantart.com/antariuk/gallery).

- A well-done colour Dundjinni map of The Causeway (i.e. the hydra encounter) can be found here (http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PN=5&TPN=3).

- A well-done colour Dundjinni map of Skull Gorge Bridge can be found here (http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6428&PN=0&TPN=1).

- A well-done colour Dundjinni map of The Roadblock can be found here (http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6431&PN=5&TPN=3).

- A very well-done Dundjinni colour map of the Bell Tower and Town Hall of Rhest can be found here (http://dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6656&PN=2)(scroll down the page a bit).

- An adequate map of the bell tower at Rhest: here. (http://dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=7926&KW=red+hand+of+doom)

- An adequate map of the Rhest town hall: here. (http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/uploads/mercutio/BC9_rhest_town_hall.jpg)

(If these links have timed out, Google image searches with these titles do turn up either copies of the maps or stuff that can function as substitutes.)

On printing these out at 1" format: the easiest way is to use graphics software that can display measurements (often called "rulers") and then just scale the image to fit the 1" square measurements. Many programs, including Paint.Net (free and very powerful) do this. Remember to adjust your printer settings as well, very often people forget that standard settings use borders around images and then the final print doesn't fit.

Campaign Journals
Hosted here on GITP:
AslanCross's RHOD campaign journal, set in Eberron. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110022)
Saph's RHOD campaign journal, set in the Forgotten Realms. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94243)
kjones' RHOD campaign journal, set in a generic (?) campaign world. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100257)
Jon_Dahl's campaign journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417731-NO-SPOILERS!-The-doomest-and-red-handest-of-all-RHoD-Campaign-Journals!), which is one of those rare instances where Brindol is in fact destroyed.

One of my RHOD campaigns, played in PbP format:
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/a-tide-of-flames-a-d20-dungeons-dragons-adventure.28108372/
Many of the posts are truncated due to a board error transferring from IGN to Xenforo, but the last quarter or so of posts are normal and readable.

The Caligula journal:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150917053802/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1061626
This journal gets a lot of fond mentions in the wreckage of the old gleemax boards; it's a very, very long campaign thread and Caligula apparently put a lot of work into sidequests and making his players care about the campaign. You'll find a lot of familiar tactics here. May be the read if you're not already familiar with it.

Alternate builds for various NPCs or opponents in RHOD:

From Inkeyes, using Tome of Battle, in an Eberron setting - hobgoblin rank and file
Hobgoblin Regular (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=235976)
Hobgoblin Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=241553)
Goblin Worg Rider (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=236032) (Uses Dragon #336 variant)
Warbeast Wolf (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=236101)
Hobgoblin Sergeant (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=235991) & Hobgoblin Veteran (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=236003)
Hobgoblin Chain-bearer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=236010): Instead of being a blade-bearer Inkeyes thought it'd be funny to make him a spiked-chain tripper.
Super Cheerleader (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=244755): This build uses the Sublime Way Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) which seems to have disappeared from the web. Here's (http://www.mediafire.com/?kldie1cdha695xa) the full fix in a word doc. I also made a weaker version (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=241562) as an alternative to archers with the Regulars.
Doom Fist Monk (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=236014): He's an unarmed Swordsage.
Kulor Zul Mindbender (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=236129): I rebuilt him into a telepath Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm). I went with this so the Ardent in my group would have the chance to find some nice psionic items.

From Inkeyes, again in Eberron - dragons and Wyrmlords

Dragons:

Ozyrrandion (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=231428) is a mercury dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040103a). He comes out to the same CR as before, but if anyone thinks he needs upgrading I'd love input. I figured that a glittering metallic dragon would throw the party off since most of them probably forgot dragons can be any alignment. It's also very likely they'll mistake him with a Silver dragon and attack him with fire spells (which he's immune to).

Regiarix (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=231470) is a Topaz Dragon from the Monster Manual 2. He's the same CR as well, according to the 3.5 update of the book.

Vaaranthian (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=233136) is a dragon now! My first party was confused and disappointed in the end when there was no fifth dragon to fight; facing the draconic servants of Tiamat meant five would show up, right? Feel free to ignore this one if you prefer the Fiendish Behir. I think Fang Dragons are pretty awesome, though. She comes out to the same CR, and gets a bunch of interesting goodies. Due to their nature, fang dragons get larger damage die, Con drain (instead of a breath weapon), and cool SLAs. The source I used was the Draconomicon, but they're in Monsters of Faerun too.

Abithriax (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=233704) is a half-white brass dragon. I picked a brass as a base creature because the idea of a Beige Dragon always amused me. According to the MM, he actually comes out to a CR 12 with the template on top, but all it really gives him is some stat boosts and a cone of cold 1/day. If anyone thinks he needs downsizing feel free to speak up.

With Tyragun I'm undecided. I statted up a CR 10 Ethereal Dragon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=235805), but I'd only have half a chromatic dragon to fight the party with if I used that. They might also be completely baffled by a dragon that can go ethereal 3/day and hit them with a breath weapon on another plane. I'd also have to rework the five talking heads thing, but that's not hard.

Wyrmlords:

Wyrmlord Koth (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=213581) is a Wizard focused on debuffing. His strategy is to go invisible and cast as many non-direct damage spells as possible before he has to hit anyone. If cornered, he'd try to escape. Like any good batman wizard he has prepared for the possibility of being captured with several escape spells on his Spell Mastery feat.

Wyrmlord Saarvith (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=214196) is a Martial Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger) with Fax's Falling Star Discipline (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Falling_Star_Discipline). He's meant to hop on Regiarix and rain arrows down on the party while airborne.

I should also note that the last three Wyrmlords each have one flaw. At that level I figured that unique NPCs deserved the extra feat to rival my party. I give PCs 1 flaw and 1 trait.

Ulwai Stormcaller (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=214294) is a sunscorched Hobgoblin Bard. Her strategy is to go invisible, pump her inspire courage, then belt out Dragonfire Inspriration so her allies hit enemies with +4d6 electrical damage.

Wyrmlord Hravek Kharn (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=214506) is a Cleric/Ordained Champion. There's not much to his strategy other than buff and smash.

High Wyrmlord Azarr Kul (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=215247) is a Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator. He makes liberal use of Divine Meta Magic to pile big buffs on himself and rip and tear in combat. His build could also be adapted for Kharn and vice versa if you prefer. This version of Azarr Kul assumes that his father is an Ethereal Dragon (like above), but the only difference is what energy his cone uses and what he's immune to.

From Endarire, a, shall we say, more challenging Aspect of Tiamat :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: It’s Right Here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a-35IsF7PEYm7NAvdEjf6b_MKFdiC-nb/edit)

Other miscellaneous but handy links, lists, etc

List of all Spawn of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423959-Index-of-Spawn-of-Tiamat), to vary up those encountered in the campaign.
A Work-In-Progress attempting to turn Elsir Vale into a solid adventure path for 5e (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?445106-Living-Elsir-Vale-Red-Hand-of-Doom-Feedback-Requested). May be of use to those who want to hang out in Elsir Vale ahead of or after their adventuring careers.

Couple of links I did manage to salvage from the WOTC Archive and which still work:

All maps in RHOD with secret doors removed: http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844791@N00/

RHOD Errata!
Mostly stolen from ENWorld, there appear to be the following mistakes on the RHOD text, which were never corrected by official errata of any kind:

p. 113, Wyrmlord Hravek Kharn, male hobgoblin Favored Soul 6/Talon of Tiamat 4: Dexterity should be 10, not 8. Hobgoblins receive a racial stat of +2 DEX which doesn’t appear to have been incorporated into the base stat array, raising the modifier to +0, not -1. REF save should be +8 (+5 Favored Soul, +1 Talon of Tiamat, +2 Cloak of Resistance, +0 DEX). His AC and flat-footed AC should be 25 (10 +10 (Red Dragoncraft Full Plate +2) +4 (Heavy Steel Shield +2) +0 [DEX] +1 (Ring of Protection +1)). His Touch AC should be 11 (10 +1 (Ring of Protection +1) +0 [DEX]). Listen and Spot are listed as being +1 on the "Senses" line, but under "Skills" they're not listed at all, so presumably he has no ranks in either; however, with a Wisdom score of 10, they should be at +0 each, not +1.

pp. 113-114, Wyrmlord Saarvith, male goblin ranger 7: +1 longbow damage should be 1d6+1/×3, not 1d6+1/19-20.

p. 114, Eagle Animal Companion: Touch AC should be 14, not 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex). Flat-footed AC should be 14, not 13 (+1 size, +3 natural). Talon attacks should be at +6 melee, not +7 (+2 BAB, +1 size, +3 Dex with Weapon Finesse). Bite attacks should be at +1 melee, not +2 (+2 BAB, +1 size, +3 Dex with Weapon Finesse, -5 for secondary attack).

pp. 114-115, Varanthian, female half-fiend behir: Rake attacks should be at +17 melee, not +15 (+9 BAB, -2 size, +10 Str). AC of gizzard (when PC is swallowed whole) should be 16, not 15 (10 + half of the creature's natural armor; behir has +11 natural armor, and half-fiend adds +1 natural armor, so 10 + [.5 × 12] = 16).

p. 115, Abithriax, male juvenile red dragon: Fort should be +15, not +11 (+10 as a 16-HD dragon, +5 Con). Ref should be +10, not +8 (+10 as a 16-HD dragon, +0 Dex). Will should be +12, not +8 (+10 as a 16-HD dragon, +2 Wis).

p. 117, Blood Ghost Berserker, bugbear barbarian 2: When raging, flat-footed AC should be 16, not 14 (due to uncanny dodge). When not raging, flat-footed AC should be 18, not 16 (due to uncanny dodge).

p. 118 Doom Fist Monk, hobgoblin monk 4: Masterwork light crossbow damage should be 1d8/19-20, not just 1d8. Should have either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat instead of either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist (he should get only one of these last two as a 1st-level monk, and then one of the first two feats as a 2nd-level monk).

pp. 118-119, Doom Hand Warpriest, hobgoblin cleric 7/warpriest 1: Under "Senses," Listen and Spot should each be "+3" instead of "+3x".

p. 121, Ghost Brute Lion: Strength should be "21 (ethereal only) or ?" (since he'll use his Strength modifier when attacking ethereal foes). Blood Curdling Roar doesn't give a Will save DC; it should be DC 14.

pp. 121-122, Ghost Dire Lion: Will should be +8, not +4 (+6 as a 8-HD dire animal (since dire animals have all Good saves), +0 Wis, +2 Iron Will).

p. 122, Lesser Bonedrinker: Ref should be +4, not +6 (+2 as a 7-HD undead, +2 Dex). Tentacle attacks should be at +7 melee, not +6 (+3 BAB, +1 size, +3 Str). Claw attacks should be at +2 melee, not +1 (+3 BAB, +1 size, +3 Str, -5 for secondary attack).

p. 123, Old Warklegnaw, venerable male forest giant: Greatclub attacks should be at +12 melee, not +15 (+9 BAB, -2 size, +5 current Str). Rock attacks should be at +6 ranged, not +7 (+9 BAB, -2 size, -2 Dex, +1 racial bonus), or +4/+4 ranged with Rapid Shot, not +5/+5.

p. 123, Killiar Arrowswift, male wild elf ranger 4: +1 longbow damage should be 1d8+1/×3, not 1d8/×3 (+1 magic weapon bonus).

pp. 123-124, Trellara Nightshadow, female wild elf bard 4: Masterwork longbow damage should be 1d8-1/×3, not 1d8/×3 (-1 Str).

p. 125, Crimson Tiger Thug, human rogue 4: Flat-footed AC should be 18, not 16 (due to uncanny dodge).

...And that's all ... again ... take it away guys!

Saintheart

2022-04-20, 08:55 AM

Remixing RHOD

And to launch this new edition of the RHOD Handbook, here's my first big old slab of thoughts for tinkering with RHOD.

For a full introduction to the mindset and assumptions behind the following post, I encourage DMs to have a read of two or three webpages first:
- MDA: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research (https://users.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf#:~:text=MDA%20is%20a%20formal%20approach%2 0to%20understanding%20games,broad%20class%20of%20g ame%20designs%20and%20game%20artifacts.).
- Eight Kinds of Fun, by Angry GM, here (https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/) and here (https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-2-getting-engaged/).
- Jaquaying the Dungeon, Part 1 here (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon), but the whole series is worth reading.

Indeed I encourage DMs who aren’t familiar with these ideas to read these pages even if you don’t read anything that follows.

Now, I know you likely won’t have read any of that stuff, so let me try and imperfectly summarise the salient points from those pages.

Rubbish Summary of Assumptions:
Adventure modules are to RPG systems as software to hardware. D&D 3.5 is the ruleset, the roleplaying game is the adventure itself. Typically, when playing games, we're in pursuit – consciously/unconsciously – of one or more kinds of enjoyment/fun/pleasure.

MDA theory, puts forward 8 different kinds, summarised by the Angry GM as follows:

Sensation: The fun of having your senses stimulated.
Fantasy: The fun of losing yourself in an imaginary world and being something you’re not.
Narrative: The fun of experiencing a well-told story.
Challenge: The fun of overcoming obstacles.
Fellowship: The fun of interacting with others and working together.
Discovery: The fun of exploring and uncovering things.
Expression: The fun of leaving your personal mark on the world.
Submission: The fun of turning your brain off and doing effortless things.

Of course, (a) different people enjoy different things in different measures (shock horror) and (b) different people sometimes/often don’t know what kind of fun they’re looking for.

MDA theory holds that “fun” is found by interaction with a game’s aesthetics, which are dictated by the game’s dynamics, which are dictated by the game’s mechanics. So if we want to help a player have fun, we need to know the type of fun we’re trying to deliver, the aesthetic that delivers that, the game dynamics that create the aesthetic, and the mechanics that create the dynamics.

We try to divine what our players enjoy in an adventure, then work out the dynamics (and therefore the mechanics) that best deliver that type of enjoyment to them.

If our players enjoy narratives, we (possibly) lean on backstory and perhaps a more linear, three-act-ish adventure which adheres to worldbuilding. Railroad tracks may be more tolerable in this case.

If our players enjoy fantasy, we de-emphasise mechanics and work in well-built settings where we can easily produce answers to questions about how a world works.

If our players enjoy challenge, we lean on hard crunch, RAW, and tough combat encounters.

If our players enjoy fellowship (i.e. company and interacting among themselves) we lean on cooperative encounters and go easier on OOC discussion, since the players are here for the company as much as the game.

And since people often enjoy more than one thing at a time, we endeavour to provide a balanced mix of one or more of these.

Moving on to Jaquaying now.

‘Jaquaying’ is a concept named after the early D&D module (and, later, CounterStrike, and Quake and Halo Wars level) designer Jennell Jaquays. Ms. Jaquays excelled at non-linear dungeon (and level) design. Which is to say: she was appallingly good at designing the opposite of the stereotypical “railroad” dungeon where there’s only one meaningful path in or out of the dark and musty place you and your three propellerhead colleagues insist on walking into looking for trouble.

There’s a raft of techniques for design falling under this one verb, from multiple entrances and exits to multiple looping paths between areas. It’s too many to get into here. The overall intent of Jaquaying is to deliver a complex and dynamic dungeon environment, where the party’s chosen approach to the dungeon changes how they experience that dungeon. Going into different areas at different points recontextualise the dungeon and provide an experience unique to the party.

A way of illustrating the point visually: draw a circle, and mark a point on the perimeter, ‘A’. Starting at point A, how many paths can be taken via a drawn line in the circle which get back to point ‘A’? Two: follow the perimeter clockwise or anticlockwise. (Technically 3, if your journey has 0 distance.)

Now draw a diameter through the circle. How many individual paths can be taken along a drawn line in that circle to get back to point A?

Now add a point B to anywhere in that circle, on the perimeter or on the diameter. How many individual paths can be taken along a drawn line in that circle to go through point A, point B, and back to point A?
Go ahead, count them up, I’ll make myself a coffee in the meantime. You could be here a while.

That’s the point of non-linear design: it delivers a ton more choice for relatively little investment. And choice is the coin of the RPG: not the stats, not the CRs, not the second rate amateur drama (IC or OOG) … it is meaningful choice that is the engine of a roleplaying adventure.

A simple example, one I mean to use on RHOD later: suppose a dungeon with three basic “zones”: one controlled by faction X, one controlled by faction Y, and a midground contested by both. Assume two entrances to the dungeon: one in faction X’s area, one in faction Y’s.

Immediately there are three different, obvious experiences a party can have in the dungeon:
(1) enter at either doorway and mow through everyone regardless of which faction they’re in to the other entrance/exit;
(2) enter through faction X’s area, ally with them, and assault faction Y, and thus on to the exit;
(3) enter through faction Y’s area, ally with them, and stomp faction X’s face into the curb, and on to the exit.

(And there’s at least several other experiences: enter at faction Y, ally with faction Y, exit the dungeon and go through faction X’s entrance and stab faction X in the back. And so on.)

All it took to create this set of unique experiences in the one place was to add a second entrance and two factions.

(This is not to say, against what seems to be the default OSR assumption, that adding choices is always superior. Jaquaying, and to a lesser extent OSR philosophy, strikes me as appealing to certain kinds of fun: Discovery and Challenge in the main, with Narrative, Expression, and Fantasy as distant seconds. But different kinds of fun appeal to different people. Easiest way of illustrating this? Players making like Buridan’s Ass when put in an open world game. Yes, insufficient information creates this problem, but even then – some people are just in it for the story, friendship, beer, and pretzels (Narrative, Fellowship, and Submission). Which is a longwinded way of saying: Jaquaying ain’t for every dungeon and it ain’t for everyone).

Now, where this starts to get interesting is that the concept of nonlinear dungeon design doesn’t have to be confined to dungeons. It can be applied to adventures, because, to steal off Angry GM, every adventure is a dungeon. (https://theangrygm.com/every-adventures-a-dungeon/)

Dungeons ultimately come down to entrance/exit points, transition areas (passages), and encounter areas (rooms.)

Adventures ultimately come down to introductions, transits between scenes, scenes in which encounters happen, and then to transits to the next scene.
Transits between scenes, like passageways between encounter areas, don’t have to be in one direction.

Just what the hell are you on about and what does this have to do with RHOD?
Bear with me for one more long preface: what I’m proposing is to slightly remix, or hack, or whatever, the structure of Red Hand of Doom using a couple of Jaquaying techniques. But before I do so, we need to understand the software we are working with. Red Hand of Doom is a great adventure, but we need to analyse why that’s so. And tell ourselves some home truths about it.

When you get right down to it, RHOD has a highly linear structure. It has limited elements of “open world”, “free choice” adventure in it, but in reality a party has to swim pretty hard against the tide to get through the major areas other than via the ‘expected’ way: Vraath Keep -> Skull Gorge -> Rhest -> Ghostlord -> Battle of Brindol -> Fane of Tiamat. After Drellin’s Ferry falls, players are pointed almost directly at Rhest, and if they skip that area entirely, the only way players can cotton onto the Ghostlord’s existence is via one word on Koth’s map from Vraath Keep. And if they do realise he exists outside the default sequence -- say at Drellin’s Ferry by asking a local about the phrase -- it takes a sidetrip over to Brindol to search through its bookshops and merchants for a map pointing to the stone lion’s location.

We can also see this intended structure in the CRs of the various encounter areas – basically ramping up as the party gains levels and goes from one place to the next – and most obviously in the structure of the book itself, which encourages the party to pursue the intended default course.

How do I know all this?

Because the authors said so. While out spruiking RHOD during its initial release, in an interview that’s still available on WOTC, Rich Baker was explicit about it:

My initial vision for the adventure was to take my best swing at a challenge that comes up in countless fantasy novels: the Army of Evil is trying to conquer everything. A lot of adventures use an orc horde as backdrop and motivation, but then make the heroes go off and do ‘standard’ dungeon-delving to find the McGufin that will then defeat the horde. I wanted to create an adventure that cast the heroes in the role of “captains of good”, doing things that directly affected the course of the war. So, the heroes face crucial tests in rallying allies, helping the local rulers to determine strategy, spying on the Red Hand horde and scouting its movements, and directly confronting the bad guys on the battlefield. Some of that involves good old-fashioned dungeon-delving, but a lot of the adventure takes the heroes back and forth across the landscape, doing a hundred different things to stop the Red Hand march.

This is not a set of criticisms, but a series of observations. It allows us to better define what, if any, changes we might want to make. Structured as is, designed to deliver the types of fun it does, RHOD works well for specific kinds of enjoyment. It delivers Narrative and Challenge in spades, Fantasy in medium amounts. Its story is clear, easy to understand and visualise – “stop the approaching army, you’re on the clock and so are they” – and serves up a variety of encounters and locales with decent tactical challenges.

(It also delivers Discovery. In small doses. The area that most feels like an ‘open world’, or dynamic adventure site, is the Witchwood in Part 1. Drellin’s Ferry is your ‘exploration hub’, you can traipse around the Witchwood all you like, choose different paths to Vraath Keep and/or Skull Gorge, and indeed visit them in different orders if you wish.

Certain areas also have dynamic elements. Vraath Keep can be assaulted from at least two entrances: the front gate or the hole in the wall. Sounds minor, but remember what we can do with two entrances to a dungeon, above. Rhest can be tackled underwater or over the surface, by frontal assault or delaying one’s attack until Regiarix and Saarvith are away, by taking the Town Hall first or the Bell Tower first. The stone lion has two entrances, meaning either the Ghostlord or Ulwai can be confronted first. These differences in potential approach deliver part of the fun. They trigger players’ Discovery, Expression, and Challenge buttons. Indeed, I would argue the main problem with the Fane of Tiamat, what makes it a rubbish dungeon, is that of all the dungeons in the game, it doesn’t have a dynamic structure. But I digress and I will come back to the Fane in a separate post.)

When we look at the game through that lens – what types of fun were emphasised, what types had to be compromised – we can see more clearly why tradeoffs were made. And know what damage we’re going to do with our hacks. (And we will do damage. Why do you think they call it ‘hacking’?)

The biggest compromise was a consequence of the ‘countdown to destruction’, the slow advance of the Red Hand across the landscape. This is the primary narrative hook of the campaign. The designers wanted a big, climactic battle in which the players’ actions across the campaign influenced the outcome of that battle and the war. The closer the Red Hand gets to Brindol, the closer you come to failing in your Big Damn Heroes moment which is really the whole point of RHOD.

To cater to this type of fun – Narrative and Challenge, turned up to 11— they had to turn the volume down on Discovery and Expression, which is to say, non-curated exploration. The arch-enemy of exploration isn’t dwindling resources, it’s time. And in RHOD, the whole campaign is constrained by time. If you’re in the middle of an action-suspense movie, there’s not really the room for characters to say ‘Hey, what’s over that hill? It won’t matter that much if we lose two days down an unexpected deep pit with the Red Hand three days from the gates of Brindol.’

I think that’s why the smaller towns and villages of Elsir Vale get statblocks and brief written sketches, but not much is made of any location except for Drellin’s Ferry and Brindol. It’s not just reasons of space – exploration was probably thought to take away from what the authors had chosen as the main drive of the campaign. So the authors compromised: they left the tools there if DMs needed to flesh out an area on the fly, but they weren’t going to draw attention to it.

Just as significant is the second biggest compromising element – the narrative sequence of RHOD. The authors had you get around to three major encounter areas and then fight the Battle of Brindol. The authors clearly believed the party’s level would have a massive impact on clearing any given encounter area, so they mapped out the sequence of encounters and encounter difficulty accordingly. Hence why the CRs creep slowly upward as you move from Vraath Keep to Rhest to the Ghostlord to the Battle of Brindol. They envisioned a linear campaign, envisioned the party actually getting to Brindol to have its Big Damn Heroes moment, which meant the difficulty of encounters had to be governed accordingly.

Please, Garyx, Io, all the hundred existing gods of Faerun and the uncertain ones of Eberron, get to the point, Saint…
If we want to make RHOD into a more nonlinear adventure, make it more ‘explorable’, make it a more unique experience for any given party that plays it, while still getting the experience of being ‘captains of good’ running around impacting the course of the war – then we now know some things we have to watch for. We must consider the time limit the adventure’s on and the fact there’s an intended sequence of events reflected in a concrete set of CR ratings. Fixing all of them will involve compromises.

These changes may or may not be a good thing. This is why there’s such a massive preface. What I’m proposing is not “essential”, or a “necessary fix”, or “tried and true”, or “best practice”. It is hacking the game, interfering with the basic structure of RHOD to see if a good adventure can be made any better by breaking the ‘railroad’. My suspicion is that it will – for the right party. But if you’re going to adopt any of the stuff I have in mind, take all of what’s said above and proceed with caution. Because they don’t pay me for this stuff.

All right. Get on with it.
In summary: we bring the Fane of Tiamat into play earlier and add more plot-based connectors between the different areas. Where previously you’d have to stretch hard to get the party to the Ghostlord or the Fane ahead of time, they are now all but freely available from the start. We also add consequences for how different areas react to developments in the different regions. And finally, we consider our encounter difficulty with this new structure.

Where previously the players followed a predefined event sequence, the sequence is now fluid. We now have a structure where the players can, if they wish, go first to the Fane of Tiamat and then the Ghostlord area and then Rhest if they want, ending up at Brindol after all of these areas are played out. Or they can retain the default sequence. Or most other combinations in between. That is … they can have a unique experience with RHOD.

It still channels back to Brindol, of course. This can’t, and shouldn’t, be avoided -- because we want to retain the Battle and the big confrontation in there; the adventure ultimately is about stopping the Red Hand. This design retains the shadow of a narrative structure, but also explicitly does what a lot of DMs intuitively do: make the Battle of Brindol the climax and end of the adventure. The Fane of Tiamat remains in this structure, but it is ‘relegated’ to become another adventure site like Rhest or the Ghostlord’s lair.

Narrative changes to the module
Drellin’s Ferry:
-- De-emphasise or flat-out don’t mention the possibility of evacuation. The module as written makes standing and fighting equate with stupidity; the option is cleverly associated in the players’ minds with an unsympathetic NPC, Iormel.
-- If it’s mentioned at all, evacuation now becomes the option Iormel supports, and standing becomes the option most of the Council supports.
-- The preferred method of defending Drellin’s Ferry becomes guerrilla warfare in the Witchwood while they wait for reinforcements from Brindol – “we know that country well, better than any miserable hobgoblin, it’ll give us time for help to arrive from Brindol”, etc.
-- There’s more information directly available at Drellin’s Ferry about the story of the Ghostlord. Once the party raids Vraath Keep, they’ll likely come asking questions about him even if they know the location of the lair. The information source for more about the Ghostlord strikes me best to be Avarthel, keeper of the druid circle at Drellin’s Ferry. The Ghostlord being a blighter, and therefore an ex-druid, is a tale of caution and seduction by dark forces, known and spoken in whispers among druids. The ones in Elsir Vale allow inaccurate legends of the Ghostlord to proliferate because it keeps people from inquiring into a very dangerous monster, and therefore keeps the people safe. How much of the actual story you want to tell them is for DM discretion, but something might be made of the fact the Ghostlord’s been dormant for hundreds of years, rejecting all visitors to the Thornwaste, and the Red Hand must have something to do with it if he’s now suddenly interested in working with them in anyway.

The change in defence methods doesn’t mean the Ferry can be saved. It just slows the Red Hand down somewhat. Fighting in the Witchwood delays the fall of Drellin’s Ferry about 7 more days but it becomes apparent fairly quickly that guerrilla tactics simply won’t work against a force of the Red Hand’s size, and the decision is eventually made to evacuate, deciding the only way to beat the Red Hand is to fight a pitched battle at Brindol. Better yet, the plot could be twisted when the Ferry decides to hold, but later is told no help is coming from Brindol because Jarmaath knows that a good wall is the best place to fight the army. This allows our hub to shift from Drellin’s Ferry to Brindol.

I do this because I think Drellin’s Ferry has to be a crossroads for the players for longer under this model. Three of our main adventuring locations – Vraath Keep, the Ghostlord’s lair and the Fane of Tiamat – are in the western end of Elsir Vale, and distances between encounter areas matter when players are deciding what to choose to visit in an ‘open world’ environment. Having a friendly stopping point roughly equidistant from them encourages the players to stay here for longer than they normally would. It also makes an earlier side trip to the Hammerfist Holds more plausible, if we’re minded to build out that section of the campaign. If the players have a reliable method of getting around faster, this change might not be needed.

It also has the advantage of not wasting all the significant NPCs that we meet early in the adventure, and making us care a bit more about them.

Vraath Keep:
Changes to the information are all that’s needed.
-- Koth’s notes have more details:
--- The location of the Ghostlord’s lair, Rhest, and the Fane of Tiamat are contained within, though there are still no notes on who or what the Ghostlord is.
--- Wyrmlords are described as normal but are vague on the assignments and locations of Kharn and Azarr Kul. (This is because Kharn becomes the major-domo and guardian of the Fane, and Azarr Kul will be travelling with the Red Hand army itself, allowing him to become the final boss at Brindol.)
--- The notes say each of the dragons has a token that opens the front door of the Fane of Tiamat. This is important because otherwise there’s no ‘safe’ way into the mountain other than the password, which only Ulwai (and any other random passerby in the Wyrmsmoke Mountains) knows. Telling the players the dragons have a token to open an area of the map encourages them to go dragon-hunting and look for dragon hoards, as well as playing up the significance of the Fane.
--- The Fane of Tiamat is described as a significant spiritual support for the Red Hand: agents of the Red Hand are working on creating a breach between planes, to Avernus, to make their clerics (and Azarr Kul) more powerful via the direct connection to their goddess. If the portal is completed it’ll make their clerics stronger, so destroying it is a significant goal to pursue.

These changes are mainly required to open up the availability of adventure locations. We want people to make choices about which areas to visit and when. NPCs could speculate that the Keep might make for a useful forward command post for anyone who wanted to conduct guerrilla operations in the Witchwood, which might prompt a return visit or two, but once knocked over the Keep isn’t intended as a major site to return to.

Rhest and the Ghostlord’s lair:
These shouldn’t need substantial changes except for general CR adjustments further below, and recapitulating the locations of the Fane, Rhest, and the Ghostlord’s lair as appropriate.

If the PCs visit the Ghostlord before they visit Rhest, the only change needed is that the Ghostlord is more inquisitive about the people who’ve kicked over his enemies in the place, and the Ghostlord makes the offer of breaking his alliance with the Red Hand if his phylactery is recovered and returned. He knows where it last was – the drowned city of Rhest – but not much more beyond that. This puts a greater time pressure on the PCs because they have to get there and back, or alternatively the Ghostlord could give the party a one-use teleport item (rune, wand, single-charge staff, whatever) to get them back to the lair fast. Also in this case, the Ghostlord can be clear that he’ll continue supporting the Red Hand unless the phylactery comes back – he’s happy to devastate Brindol and the rest of the Vale.

The Fane of Tiamat:
This needs the most significant changes since we’re turning it from an end-of-adventure dungeon to a site able to be visited freely. Separate from the CR changes to the opposition, the following alterations need to be made:
- Kharn is now the level boss, not Azarr Kul. Otherwise details remain much the same.
- Any dragons defeated but not killed are here as well per the original rules. Otherwise they’re in their original locations.
- Eliminate the Aspect of Tiamat.
- The time scale for the opening of the portal to Avernus should be changed to become similar to that of the Red Hand on the march, e.g. completed around the point where the Red Hand army is about three quarters of the way to Brindol. As set out below, the purpose of the portal is now to provide spiritual strength (i.e. a caster level or two) to the Red Hand's clerics, rather than being any sort of effort to open a doorway to Avernus as it was in the original module. (Alternatively, fiat it that this portal is actually complete but needs clerics and/or Kharn around to maintain it. Killing Kharn means the portal collapses which weakens Red Hand clerics from there on in.)
- The Fane contains additional intelligence on the Red Hand’s plans in the other adventure locations, i.e. details that greenspawn razorfiends are being bred over in Rhest and the Ghostlord’s ‘assistance’ is being sought in his lair, with both locations identified. Again, the idea is that we make the other locations able to be visited.
- Kharn is the boss overseeing the Fane’s purpose. He doesn’t surrender but if by some chance is captured alive, then at high DCs he might be convinced to indicate Azarr Kul is with the Red Hand army as it heads for Brindol.

Consequences of assaults
Leaving these alterations to one side, players should be noticing – or have drawn to their attention – differences in how things play out in the wider campaign as a result of going after one place versus another. There are, however, way too many potential combinations for me to comprehensively fit out how a DM might address these in the campaign. Some suggestions, however:

- While the Fane is operating, Red Hand clerics’ caster level if not ECL is one or two levels higher. After it’s knocked out, not so much.
- Hunting parties pursuing the PCs out of areas they’ve visited refer to the destruction the PCs have wreaked thus far.
- Random encounter chances alter when the party’s finished out an area – no more Red Hand patrols from that district, or maybe Red Hand patrols between that area and the Red Hand’s current position are neutralised (since the area isn’t supplying troops anymore).
- Red Hand army position slows based on party’s assault on one or more areas (they were waiting for troops from that area who never showed up).

Otherwise the consequences of dealing with these areas are played out in who shows or doesn’t show at the Battle of Brindol.

CR changes:
This is probably the most complex element to consider simply because RHOD is built for a party that’s slowly getting more powerful as the levels go by, to the point where you can theoretically go with fixed level up points and lose nothing. This isn’t anywhere near as easy in a nonlinear structure for RHOD since you can’t guarantee a party is going to show up at a given adventure site when it’s “ready” to meet the EL of the opponents it’s originally meant to. And therefore how you answer this issue is going to depend on your philosophy as a DM. With consequences that flow from it.

The difference comes down to the following 2 philosophies, which are currently at war to such a point that supporters of each side have gotten to the point of insanity such that they ascribe political leanings to each other … not that we’re going to get into that rubbish here:

(1) ‘Old school’ D&D, expressed most clearly in the open world hex crawl, leans into the approach that the world is not curated to your current level, encounter difficulty is ‘as is’ and it doesn’t matter if you run into an elder red dragon based off the random encounter tables, sucks to be you and the encounter is about survival, not success. If you are getting your tail kicked, then retreat, level up a bit, and come back again later. Which is an approach that is arguably easier to incorporate into nonlinear adventures because you just set the encounters like jellies and leave them for the players to run into them and make of them what they will.

(2) ‘Narrative’ D&D, expressed maybe most clearly in, well, the default RHOD module … that the idea isn’t emergent story but to trail along with a predefined narrative assuming that your players will run into encounters that present a challenge, but are not lethal. In order to keep the players on the narrative path, there’s funnelling the story path down to a single alternative, but nowhere are the encounters clearly and visibly designed to be overwhelming to the players … at least, not without a clearly available retreat option or (as with the default Ghostlord) set up with a big, blinking sign saying ‘DO NOT ACTUALLY FIGHT THIS GUY’ over the head to tell the players exercising freedom here is actually extremely dangerous.

So which one is right for your party?

I have no idea.

But each one has consequences with this method of rebuilding RHOD.

If you take philosophy (1), then there’s less work to do. Redesigning the encounters in a nonlinear narrative is just setting up tenpins and not caring whether they’re made of plastic or plutonium. But you take a higher risk of a TPK and whining players if they don’t understand this possibility. Philosophy (1) arose in a context where characters were plentiful and easy to build and easy to replace – arguably, not so in 3.5 world with dozens of sourcebooks and people who get attached to their creations … some insanely so.

If you take philosophy (2), you’re all but required to adjust the ELs of the different encounters depending on where your players go and when. Otherwise, unless the players are very experienced, it’s a pretty hard ask for a party of level 5-6 characters to take on a dungeon that was designed to challenge level 10 characters. And if your players find out you’re doing this, some just as insane as the players in philosophy (1) accuse you of ‘invalidating their choices’ or ‘railroading’ or various other insults that really, really miss the timber for the foliage.

There isn’t much of a solution, or rather a resolution, of these philosophies in rewriting the module to nonlinear shape.

If you are minded to rework the CR of the encounter areas, though, with the above warnings, then some suggestions:
- For Rhest and the Ghostlord’s lair: as a general rule of thumb, if the party gets to Rhest later than on the default module, it’s open to you to push the CR up or leave it unaltered depending on the level of desperation/assurance you want out of the players.
- For the Fane of Tiamat:
-- If the party takes out Rhest and the Ghostlord’s lair before visiting it, it can be slightly adjusted down with hobgoblin dragon devotees/shamans/disciples/clerics in place of all the various abishai and planetouched opposition. Kharn gets adjusted to something slightly stronger than his book version but is otherwise not altered.
-- If the party goes to the Fane before either or one of Rhest and the Ghostlord’s lair, the opposition gets adjusted down to low level hobgoblins consistent with those at Rhest or the Ghostlord’s lair, with one or two major opponents. Kharn is run more or less as he appears on the book.
- The Battle of Brindol remains more or less unchanged except for Kharn being swapped out for Azarr Kul, and the battle becomes the climax of the whole campaign. Aspect of Tiamat shows up here either as Azarr’s last summoning on his defeat, or it’s what he morphs into after his mortal form takes a mortal blow. That said - you're likely getting the party after they've trashed everywhere else trashable in Elsir Vale, so if you're going to tweak the CR, this is a place to think about doing it.

Seward

2022-04-20, 12:07 PM

I've always appreciated this and its ancestor threads, back to when I first played the adventure (read afterwards of course) and the one time I ran it.

I'll just say this though for all the "here is what you do to beef up the monsters" portions of this guide.

Start with a 4 person level 5 party of whatever (doesn't have to be iconic). The adventure can be run pretty much as written if you enforce that they only level at chapter breaks, and only level 1 level (don't add up experience, award it by chapter milestones, unless the party actually fails a chapter objective, then add up what they accomplished). I guarandamntee you that 4 level 9 characters will struggle with the Aspect of Tiamat if they've blown their wad figuring out how to fight Azak Kharn in a silence-enforced room (so no command word magic items, few spells, etc) and whatever survivors of the fane have retreated there. 4 level 8 characters will have moments in the Battle of Brindol that seriously challenge them too. 4 level 7s are less likely to try to face off against the Ghostlord (any lich is a minimum EL+4 encounter, and most PCs will assume the ghostlord isn't a minimim-power lich, even if he is. Add in those corrupting-gaze lions in whatever numbers you need to make him intimidating).

I played it with 6 level 5 Living Greyhawk characters, who leveled exactly 1 level between chapters (although level loss via death tended to be made up by sneaking in other LG adventures inbetween for 1-2 characters if memory serves). My L8 character died in the climax of battle of Brindol and I just swapped in a L9 alternate character for the final chapter rather than limp into it at L7. (we'd failed to kill 2 of the dragons, so the first final chapter battle was...challenging. I was very glad I'd made that call). We felt under time pressure after initial interrogation of prisoners in the Fane and pushed hard without resting and were so tapped by the end that we fled from the Aspect of Tiamat, leaving an unrecoverable body behind.

These were veteran players with moderate optimization, if within the limits of what was allowed in Living Greyhawk for class/spell/item choices. (significantly no Tome of Battle, no MIC stuff or anything else from 2007-2008 really out yet and most of the obvious Charop abuses like DMM/Nightsticks not allowed)

For a 6 person party, the GM bumped the first 2 dragons to large, bumped some ogres to skullcrusher ogres, added an extra Greater Bhargest in Marked for Death and had the hobgoblins release the Greenspawn Razorfiend at Rhest early on (who escaped with the eggs causing Streets of Death to end in us fleeing when that wave hit). There were a few other upgrades here and there (like worg-riders and an extra Ettin in the Missing Gold, rather than 1+ordinary goblins) Otherwise he pretty much ran it straight, if with better tactics and coordination than the book suggests (which seemed reasonable as Rhod is a reasonably elite army, especially the parts PCs tend to fight).

I ran it for a four person party of Pathfinder characters pretty much straight - at L5 the extra abilities aren't as significant, although by chapter 3 you should be beefing up the opposition a bit as if they were a level higher. Mostly though I adapted tactics, not statblocks, not even spell mixes. Things like shooting mounts out from under players at every opportunity with the scrubs, focusing fire while maintaining dispersion, having leaders favor caution and hit/run and being absolutely brutal with what arcane casters I had, nearly always pulling off an ambush and often moving again before most parties could react. And exploiting action advantage at every opportunity (any RHOD soldier not killed in a single round started drinking healing potions while buddies engaged. They found that very frustrating, especially in missile duels). These again were veteran players with solid builds and itemization, but the party wasn't iconic, which sometimes was helpful and sometimes bit them in the rear.

When I look at journals, I tend to see a lot of deaths with parties played "in level" even pretty large ones. The parties that seem to need a lot of GM intervention seem to average a level or two higher than the 5-9 progression and have 5-6 party members. The extra action economy and level seem to matter more than exactly how the characters are built. Parties without significant ranged offense will be weaker than expected, even if they're brutal in close, unless the party is unusually tactical at keeping ranges close (lots of teleport magic+air walk or unusually effective at fog/illusion/similar to let them close range without being noticed or without enemies able to target them effectively).

If your Wyrmlords and Dragons flee at first significant opposition, the later chapters also get a lot more challenging. It isn't till chapter 8 that the RHOD leadership has skin in the game enough to fight to the death. People like Miha or Ulwai coordinating encounters like Bhargest Reavers or Marked for Death can also make those sorts of ambush scenarios really scary. Something our GM did in Streets of Blood was have Kharn phone in an area Dispel Magic any time the battlefield control spells interfered with the assaults (he has lots of unused spell slots, and that is a long range spell. It explains what he's doing that portion of the fight, and all he needs is a scrub spotter and he can do it from total safety out of LOF/LOE of any PC)

pabelfly

2022-04-20, 01:46 PM

Thanks for the hard work keeping this thread alive and compiled. It's inspired me to run this campaign in the future myself, using this as reference.

Elves

2022-04-20, 04:35 PM

Reposting my story tweak from a recent thread.

This is what I did when I played it and I may have posted it in Saintheart's thread. The priests of Tiamat gave every soldier a Red Hand tattoo on their hand as their initiation into the Horde. It turns out this was actually a ritual mark that contributed their soul to Azarr Kul's ritual upon their death. So the Battle of Brindol was a win/win proposition for Azarr Kul -- whether he took the town or not, he would receive the influx of power he needed to begin the ritual's final stage.

I think it's a great tweak.
- It explains why Azarr bothered marching out that land army [instead of just attacking Brindol with dragons/manticores].
- It explains why he didn't wait until the ritual was complete before commencing his invasion.
- It explains why the ritual just happens to be nearing the final stage after the Battle of Brindol.
- It makes the Red Hand motif in the title a more prominent part of the story, starting from scene 1.

It could even be seen as a calculated slaughter: his war will diminish or eradicate the hobgoblin tribes, making way for his new empire of draconic creatures.

thorr-kan

2022-04-21, 06:44 PM

Nice to see this revisited, Saintheart. It was always a pity when the first handbook fell off the front page.

I was with a group that played RHoD shortly after it came out. We had 5 PCs, not really optimized, so the module didn't need any real fix-up for us. There was warlock, a sorcerer, and I had dwarf fighter/cleric...I don't remember the rest. I remember it being a tussle, but a well-enjoyed campaign.

Highlights:
-Smashing the first few waves at Drellin's Ferry, and realizing they were just still coming. That's when we realized the magnitude of the Horde.
-Rhest: being savaged by the razorfiends; making nice to the elves, despite some players' best efforts; a sneak into the belltower turning into a running battle when we go a little fire-happy.
-Summoning 3 celestial griffons to help in the battle against Abithriax; they didn't last long, but showed me minions were a valid 3E tactic...
-Bull rushing the Fane; reconning Azarr Kul and actually buffing before a battle; it took awhile, but the fight was never really in doubt.
-Ending that session with the Aspect of Tiamat coming through; the DM saying, "To be continued..."; and me saying, "Wait. I cast Banishment." What?! DM digs around, realizes it's a valid tactic, and rolls a save. He succeeded by 2, dagnabit. Still being buffed, we dogpiled it next week and made our escape.

I *STILL* want to know if anybody ever made a last stand at Drellin's Ferry or gamed out an optimized party versus the horde at that point.

RSGA

2022-04-23, 11:38 PM

So, this is a bit of a random thought while re-reading the handbook, but has anyone proposed replacing Koth's vacant familiar with the Divine Companion ACF from Complete Champion? It's a more light weight change than Spell Shield, lasts 6 turns (if you don't Practiced Spellcaster his CL), gives +6 deflection and +6 resistance (ditto), should be chargeable off a wand, and gives a metaphysical connection to Tiamat for the lowly bugbear sorcerer.

It also gives him a self-heal, but that's probably less important given the scale and nature of the fight.

Saintheart

2022-04-23, 11:46 PM

Building out the Hammerfist Holds

Introduction
Everyone wants more adventures out of the Hammerfist Holds, virtually nobody does it. I'm going to try and redress that.

Caveat: this'll be more of a broad structure, not a full mechanical buildout ... unless someone really wants it. I want to keep new material at a minimum. More material means the DM's job gets even harder. Also, I wanted to keep the scale of the sidequest low so it doesn't overshadow the default sections of the adventure. The solution to me seems to be, rather than start interpolating drow or other involved parties, to make more of Miha Serani, who otherwise isn't used a lot in RHOD generally. I'm also aiming at avoiding long plot or narrative sequences since the idea's to give the players a problem/situation to interact with and come up with solutions for it, not specify a railroad as such. Below is what I've come up with so far.

Background:
The 'statblock' of the Hammerfist Holds as a whole is on page 10-11 of RHOD. Half a dozen dwarf clanholds, each a hamlet or village, taken together their authority figure is Othrek Hammerfist, a dwarf fighter 8, and a cleric 7 (Thaardin Ironhand), bard 8 (Uldrina Flamehair), and a dwarf rogue 5 (Derra Copperfist) as the important people in the place.

Othrek's elite guards are 1 x fighter 6, 6 x fighter 4, 17 x fighter 3, 22 x fighter 2, 26 x fighter 1. Also, the Holds can put together a militia of 2 x cleric 4s, 5 x cleric 3s, 16 x cleric 1s, 55 x warrior 3s, 105 x warrior 2s, 240 x warrior 1s.

The Holds are not identical with the Shining Axes. The Axes are a mercenary company 200 strong led by a Captain Ervath Helmbreaker who apparently is contactable in the Hammerfirst Holds. So it's not clear whether they're actually part of the Holds, or passing through, or what.

So the Hammerfist Holds and the Shining Axes could add a total of about 650 troops to the Vale's defences if they threw everything at Brindol. Not to mention that clerics and bards at those levels are thin on the ground in Brindol. It can be assumed the Red Hand knows full well the dwarves are a threat to their plans of conquest. Unlike the Tiri Kitor in the marsh, dwarves loves to kill giants, goblins, and hobgoblins and can march straight overland to assault the Red Hand's flank. The Red Hand also presumably knows it'd cost a fair amount of time and resources to assault the Holds directly and remove the dwarves, since the dwarves remain miners and have very solid defences just by retreating underground (if indeed the Holds aren't already underground).

Hooks for the players out of RHOD drawing them to the Holds:

Alter the Mercenary Gold encounter to become Jarmaath offering generous diplomatic terms to Clan Hammerfist if it assists in the defence of Brindol, i.e. calling out the whole clan.

Alter the Mercenary Gold encounter as a request from Jarmaath: "since Othrek Hammerfist's clan has rebuked all my offers, without explanation, to join this fight, I beg you, Ervath, here's 6,000 gold, please bring the Shining Axes here. I wish Othrek were with you or if you could intercede with him on my behalf."

Players have it indicated by Norro, or Jarmaath, or Morlin Coalhewer, that the dwarven clans should be brought into the fight.

The Problem/Situation:
Azarr Kul has neutralised the dwarven threat via Miha Serani, the aranea sorceress who's their master spy in the Vale. Miha is a member of a colony of araneas in the Wyvernwatch Mountains. Her people have been enemies of the dwarves for centuries, but the Hammerfist clan had driven them back deep into the mountains. The colony remained in hiding there, until Azarr Kul, guided by Miha Serani and Tiamat's insights, contacted them.

Skather, the Red Hand's master assassin, helped the aranea colony kidnap Othrek Hammerfist, the leader of the Holds, and brought him to the colony. The araneas have imprisoned Othrek. He's unconscious, in stasis, close to death, cocooned in their webs. The Red Hand made a simple deal with Clan Hammerfist: stay out of the war, make no attempt to defend Elsir Vale, and Othrek Hammerfist will live, as well as the Holds remaining untouched Without their leader, and with no immediate successor able to influence the clans otherwise, the clans have been paralysed with inaction.

Othrek is imprisoned in an abandoned dwarven fort on the southern edge of the Holds, in a position where the araneas can keep watch over the Holds and check for any signs of mobilisation. The araneas have a number of spider monsters to protect the abducted dwarven leader - phase spiders, tomb spiders, as you please. The place is also trapped heavily and festooned with webs that convey warning of intruders to the aranea colony. Worst of all, Azarr Kul has placed a contingent Death Knell spell cued to fire against Othrek Hammerfist if a dwarf sets foot in the fort, meaning the dwarves of Clan Hammerfist can't assault the place to get their ruler back.

There's division among the dwarves about whether Othrek Hammerfist should be rescued.

The Cleric 7 doesn't like the situation but thinks it's too risky for the Hammerfist Clan to attempt any sort of rescue effort.

The Rogue 5 sees this as his best opportunity to rise above Othrek's sclerotic leadership and bring the dwarves back to greatness, so he'll ask the party to ensure Othrek dies, and bring back proof, and he'll ensure the Hammerfist Clan goes to war (the drawback being that the Shining Axes don't trust him and so will refuse to defend Brindol, preferring to stay and defend the Holds).

The Bard 8 is all for a direct assault for the pride of Clan Hammerfist even if it risks Othrek's life and the lives of many dwarves taking the place back. So the players have several different ways they could handle the approach and the outcome of the sidequest.

If Othrek is rescued, he'll commit the whole clan to war. Naturally. And command the Shining Axes to assist, which they'll accede to.

Or the players can just hire Ervath Helmbreaker as the leader of the Shining Axes and leave it at that, meaning the Holds stay out of the war and the mercenaries only come to Brindol's defence.

Rough setup and opposition:

Find a simple ruins/crypt map, ideally with a couple of different entrances or modes of assaulting the place (e.g. by air, underground, secret doorways). The dwarves can't attack the place but know its layout enough to suggest entry paths, though they won't have much idea about what the araneas' defences are like.

The "Level boss" of the ruin is actually three araneas (Miha's sisters) working as a unit: one set up martial as a swordsage, one set up as a Warshaper, one set up as a better sorcerer emphasising cold magic (take Metamagic Specialist, araneas have a massive INT score that allows lots of uses of the ability). Or more conventional araneas and have a Spawn of Tiamat buttressing them, e.g. a Blackspawn Stalker which is quite literally a dragon/spider crossbreed.

Rest of the place is spider-based: Tomb Spiders, Phase Spiders, Spider Swarms

Place is trapped with a heavy focus on Poison, Web traps, and lots of spidersilk strands letting the monsters know the PCs have arrived or are in given areas of the dungeon.

Idea is to give a couple of different approaches to the place: stealthy rogue-style assault, or direct confrontation.

What do people think of that, and does anyone want a more detailed buildout?

EDIT: I built it anyway. Here's the link to my GoogleDocs document with my build: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oURljGn6Ujef1veCrViwuiOu1tZd6w9D3VVt2LKEcqA/edit

Seward

2022-04-24, 12:02 PM

I *STILL* want to know if anybody ever made a last stand at Drellin's Ferry or gamed out an optimized party versus the horde at that point.

I have a hard time imagining 6 level 5 or 4 level 6 characters winning a standup fight at Drellin's Ferry. Leaving aside dragon, manticores and hill giants, enough arrows flying your way and the 20s will kill you, and enough hold persons aimed at you and you will roll a "1" and Kharn has enough dispel magics on tap to frustrate any attempt to defeat those numbers with just L3ish spells.

With the right kind of party you could have them whittling away at the horde's numbers all the way to Brindol, maybe assassinating some of the stronger members and being enough of a PITA to do real damage. Doing that though makes it a lot less likely you deal with Rhest and/or Ghostlord though, which means you might have Marked for Death backed by a half dozen greenspawn or ghost lions as your reward, even before the impact on Streets of Blood and whatever victory points you don't get, plus all those leaders showing up for the final confrontation. So for most parties, if you weren't able to destroy the horde as a fighting force in that time, you'll pay for it later.

Lets say though they figure out a way, and survive the various attempts to root them out, assassinate them etc, drawing in Rhest and Ghostlord resources (either the original garrisons if they do it quickly, or the greenspawn/undead troops added later if it takes them most of the horde's march to Brindol) and manage to take out enough of them to make it implausible that the horde can do much of anything to Brindol. There are after all many, many ways to do damage with hit and run tactics that never let the horde effectively use its numbers.

That could be a pretty damn fun campaign in its own right, a giant running battle of ambush, tracking, counterambush, gutting the high level leadership of the horde by getting them mad enough to hunt the players and then losing, maybe with a final triumphant L8-9ish party attacking a weakened, demoralized, mostly leaderless horde and shattering it in a gigantic climactic battle showcasing how badass the party has become.

Bonus badass points if Brindol defenders offer to help and the party goes "Nah, we got this, you'll only get hurt. Shut the gates and keep the civilians safe."

You still have Chapter 5 after all, even with that outcome, especially if you go with the "RHOD deaths are the fuel for the ritual" adjustment , with surviving leadership/dragons/etc to stiffen the resistance there if the party needs more opposition.

thorr-kan

2022-04-24, 12:27 PM

I have a hard time imagining 6 level 5 or 4 level 6 characters winning a standup fight at Drellin's Ferry. Leaving aside dragon, manticores and hill giants, enough arrows flying your way and the 20s will kill you, and enough hold persons aimed at you and you will roll a "1" and Kharn has enough dispel magics on tap to frustrate any attempt to defeat those numbers with just L3ish spells.

<SNIP! the hit-n-run campaign premise, which is a good, but separate discussion.>

I don't expect them to win. I just want to see the attempt. Somebody, somewhere, has to have tried to make a stand at Drellin's Ferry. But nobody ever reports what happened when they did. I've asked for years.

Sometimes, it's fun to play that forlorn hope, and just lay it all down without any worry about what comes after.

When we played it, we did try to make a stand at Drellin's Ferry, to cover the evacuation. And we did pretty good for awhile. But the horde just kept coming, and we started getting frustrated as players. But it was at that point that the DM impressed on us exactly what we were up against. So we put on our big-boy pants, escaped out of there, and proceeded to the rest of the module. It ended up being an epic run, and one of the high-points of that gaming group's existance.

Seward

2022-04-24, 11:53 PM

When I played and when I ran it, the party scouted Cinder Hill and was damn sure this was out of their league, so the emphasis was to get the townsfolks to stop thinking about fighting and planning to run (and in our case we didn't exactly tell them we dropped the Skull Gorge bridge in the most diplomatic way, so they weren't inclined to listen to us...and Ozzie got away so we didn't have a dragon head to drop on the table. We actually bribed them to leave, we'd been very diligent about hauling out every masterwork longsword or suit of hobgoblin chainmail, it had been piling up in a warehouse, nearly 10k in random weapons and armor and we said "you can just have that crap if you leave for Brindol with it tomorrow...use it to arm your militia or compensate the refugees, we don't care, as long as you GO"). The staff of life alone would have kept us in WBL for a couple levels so we weren't feeling poor. Later in Brindol we saw the guard captain wearing the +1 banded mail and one of the +1 shortswords from the first Maurader encounter, and her militia companions were sporting str+1 comp longbows, masterwork swords and chainmail instead of crossbows, leather and spears. Unfortunately it didn't save them from the Bluespawn wave in Streets of Blood.

My Pathfinder players had a better plan for Ozzy, and a better diplomat, so with dragon as proof and less council members irritated with them, they got the townsfolk out with less drama.

I'm trying to imagine a party choosing to fight for any reason other than trying to cover the retreat of late-leaving townsfolk....if you are covering a retreat each wave you beat off is a victory of sorts. This is a situation you are more likely to get into if the party also is discounting the magnitude of the threat.

Elder_Basilisk

2022-04-26, 12:13 PM

I'm toying with expanding the adventure in a slightly different way. I've run and played it and we followed the clues to the right path. When I ran it, I expanded a little bit on Miha Serani and the spying since the players didn't catch her initially and I expanded a little bit on running hit and run raids to slow the Red Hand's advance, but that was mostly the NPCs. When the PCs tried it, Immerstal's teleport to get behind enemy lines went off target and the PC wizard got eaten by a barghest.

But now that the adventure is done, I'm toying with the idea of running some B team adventures. The heroes of Bova went to deal with the fane of Tiamat, and the siege of Bova was lifted but while the Red Hand army was defeated, it was not annihilated and was able to reform some of their units in Tarrelton and tried to hold out while waiting for Azzar Kul to complete his ritual. The armies of the vale still had to push them back to the foul mountain dens from which they came, retake the land from them, and securely rebuild. This is the story of the soldiers and adventurers who did the work and made that happen.

Flightguy1986

2022-04-27, 02:47 PM

So I only recently got back into D&D (3.5 and Eberron in particular) after a lengthy hiatus.

RHoD has always held a special place for me ever since I first ran it as a DM many moons ago.
So I've been busy reading through the module again, as well as slowly working on adapting various NPCs and monsters both to provide a bit more of a challenge and to better fit Eberron where necessary.

I was already familiar with AslanCross' Eberron RHoD campaign journal, but in the past few days I've also found this as well as the previous handbook and I have to give massive props to both the author and all involved who have been pitching ideas and sharing experiences of their own. These handbooks have turned into amazing comprehensive resources and I will definitely be incorporating plenty of ideas into my own adaptation, even though it might be a long time before I'll be able to run it again, both due to limited free time and currently only one person in my group of friends with an interest to participate. Oh well, one can always hope, right?

DigoDragon

2022-04-28, 10:40 AM

Flightguy1986

2022-04-28, 02:36 PM

My only experience playing RHoD ended on a sour note when the lich TPK'd the party during the Wyrmlord Kharn fight.

I found the lich's section a bit confusing with motives and what we were doing, and the wyrmlord Ulwai ended up leaving with the phylactery before we reached them due to how long it took us to get to the final chamber (oops on our part). The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any other opportunities to try and take back the phylactery.

During the siege we were told Ulwai had the phylactery on them at all times, so when we reached Kharn, we concentrated on taking Ulwai down quickly so that we could get the phylactery and tell the lich to go home so he would leave the fight. However, turns out that no, Kharn had the phylactery and when we were just a blow or two from killing him, the lich saved him by raising all the bodies on the map as zombies. The staggering number of hits this army of undead managed to land make short work of the party.

I feel that if the players fail to secure the phylactery at the desert ruins, there should be a second chance somewhere. There seems like there is time enough to try, either by scouting the army as it slowly makes for the city or during the siege somewhere. If not that, then I think the players should have a way to get reliable info on who has the phylactery in the Kharn fight, because I could see many players thinking that securing the phylactery and giving it back to the lich would allow him to end his involvement in this battle.

From what I remember from when I ran RHoD (it's been over 10 years) that was probably the part of the campaign that was least clear to my players and I had to drop some pretty heavy hints bordering on metagame knowledge to get the point across during this encounter.
It's definitely one of the things I want to tackle if I run RHoD again by leaving some additional clues throughout the adventure preceding the introduction of the phylactery and/or Ghostlord, and leave an opening or two to come to an agreement of sorts for the party to return the phylactery within x amount of days for example.
Provided the party doesn't have any 'purge the undead' type of characters of course.

Flightguy1986

2022-04-28, 03:33 PM

Regarding the subject of dragons, I've been toying with the idea of adding more dragons to include all 10 species of true dragons in a RHoD campaign set in Eberron, since in Eberron metallic dragons are just as likely to have an evil alignment as chromatic dragons.
Due to the link with Tiamat I still want to include all 5 chromatic dragons and not just replace a few of them with metallic dragons though, so all the 'colors of Tiamat' will still be present in the adventure.
However, I'm not quite sure where to squeeze in 6 extra dragons in total (since a White Dragon is also missing in the adventure as written) while keeping them all relevant to the plot in one way or another and not just being there for the sake of getting a full bingo card so to speak.

Some initial thoughts:
-At first I was thinking of upping Ozyrrandion one age category to bump his size to Large to increase the challenge surrounding Skull Gorge Bridge a bit. Now I'm thinking about keeping him at medium size (though I'll still shuffle his feats and the like around to turn him into more of a strafer) and pairing him up with another medium size dragon, probably a young Copper dragon.
-Regiarix might go up one age category and size and I've rebuilt him as more of a ranged skirmisher to pair well with Wyrmlord Saarvith using mounted archery. Other than that he's staying as is.
-Abithriax might go up one age category and size as well and be rebuilt (still not sure if I want to turn him into a strafer/flyby attacker or more of a direct melee brute to fit his 'fight to the death'-attitude), but other than that he'll stay where he is in the adventure.
-Tyrgarun might get bumped up a bit and be rebuilt similar to Regiarix and Abithriax.
-Varanthian gets replaced by a Brass dragon of similar CR, probably built as a pseudo-spring-attacker abusing its burrow speed (Travel Devotion leading to whack-a-mole with dragons anyone?).

So that's 2 dragons added, but 4 more to go.

-I was thinking that perhaps I can add another guardian style dragon at the entry to the Wyrmsmoke Mountains before the party makes their way to the Fane of Tiamat proper, hopefully without it feeling forced. This is probably where I'd add the White Dragon.
-Another idea I had was to use a Bronze/Silver/Gold Dragon's Alternate Form ability to let it infiltrate in one of the settlements of Elsir Vale. My first plan for Miha Serani was to replace her with a Rakshasa agent (thanks to AslanCross' suggestions), but perhaps a dragon would work for her as well. Alternatively I could replace one of the lords of Brindol with a dragon in Alternate Form, most likely Lady Kaal.
-Lastly I might be able to use a dragon, either using Alter Self or in its natural form, in a new initial encounter that serves as a lead in or hook to get the party started with the adventure, but I'm not sure yet how I'd want to do that exactly.

Does anyone else have any thoughts or experiences regarding this subject?

Seward

2022-04-29, 12:45 AM

Ok lets see - first be aware that if you are a 4 person L5 party, even Ozzy's pretty tough. Scale the dragons up to your party's strength, they should be tough, have a good chance of getting away but a party with a good plan should put them on the defensive pretty quick, where one with no plan will probably run screaming from the first encounter and maybe lose somebody especially if properly supported (ie not lured away from its supporting minions).

That's the feel for those encounters you want. Beyond that, tune it to suit your taste. Also try to equip them with loot your party might want to use, at least for permanent items. Your suggested change to the 5 dragons (or near dragons) in the basic 5 chapters seem fine if scaled properly for those encounters.

Adding a white dragon to the final chapter's initial dragon guardians is probably a good idea if the party smoked everybody in earlier chapters, as that encounter can be otherwise underwhelming. If, however, a lot of dragons got away be careful not to TPK them by adding in another dragon (or maybe downgrade it a bit, make it younger being "Shown the ropes" by its older companions). If there is just the blue dragon, you can put in a pretty beefy white dragon and not unbalance the encounter vs most parties at that point.

Replacing Miha with a polymorphing dragon is just plain a good idea. She's a weird entry (kinda like Varanthian) so if you can find a polymorphing dragon with appropriate challenge rating, that would be cool. Again, she'll show up in the final Brindol battle if not discovered, so be a bit careful how strong you make her, to avoid overshadowing the Boss Wyrmlord.

The idea of having a good dragon or two working against Tiamat is also a pretty neat idea. That could help with the whole "how do we get the party to do the phylactery thing" or "they need a stronger pointer to Rhest to want to go there". If the party is about to TPK, having one blow their cover to rescue them should be an option but should cost victory points, or if in final chapter, something else meaningful. (Marked for Death especially can be very swingy, as can its little brother Barghest Reavers. If the party leaves a ton of Wyrmlords alive, maybe help out in the final Brindol battle, but not earlier. Likewise chasing off one of the dragons with one of the ringer dragons might help balance the Fane approach if they've left too many dragons alive)

Endarire

2022-04-29, 05:30 PM

May we have this thread reposted on the handbook board of Min Max Forum?

Saintheart

2022-04-29, 11:14 PM

May we have this thread reposted on the handbook board of Min Max Forum?

I've never been a member over there, and I don't know if I'm sufficiently hardcore to dare post it over there ;)

Happy for it to be mercilessly linked to over there if you want, though!

Endarire

2022-04-30, 03:20 AM

Saintheart

2022-04-30, 04:09 AM

You needn't be 'hardcore' - whatever that means - to post it there. Considering the size and worth of this guide, I want others to be able to easily reference it!

Thankee!

(And your signature and old RHoD guide should link to the new Red Handbook of Doom!)

I'll go and have a poke around in there and give it some thought. Updating links in my sig and the old guide (the latter of which involves a request to the Gods, er, Mods.) :)

Saintheart

2022-05-23, 08:41 AM

Well, amongst my other charging at windmills here and elsewhere, I decided notwithstanding a complete lack of actual call for it, to go and build out the Hammerfist Holds into a full side dungeon for those interested in bringing the Holds into the war and wanting to throw their players into another dungeon of similar-ish scale to Rhest and/or the Ghostlord's lair. The dungeon composes a small 'setting' block and a complex of 2 levels (15 rooms total) I designed and filled, which builds on Miha Serani's status as the Hand master spy and supposes she has a couple of sisters holding Clan Hammerfist to ransom, in effect. It sets out the ruined Holdfast of Morndrim Shadowhammer, a disgraced dwarven king who was one of the last of the great, lost dwarven realm that created Skull Gorge Bridge, and of whom Clan Hammerfist is the last withered remnant.

The build is big enough that I made a GoogleDocs document for it, which you can find here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oURljGn6Ujef1veCrViwuiOu1tZd6w9D3VVt2LKEcqA/edit?usp=sharing)

What I'd really appreciate - and I'm going to head over to the Homebrew Area to see if anyone can offer interest or thoughts there as well - is feedback or nitpicking on the dungeon, or any commentary generally you might like to offer. The formatting of the document isn't properly done yet, but any advice or thoughts you'd like to offer on this would be greatly appreciated, and will be credited when I stick this in the main handbook for later DMs' considerations. Any thoughts?

Antariuk

2022-06-21, 12:49 PM

Yo, new RHoD Handbook, this is great!

Saintheart, just an FYI, the link to my old blog no longer works since it's gone. Most of my maps can be found on ArtStation (https://www.artstation.com/myartstation/projects) and Deviantart (https://www.deviantart.com/antariuk/gallery), and I'll go and have a look at my cloud drives to find the stuff that's currently missing (like my Witchwood map remake and the PF conversion with stats for lots of critters from the first two chapters).

Saintheart

2022-06-21, 09:16 PM

Thanks Antariuk, and good to see you again! ... I will update the thread to reflect the links, and keep an eye out for if/when you have a chance to link to your PF conversion materials.

(Also I need to get back to reworking the Fane of Tiamat, right down to the map. It's next on my list of small projects.)

Satirical Bard

2022-07-05, 11:49 PM

A million thanks and the blessings of Pelor be upon you for your outstanding work on this handbook over the years Saintheart!

I am just coming up to the Battle of Brindol in my game, and I came back to take another look at your advice about that. In post #7 you summarise The Gylphstone's advice on Streamlining the Battle with a rock-paper-scissors system for deploying the dwarves/elves/mercs/Immerstal, but your link to their original post is broken, and I can't find it when I search for it in these forums. Do you know the correct(ed) link, or has it been archived and lost to the mists of time?

(I'd also ping Glyphstone, but I'm new to GITP so I don't know how to do that).

Thanks!

Saintheart

2022-07-06, 01:34 AM

You're most welcome!

The link might have broken because it's a locked thread. I'll have to fix that up. See if you can view it here:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?218881-Yet-Another-RHoD-Campaign-Journal-PF-this-time/page3&highlight=Red+Hand+of+Doom

Post #70 on that page.

Also, for those who need literary inspiration on tone, ideas, small stories, or a general feel to absorb when running the Battle of Brindol, I got a lot of value out of the novel Legend by David Gemmell, which is about a massive siege and a doomed holdout of a walled fortress against seemingly impossible odds. Gemmell's inspiration for the novel was actually his own (misdiagnosed!) battle against cancer, and the book is one of the few fantasy novels in my top five; I come back to it again and again.

Satirical Bard

2022-07-06, 01:43 AM

It did! Fabulous, thanks.

Wink182

2022-07-13, 03:31 PM

Saintheart

2022-07-13, 09:47 PM

This is an amazing resource and thank you for putting it together.

I've run this adventure once and will soon be running it for another group. I really like your idea for "jacquaying" the adventure, but I'm hung up on this point you mentioned (sorry I'm on mobile and can't figure out how to block quote it).

-The time scale for the opening of the Fane should be similar to that of the Red Hand on the march, e.g. completed around the point where the Red Hand army is about three quarters of the way to Brindol.

Does this mean the party shouldn't be able to get into the Fane immediately after finding out about it? Should Ozzy not have a key? If I'm understanding correctly, what is the reason for this?

I'm probably missing something obvious. Thanks again for this!

Thanks for that!

Your confusion is completely due to my failure at editing or rereading posts, and I'll go and fix that. What I meant to say was:

-The time scale for the opening of the portal to Avernus should be similar to that of the Red Hand on the march, e.g. completed around the point where the Red Hand army is about three quarters of the way to Brindol.

That is, the portal to Avernus that Kharn is overseeing is completed and opens - causing a boost to Red Hand priests' combat abilities, not bringing the Aspect through or indeed anything else - around three quarters of the way through the Red Hand's march on Brindol.

All other details should be okay. The Fane remains as 'visitable' as any other location under the hack.

One alternative approach, on reflection, is to say that the portal's already been completed, and just make Red Hand priests stronger from the get-go. Killing Kharn and/or destroying the portal thereby weakens the Red Hand's divine capabilities, and leaves the ticking clock in the campaign as the Red Hand's march on Brindol.

Wink182

2022-07-14, 08:42 AM

Thanks for that!

Your confusion is completely due to my failure at editing or rereading posts, and I'll go and fix that. What I meant to say was:

-The time scale for the opening of the portal to Avernus should be similar to that of the Red Hand on the march, e.g. completed around the point where the Red Hand army is about three quarters of the way to Brindol.

That is, the portal to Avernus that Kharn is overseeing is completed and opens - causing a boost to Red Hand priests' combat abilities, not bringing the Aspect through or indeed anything else - around three quarters of the way through the Red Hand's march on Brindol.

All other details should be okay. The Fane remains as 'visitable' as any other location under the hack.

One alternative approach, on reflection, is to say that the portal's already been completed, and just make Red Hand priests stronger from the get-go. Killing Kharn and/or destroying the portal thereby weakens the Red Hand's divine capabilities, and leaves the ticking clock in the campaign as the Red Hand's march on Brindol.

Ah yes that makes total sense. I really like the idea of the portal being a power source and the effects being felt once dealt with. Thanks for this!

Sir Chuckles

2022-07-15, 10:27 PM

Saintheart

2022-07-16, 01:54 AM

A quick minor question:

What books beyond core are directly mentioned in the module? I know it's mostly for Prestige Classes, but does anyone have a specific list? I'm helping someone decide what books to allow beyond core.

I know there's Frostburn, Complete Divine, Draconomicon, and Complete Arcane, mostly for a handful of prestige classes and a few odd spells. Are there any past that?

Explicit mentions from the statblocks at the back of RHOD:
- Monster Manual II for Warklegnaw (Forest Giant)
- Complete Adventurer for Skather, who's a Ninja.
- Complete Warrior for Azarr Kul (he has Divine Vigor).

Indirectly, most of the Spawn of Tiamat are drawn from Monster Manual IV; Skather is flat-out pulled from the sample Blackspawn Raider in that splatbook. EDIT: In fact it's the reverse. Monster Manual IV was published in July 2006, while Red Hand of Doom came out earlier that year. It's actually RHOD that's the first iteration of the blackspawn raider, and MM IV that sort-of counts as the update.

The lesser bonedrinkers and Ghost Dire/Brute Lions are from Libris Mortis, though it isn't specifically mentioned as the source.

Saintheart

2022-07-22, 02:41 AM

Community Project: Fixing the Fane of Tiamat

In summary:

Generally speaking the Fane sucks.
The reason it sucks is possibly because it’s not sufficiently dynamic.
It can be fixed with increasing degrees of alterations to DM taste
Anybody got any other suggestions for repairs?

What’s wrong with the Fane of Tiamat?
I won’t restate the arguments/observations made elsewhere in the thread: most people are underwhelmed by the Fane. And I’ve had a lot of trouble over the years trying to put my finger precisely on what about it sucks. But I think I have a handle on it, which I’m going to try and lay out here. If others have competing views – either as DMs or as players – then I’m happy to hear them.

Summing it up: the Fane of Tiamat isn’t actually an explorable dungeon. It’s a gauntlet on a timer.

The time limit comes from the countdown to the opening of the portal. My guess is the time limit was imposed to give the campaign a big, flashy ending -- and nudge players into proceeding without resorting to 15-minute adventuring days. Without that time limit, and without a more-or-less-straight-ahead path through the Fane, you don’t necessarily get Azarr Kul at the end of the campaign, and indeed without the time limit the party could simply just shrug and say “Whatever, Azarr Kul can do as he likes, we can go beat him up any time we want.”

The size of the Fane disguises its nature as a gauntlet. It’s not a bad disguise, because the Fane is shaped like a “working environment” – it has barracks, sleeping quarters, kitchen, temple, Inner Fane, council room, and so on. However, I contend a dungeon is not interesting (which is to say, explorable) solely because it has chambers and passages and room numbers with stuff in it. Analysing the Fane by drawing a Melan Diagram (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/45711/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon-addendum-how-to-use-a-melan-diagram) makes it fairly obvious (if it weren’t already) that the Fane really only has one path forward and no branches causing meaningful differences in how the dungeon plays out. No matter how much you futz around, you’re ultimately going into the Temple, and then to the Chasm, and then onto the Inner Fane, in that order. You can’t realistically bypass any of those locations or approach them in any other sequence.

Which is to say, underlining it once more: the Fane has more in common with the Battle of Brindol’s set encounters than it does the overall structure of RHOD which allows you some freedom in what if any tasks you choose to follow up.

Is this a problem?
Again I pause here to point out this might or might not be a problem depending on the campaign you want to run.

If the idea of a gauntlet to finish off the big bad at the end of the adventure appeals to you, or you think your players are more into narratives than exploration and would appreciate a faster end to the campaign, then the changes required for the Fane might only be as the handbook suggests – cut the Fane down and streamline it while still having a significant fight or two. I’ve said before in the handbook that I particularly like the idea of swarming the players in the Great Temple with a decent array of hobgoblin fanatics to give them a feeling of being ultimate bad@sses before moving on to the inner chamber; this is a situation the players haven’t been faced with before.

Another argument for leaving the Fane of Tiamat essentially untouched might be if you can shoehorn closer personal connections to the PCs into its contents, or sow some plot seeds for the inevitable future. A PC’s relative has been taken prisoner there, or some former mentor now works for the Red Hand who must be confronted, maybe some longrunning annoyance of a foe makes a reappearance here for a final showdown. Or some documents are left indicating “the Master will be most pleased with your work, Azarr Kul,” or what have you. And so on. This pushes attention away from the fact the Fane’s not really explorable to the idea that you are uncovering secrets or finding out something interesting in this random dungeon.

I also suspect that the Fane of Tiamat as written more or less works fine if the party loses at Brindol. It’s not discussed extensively because this is a fairly rare occurrence, but the Fane as a final, last-gasp Hail Mary gauntlet to be braved on behalf of the Vale actually feels satisfying – you failed and Brindol has fallen, but here’s one last chance to break the Red Hand’s will and morale, destroy their spiritual support by destroying the ruler responsible for all this. In this circumstance an explorable dungeon might not actually be the right fit. And the Fane could be left basically as is, with a strong feeling of having overcome against all odds at the end of the module.

No, it is a problem.
But let’s say these things don’t appeal and one does want to make some changes to the Fane so it doesn’t completely suck … or at least feels more like a dungeon. In more or less increasing order of complexity, there’s about three categories of change I’ve been mulling over which should rework the Fane into something more explorable.

Two more entrances.
In summary, add two passages to the Fane:

A hidden (or not so hidden) passage at the rear of Tyrgarun’s cave (Area 2), dragon sized, descending into the earth, emerging at the bottom of the pit forming a big black hole in the Fane's chasm (Area 12). RHOD says this hole was apparently a great white wyrm’s lair once, long ago, which gives us a rationale for the dragons repurposing it. More importantly, it means the Fane can now be tackled in something other than the predefined sequence if the players want to do that - as well as giving them another way out of the place if they want to regroup. And then there's the climb up the pit. Different levels to a chamber immediately add interest or invite the players to think of ways to tackle a dungeon, and this gives the massive hole something to do other than be an environmental hazard.

Remember the Place of Speaking from RHOD's introduction, the one where Azarr Kul makes his sinister address to the assembled tribes of the Wyrmsmokes? It never appears again in the module. But it does now. Scouting players or investigating players find out from a hobgoblin prisoner that Azarr Kul seemed to disappear into the mountain after his big speech, and when the party goes and checks the Place of Speaking out, they find another hidden passage … a long one that leads into the Fane. Specifically, into the council chamber (Area 10), in the Upper Fane. This doesn’t add a lot to the Fane, but it does add another option and makes the players get their bearings before proceeding on.

Increase the Great Temple’s Vertical Scale
When you look over the map of the whole Fane, it becomes apparent that the Great Temple (Area 11) has three entrances: the main stairwell down and two secret entrances, one from the clerics’ chambers, the other from the torture chambers. You have to look closely at the map to realise that these two secret entrances don’t empty out onto the temple floor, but rather onto a raised balcony above the temple.

As said, chambers with different levels, or which can’t be passed without traversing different levels, are more interesting than plain old single-level spaces. So one of the simplest ways to add interest here is to make those differences in level meaningful. Build the secret entrances as entering the chamber fifty feet up, or below – anything to give different ways of entering the chamber. And correspondingly, don’t allow for just one exit from the chamber. One possibility: have an exit that Azarr Kul uses and which shortcuts across the chasm to his chambers (Area 14). Perhaps this exit is high up enough that the party either makes a vertical ascent or has to flat-out levitate to get upward, similar to how they have to perform a vertical ascent to get to the chamber with the portal. Another might be to add five tunnels behind the alcoves which do lead to the chasm, or even outside.

Remap the Fane extensively and turn it into a battleground.
As said, this one takes the biggest changes and I’m minded to actually attempt a map of this sort later. But basically, we rebuild the Fane to a more branching structure with lots of loops and secret doorways, giving the sense it is an abandoned complex only recently revealed and excavated by Azarr Kul’s forces.

Added to this is that the Great Temple is now the centre of the upper complex, and is host to an ongoing battle (currently stalemated) between opposed groups of clerics: on Kul’s side, clerics of Tiamat; on the other, clerics of Maglubiyet who’ve turned on their fellows, desperately trying to wrest control of the place for the sake of their fellow goblinoids (or at least for the sake of their jealous goblinoid god, who’s none too pleased about Tiamat’s presumption in grabbing his worshippers off him).

The Temple is a battlefield of summoned lower-end draconic denizens against conventional demons as the two factions’ forces strive to overwhelm the other. Then ensure there are entrances to each faction’s side and allow for a limited amount of negotiation with the factions. The players become the tipping point of the struggle.

What about the time limit?
This is probably the trickiest element, but I actually think that if the party's been successful at Brindol, there isn't actually much need for a time limit before the portal opens. It can just remain in progress the whole time, or alternatively it opens making different creatures encountered in the Fane, but doesn't have end-of-the-world significance as it does in the original text.

This does, however, mean the party needs some other motivation for getting over to the Fane ASAP. And for that, maybe it's less about a solid time limit being placed so much that Brindol is essentially defenceless after pushing back the Red Hand and they'll be vulnerable for months at least unless the threat of Azarr Kul is ended conclusively. This does mean the party is given more time to recover and prepare for the assault on the Fane, and you'd have to come up with other indicators that the threat of the Fane remains - bad dreams, outsiders showing up in the Vale, that sort of thing - but if you want to make the Fane a much more explorable location, you might have to consider extending or doing away with the time limit on this part of the campaign altogether. Possibly the motivation becomes a flat-out bounty being put on Azarr Kul's head, or some promise of the riches they haven't had throughout the adventure in the vaults of the Fane.
This turns the last dungeon into a hunt rather than a race against time, which plays more into exploration.

Anyone else?
Like I said, I mean to remap the Fane with much of this, but if anyone else has good ideas that worked for rebuilding the Fane, or any contrasting opinions, I would be very happy to hear them. This is one element of the adventure that could profit from some solid stone-souping.

Kurald Galain

2022-07-22, 04:46 AM

Running RHOD under Pathfinder
Antariuk has also been working on a Pathfinder conversion for RHOD: you can find his work-in-progress here (http://fallschaden.blogspot.de/p/red-hand-of-doom.html).

I'm interested in reading this, however this link throws a bright red "phishing alert" in Chrome. Does anyone know what's up with that, or is this perhaps mirrored somewhere?

Saintheart

2022-07-22, 07:51 AM

I'm interested in reading this, however this link throws a bright red "phishing alert" in Chrome. Does anyone know what's up with that, or is this perhaps mirrored somewhere?

Antariuk's blog went into the great beyond some years ago by the look of it - that's another link I have to update.

That said, it did make it into archive.org - you can find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20201127084120/https://fallschaden.blogspot.com/p/red-hand-of-doom.html

Alternatively, Antariuk does occasionally stop by here, you might be able to DM him.

jmax

2022-07-25, 07:46 AM

Do you have any recommendations for DMs whose players are, well... me?

My wife ran Red Hand of Doom several years ago, and I ran a druid PC. I believe we were 5th level when we started but got 6th after Vraath Keep - we were stringing together a few modules and so were probably in the middle of 5th when we started.

After a long and grueling battle at Vraath Keep (partly because I got out-voted, and the rest of the party insisted on breaking down the front door instead of being stealthy), we found Koth's map and some scraps of mostly-burned notes (did I mention the battle was long? Koth burned most of his correspondence with Kharn before bailing with invisible flight). So we knew there was a big hobgoblin army, and we knew roughly where they were camped. It struck me that the immediate and obvious next step was that the rest of the party should turn around and head back to Drellin's Ferry while I, being a druid, took eagle form and flew up to scout Cinder Hill to see just how big a problem this army was going to be.

Now the road to Cinder Hill from Vraath Keep is long and dangerous. It requires crossing or bypassing Skull Gorge and the bridge (which has a sizeable force of hobgoblins and a dragon guarding it), and the forest is full of all kinds of hazards. None of which counts for jack if you fly over all of it. I had two uses of Wild Shape per day, and the Elsir Vale map shows that it's a distance of less than 80 miles from Vraath Keep to anywhere that could plausibly be Cinder Hill (which is not marked on the Elsir Vale map). In real life, eagles make about 30 miles per hour, but even if you limit it to what game statistics allow (9 mph overland), two uses of Wild Shape at 6th level gets you well upwards of 100 miles with a forced march and some hustling. That's plenty of time to get to Cinder Hill and scout things out. I found the army, got a good count, noted the big red dragon, and overnighted on a nearby mountain, and flew back to Drellin's Fairy the next day to scare the crap out of the village elders. They all agreed to evacuate with minimal fuss (something about ten thousand hobgoblins and a dragon) and sent runners to all the towns between Drellin's Fairy and Brindol warning them to do the same. They even agreed to destroy Skull Gorge bridge without pushing back too hard, and we collectively decided that the best way to give the most possible time for evacuations and defenses was to keep an eye on the army (again with me as an eagle in Wild Shape) and drop the bridge when they were one day north - far enough away to keep the bridge from getting any reinforcements, but also far enough along their marching that they had to turn an army of ten thousand around and march back the way they came to find an alternate route. We set the army back several days - longer even than expected for blowing the bridge because we made them double back.

At the time, this seemed like the obvious thing to do. The module authors even give the party a 5th-level druid they can hire - we promptly forgot about him, but that's not the point. Avarthel would have needed an extra day or two for scouting, but the timeline for the Red Hand's march would still have been shattered - and it was. It completely wrecked any need for hurrying or making hard decisions as the army moved. Every town the Red Hand sacked was empty. All portable provisions were taken to Brindol to bulk up the stores for the inevitable siege - and anything that couldn't be transported, the evacuees destroyed. The Red Hand soldiers were bored, cranky, hungry, and tired by the time they got to Brindol. We had enough time to do all of the little side quests the module suggested and then some - my wife made a couple of extras to keep us busy, and we still had a few days to get Brindol ready before the Red Hand army got there.

Now I have to say that all of the players had a blast regardless, and we got to feel very clever always being several steps ahead of the Red Hand army. But my wife has always been disappointed that she didn't get to apply any of the squeeze and tension that was supposed to pervade the whole module. (I tell her that she should blame the module authors for not having planned for that - it's not the job of a first-time DM to think of all the possible ways that clever players can break a professionally published module.)

I took a quick skim through Part 1 of the Red Handbook and didn't see anything addressing this problem. I think it's possible to remediate at least somewhat by emphasizing that Koth's map is terrible, making it hard to find exactly where the army is camped, but Elsir Vale is pretty small, and a druid in eagle shape can get a phenomenal vantage point. I think you can stall maybe a couple of days, but that's it. Since the map already shows how long it will take for the hobgoblins to get to Brindol, there's probably only so much you can speed them out without it feeling like you're just undermining the players' achievements for its own sake. The best I can think of is that, after finding Drellin's Ferry, Terrelton, and Nimon Gap all empty, the army might save some time by forgoing ancillary attacks on Dauth, Prosser, and Witchcross. Any other ideas? I took a quick skim through Part 1 of the handbook and didn't see any mention of this problem.

Kurald Galain

2022-07-25, 08:51 AM

Do you have any recommendations for DMs whose players are, well... me?
Primarily, I would argue that if the enemy is in perception range, then so are you. Even when shapeshifted, scouting out an entire army by yourself is incredibly dangerous. You might be able to stay outside bow range, but I don't think you can count an army while staying outside of "long" spell range, of a dragon that flies faster than you; or for that matter, of a scouting party that could find you when you're sleeping.

Aside from that, I would argue that you can't necessarily persuade all the NPCs in the scenario to use optimal tactics. What if you can't just persuade them to destroy the bridge? What if one of their runners fails, gets ambushed, or turns traitor? No plan survives contact with the enemy, after all.

Saintheart

2022-07-25, 09:34 AM

Now I have to say that all of the players had a blast regardless, and we got to feel very clever always being several steps ahead of the Red Hand army. But my wife has always been disappointed that she didn't get to apply any of the squeeze and tension that was supposed to pervade the whole module. (I tell her that she should blame the module authors for not having planned for that - it's not the job of a first-time DM to think of all the possible ways that clever players can break a professionally published module.)

I took a quick skim through Part 1 of the Red Handbook and didn't see anything addressing this problem. I think it's possible to remediate at least somewhat by emphasizing that Koth's map is terrible, making it hard to find exactly where the army is camped, but Elsir Vale is pretty small, and a druid in eagle shape can get a phenomenal vantage point. I think you can stall maybe a couple of days, but that's it. Since the map already shows how long it will take for the hobgoblins to get to Brindol, there's probably only so much you can speed them out without it feeling like you're just undermining the players' achievements for its own sake. The best I can think of is that, after finding Drellin's Ferry, Terrelton, and Nimon Gap all empty, the army might save some time by forgoing ancillary attacks on Dauth, Prosser, and Witchcross. Any other ideas? I took a quick skim through Part 1 of the handbook and didn't see any mention of this problem.

First thing is for your wife to reassess where the tension of the module comes from. From what I gather, she's thinking it mostly comes from the party not knowing where the Red Hand is, or being barely ahead of the Red Hand, and getting the various tasks done in the nick of time before the Red Hand reaches Brindol.

In practice generating real tension on the clock that way takes what players call "undermining" and what DMs call generating an actual challenge. As I said at the start of the handbook, most parties seem to get back to Brindol with time in hand; that, in turn, is because the module was written for barely competent players and had to leave a large margin of error in case the players - as they sometimes/often do - completely go off the track or don't pick up on the blatantly obvious.

If your wife does want to up the practical difficulty level for the party in that way, then she should start burning both ends of the candle. Two simplest ways to do that:

(1) Cut the Red Hand's timeline on Koth's map down significantly. Nothing says you can't scribble on the map, especially with an image file. The Red Hand army now arrives in each of Drellin's Ferry, Terrelton, Nimon Gap, Talar, and Brindol two days earlier at each town, i.e. it only takes them until Day 3 to reach Drellin's Ferry, then Day 8 to reach Terrelton, Day 11 to reach Nimon Gap, Day 14 to reach Talar, and Day 17 to reach Brindol. "But an army doesn't move that faaaaaasst..." Fine, cut it down to four days per town. Brindol burns around day 20 instead. It's still a lot less time to get around the Vale.

(2) Don't give the party the Tiri Kitor's owls. Just remove them entirely or don't make them available to the party. They exist mainly to ensure a fail party gets to the Ghostlord's domain and back to Brindol in time, and they change the travel equation significantly. Getting to the Ghostlord now involves braving the Witchwood, maybe down river, and right through the Red Hand's occupied territory, on foot. And then track overland movement, don't abstract the journey, and track the difference in terrain. Distances in the Vale aren't quite as small as they seem, especially if you're off road rather than following established trails. "Ha, we'll go on the river from Rhest to Drellin's Ferry!" Sure. Too bad rafts, barges, keelboats, and rowboats are used on rivers, and make a colossal 15 miles per day on DMG numbers, and it's about 100 miles from Rhest to the Ghostlord's lair - if you even know where that is, or else, it's off on foot to Brindol to research his location and then cross the length of half the Vale getting there. Oh, and then there's the problem of getting back overland to Brindol from the Ghostlord's domain, while the Red Hand heads in the same direction as you.

I'm also not quite sure from your post whether the party actually went to Rhest and the Thornwaste. If they didn't, well, they can win that way technically, but the Battle of Brindol should have been a meat grinder and the final encounters should have been pretty tough to the point of overwhelming. You should've been facing Saarvith, Ulwai, the Ghostlord, and Kharn all at once in the final encounter, after having taken on the undead and the greenspawn razorfiends during the Battle. That should've been something akin to EL 12+ or so against a party of, what, EL 9 or so? The Ghostlord in particular should've been absolutely mauling your party with that set of allies.

Dealing with "hur hur I iz eagle scout, you iz not see me?" Easy: make the hobgoblin army a bit more genre savvy and have them include a couple of druids of their own. These guys have had spies all through Elsir Vale for weeks and know its defences very well. The idea that a massive, organised hobgoblin army would never dream of maybe shooting down an eagle that doesn't appear to be behaving the way a low Knowledge (Nature) roll dictates it should be is almost as unbelievable as said hobgoblins not doing basic tactics like focusing fire and taking down casters first. Or the idea that hobgoblin armies might not have scouts or pickets out of their own. Even flying ones, like manticores. Or chimaeras. You know, the sort of stuff that likes to chew up aerial snacks like eagles.

jmax

2022-07-25, 09:38 AM

Primarily, I would argue that if the enemy is in perception range, then so are you. Even when shapeshifted, scouting out an entire army by yourself is incredibly dangerous.

Golden eagles are native to temperate mountains, so being detected at any meaningful distance is extremely unlikely so long as you stay well in the air. 1000 feet up is trivial, gives you a fabulous vantage point, and makes it all but impossible that anyone is going to notice the difference. You're just another bird at that point - and a tiny speck in the sky at that, if you're visible at all.

You might be able to stay outside bow range, but I don't think you can count an army while staying outside of "long" spell range, of a dragon that flies faster than you; or for that matter, of a scouting party that could find you when you're sleeping.

Perception rules break down when you're looking at something like an army, even for counting them. You don't have to get an exact count - the difference between approximately 10000 and 10124 is largely irrelevant. In general, counting the number of tents is sufficient to get a rough guess, and that's easy from a pretty solid distance. Eagles also have a very nice racial bonus on Spot checks.

The common soldiers might go after every bird they can eat, but the dragon and the spellcasters won't - it's not practical, and there's no point. (Likewise, the soldiers might trap and eat rats, but they probably aren't going to bother with mice - from the dragon's perspective, it should be about the same.)

The scouting party is a real risk, but a bird can get places a scouting party can't (even places big enough for a human to sleep), and a scouting party can only range so far from the army. Plonk down on the far side of a nearby mountain close to the top (there are lots of mountains handy there) and your odds are pretty good.

Aside from that, I would argue that you can't necessarily persuade all the NPCs in the scenario to use optimal tactics. What if you can't just persuade them to destroy the bridge? What if one of their runners fails, gets ambushed, or turns traitor? No plan survives contact with the enemy, after all.

UMD for Silent Image to show them a visual of the camp. Scared the pants off of them. Absent UMD, if PF content is allowed, your bard/wizard/sorcerer/witch can use Share Memory (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/share-memory/) to grab the visual from the druid. If PF content isn't allowed, Detect Thoughts should also work just fine. Both are 2nd-level spells. There are several different ways to get to the point where you can play a video of it for them.

They also can't really stop you from destroying the bridge - they can withhold their blessing, but if you blow the bridge without telling them, they won't find out until the army is late.

It's always possible for the PCs to blow the Diplomacy checks on convincing the elders to send runners, but that's a pretty thin backstop. I think you could make a solid argument that the runners to individual towns might fail to get there or fail to persuade the occupants, but enough redundant runners to Brindol should be pretty reliable. I think we also used multiple Animal Messengers to send backup messages to Brindol, and as I recall we made copies of Koth's map (which is rough enough for that to be plausible without taking forever) to send with the runners and birds.

EDIT: Have to get going to work. I'll reply to Saintheart tonight.

Kurald Galain

2022-07-25, 10:00 AM

You're just another bird at that point - and a tiny speck in the sky at that, if you're visible at all.
Sure, but now you're thinking as a player whereas your question was from the GM perspective. Try finding reasons for why your plans could hit an obstacle, instead of finding justifications for why everything should work without any snags.

The idea that a massive, organised hobgoblin army would never dream of maybe shooting down an eagle that doesn't appear to be behaving the way a low Knowledge (Nature) roll dictates it should be is almost as unbelievable as said hobgoblins not doing basic tactics like focusing fire and taking down casters first. Or the idea that hobgoblin armies might not have scouts or pickets out of their own. Even flying ones, like manticores. Or chimaeras. You know, the sort of stuff that likes to chew up aerial snacks like eagles.
Yes, that.

jmax

2022-07-25, 08:16 PM

(1) Cut the Red Hand's timeline on Koth's map down significantly. Nothing says you can't scribble on the map, especially with an image file. The Red Hand army now arrives in each of Drellin's Ferry, Terrelton, Nimon Gap, Talar, and Brindol two days earlier at each town, i.e. it only takes them until Day 3 to reach Drellin's Ferry, then Day 8 to reach Terrelton, Day 11 to reach Nimon Gap, Day 14 to reach Talar, and Day 17 to reach Brindol. "But an army doesn't move that faaaaaasst..." Fine, cut it down to four days per town. Brindol burns around day 20 instead. It's still a lot less time to get around the Vale.

We already had the map by that point - but cutting the time spent in each town makes a ton of sense. It's not going to take days to loot and pillage a completely abandoned town that's had everything of value (including food) either taken or destroyed. That could definitely shave off a good bit of time. According to random people on the internet (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/288fzp/comment/ci8h9dl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), and estimating about 150-200 miles between Cinder Hill and Brindol, 15-20 days does actually sound plausible if they aren't stopping to enjoy themselves.

(2) Don't give the party the Tiri Kitor's owls. Just remove them entirely or don't make them available to the party. They exist mainly to ensure a fail party gets to the Ghostlord's domain and back to Brindol in time, and they change the travel equation significantly. Getting to the Ghostlord now involves braving the Witchwood, maybe down river, and right through the Red Hand's occupied territory, on foot. And then track overland movement, don't abstract the journey, and track the difference in terrain. Distances in the Vale aren't quite as small as they seem, especially if you're off road rather than following established trails. "Ha, we'll go on the river from Rhest to Drellin's Ferry!" Sure. Too bad rafts, barges, keelboats, and rowboats are used on rivers, and make a colossal 15 miles per day on DMG numbers, and it's about 100 miles from Rhest to the Ghostlord's lair - if you even know where that is, or else, it's off on foot to Brindol to research his location and then cross the length of half the Vale getting there. Oh, and then there's the problem of getting back overland to Brindol from the Ghostlord's domain, while the Red Hand heads in the same direction as you.

Deleting the owls would also significantly constrain travel, yes. Although it sort of feels like punishing the players for being clever.

Part of the problem with the owls toward that point was also what she semi-affectionately calls "stupid druid tricks" for buffing overland movement. Wind at Back plus Tern's Persistence plus Traveler's Mount effectively quadruples overland travel speed. They're all perfectly valid, and it's a large investment of resources, but it does make overland travel very, very fast.

I'm also not quite sure from your post whether the party actually went to Rhest and the Thornwaste. If they didn't, well, they can win that way technically, but the Battle of Brindol should have been a meat grinder and the final encounters should have been pretty tough to the point of overwhelming. You should've been facing Saarvith, Ulwai, the Ghostlord, and Kharn all at once in the final encounter, after having taken on the undead and the greenspawn razorfiends during the Battle. That should've been something akin to EL 12+ or so against a party of, what, EL 9 or so? The Ghostlord in particular should've been absolutely mauling your party with that set of allies.

We did both. We covered every scrap of content in the module book that wasn't mutually exclusive with other successes (e.g. we didn't have the Massacre at Drellin's Ferry), and then more besides - specifically fleshing out the "get help from the dwarves" into a chain of side quests. (It was really cool! She did a great job with that.)

Sure, but now you're thinking as a player whereas your question was from the GM perspective. Try finding reasons for why your plans could hit an obstacle, instead of finding justifications for why everything should work without any snags.

More I'm pointing out that it's not as implausible as you suggest. If I wasn't looking for ways to plug that hole, I wouldn't be asking in this thread.

Dealing with "hur hur I iz eagle scout, you iz not see me?" Easy: make the hobgoblin army a bit more genre savvy and have them include a couple of druids of their own. These guys have had spies all through Elsir Vale for weeks and know its defences very well. The idea that a massive, organised hobgoblin army would never dream of maybe shooting down an eagle that doesn't appear to be behaving the way a low Knowledge (Nature) roll dictates it should be is almost as unbelievable as said hobgoblins not doing basic tactics like focusing fire and taking down casters first. Or the idea that hobgoblin armies might not have scouts or pickets out of their own. Even flying ones, like manticores. Or chimaeras. You know, the sort of stuff that likes to chew up aerial snacks like eagles.

I think you overestimate how different scouting behavior would be from an eagle's norm. A druid in eagle form spying on an army would likely be either sitting perched in a high tree on high ground looking down and around or soaring high in the air looking down in general. A real eagle would essentially be doing the same, just with different intent - sweeping the area for food instead of counting.

But I like the hobgoblin druids angle. That's solid, and it opens up a ton of interesting options for a bunch of other things. It also works really well for countering "stupid druid tricks" because they'd know all the same tricks. And indeed those same tricks may well be how the Red Hand scouted Elsir Vale in the first place - certainly they didn't have a bunch of hobgoblins walking down Main Street in Brindol. And knowing said tricks, it's quite plausible that they would take specific note of all of the local birds suitable for early Wild Shape use, since that would essentially just be eagles and vultures. It's not plausible for them to tag or kill everything suitable for Tiny Wild Shape - there are just too many options - but eagles at least are territorial; there would probably be only one nesting pair anywhere near Cinder Hill. If suddenly there's a third eagle, that's very suspicious.

Which gives me another idea for a way to make that quite interesting. You've entered another eagle's territory - it's either going to try to drive you off or bond you as a mate. (They mate for life.) In addition to being funny as hell, that's also going to make a ruckus and attract attention. Unless the PC druid is willing to just murder the local eagle, but I'd start tallying that as "cease to revere nature" points. (The hobgoblin druids can justify it in terms of the greater good achieved by scouring the humans from the Vale to remove the stain of their industry and civilization.)

All of that requires anticipating and preparing for the possibility though. A new DM running a pre-published module probably isn't going to come up with that on the fly. Though it might be a valid use of "Let's take a 15-minute break while I figure out how to respond to that." Regardless, it might be worth calling out that specific wrench explicitly - both the scouting and the mobility spells.

Saintheart

2022-07-25, 09:00 PM

Deleting the owls would also significantly constrain travel, yes. Although it sort of feels like punishing the players for being clever.

It's not, because the module does not make it a given that the party is going to get the Tiri Kitor's owls. Indeed on initial contact with them the Tiri Kitor outright refuse to allow the party have access to them on the module.

It's only if the party gets the best possible result after finishing up at Rhest -- see page 65 of the module -- that they are gifted with the owls. That result, in turn, rests on chance to a substantial extent since getting there requires successful Diplomacy checks with more or less every elf you run into and pulling off successful Perform checks at Lanikar's funeral. Just doing stuff like killing ugly things alone doesn't get you the owls, and getting good rolls is good luck, not cleverness.

But raising difficulty is never punishing players for their cleverness.

Fizban

2022-07-25, 10:26 PM

Now I have to say that all of the players had a blast regardless, and we got to feel very clever always being several steps ahead of the Red Hand army. But my wife has always been disappointed that she didn't get to apply any of the squeeze and tension that was supposed to pervade the whole module. (I tell her that she should blame the module authors for not having planned for that - it's not the job of a first-time DM to think of all the possible ways that clever players can break a professionally published module.)
Last I checked, I remember finding that the timetable gave enough time for the PCs to reach every objective on horseback, probably without even the given delaying tactics. It was designed to allow full completion for normal parties. The adventure really doesn't expect you to fail any of the objectives any more than it expects you stand and fight at Drellen's Ferry, and that means there has to be enough time to do them. If you shorten the timetable to require faster movement, you allow for the PCs to fail based on a single thing which they might not even have access to- basically saying they get the Giant Owls or spam Phantom Steed spells (or find a couple specific splat substitutes) or they fail.

Which, based on some older adventures I've seen, does seem to have originally been a thing. Stuff like "at least one of the PCs should have tracking ability" when an adventure requires them to track something should be a no-brainer. A race against time adventure that specified the PCs should have access to at least X fast travel ability would be entirely appropriate.

a druid in eagle shape can get a phenomenal vantage point.
To be fair, I don't think any DnD book or module has ever seriously considered the "Animorph Effect," available at 1st level via standard familiars/companions and Speak With Animals (I've actually specified why in my own changes, a nakedly game-mechanics based ruling that hawk sight only works for stuff that hawks do, so catching mice). That is, if you rule that said animals have sense abilities based on what we know of them in real life rather than their mechanics. Not that you need super senses to tell that there's an army of thousands from the air.

but I don't think you can count an army while staying outside of "long" spell range, of a dragon that flies faster than you;
Well the dragon has no reason to suspect a common animal- but the dragon also probably has better sight than the eagle, mechanically.

Part of the problem with the owls toward that point was also what she semi-affectionately calls "stupid druid tricks" for buffing overland movement. Wind at Back plus Tern's Persistence plus Traveler's Mount effectively quadruples overland travel speed. They're all perfectly valid, and it's a large investment of resources, but it does make overland travel very, very fast.
Yup, the two specific splat spells (Tern's Persistence is effectively overwritten by Traveler's Mount IIRC), originally from different sources and thus never evaluated re:stacking, against a module written for PHB characters. Basically only justified by Phantom Steed being a PHB spell, but it is so there's that (though the only statted and highest level Wizard in Brindol does not have this spell to copy from).

But I like the hobgoblin druids angle. That's solid, and it opens up a ton of interesting options for a bunch of other things. It also works really well for countering "stupid druid tricks" because they'd know all the same tricks. And indeed those same tricks may well be how the Red Hand scouted Elsir Vale in the first place - certainly they didn't have a bunch of hobgoblins walking down Main Street in Brindol. And knowing said tricks, it's quite plausible that they would take specific note of all of the local birds suitable for early Wild Shape use, since that would essentially just be eagles and vultures. It's not plausible for them to tag or kill everything suitable for Tiny Wild Shape - there are just too many options - but eagles at least are territorial; there would probably be only one nesting pair anywhere near Cinder Hill. If suddenly there's a third eagle, that's very suspicious.
I justified anti-party knowledge (really just the fact that some events assume the Red Hand can find the party) with worg riders sending Animal Messengers via wand.

To detect scouts, generous readings of Commune with Nature regarding the "fact" of "people" and "powerful unnatural creatures" could do the job. Or you can simply presume sufficient Divination abuse, but that's always there.

and pulling off successful Perform checks at Lanikar's funeral.
Which I've always found as basically a gimme (did I make this rant in the last thread?)- I do not generally expect DnD, the tactical combat game of killing monsters and taking their stuff (with a side of emergent roleplaying), to linger over a funeral. And if it does, I do not expect the isolationist elves to appreciate outsiders jumping in to roll Perform checks. Yet, how are most DMs going to present this funeral? By trying to paraphrase the mechanical options given to the PCs while surrounding it with a bit of fluff, thus leading them directly to the checks that they might otherwise have never considered. And if they do, it specifically says each PC can get a +1 for a measly 10 or higher. Plus another two if someone consoles the widow.

But then, as I said, the module does need to allow for unskilled parties to succeed, and you only get 5/9 points for clearing out the dungeon, so you need another 4 available with little effort.

But even then, it's only DC 15 to get from Indifferent to Friendly, with a gimme +2 for being polite, and the DM is specifically directed that the rest of the PCs get to make Aid Another checks for a likely +2-4, and the first one they meet has a gimme +2-6 (presuming the PCs killed the monster and gave up the insignificant loot to their intended future ally). So the unskilled party is still likely to get anywhere from two to four points even without a lucky roll.

So they've done two different sets of padding to ensure the party can succeed with just a little interaction outside of completing the dungeon, which ends up meaning that it only takes one or two good rolls for a party that's not really trying to end up with the owls. And while on paper those points might sound like a reward for paying attention and good roleplaying and skill investment, I think it ends up being more a string of handouts that only fails with back luck or deliberate rudeness.

But, if you were going to allow for the PCs to fail to have enough time for objectives, you'd have to allow some other way for them to deal with those problems. The Battle allows that as extra waves of enemies, some of which are chumps and some ridiculous, culminating in a boss fight that ought to already have the party exhausted adding multiple simultaneous bosses. You'd need to invent a whole different set of town-based methods they could use to subvert those problems- which would be the way some people expect to be able to train the peasants and improve the fortifications and recruit leveled NPCs. But then you'll still have the scenario where some parties will do both. The only way to really lock it down is to lock it down- make it so everything has concrete unavoidable time costs so that if they do one thing they have to give up something else- ideally something they didn't even think of and so don't see it as an exchange, but instead as the correct and effective use of their time.

Saintheart

2022-07-25, 11:09 PM

Fizban

2022-07-26, 06:06 AM

Very generous indeed then- makes me wonder if the point I'd noted before was that a normal party could do it on foot, or even at dwarf speed then. Though heavy horses at medium capacity are only slightly faster than light walking, but even then yeah there's plenty of wiggle room before hitting the point of requiring specialized fast travel abilities.

I wonder if you could do a split- have a vanguard force that is moving fast enough to maybe spook the players, with the main force following behind at a more realistic speed and giving the overall time limit for wrapping up any remaining leadership and/or assaulting the fane.

jmax

2022-07-26, 07:51 AM

Last I checked, I remember finding that the timetable gave enough time for the PCs to reach every objective on horseback, probably without even the given delaying tactics. It was designed to allow full completion for normal parties. The adventure really doesn't expect you to fail any of the objectives any more than it expects you stand and fight at Drellen's Ferry, and that means there has to be enough time to do them. If you shorten the timetable to require faster movement, you allow for the PCs to fail based on a single thing which they might not even have access to- basically saying they get the Giant Owls or spam Phantom Steed spells (or find a couple specific splat substitutes) or they fail.

Koth's notes specify the assault on Brindol begins on day 35 after the Hand sets off from Cinder Hill, with given arrival dates at the various towns along the western half of the Dawn Way. The biggest delay is between Talar and Brindol; Talar's scheduled to be hit on day 25, and Brindol 10 days later, unlike the rest of the similarly-spaced towns which are about a week apart in each case.

Killing Koth delays this itinerary by 1 day, recruiting Warklegnaw slows it by a further 2 days, and destroying Skull Gorge Bridge nets you a further 3 days. So the assault goes from day 35 to maximum possible day 41.

<snip>

From the moment they've destroyed Skull Gorge Bridge and returned to Drellin's Ferry, the rough distances the party needs to cover are Drellin's Ferry to Rhest via the Dawn Way (about 100 miles, slightly longer if they stop off at Brindol on the way), back to Brindol (60-odd miles), over to the Ghostlord's domain (call it about 100 miles), and back to Brindol again (call it another 100 miles) = 360 miles or so. You basically have to go back to Brindol before heading to the Ghostlord's realm because that's the only place you can pinpoint the stone lion's location. A method that allows you to go direct to the stone lion from Rhest, especially one that allows you to travel as the crow flies and not around the Witchwood, makes that timeline even easier. The Hammerfist Holds sidetrip adds about another 50 to 100 miles since you're off to the western end of the Vale again unless your DM has timed it conveniently, but it doesn't make a huge difference here.

Very generous indeed then- makes me wonder if the point I'd noted before was that a normal party could do it on foot, or even at dwarf speed then. Though heavy horses at medium capacity are only slightly faster than light walking, but even then yeah there's plenty of wiggle room before hitting the point of requiring specialized fast travel abilities.

Given how generous that actually is, I think you could probably do both and not have it be horribly unfair.

Tightening the timeframe up front to make it more stressful still seems to give plenty of wiggle room - your bigger issue is the plausible speed of an army marching, so I think in no scenario can you shorten the timetable to fewer than 20 days without imposing things like a nasty forced march. Though a nasty forced march making the rank-and-file hobgoblins less effective would also allow you to make the force bigger and scarier... that actually could work pretty well. Double the army size up front but have it change its movement plans based on how much they've been thwarted at any given time. Then the PCs aren't have two elements they can influence - how quickly the army gets there and how scary the army is - with mutually exclusive optimizations. The PCs get to have a major effect on what the Battle of Brindol looks like, but in no event does it become a cakewalk. Of course the leaders and bosses of the army have ample access to restorative magicks throughout the trip - they'll be fresh and happy regardless. So yeah, I think there's plenty of room to tune the timetable based on how difficult you want the module to be. And maybe also tune the tension and drama - I'm not as good at gauging that. You might have to adjust the available and needed Victory Points a bit, but I think that's not too big a deal.

Squeezing on the other end if the party is particularly successful at evacuating everyone is easy to justify. Part of the army's original timetable clearly assumes they're sacking every town they come across, slaughtering every human they can find, and presumably looting all the available food as well as whatever shinies the individual soldiers want to keep for themselves. That takes time - probably a couple of days per town. Historically, it has been extremely difficult to keep even a perfectly provisioned army from looting and pillaging and usually abusing the hell out of the locals. But if there's nothing to loot/pillage and nobody to abuse, the only entertainment is setting the buildings on fire. That doesn't take terribly long. You can easily justify tightening up the timeline to 20 days if the army isn't stopping for entertainment, especially if they don't bother with Dauth and Prosser after establishing that there's no value in deviating from the Dawn Way.

Which means that, if the party does find a way to successfully scout Cinder Hill without eating into their available time, you don't necessarily have to lose the time pressure from the army - even if the party drops Skull Gorge Bridge, and even if (as we did) they wait until the last day to make the army lose a couple extra days doubling back to get to alternate routes. (The module doesn't account for that logistically, but it's fairly obvious.) But in that case you still aren't denying them their success - sure, it doesn't end up buying them any time, but they'll have saved a ton of extra people who otherwise would have died and kept the army from reprovisioning itself. That's hugely rewarding without breaking the module. I think that's perfect. You can also easily justify awarding a couple of extra Victory Points for the army being extra hungry and cranky, which helps offset possibly not having enough time to hit both Rhest and the Thornwaste if the army really picks up the pace.

Which, based on some older adventures I've seen, does seem to have originally been a thing. Stuff like "at least one of the PCs should have tracking ability" when an adventure requires them to track something should be a no-brainer. A race against time adventure that specified the PCs should have access to at least X fast travel ability would be entirely appropriate.

I think that depends on whether you're doing the module in isolation or as part of a longer campaign. We were doing it as part of a longer campaign that started with Sunless Citadel at 1st level, Burning Sage's Demense at 4th, a fun little interlude my wife made up herself, and then Red Hand of Doom starting at (I think) mid 5th.

As part of a longer campaign, the players don't get to optimize their characters for the specific nature of the challenges. Which obviously turned out not to be a problem for our group, but I would be wary of assuming an adventuring party kitted out for a string of modules has specific capabilities. In Red Hand of Doom, the authors handled that by making both a ranger and a druid available for the party to hire, which I think is a fine way to let the players play what they want without crippling them.

To be fair, I don't think any DnD book or module has ever seriously considered the "Animorph Effect," available at 1st level via standard familiars/companions and Speak With Animals (I've actually specified why in my own changes, a nakedly game-mechanics based ruling that hawk sight only works for stuff that hawks do, so catching mice). That is, if you rule that said animals have sense abilities based on what we know of them in real life rather than their mechanics. Not that you need super senses to tell that there's an army of thousands from the air.

I decided years ago that it was obvious that D&D's creators have never ventured outdoors long enough to see any animal of any kind in the wild and probably never even went to a decent zoo :-P

Animal companions and familiars I think you can justify being hard to wrangle at 1st level to get the scouting impact because they just aren't smart enough, but once a druid or familiar-bearing arcanist hits 5th level (familiars have 8 Int at that point, essentially equivalent to a slightly slow human), that goes out the window. I would definitely enforce "your bird isn't smart enough to do that or communicate the results with you" in very low-level play, but if the players do something clever to work around that limitation (e.g. casting Fox's Cunning on the bird), I wouldn't just shut down that creating a useful result.

Yup, the two specific splat spells (Tern's Persistence is effectively overwritten by Traveler's Mount IIRC), originally from different sources and thus never evaluated re:stacking, against a module written for PHB characters. Basically only justified by Phantom Steed being a PHB spell, but it is so there's that (though the only statted and highest level Wizard in Brindol does not have this spell to copy from).

They stack. Tern's Persistence lets the target travel for 12 hours instead of 8 without suffering the effects of a forced march. Traveler's Mount lets them hustle indefinitely without suffering detrimental effects. Together, that turns 7 hours of marching and 1 hour of hustling (the default without detrimental consequences) into 12 hours of hustling the entire time, which almost triples the distance traveled in a day. (You could then get further with a forced march, but at that point you're running out of time to deal with camping and cooking and hygiene and sleeping.) Traveler's Mount also adds a 20-ft enhancement to land speed, which brings that up to probably quadrupling the rate of progress. Wind at Back then doubles that again. Oops, that's 8x, not 4x.

I justified anti-party knowledge (really just the fact that some events assume the Red Hand can find the party) with worg riders sending Animal Messengers via wand.

I think that works plenty well - for everything except the druid-scouting-Cinder-Hill problem. But I think we've cobbled together enough ways to make that both interesting and at least a little dangerous, and having the army roll past the evacuated towns instead of entertaining themselves offsets even a perfect result without being punish-y.

To detect scouts, generous readings of Commune with Nature regarding the "fact" of "people" and "powerful unnatural creatures" could do the job. Or you can simply presume sufficient Divination abuse, but that's always there.

Ehh... overly abusing divination is cheesy even when only the players do it. I'd be very careful about overdoing that as a DM.

The only way to really lock it down is to lock it down- make it so everything has concrete unavoidable time costs so that if they do one thing they have to give up something else- ideally something they didn't even think of and so don't see it as an exchange, but instead as the correct and effective use of their time.

I think tuning how much time the army spends pillaging lets you manage this fairly well. Depending on how challenging you want the module to be, you can be more or less aggressive about it, potentially forcing mutually exclusive objectives.

I wonder if you could do a split- have a vanguard force that is moving fast enough to maybe spook the players, with the main force following behind at a more realistic speed and giving the overall time limit for wrapping up any remaining leadership and/or assaulting the fane.

I always thought it was a bit odd that the Fane is supposed to seem like such an amazing threat. Sure, the Aspect of Tiamat is scary, but she's not an army. She can assault a city but probably not destroy it. She can't hold territory by herself. If the Wyrmsmoke Mountains are essentially drained of soldier-worthy hobgoblins, the real threat is basically over... unless there's a second army.

So yeah, that could be another way to do it. It's a huge change to how the module works, but I think it's doable.

Saintheart

2022-07-26, 08:16 AM

I always thought it was a bit odd that the Fane is supposed to seem like such an amazing threat. Sure, the Aspect of Tiamat is scary, but she's not an army. She can assault a city but probably not destroy it. She can't hold territory by herself. If the Wyrmsmoke Mountains are essentially drained of soldier-worthy hobgoblins, the real threat is basically over... unless there's a second army.

That's the whole point of Kul's plan. He isn't summoning the Aspect, he's opening a gateway to Avernus, Tiamat's home plane, through which an entire infernal army is coming. The Aspect only turns up as a final Parthian Shot by Tiamat against the party for foiling her servant's plans. This, of course, is an asinine plan since there's no reason to send off the first army while you're still summoning the second. Hence why some DM long ago came up with the homebrew interpolation that the whole assault on Brindol is a genocidal Thanatos Gambit by Azarr Kul in order to make permanent the gateway to Avernus by sacrificing the whole Red Hand in battle to pay the blood price for opening the doorway. But that's an aside.

As for a vanguard force, the first candidate that springs to mind which is hobgoblin-ish is the Varag from MM IV. 60 foot movement allowance, so can run down horses and certainly refugee trains, and still low-ish CR ratings which make them annoying but good for sticking class levels on them. A couple of full tribes of them could justifiably sprint out ahead of the Red Hand's main force and cause problems for the PCs to deal with ahead of the main force.

jmax

2022-07-26, 08:29 AM

That's the whole point of Kul's plan. He isn't summoning the Aspect, he's opening a gateway to Avernus, Tiamat's home plane, through which an entire infernal army is coming.

Ok, I'd either missed or forgotten that part. That makes sense.

I think an easier interpretation than the Thanatos Gambit is that Azar Khuul legit wants the hobgoblins to rise in station. Taking Brindol and Dennovar achieves that personal goal. Opening the gateway to Avernus achieve's Tiamat's.

As for a vanguard force, the first candidate that springs to mind which is hobgoblin-ish is the Varag from MM IV. 60 foot movement allowance, so can run down horses and certainly refugee trains, and still low-ish CR ratings which make them annoying but good for sticking class levels on them. A couple of full tribes of them could justifiably sprint out ahead of the Red Hand's main force and cause problems for the PCs to deal with ahead of the main force.

That could work well if you want to add an additional, frustrating dimension. I think that would more be harassing the PCs and causing problems rather than an advance force that could legitimately attack Brindol, but it would also let you speed up the army if the varags are doing the looting and pillaging on the army's behalf. I would expect that, after the first few instances, the PCs would go after the varag vanguard, and I think I'd encourage that by making the numbers small enough that the PCs could plausibly handle them - which could easily be a few dozen (i.e. a whole tribe) per encounter once the PCs hit 7th level.

Saintheart

2022-07-29, 12:47 AM

That could work well if you want to add an additional, frustrating dimension. I think that would more be harassing the PCs and causing problems rather than an advance force that could legitimately attack Brindol, but it would also let you speed up the army if the varags are doing the looting and pillaging on the army's behalf. I would expect that, after the first few instances, the PCs would go after the varag vanguard, and I think I'd encourage that by making the numbers small enough that the PCs could plausibly handle them - which could easily be a few dozen (i.e. a whole tribe) per encounter once the PCs hit 7th level.

That sort of force would make for a nice explanation of how places like Dauth and Prosser are getting hit - because the Varags are fanning on the Red Hand's southern flank raiding the towns and villages out there. Could even be some sort of force the players need to distract or get clear so the Shining Axes can get through from the Hammerfist Holds.

jmax

2022-07-29, 07:48 AM

That sort of force would make for a nice explanation of how places like Dauth and Prosser are getting hit - because the Varags are fanning on the Red Hand's southern flank raiding the towns and villages out there. Could even be some sort of force the players need to distract or get clear so the Shining Axes can get through from the Hammerfist Holds.

Yeah, I thought it was weird that the whole army was diverting multiple times from the main marching route when they're on a schedule, especially if they haven't been able to reprovision.

Speaking of reprovisioning, looking over the Victory Point listings, the only evacuation that seems to count is Drellin's Ferry. That seems like an oversight. If the PCs manage to convince the towns between Drellin's Ferry and Brindol to evacuate and - more importantly from a military perspective - take all the food with them and destroy whatever they can't carry, the Red Hand army won't be able to reprovision effectively. There's a huge difference in effectiveness between a well-fed army and a hungry army, so this should be worth at least a couple of Victory Points per town - which then lets you crank up the total number of Victory Points needed by 5-15 depending on how much you want to weight the significance of reprovisioning.

Saintheart

2022-07-29, 08:16 AM

Yeah, I thought it was weird that the whole army was diverting multiple times from the main marching route when they're on a schedule, especially if they haven't been able to reprovision.

Speaking of reprovisioning, looking over the Victory Point listings, the only evacuation that seems to count is Drellin's Ferry. That seems like an oversight. If the PCs manage to convince the towns between Drellin's Ferry and Brindol to evacuate and - more importantly from a military perspective - take all the food with them and destroy whatever they can't carry, the Red Hand army won't be able to reprovision effectively. There's a huge difference in effectiveness between a well-fed army and a hungry army, so this should be worth at least a couple of Victory Points per town - which then lets you crank up the total number of Victory Points needed by 5-15 depending on how much you want to weight the significance of reprovisioning.

Well, this brings on a couple of larger meta questions we debated back in the old handbook thread, which I might rehash by saying -- what exactly is the point of the Victory Point count anyway?

The handbook breaks down the totals, but as with the distances to be covered by the party, you really have to be an abject failure at just about everything to not have 40 VP after the final fight with Kharn.

Just killing Kharn, Saarvith, Koth, Ulwai, and Abithriax nets you 24 VP, i.e. over the halfway line. And these guys are all guaranteed to show up at Brindol even if you missed them elsewhere. You pick up another 10 from saving the walls, putting out fires, holding the Dawn Way, and killing Skather - again, encounters that are pretty much put directly across your path. So we're already at 34 VP. If you convince the Lords not to be complete fools strategically, there's another 8 VP right there, it's over, you have more than 40 VP and could - if your party's strong - literally go straight to Brindol, kick back for four weeks, and then win the whole campaign that way.

You don't have to forge any other alliance, you don't have to kill any dragon other than the red who shows up, and you still win it ... albeit the encounters are a lot tougher, presumably, what with the Ghostlord fully on board and having to deal with 5 level bosses at once in the final battle when you should have been cut down to one if you were going out doing lots of stuff. Rhest, the Stone Lion, hell, even bringing down Skull Gorge Bridge itself are all completely optional.

And as said, the VP count itself is not really that granular in terms of outcomes. Over 40 VP, you win. Less than 40 VP, you don't. I accept the logic that not every decision needs to have a graduated or granular outcome, hell, hitpoints are the simplest method of telling us that, whatever the tactics chosen, eventually an encounter has to stop so everyone can go home. But the count is so written with utter incompetence or failure in mind that in practice it's very difficult for parties to fail (although - and I do concede this, to my amazement - it is not impossible to lose RHOD in this way. Jon_Dahl's campaign in the handbook is precisely that, albeit that was a fail party with a capital F written in neon.) It's a count that tries to make the campaign look like something other than linear when, in reality, it isn't. Not meaningfully, at least to my mind.

This will tie into Fiz's observations that if you're going to have fail conditions for the party, then you have to give some sort of opportunity to make them up. Which RHOD sure does - in spades - but I am still uncertain about whether the VP count is eve needed or whether it should be tinkered with on that aspect.

(EDIT: I have an unexamined hunch that VPs might be more meaningful if they can be lost or spent during the overall campaign for the party's personal benefit and at the cost of the Vale personally. e.g. expend 2 VP, but pick up some resource that helps only your group personally and puts some lovable NPC at risk. I think this only works if you make the party aware it's a deliberate choice they are making to spend VP for some advantage at the risk of harm later on, or to the wider campaign victory. There seems to be something in making these kinds of choices, but I haven't really thought about it in much detail beyond the thoughts I had about the Audience with the Lords.)

Again, there've been homebrew suggestions on how to address this weakness, and they really come down to turning the VP count into either an indication of levels of victory - ranging from outright destruction of any future hobgoblin threat to pyrrhic victories where the hobgoblins will have to be dug out of the western end of the Vale over the years to come - or by making the VPs a kingdom-building resource to be spent after the game for a notional continuation of the campaign where the players become the lords of Vraath or something.

And there's also my ... agnosticism ... over whether you're "meant to", or whether it adds to the experience, to be telling the players about the VP count as you go or not. How did you wife handle this one when she ran it, and how did the party receive it, if I might ask?

jmax

2022-07-29, 08:30 PM

Well, this brings on a couple of larger meta questions we debated back in the old handbook thread, which I might rehash by saying -- what exactly is the point of the Victory Point count anyway?

The handbook breaks down the totals, but as with the distances to be covered by the party, you really have to be an abject failure at just about everything to not have 40 VP after the final fight with Kharn.

Just killing Kharn, Saarvith, Koth, Ulwai, and Abithriax nets you 24 VP, i.e. over the halfway line. And these guys are all guaranteed to show up at Brindol even if you missed them elsewhere. You pick up another 10 from saving the walls, putting out fires, holding the Dawn Way, and killing Skather - again, encounters that are pretty much put directly across your path. So we're already at 34 VP. If you convince the Lords not to be complete fools strategically, there's another 8 VP right there, it's over, you have more than 40 VP and could - if your party's strong - literally go straight to Brindol, kick back for four weeks, and then win the whole campaign that way.

You don't have to forge any other alliance, you don't have to kill any dragon other than the red who shows up, and you still win it ... albeit the encounters are a lot tougher, presumably, what with the Ghostlord fully on board and having to deal with 5 level bosses at once in the final battle when you should have been cut down to one if you were going out doing lots of stuff. Rhest, the Stone Lion, hell, even bringing down Skull Gorge Bridge itself are all completely optional.

I think I have a good solution to the value of killing the commanders. Any commander who survives long enough to participate in the Battle of Brindol is worth only half the number of VP - they aren't available for any sort of regrouping or second assault, but they also were present to lead prongs of the army in the initial attack, making it far more effective than it would have been without them.

You should probably exclude Kharn and Abithriax from that penalty since the party doesn't really have an opportunity to eliminate them before the battle - but maybe you could drop some hints of opportune moments when the party could plan a surgical strike to try to knock them out early.

(Also - and this is mostly just amusing - it looks like the party can earn fully 38 VP without killing a single dragon or Wyrmlord by completing everything else with maximum success.)

And as said, the VP count itself is not really that granular in terms of outcomes. Over 40 VP, you win. Less than 40 VP, you don't. I accept the logic that not every decision needs to have a graduated or granular outcome, hell, hitpoints are the simplest method of telling us that, whatever the tactics chosen, eventually an encounter has to stop so everyone can go home. But the count is so written with utter incompetence or failure in mind that in practice it's very difficult for parties to fail (although - and I do concede this, to my amazement - it is not impossible to lose RHOD in this way. Jon_Dahl's campaign in the handbook is precisely that, albeit that was a fail party with a capital F written in neon.) It's a count that tries to make the campaign look like something other than linear when, in reality, it isn't. Not meaningfully, at least to my mind.

Again, there've been homebrew suggestions on how to address this weakness, and they really come down to turning the VP count into either an indication of levels of victory - ranging from outright destruction of any future hobgoblin threat to pyrrhic victories where the hobgoblins will have to be dug out of the western end of the Vale over the years to come - or by making the VPs a kingdom-building resource to be spent after the game for a notional continuation of the campaign where the players become the lords of Vraath or something.

I think you could do levels of victory in a way that's meaningful for the PCs long-term beyond just a resource to spend for material gain.

Let's use 40 points as the baseline for simplicity. I'm ignoring the actual cap on how many points there could be, because you can tinker with that anyway.

25: Catastrophic failure. The Red Hand completely overruns Brindol, slaughtering most of the city's defenders and half of the civilian population while sustaining minimal casualties. The city walls and many important structures remain intact, and the Red Hand has a strong bastion from which to conduct operations against Dennovar. If the PCs fall back to Dennovar with the survivors, they find themselves quickly run out of the city. Word of their failure spreads across the country, and they're greeted with varying degrees of skepticism and sometimes outright hostility wherever they go.
30: Defeat. The Red Hand overruns Brindol. A few thousand civilians manage to escape to Dennovar, and Brindols rulers make the difficult decision to burn as much of it to the ground as they can to deny the Red Hand a strong bastion where they can entrench and regroup for further expansion eastward. Many of the survivors blame the PCs for the city's fate.
35: Stalemate. The attack turns into an extended siege, and while eventually the Red Hand breaks from running out of food, the people of Brindol fare equally poorly. Large portions of the city burn. Thousands of human soldiers die in combat. Thousands of civilians starve. Thousands more die of disease from squalid conditions. While thousands of hobgoblins perished as well, there are still thousands more who could regroup and attack the Vale again in the future. The PCs are largely forgotten, those who would have recognized their contributions having been among the first to perish.
40: Pyrrhic victory. Brindol repels the Red Hand, but at grave cost. The city is badly damaged, with whole districts razed to the ground. There are thousands of casualties among the defenders and thousands more dead civilians. The PCs have made many friends among the surviving defenders, but most of the populace is too preoccupied with picking up the shattered remnants of their lives and families to feel gratitude.
45: Expensive victory. Brindol repels the Red Hand, and while the victory costs a horrific number of lives, the city is still mostly standing. While the city's rulers hail the PCs as heroes and grant the greatest reward they can spare (which isn't much), reactions among the populace range from tepid to outright resentful, with many impoverished survivors asserting the PCs put their own survival ahead of the city's defense.
50: Sound victory. Brindol repels the Red Hand. The city sustains some damage, but nothing catastrophic. There are many casualties, but there are still plenty of hands to rebuild. Most of the civilian population is spared. The PCs are hailed as heroes and rewarded handsomely.
55: Resounding victory. The Red Hand breaks itself against the walls of Brindol. The city sustains minimal damage and few casualties. The PCs are forever enshrined in memory as the city's saviors. Word of their achievement travels far and wide, attracting favorable attention from rulers of great cities like (assume Forgotten Realms) Silverymoon and Waterdeep - as well as a few individuals who are major world powers in their own right (elder good dragons, archmages, etc.). Doors open to them wherever they travel. The rulers of Brindol grant the PCs a sizeable cut of the weapons and armor recovered from the fallen hobgoblins; sold judiciously over time in the right areas, this works out to tens of thousands of gp each.

Essentially you tie not just their material fortunes but also their reputations to the outcome. There's also the potential warm fuzzy value of saving everyone and experiencing their gratitude - or the sour taste of being run out of town.

And there's also my ... agnosticism ... over whether you're "meant to", or whether it adds to the experience, to be telling the players about the VP count as you go or not. How did you wife handle this one when she ran it, and how did the party receive it, if I might ask?

(EDIT: I have an unexamined hunch that VPs might be more meaningful if they can be lost or spent during the overall campaign for the party's personal benefit and at the cost of the Vale personally. e.g. expend 2 VP, but pick up some resource that helps only your group personally and puts some lovable NPC at risk. I think this only works if you make the party aware it's a deliberate choice they are making to spend VP for some advantage at the risk of harm later on, or to the wider campaign victory. There seems to be something in making these kinds of choices, but I haven't really thought about it in much detail beyond the thoughts I had about the Audience with the Lords.)

I was vaguely aware that there was a points-based system because she mentioned it to me at home during prep, but nobody else knew about it, and I didn't know any details, including where we were relative to where we needed to be.

I think it would be a really awkward break in the fourth wall to spell it out in full to the players. You could do a decent abstraction by having the players receive intelligence/scouting reports about the army and its morale, provisions, etc., but then that makes it really hard to use VP as hard currency for trade-offs as suggested above. You could still do that as an abstraction, however: "You can take this potent magic item for yourselves, but then Captain Ulverth will be less effective leading the defenses from the front" or "You can claim the mercenary gold for yourselves as a reward for your services thus far, but then there won't be any money to hire the Shining Axes."

This will tie into Fiz's observations that if you're going to have fail conditions for the party, then you have to give some sort of opportunity to make them up. Which RHOD sure does - in spades - but I am still uncertain about whether the VP count is eve needed or whether it should be tinkered with on that aspect.

I think you could adjust the thresholds for VP-based outcomes to account for the level of difficulty you want for the campaign. Maybe establish the difficulty level during Session Zero. Requiring a minimum number of VP for a positive outcome essentially does create fail conditions - they're just overly generous, and as you say there are tons of ways to make up for them.

That said, squeezing the timeline based on early successes also can reduce the opportunities for later success without really being punitive. The party earns a lot of Victory Points early on (because you award VP for each town evacuated), and those are cemented, but they have less time to earn other points later. I think successfully evacuating towns provides a great excuse for that and isn't overly punishing given how generous the time allowance is in the first place.

ksbsnowowl

2022-08-01, 04:24 PM

I think you could do levels of victory in a way that's meaningful for the PCs long-term beyond just a resource to spend for material gain.

Let's use 40 points as the baseline for simplicity. I'm ignoring the actual cap on how many points there could be, because you can tinker with that anyway.

25: The Red Hand completely overruns Brindol, slaughtering most of the city's defenders and half of the civilian population while sustaining minimal casualties. The city walls and many important structures remain intact, and the Red Hand has a strong bastion from which to conduct operations against Dennovar. If the PCs fall back to Dennovar with the survivors, they find themselves quickly run out of the city. Word of their failure spreads across the country, and they're greeted with varying degrees of skepticism and sometimes outright hostility wherever they go.
30: The Red Hand overruns Brindol. A few thousand civilians manage to escape to Dennovar, and Brindols rulers make the difficult decision to burn as much of it to the ground as they can to deny the Red Hand a strong bastion where they can entrench and regroup for further expansion westward. Many of the survivors blame the PCs for the city's fate.
35: Stalemate. The attack turns into an extended siege, and while eventually the Red Hand breaks from running out of food, the people of Brindol fare equally poorly. Large portions of the city burn. Thousands of human soldiers die in combat. Thousands of civilians starve. Thousands more die of disease from squalid conditions. While thousands of hobgoblins perished as well, there are still thousands more who could regroup and attack the Vale again in the future. The PCs are largely forgotten, those who would have recognized their contributions having been among the first to perish.
40: Brindol repels the Red Hand, but at grave cost. The city is badly damaged, with whole districts razed to the ground. There are thousands of casualties among the defenders and thousands more dead civilians. The PCs have made many friends among the surviving defenders, but most of the populace is too preoccupied with picking up the shattered remnants of their lives and families to feel gratitude.
45: Brindol repels the Red Hand, and while the victory costs a horrific number of lives, the city is still mostly standing. While the city's rulers hail the PCs as heroes and grant the greatest reward they can spare (which isn't much), reactions among the populace range from tepid to outright resentful, with many impoverished survivors asserting the PCs put their own survival ahead of the city's defense.
50: Brindol repels the Red Hand. The city sustains some damage, but nothing catastrophic. There are many casualties, but there are still plenty of hands to rebuild. Most of the civilian population is spared. The PCs are hailed as heroes and rewarded handsomely.
55: The Red Hand breaks itself against the walls of Brindol. The city sustains minimal damage and few casualties. The PCs are forever enshrined in memory as the city's saviors. Word of their achievement travels far and wide, attracting favorable attention from rulers of great cities like (assume Forgotten Realms) Silverymoon and Waterdeep - as well as a few individuals who are major world powers in their own right (elder good dragons, archmages, etc.). Doors open to them wherever they travel. The rulers of Brindol grant the PCs a sizeable cut of the weapons and armor recovered from the fallen hobgoblins; sold judiciously over time in the right areas, this works out to tens of thousands of gp each.

Essentially you tie not just their material fortunes but also their reputations to the outcome. There's also the potential warm fuzzy value of saving everyone and experiencing their gratitude - or the sour taste of being run out of town.

This is FANTASTIC, and much more in-depth than my mind initially jumped to when you two first mentioned ‘degrees of success.’

Adding to the discussion of Victory Points and whether players have knowledge of them or not, I will throw my 2 coppers in. When I played RHoD in 2006, the DM only told us about the existence of the VP after the Battle of Brindol was completed. When I ran a reskinned version of RHoD in 2011, I did the same; only told the players about the VP’s after the conclusion of the climactic battle. I’m getting ready to run another reskinned RHoD in the coming months, and I plan to do the same, again.

I’m a big proponent of using RHoD as an excellent framework that can be reskinned to taste. My previous run of it was for a gestalt Viking campaign, where I leveled things up slightly, and swapped out every single monster for something else, turning it into a Tanarukk/troll army with demonic support. This time I’m going to take a bit of Warhammer inspiration, and make it a horde of Beastmen (using ibixians from MM3) for my by-then 7th level party.

I’m trying to remember what things I might have done to change the feel of the Red Hand from a Lawful evil regimented army to a Chaotic evil horde, but it’s been a decade, and I’ve had kids since then… sleep deprivation can sap your memory pretty bad. 😜

Any thoughts on what minor alterations to make to change the feel of the army from regimented to a chaotic horde?

I am going to change up the theme of the locations. Rather than Drellin’s Ferry being on the edge of a boggy forest, Drellin’s Valley will be a mining town in a mountainous region. Instead of a bridge, the party will be able to take out a mountain road with a landslide. Like I said, RHoD is a great and flexible framework that can be adapted to taste.

thorr-kan

2022-08-01, 04:56 PM

I’m trying to remember what things I might have done to change the feel of the Red Hand from a Lawful evil regimented army to a Chaotic evil horde, but it’s been a decade, and I’ve had kids since then… sleep deprivation can sap your memory pretty bad. 😜

Any thoughts on what minor alterations to make to change the feel of the army from regimented to a chaotic horde?
"and I’ve had kids since then…"

Really, what more inspiration for a CE horde do you need?

Joking aside, maybe less organization when pursuing combat with the heroes. More melee, more buffing spellcasting/less distance spellcasting, and less ranged weapons.

If bosses get killed, the horde stalls while the new leadership establishes their bonafides.

More of a personal retainer relationship between the leaders, their champions, and named monsters.

Seward

2022-08-01, 05:02 PM

Any thoughts on what minor alterations to make to change the feel of the army from regimented to a chaotic horde?

Temple of Elemental Evil (1st edition) is the best representation of an organized chaotic evil force I've seen in D&D.

Basically it expresses as factions and rivalries. It was an alliance of two very different evil deities, plus a couple opportunists (one a favorite of a third evil deity, the other a wizard+assassin team who had their own agenda). The main temple was completely secret, invented four other religions to be the front-men and they all competed with each other. Everybody gave lip service to the boss while trying to gain power and prestige, but often undercut each other, sometimes even (usually those competing poorly) setting up back-channels to the PCs to get them to clobber a rival.

With Tiamat, the obvious thing would be to have the Red Hand wyrmlords and their closest followers all be in competition with each other, and perhaps each identify with a particular chromatic dragon, ideally the one they're seen working with most often. Perhaps the arcanists like blue dragons (they favor lightning bolts, and their dragon wields a wand of fireballs), the vanguard troops (goblin riders, manticores etc) Green as Vrath's group was a vanguard, the Rhest types (mindbender, various dragonspawn, ogres/giants) favor black dragons, and the top military leaders and priests (they keep summoning hellhounds) red, and the spies/monks/infiltrators white dragon - we do after all never encounter a white dragon so perhaps it is smarter than the others and more stealthy, and never risks itself against pc's which would be a kind of cool twist. Have encounters where two groups are going for the same objective when the PCs interfere. As PC's gain victories that faction weakens within the horde, and perhaps they try to enlist the powerful PC's to level the playing field or alternately they organize angry assassination attempts with the remnants of their faction.

Given that the bugbear wyrmlord is an arcanist who favors lightning and is assigned to a vanguard group, possibly the reason that wyrmlord is in a keep and his green dragon is elsewhere is an expression of his dissatisfaction with being assigned to a bunch of stupid Greenies, and the Manticore+Minotaur are there to keep an eye on him for Ozzy. It would also explain how that wyrmlord is perfectly willing to bail on his entire force with no qualms, using them to buy time while he gathers his gear and flies off. Being a high cha sorcerer, he probably got that garrison to trust him, which might lead to bitter recriminations of any survivors "how could we have trusted a Blue?"

This might not be super obvious to the PCs if nobody speaks goblin and this only plays out in combat encounters, where coordination between factions goes poorly. Interrogations could reveal some of this but it could be made more obvious as some factions sacrifice others to the PC's to make escapes, or betrayal between factions starts using PCs as tools of choice.

Anyway just spitballing some ideas. When thinking chaotic think of a philosophy of "competition breeds strength" and chaotic evil being "If I'm not strong enough to keep my subordinates in line I don't deserve to lead, and I can't respect my subordinate if he doesn't try to betray me from time to time to get my spot."

jmax

2022-08-01, 08:29 PM

This is FANTASTIC, and much more in-depth than my mind initially jumped to when you two first mentioned ‘degrees of success.’

Glad you like it! I hadn't intended to put so much into that, but I sort of got carried away :-P

I’m a big proponent of using RHoD as an excellent framework that can be reskinned to taste. My previous run of it was for a gestalt Viking campaign, where I leveled things up slightly, and swapped out every single monster for something else, turning it into a Tanarukk/troll army with demonic support. This time I’m going to take a bit of Warhammer inspiration, and make it a horde of Beastmen (using ibixians from MM3) for my by-then 7th level party.

That's an interesting idea. I can see that working really well. It sort of reminds me of the way Brandon Sanderson talks about some of his early novel work, in which he moves entire plot arcs and character groups around between settings if something isn't working well with the big picture but it has really solid elements. I'm probably butchering that description something awful, but it basically seemed to boil down to treating characters and plots as modular pieces.

Saintheart

2022-08-02, 02:18 AM

Glad you like it! I hadn't intended to put so much into that, but I sort of got carried away :-P.

Please get carried away more often, this is great material that I'll be trying to work into the handbook somehow. :) It may take the form of a 'breakout' GoogleDoc or similar, covering both "breaking the fourth wall" and "keeping VP hidden" subjects, but it does deserve to get some specific recognition.

jmax

2022-08-02, 10:07 PM

Please get carried away more often, this is great material that I'll be trying to work into the handbook somehow. :) It may take the form of a 'breakout' GoogleDoc or similar, covering both "breaking the fourth wall" and "keeping VP hidden" subjects, but it does deserve to get some specific recognition.

Ok, I've got a few more things for you:

Award ad-hoc Victory Points for majorly degrading the Red Hand army in ways not mentioned in the module. For example, my druid used Ulwai's staff of Control Weather to rain hailstones on the army throughout the entire night before battle. Big, nasty hailstorm - the kind of hail that totals cars (https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/your-photos-of-hail-damage-to-cars-homes-april-28-2021/2619124/) and seriously damages buildings (https://www.hydro-clean.net/images/inner-pages/restoration/damages-of-hail-storm.jpg). The officers in their posh command tents were fine, but none of the rank-and-file soldiers got a decent night's sleep before the battle. Another option I held in reserve but didn't deploy (I think my wife asked me not to use it) was using a charge of the staff to lay a dense fog over the whole city if the Red Hand army attacked at night (which they did), using a wand or five of Fire Eyes to let the defenders on the wall see through it so they could spot ladders, siege towers, etc. Hobgoblins have darkvision, so fog would neutralize their sensory advantage in darkness. I would assert that each of those could be worth one Victory Point each.
Award ad-hoc Victory Points for major contributions the PCs make during the Battle of Brindol that aren't mentioned in the module. For example, when the Red Hand army made it's show of force forming up in full strength beyond arrow range and cutting loose with the intimidating drumming (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMsf-ruD80M), I dropped Call Avalanche on one of their blocks, killing nearly a thousand soldiers and causing enough havoc to disrupt the drum show. (Remember what you said about 5th-level spells during the Battle of Brindol? Yeah, that.) It made a meaningful dent in the enemy army, and it also provided a measurable shift in the balance of morale. That could also be worth a Victory Point - maybe even two, one for the kills and one for the morale impact on the troops on both sides.
I think I mentioned this earlier - I'd also give Victory Points for successfully evacuating towns. Probably one point per town for getting the people to evacuate and another point if there was enough time for the evacuees to get their foodstores out. Successful evacuations mean more defenders for Brindol, and evacuating the food denies resupply opportunities for the Red Hand army while also bolstering Brindol for a longer siege. As a downside, though, the army's time to reach Brindol is reduced by one day per Victory Point earned this way (one day that would be spent slaughtering the populace and another that would be spent pillaging the food), getting them to Brindol that much faster and therefore potentially denying the PCs opportunities to earn Victory Points elsewhere.

And of course from the beginning you might adjust the number of Victory Points needed for each level of result depending on how much you're adjusting the opportunities and how hard you want to make the whole arc. I would definitely use intelligence/scouting reports to keep the PCs informed of the state of affairs in an abstract way.

Examples:

"The Red Hand army is cranky, demoralized, and hungry. Discipline is starting to degrade, and several hundred soldiers appear to have deserted. However, they're still marching at a good clip, extra motivated by diminishing food stores - at their current speed, they'll likely reach Brindol in ten days."
"The hobgoblins' spirits are high. They've successfully sacked three towns and captured enough food to keep them going at full rations. They'll likely reach Brindol in two weeks, well fed and rested and eager for war." (Depending on how brutal you want the hobgoblins to be, maybe they've taken prisoners for meals on the go.)

Satirical Bard

2022-08-02, 11:08 PM

I think you could do levels of victory in a way that's meaningful for the PCs long-term beyond just a resource to spend for material gain.

Let's use 40 points as the baseline for simplicity. I'm ignoring the actual cap on how many points there could be, because you can tinker with that anyway.

25: The Red Hand completely overruns Brindol, slaughtering most of the city's defenders and half of the civilian population while sustaining minimal casualties. The city walls and many important structures remain intact, and the Red Hand has a strong bastion from which to conduct operations against Dennovar. If the PCs fall back to Dennovar with the survivors, they find themselves quickly run out of the city. Word of their failure spreads across the country, and they're greeted with varying degrees of skepticism and sometimes outright hostility wherever they go.
30: The Red Hand overruns Brindol. A few thousand civilians manage to escape to Dennovar, and Brindols rulers make the difficult decision to burn as much of it to the ground as they can to deny the Red Hand a strong bastion where they can entrench and regroup for further expansion eastward. Many of the survivors blame the PCs for the city's fate.
35: Stalemate. The attack turns into an extended siege, and while eventually the Red Hand breaks from running out of food, the people of Brindol fare equally poorly. Large portions of the city burn. Thousands of human soldiers die in combat. Thousands of civilians starve. Thousands more die of disease from squalid conditions. While thousands of hobgoblins perished as well, there are still thousands more who could regroup and attack the Vale again in the future. The PCs are largely forgotten, those who would have recognized their contributions having been among the first to perish.
40: Brindol repels the Red Hand, but at grave cost. The city is badly damaged, with whole districts razed to the ground. There are thousands of casualties among the defenders and thousands more dead civilians. The PCs have made many friends among the surviving defenders, but most of the populace is too preoccupied with picking up the shattered remnants of their lives and families to feel gratitude.
45: Brindol repels the Red Hand, and while the victory costs a horrific number of lives, the city is still mostly standing. While the city's rulers hail the PCs as heroes and grant the greatest reward they can spare (which isn't much), reactions among the populace range from tepid to outright resentful, with many impoverished survivors asserting the PCs put their own survival ahead of the city's defense.
50: Brindol repels the Red Hand. The city sustains some damage, but nothing catastrophic. There are many casualties, but there are still plenty of hands to rebuild. Most of the civilian population is spared. The PCs are hailed as heroes and rewarded handsomely.
55: The Red Hand breaks itself against the walls of Brindol. The city sustains minimal damage and few casualties. The PCs are forever enshrined in memory as the city's saviors. Word of their achievement travels far and wide, attracting favorable attention from rulers of great cities like (assume Forgotten Realms) Silverymoon and Waterdeep - as well as a few individuals who are major world powers in their own right (elder good dragons, archmages, etc.). Doors open to them wherever they travel. The rulers of Brindol grant the PCs a sizeable cut of the weapons and armor recovered from the fallen hobgoblins; sold judiciously over time in the right areas, this works out to tens of thousands of gp each.

Essentially you tie not just their material fortunes but also their reputations to the outcome. There's also the potential warm fuzzy value of saving everyone and experiencing their gratitude - or the sour taste of being run out of town.

This is BRILLIANT. I had a very vague version of something like this already in my mind, because I wanted that 'degrees of success' for my group, so this is really helpful for clarifying what those degrees of success could actually look like. I strongly support this being added to the handbook!

Saintheart

2022-08-03, 02:17 AM

This is BRILLIANT. I had a very vague version of something like this already in my mind, because I wanted that 'degrees of success' for my group, so this is really helpful for clarifying what those degrees of success could actually look like. I strongly support this being added to the handbook!

It occurred to me that another really interesting change/customisation can be made from this list of outcomes while the campaign is progressing is that the course of the Battle of Brindol itself can be altered or varied depending on how many VPs the characters have by the time the Red Hand shows up.

If you hit every mark prior to the Battle, then by the time the Battle of Brindol starts parties can already have up to a maximum of 53 VPs. So depending on whether the party's got 15, 25, 35, or 40+ VP before the Battle changes the Battle of Brindol encounters themselves. For example:

>=15 VP - you have the Battle of Brindol with extra horror. Streets of Blood is the party holding an intersection with two waves hitting them at once. Abithriax's rampage is over the Cathedral of Pelor and its field hospital outside on the lawn ... which he's burning. The 'Save the Walls' encounter is at Brindol Keep after the Brindolese have retreated to it as a last ditch defence, and the Final Battle is Kharn breaking down the front door of the keep. Skather's assault is more like trying to combat a predator as he ruthlessly hunts a stranded wagon full of loveable NPCs.

25 VP - default RHOD Battle of Brindol by the book; the Red Hand breaks through as it does in the original book and the final battle is on the steps of the Cathedral of Pelor.

35 VP - the Brindolese kill the second bunch of giants without the wall falling. Skather's encounter remains unchanged, but the red dragon assault, Streets of Blood, and final battle are all contests for one of Brindol's gates rather than streets or Cathedrals. (This one closely resembles the flow of one of my own campaigns, and I can vouch it does work.)

40+ VP - the Brindolese kill the second bunch of giants without the wall falling and hold the second gate. The red dragon assault is a desperation assault on Brindol's well-defended keep to try and shake the defenders' resolve, Streets of Blood is on a section of Brindol's wall rather than on a street, and the final battle is a last desperate attempt by Kharn to rally his wavering troops at the gate (or indeed on the section of wall where the PCs are.) Skather's encounter is a hide-and-seek trying to track down and kill the assassin before he escapes, having failed to kill any of the leadership.

This then dovetails with the idea that different VP results have different outcomes to the overall result of the game, as well as rewarding the PCs for their tactical, campaign-based choices earlier on. Sure, it means a bit more work, but it also makes the campaign more, well, personal to the party.

Satirical Bard

2022-08-03, 04:25 AM

That makes a lot of sense, and builds on what's already in the book with regard to the 4th and 5th waves of Streets of Blood hinging on the outcomes in Rhest and the Ghostlord's Lair, as well as the absence/presence of the various wyrmlords and dragons (and the Ghostlord himself).

But given I assume 95%+ of parties in games running basically by-the-book will have completed the set missions, with the only real variable being whether any wyrmlords or dragons escaped and can reappear in Brindol, I'm not sure it's necessary to have too much work prepared for all the potential alternative scenarios, but your rough framework is definitely helpful as a reference point.

On the reverse side, it seems to me that the Battle is unwinnable by a regular party if it involves fighting additional wyrmlords, dragons, razorfiends, ghost lions, bonedrinkers, and a freaking lich!

I also wouldn't necessarily want to have a high VP count allow the PCs to bypass the encounters largely as written, mainly because I think the story needs that sense of overwhelming force and desperate resistance. And given PCs won't know they are fighting on the walls instead of the streets as a reward, it only really makes sense if the encounter is then made easier. But at that point, we run in to a dilemma of game design, which is that an easier combat is not really a reward for players, because epic battles are more engaging, fun and memorable than easy battles!

Saintheart

2022-08-03, 06:50 AM

jmax

2022-08-03, 07:22 AM

It occurred to me that another really interesting change/customisation can be made from this list of outcomes while the campaign is progressing is that the course of the Battle of Brindol itself can be altered or varied depending on how many VPs the characters have by the time the Red Hand shows up.

If you hit every mark prior to the Battle, then by the time the Battle of Brindol starts parties can already have up to a maximum of 53 VPs. So depending on whether the party's got 15, 25, 35, or 40+ VP before the Battle changes the Battle of Brindol encounters themselves. For example:

>=15 VP - you have the Battle of Brindol with extra horror. Streets of Blood is the party holding an intersection with two waves hitting them at once. Abithriax's rampage is over the Cathedral of Pelor and its field hospital outside on the lawn ... which he's burning. The 'Save the Walls' encounter is at Brindol Keep after the Brindolese have retreated to it as a last ditch defence, and the Final Battle is Kharn breaking down the front door of the keep. Skather's assault is more like trying to combat a predator as he ruthlessly hunts a stranded wagon full of loveable NPCs.

25 VP - default RHOD Battle of Brindol by the book; the Red Hand breaks through as it does in the original book and the final battle is on the steps of the Cathedral of Pelor.

35 VP - the Brindolese kill the second bunch of giants without the wall falling. Skather's encounter remains unchanged, but the red dragon assault, Streets of Blood, and final battle are all contests for one of Brindol's gates rather than streets or Cathedrals. (This one closely resembles the flow of one of my own campaigns, and I can vouch it does work.)

40+ VP - the Brindolese kill the second bunch of giants without the wall falling and hold the second gate. The red dragon assault is a desperation assault on Brindol's well-defended keep to try and shake the defenders' resolve, Streets of Blood is on a section of Brindol's wall rather than on a street, and the final battle is a last desperate attempt by Kharn to rally his wavering troops at the gate (or indeed on the section of wall where the PCs are.) Skather's encounter is a hide-and-seek trying to track down and kill the assassin before he escapes, having failed to kill any of the leadership.

This then dovetails with the idea that different VP results have different outcomes to the overall result of the game, as well as rewarding the PCs for their tactical, campaign-based choices earlier on. Sure, it means a bit more work, but it also makes the campaign more, well, personal to the party.

Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines but hadn't articulated it. It's sort of where I was going with the wyrms and wyrmlords being worth only half VP if you kill them at Brindol instead of before, but I do really like changing the stakes for each of those encounters. This is really solid.

I think I misstated myself there - I wasn't saying to bypass the encounters, just change the windowdressing somewhat, change the location mostly. In a Brindol that's almost completely ready for the assault, the Streets of Blood encounter happens at one of Brindol's gates, rather than down a street.

It doesn't have to be just window-dressing. If you're doing levels of victory based on my template, you can either amplify the amount of VP for winning those encounters or grant half credit even if the PCs lose or skip them. Those encounters are worth 10 VP total, So if you start out with 40 before the Battle of Brindol even begins and get half credit even for flubbing them, you automatically end up with at least 45 VP (expensive victory) even if the PCs take a nap and sit out the whole battle - the city is just that much better shape. If they at least manage to take out Kharn, they hit at least the 50 threshold (sound victory), and if they kill Abithriax as well, they still get the best outcome (55+; total victory).

That also has some other interesting implications, because it lets you do some things concurrently and force the PCs to choose which threats to attend to personally - without compromising their overall victory.

EDIT: I added two-word labels to each of the outcome levels for easy reference. I recommend including those in the handbook.

ksbsnowowl

2022-08-04, 07:03 PM

That's an interesting idea. I can see that working really well. It sort of reminds me of the way Brandon Sanderson talks about some of his early novel work, in which he moves entire plot arcs and character groups around between settings if something isn't working well with the big picture but it has really solid elements. I'm probably butchering that description something awful, but it basically seemed to boil down to treating characters and plots as modular pieces.

Interesting. I didn’t know Sanderson had said/done that, but I can see how it would have worked well in writing his Cosmere setting.

Regardless of if your description was accurate to Sanderson’s work process, the description is appropriate for how I view Red Hand of Doom. The bones of the adventure are REALLY solid; I’m sure many of us see it as the best D&D module ever written. The adventure all (except the Fane, perhaps) works really well. The story Baker and Jacobs wrote is good. But the story and the framework of the adventure are different halves of the whole. The story can be changed while leaving the solid framework intact. Strip away the “window dressing” of hobgoblins, dragons, and Tiamat, and you’re left with a great starting point to craft your own adventure, flavored to taste.

Think of the adventure as a generalized flow chart.
Ambush on the road —> semi-remote town —> wilderness —> Army’s forward scouting base (Vraath Keep) —> secondary forward base/choke point (bridge) —> attack on remote town —> Army raiding & pillaging/Party evacuating towns —> army movement toward climactic battle location —> investigate secondary, off-the-beaten-path location where Army is breeding monsters for the main assault —> find blackmail item —> meet/recruit potential allies —> investigate tertiary location indicated on map, base of blackmailed Army ally —> solve Big Bad Evil Ally blackmail situation —> audience with the Lords —> climactic battle —> investigate Army home base —> deal with fiendish interlopers and BBEG.

Treating it in this manner allows you to see more possibilities, and opens up how you can utilize the adventure. It can be adapted to a wildly-different campaign world/map very easily.

Last time I largely stuck to that flow chart. There were setting/flavor alterations that changed it up a bit, though. Some were just map-influenced differences (Rhest was now on something akin to the Svalbard archipelago; the party had to take a longship to get there), while others changed the framework structure a bit more.

The semi-remote town (Drellin’s Ferry) became two semi-remote towns about 3 days’ travel apart, separated by a ravine with a bridge. The party’s “home base” (‘Drellin’s Ferry’) was the smaller of the two towns, and the party was worried about slowing the army reaching the second, smaller town, figuring the first town was a lost cause, so evacuated what they could of the first town, then collapsed the bridge between them, then tried to put up resistance (cue ‘Massacre at Drellin’s Ferry’ waves of bad guys).

Another big change was that this area of my world was peppered with menhir circles, much like the Forgotten Realms’ Yuirwood. I had incorporated the Master of the Yuirwood PrC as an ancient order in the region, as well as the Menhir portal rules (FRCS and UE). The trollish Tanarukk army made use of the malfunctioning portal activation aspect of the menhirs to their advantage to speed their travel somewhat. Most of the Red Hand’s movement occurs off-screen anyway; doing this added more tension if the PC’s discovered it, and gave them one more opportunity to slow the army (assassinate the half-elf hostages the army is going to use to activate the menhirs?)

Those are the big changes to the framework I made to the first 3 chapters of the framework. Slight alterations to structure, lots of alternations to the flavor and ‘window dressing,’ and it was a completely different-feeling campaign than RHoD as written.

This upcoming time the setting flavor will be a lot more similar to the published adventure than last time (though still different, being a chaotic horde of Beastmen), but I’m going to make a lot more changes to the framework.

I’m starting them at 7th level, regular, non-Gestalt characters. I’m going to completely omit the Rhest and Ghostlord side-quests and storylines (thus, they’ll still be ~9th level for the ‘Battle of Brindol’), just because that’s all the time I want this campaign to run for this time (and it will help disguise the similarity when I do run RHoD as written in a few years). Skull Gorge Bridge will be split into a border fortification on the mountainous edge of the country the Party will be defending, with a separate (relatively nearby) mountain pass that the party will be able to block via an avalanche. I’m planning that the party will clear out the Beastmen from the boarder fort, then help hold that fort as the ‘massacre at Drellin’s Ferry’ encounter vignette. Then I’m planning for their Drellin’s Ferry remote town location to be the location for the ‘Battle of Brindol,’ but fully realizing they may chose to abandon it to pull back to ‘Dennovar’ (which is the city they’re currently adventuring in, Brindinford from Speaker in Dreams). Basically I’m just leaving the possibilities open.

As I mentioned before, I’m taking a lot of inspiration from Warhammer’s Beastmen for this army horde. In that lore, basically there were Chaos meteors that crashed down and caused the mutation of humans into Beastmen within the regions that were struck. For my iteration, the ‘Fane of Tiamat’ will be in the region that was recently struck by a meteor. It was a human mountain town that had a Svirfneblin community underneath it. The Fane will be the surviving halls and tunnels of the Svirfneblin settlement, now broken open and exposed by the crater from the meteor strike. I will be modeling much of it off the 2e Hellgate Keep adventure location. The party will have to assault it to learn the truth of the horde’s origins, and stop them from rebuilding their numbers…

This got longer than I intended, but I hope it illustrates how adaptable Red Hand of Doom can be. Adjust the framework a bit, and completely reskin the adventure, and you can rerun it with the same group, and there’s a fair chance they won’t even notice you are ‘rerunning’ the ‘same’ adventure.

jmax

2022-08-04, 07:16 PM

Interesting. I didn’t know Sanderson had said/done that, but I can see how it would have worked well in writing his Cosmere setting.

Details: brandonsanderson.com: Warbreaker Prime (https://www.brandonsanderson.com/warbreaker-prime-mythwalker-prologue/)

Regardless of if your description was accurate to Sanderson’s work process, the description is appropriate for how I view Red Hand of Doom. The bones of the adventure are REALLY solid; I’m sure many of us see it as the best D&D module ever written. The adventure all (except the Fane, perhaps) works really well. The story Baker and Jacobs wrote is good. But the story and the framework of the adventure are different halves of the whole. The story can be changed while leaving the solid framework intact. Strip away the “window dressing” of hobgoblins, dragons, and Tiamat, and you’re left with a great starting point to craft your own adventure, flavored to taste.

Think of the adventure as a generalized flow chart.
Ambush on the road —> semi-remote town —> wilderness —> Army’s forward scouting base (Vraath Keep) —> secondary forward base/choke point (bridge) —> attack on remote town —> Army raiding & pillaging/Party evacuating towns —> army movement toward climactic battle location —> investigate secondary, off-the-beaten-path location where Army is breeding monsters for the main assault —> find blackmail item —> meet/recruit potential allies —> investigate tertiary location indicated on map, base of blackmailed Army ally —> solve Big Bad Evil Ally blackmail situation —> audience with the Lords —> climactic battle —> investigate Army home base —> deal with fiendish interlopers and BBEG.

That is a really interesting way to do it. It sort of reminds me of how people say all movies from the last several decades follow the same basic formula - and yet it still manages to produce significantly entertaining movies that (often) feel novel.

Hmm. Now I want to read Way of Kings Prime (https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-way-of-kings-prime/).

Saintheart

2022-08-05, 04:03 AM

That is a really interesting way to do it. It sort of reminds me of how people say all movies from the last several decades follow the same basic formula - and yet it still manages to produce significantly entertaining movies that (often) feel novel.

I think it certainly warrants entry in the adaptation section, and it's going in there shortly.

As for the whole discussion on VPs, I've condensed it all down into a GoogleDocs document right here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1owNxu2xbdRiyyd8AraVs-LtWu8xUrUgbJWJ1JN-TYNk/edit?usp=sharing), with all the good stuff in it, and I'll get it into the Handbook shortly.

jmax

2022-08-05, 07:30 AM

I think it certainly warrants entry in the adaptation section, and it's going in there shortly.

As for the whole discussion on VPs, I've condensed it all down into a GoogleDocs document right here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1owNxu2xbdRiyyd8AraVs-LtWu8xUrUgbJWJ1JN-TYNk/edit?usp=sharing), with all the good stuff in it, and I'll get it into the Handbook shortly.

This is excellent! I have a few minor comments that would probably be easier to make as actual comments on the actual document, so I'm asking for Comment access (the request always comes in as asking for Edit, but just give me Comment so I can't fat-finger anything by accident). That will also let me put in draft edits to tighten up some of the writing in my Levels of Victory.

Have you considered using Google Docs for the whole handbook and just linking it from the main thread? There are a couple of benefits to that:

Most notably that you never have to worry about another Great Forgetting. I don't think Rich would ever deliberately purge the GitP forums like Wizards of the Coast did with theirs, but good IT infrastructure management takes real time and money, and sometimes Stuff Happens that nobody intends.
Having a single document or set of documents that just get linked around means you avoid duplication of information - and therefore you never have to worry about keeping multiple copies synced up, especially from someone (including you) mirrors your handbook to another board.
You avoid the limitations on post and thread length.
It's much easier for people to download the handbook for offline use and still keep all the formatting and such.
It's just plain easier to make a nice document quickly and keep it nice.
It's much easier to incorporate contributions from multiple people.

There are some potential downsides. I don't know if it's still the case, but back when I had crappy hardware I had problems opening very long Google Docs on my computer. With everything optimized for mobile now, I think that shouldn't be an issue, but if it is, that potentially excludes people who can't afford modern toys. My gut feeling is also that posts show up better in search engines than Docs, mostly because my Shapechange handbook only shows up in Google searches as the post and not the document - but I also just realized that I never invoked "Publish to the web", so that could be it. I just tried that, so we'll see in the next few days if anything changes once I update my post/signature links.

Anyway, just food for thought with regard to publishing medium.

EDIT: "Publish to the web" in Google Docs turns it into an HTML render and loses a lot of nice formatting and the handy navigation pane on the left. Bleh. You really need that navigation pane to get around my Shapechange handbook efficiently, so I'll probably just leave it as a vanilla Google Docs link.

Saintheart

2022-08-05, 08:19 AM

This is excellent! I have a few minor comments that would probably be easier to make as actual comments on the actual document, so I'm asking for Comment access (the request always comes in as asking for Edit, but just give me Comment so I can't fat-finger anything by accident). That will also let me put in draft edits to tighten up some of the writing in my Levels of Victory.

I've opened it to comments outright, so you should be able to scribble there.

As for putting the whole handbook on GoogleDocs - I'm certainly considering it. I've got at least one other handbook out there (Critical Hits Handbook) so it's possible.

ksbsnowowl

2022-08-05, 03:17 PM

I think it certainly warrants entry in the adaptation section, and it's going in there shortly.

I’m flattered. ☺️

As for the whole discussion on VPs, I've condensed it all down into a GoogleDocs document right here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1owNxu2xbdRiyyd8AraVs-LtWu8xUrUgbJWJ1JN-TYNk/edit?usp=sharing), with all the good stuff in it, and I'll get it into the Handbook shortly.

You mentioned in that doc (I think from jmax) about altering the Streets of Blood to the top of the city wall if the party has a sizable number of VP’s before the battle of Brindol. I can attest that this approach absolutely works; I did this in my Norse-themed Viking RHoD campaign a decade ago (the one with the Tanarukks), largely because the location of the climactic battle in my campaign adaptation wasn’t at a normally-populated place with streets and lots of buildings. But there was a wall.

This is a good example of how mutable RHoD can be. Just analyze each encounter, and distill it down to its most basic elements.

The first time I ran RHoD, the Blackwater Causeway Hydra encounter was changed to a Shambling Mound as the party followed tracks from the Marauder Ambush site through a marshy area, toward Vraath Keep. I did this because I had restricted real-world mythological monsters that were not from Celtic or Scandinavian folklore from even existing in that world. It was a flavor choice for that campaign, but it meant no hydras.

This upcoming time, the Blackwater Causeway encounter will be on a mountain road heading up toward a pass over the mountains. The scenery is changed out, and I plan to change the monster to something more appropriate to the terrain. Maybe a chimera or something a little goofy, like a half-dragon displacer beast (probably the latter). I specifically want to avoid using a hydra, as I plan to run a ‘clean’ version of RHoD for this same group in about 2 years. The encounter as written has lots of difficult terrain involved to slow movement, though it may not come into play, as the hydra approaches to attack the PC’s, but will attack with reach if the PC’s position themselves to allow it, lining the front edge of the walkway.

That encounter has:

A slippery pathway that might require Balance checks.
Difficult terrain to slow movement if the party leaves the path.
A monster that has 6 fairly damaging attacks (+8 attack bonus, 1d10+3 damage).

Altering this to mountainous terrain, you have a mountain road covered in pebbles and scree that causes similar skill check requirements (plus, I think natural cave floors increase Balance and Tumble DC’s by +2, IIRC; this disused road would be in similar condition), and I’ll set it up as a road cut into the slope of a mountain, so there is a drop off on one side. The drop off isn’t a sheer cliff, but a slope covered in scree. The flying monster will initiate combat by bull rushing one PC off the edge, inflicting a small amount of falling damage, and requiring DC 2 Climb checks to ascend back to the road (DC 0 for a slope too steep to walk up, +2 for the scree). There would also be a scree-covered upward slope on the other side of the road.

For the monster, I may go with a Chimera, a CR 7 monster with 5 attacks (at +12 or +10 to hit) and varying damage that works out to an average similar to the Hydra (8.5 damage per bite, vs. 7.8 average per attack, plus a weak breath weapon). Yes, it’s a CR 7 Chimera vs. a CR 5 Hydra, but keep in mind my party will be 7th level at the adventure start, rather than 5th level.

You can obviously completely eject any encounter and replace it with one or two encounters that don’t in any way resemble the encounter you’re replacing. But the pacing and challenge of the encounters as written are pretty good. There’s no reason to create encounters from whole cloth (unless you want to), when you can deconstruct the provided encounters and use their structure to inform your encounter-building choices, just as you can deconstruct the whole adventure, and build your reflavored adventure on that existing framework.

jmax

2022-08-05, 10:23 PM

I added a Suggested section with recommendations on what to do if the PCs die in or before the Battle of Brindol. The module assumes that the PCs live to fight and prevail against Kharn because "the only other outcomes are ignominious retreat or their bloody deaths at Kharn's murderous hands." However, this module isn't only about the PCs - it's an epic, not a dungeon crawl. I feel like the PCs' contributions should still matter even if they don't live to see them. If nothing else, it at least avoids an anticlimactic non-ending, and it allows you more flexibility to let the PCs feel the consequences of ignoring the wyrmlords and the Ghostlord instead of going through contortions to keep the Final Battle from being too tough.

Saintheart

2022-08-06, 07:27 AM

Saintheart

2022-08-30, 09:43 AM

Well, for want of anything else to do and just in case someone might be able to use this for their own campaigns:

I adapted the Elsir Vale map for a winter-ish environment. It's below (warning, the file is 4.75 Meg so may take a few minutes to load. And it's a big map too.)

https://images2.imgbox.com/cc/c3/OSvhnxDv_o.jpg

I hand-drew this map using some Jared Blando techniques, then did some very basic image adjustments in Photoshop. This is for another RHOD campaign I have in mind, really written for my own homebrew setting in which winter never ended - but it might assist. It's not labelled with town names if people want to give theirs setting-appropriate names. Haven't coloured it since it works better with my endless-winter setting.

In terms of the geographical features - which I would name since they're probably not clear beyond the obvious stuff - there's some differences between the original Elsir Vale map and this one.

In the northeast and northwest corners, the weird, lined formations are actually meant to represent glaciers.
In the southwest corner, I replaced the Thornwaste with an iceberg-choked bay. I had in mind the Ghostlord lives on a remote island in this bay and it's his endlessly-cold presence that keeps the bay from thawing.
In the southeast corner, I replaced the plains near Dennovar with another bay that's free of icebergs, i.e. Dennovar becomes a port rather than a random second city in the Vale whose presence is not really touched on in the default book.
The Vale now has a much bigger wood in its centre which serves to isolate some of the towns a bit more. This could make for at least one or two interesting choices if, for example, the players want to balance speed against safety on how the Shining Axes get from the Hammerfist Holds to Brindol.
In the north end, Lake Rhestin I had figured hasn't frozen over despite being smack bang between two glaciers because of some sort of volcanic/hot springs activity that keeps the lake perpetually just above 0 degrees. Or maybe there's no explanation except magic for it. Reinforcements come down the Old Rhest Trail from, say, another coastal principality further up.

The Dawn Way is the finely dotted line running from east to west. I had in mind the trade coming east to Drellin's Ferry is basically furs, ivory, etc, gathered from hunters working the glacier in the northwest which supports a plethora of crazy, harvestable wildlife.

Anyway - I hope people like the map and hope someone finds use for it. Elsir Vale in a setting-neutral Arctic environment.

Ashiel

2022-08-30, 10:10 PM

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out already (I may have simply overlooked it), but scaling the adventure for parties of difference sizes (or even for different levels) is actually quite easy with some simple math. You can even do this to create a hybrid of the two presented options in Post #11 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25434810&postcount=11) rather than going with only one or the other (the benefit being you can sandbox it AND scale it to the party).

The Scaling Formula Explained
In 3.x D&D, the CR to APL conversion is 2 * x = x+2 (so a pair of CR 3 creatures is a CR 5 encounter). With mixed pairings, CR x + x-3 = CR x+1 (so a CR 5 creature with a CR 2 creature is a CR 6 encounter).

Pathfinder retains this exact same formula, it just simplifies it with an XP budget (which can be found on the PF-SRD: Gamemastering page (http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/gamemastering.html)) that can be used interchangeably with 3.x for GMs whose eyes glaze over when trying to comprehend the "3-1: encounter numbers" chart on pg. 49 of the 3.5 DMG.

Unaffected Awards: You do not have to use XP values as they are written in Pathfinder (that is, you can still use 3.x D&D's relative XP values for awarding XP). Instead, you can just budget your encounter using the XP values presented in the Pathfinder by thinking of the listed XP values as "encounter points" or something to that regard, which I will use as the terminology (or simply "points") in this post henceforth to avoid people playing 3.x becoming confused by "XP Points" being different values.

Adjusting for Varying Party Sizes: With that being explained, it's worth noting that when dealing with parties of varying sizes (anything that's not 4 player characters), you can simply adjust the point value of the encounter by -25% per player below 4, and +25% per player above 4, more or less indefinitely.

Examples of Use
Let's say hypothetically we want an encounter with goblin wolf riders that will come out to APL+1 (whatever the party's level is +1, so if the party is 5th level, it's a CR 6 encounter, and so on). We also want to scale it for the number of players in the party, more or less regardless of how many of them there are. If our party is 5th level, we look at the PF-SRD: Gamemastering page (http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/gamemastering.html) and see that a CR 6 encounter is worth 2,400 points. That's 600 points worth of enemies per player (so 600 points worth of enemies would be a CR 6 encounter for a single 5th level player, while 4,800 points worth of enemies would be a CR 6 encounter for an 8 player party).

You can use this method to very quickly "paint" enemies, traps, and hazards into an encounter from a "palette" of enemies (such as a monster manual or NPC gallery present in an adventure). Having a few variants of the types of enemies that are available can be helpful when scaling for higher or lower levels and/or for parties of larger or smaller size.

For example, the narrative of goblins riding wolves is the core of the above encounter. However, in its weakest form it might just be 2nd level goblin warriors riding wolves (as described above). Of course, for higher level parties it might be the army's elite cavalry consisting of 4th level goblin warriors riding on the backs of worgs instead of wolves. You might also fill in the gaps and mix stuff up in encounters as well, such as adding a cleric to a band of hobgoblin fighters when scaling for a larger party (adding a bit more tactical depth to the encounter at the same time).

When scaling for boss encounters, having a few variations of the generals at different power levels can be helpful as well. For example, you could have a bugbear sorcerer at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level for whether or not the character is faced early in the campaign or late in the campaign, or to use when scaled for different sized parties. When scaling for larger parties, adding minions to the boss (such as giving the bugbear sorcerer a set of hobgoblin retainers, or a pair of goblin apprentice sorcerers) is generally a better method than simply increasing the level of an individual foe.

For certain encounters against major foes, such as a certain dragon on a bridge, you might also consider adding activatable "traps" to an encounter that could allow players to leverage an advantage against a foe that is too strong to face at their level, making it a bit more of a puzzle encounter, or both. For example, if you happen to fight a dragon on a bridge at a level earlier than expected, you could scatter a few ballistae along the edges of the bridge that were to be moved across by the army. These ballistae, built using the core trap rules, could be separated into different locations and activated by the player characters to inflict some major damage the dragon (a trap that launches a giant bolt with a +20 to hit, for 6d6 damage, with a DC 0 detect, DC 0 to disable, and a manual 1 round reload is a CR 3 trap and can poke a dragon really good).

Adding things like move-able cover objects (such as battering rams with tower-shields on them that can be wheeled around to prevent the dragon from breathing on them from the protected direction (until the rams are dissolved by the breath weapon) would be another example of a way that rather than changing the power of the enemy you change the circumstances of the battle.

Saintheart

2022-08-31, 12:19 AM

^^^^

The above are not only really helpful and appreciated comments for running RHOD, but also generally in 3.5. Many thanks for the time and thoughts!

Ashiel

2022-08-31, 12:24 PM

^^^^

The above are not only really helpful and appreciated comments for running RHOD, but also generally in 3.5. Many thanks for the time and thoughts!

You're very welcome. IMHO, probably the greatest adjustment that Pathfinder brought along was simplifying some of the more esoteric aspects of the game. I have many good things to say about 3.x, including that the encounter scaling works quite well. However, the way it was explained - while accurate - is extremely hard for most people to understand (I myself struggled to comprehend it when I was younger). Approaching the game using an encounter budget is a lot easier for most people to visualize and comprehend.

In fact, with the knowledge gained over the years as to the meta for 3.5 (such as crafting magic items using XP costs not actually hindering PCs at all due to the way XP awards work in 3.x and sometimes even pushing the crafter ahead of the rest of the party in XP as a result), I personally believe that adopting the Pathfinder experience system (and adjustments to magic item XP costs) is a good choice for otherwise normal 3.x games. It just works better.

Just For Gits and Shiggles
Incidentally, if for some reason people would rather not adopt the Pathfinder system because they like the idea that creatures and challenges are worth more or less XP relative to their level, that is actually quite easy to patch back into Pathfinder if so desired, because the 3.x adjustments follow a specific formula, and this formula can be applied to any XP value in the game. I don't actually recommend doing this and I'll explain why at the bottom of the post.

The formula for scaling XP values is as follows.

Increased CR
XP Multiplier
Reduced CR
XP Multiplier

Level
XP × 1
Level
XP ÷ 1

Level +1
XP × 1.5
Level-1
XP ÷ 1.5

Level +2
XP × 2
Level-2
XP ÷ 2

Level +3
XP × 3
Level-3
XP ÷ 3

Level +4
XP × 4
Level-4
XP ÷ 4

Level +5
XP × 6
Level-5
XP ÷ 6

Level +6
XP × 8
Level-6
XP ÷ 8

Level +7
XP × 12
Level-7
XP ÷ 12

Note: Levels 1-3 in 3.x treat CR 3 and below monsters as having their full XP value.

For example, if you wanted to calculate the relative XP value of an Ogre Mage (http://pathfinder.d20srd.org/bestiary/oni.html#oni-ogre-mage), a CR 8 creature for a 4th level party, you would take the ogre's XP value (4,800) and multiply it by 4, making the XP award 19,200 XP, granting the same amount of XP as overcoming a CR 12 encounter. In essence, the XP award has been made relative the threat the ogre mage.

♦♦ Here's Why I Don't Recommend Actually Doing This ♦♦
Pathfinder actually keeps pretty much the exact same rate of advancement as 3.x, just their system handles it a lot more cleanly. The XP charts in 3.x are basically Current Level × 1,000 XP = Experience to Next Level (so 1st level needs 1 × 1000 = 1000 XP to reach 2nd level, 2nd level needs 2 × 1000 = 2000 XP to reach 3rd level, and so on). What this basically amounts to with all the crazy scaled XP is that if the party faces off against equal CR foes, they will level up in about 13.3 encounters. If that same party faced APL+4 encounters, they would level up in about 3.3 encounters.

Pathfinder literally baked in the monster scaling into the XP system with no scaling required. It's the exact same result.

For example, in 3.x you need to amass 4,000 XP to go from 4th to 5th level, or 16,000 XP for a party of 4 PCs.
In Pathfinder (assuming the fast XP track, which is the OGL compliant equivalent of the 3.x track) you need 4,000 XP to go from 4th to 5th level, or 16,000 XP for a party of 4 PCs.

The amount of XP the 4th level 3.x party would earn fighting a CR 4 creature in 3.x would be 1,200 XP. So it would take about 13.3 encounters to level up.
If the same party faced off against a CR 8 creature, they would earn 4,800 XP. So it would take about 3.3 encounters to level up.

The amount of XP the 4th level Pathfinder party would earn fighting a CR 4 creature in 3.x would be 1,200 XP. So it would take about 13.3 encounters to level up.
If the same party faced off against a CR 8 creature, they would earn 4,800 XP. So it would take about 3.3 encounters to level up.

They literally baked the scaling into their standard XP systems, because they just scaled the amount of XP needed to go from level X to Y to match the XP scaling of the monsters, rather than the other way around. This means that rather than reducing the XP value of an orc versus a higher level party, the orc is just naturally worth far less XP relative to the XP needed to reach the next level than they would have in 3.x, so that the relative % of XP to Next Level remains the same, except you don't need a funky chart to tell you about it.

If for nothing else, you might use this as a way of predicting whether or not you're using enemies that are too strong relative to the PCs even if they are within the encounter budget, especially as it pertains to scaling for party size. For example, if you've scaled for a doubled party size (x2 XP budget), you would notice that you could fit a single creature with a CR of APL+2 in the encounter's XP budget. But doing so is perhaps a bad idea. An ogre mage will generally have a much easier time dealing with a party of four 4th level characters than a single 8th level character (it's cone of cold could very likely throw the party into critical condition or dead immediately). Often times higher CR foes tend to have much beefier numbers and statistics relative to the PCs, and it's quite possible that the value of their numbers will be diminished as a result (it doesn't matter how many PCs are in the party if they can't actually hit the foes or bypass their spell resistance or evade their big damage AoEs, etc). This is why I typically recommend when scaling for parties, only add more equal or lesser strength foes rather than fewer stronger foes.

Elves

2022-08-31, 06:00 PM

I don't think making the battle of Brindol the end of the story is good. It's the dramatic high point of the adventure but that doesn't mean it should be the end. That's like saying LOTR should end with the Pelennor Fields battle.

What I DO think is that after the highwater mark, it should feel like the world has changed. This is why the suggestion to have planar disturbances and a warped, hellish landscape near the Fane of Tiamat is great. The time for subtlety is over.

I don't think the nonlinear nature of the Fane dungeon is a problem; for the final hurdle, it's fair to give the PCs a straightforward "can you beat this". What I would do is embrace that and streamline it, cutting away the initial 'living quarters' section of the dungeon. I don't think we're interested in that stuff at this point. This is a cavernous temple of Tiamat, nothing more. Have the entrance lead right into the big cave with the wyverns.

Ashiel

2022-08-31, 06:21 PM

It's been a hot minute since I ran the Red Hand of Doom (easily over a decade), but I've GMed it a couple of times and pretty much everything I remember about it that was great was up to the battle of Brindol. The adventure just feels so much more coherent up to that point. After that there's like a swamp, some evil druid lich guy, James Jacob's hobgoblin waifu, some sort of undead critters nobody knows what are, some random junk and there's a temple or something with an aspect of Taimat? The temple with Tiamat actually feels like the only thing that isn't some random filler, which is kinda sad 'cause everything leading up to the Brindol battle is pretty solid.

1. You got some cool ambushes.
2. You have some cool locales (old fortresses, a fight on a bridge).
3. A fun variety of enemies (hobgoblin goons, goblin wolf riders, clerics, sorcerers, hydras, etc).
4. Not one but two climaxes (the raid on the town and the Battle of Brindol).

I can honestly understand why people would want to end it there. There's so much afterwards that just feels...bleh. Or feels like it was put in just to show off some splat book material. Dunno if that counts as a marketing ploy or an attempt to create an illusion of depth or interest. Either way I find it rather unsatisfying.

The thing is though, it really wouldn't take that much work to "fix it". In fact, I can think of a few ways to fix the adventure module without actually removing that content but making it much more in the realm of an open world sandbox and optional side quest material. :smallsmile:

Saintheart

2022-08-31, 07:05 PM

The thing is though, it really wouldn't take that much work to "fix it". In fact, I can think of a few ways to fix the adventure module without actually removing that content but making it much more in the realm of an open world sandbox and optional side quest material. :smallsmile:

That's kind of the point of this thread, we'd be delighted if you could share! :)

Ashiel

2022-08-31, 07:29 PM

Sure. I'll need to see if I can find my book. I'm not really sure where I put it since when I checked yesterday it's not with my hardbacks. If you don't mind me not lifting content directly from the book itself and instead going off the narrative bits from your thread as a reference, I could simply rebuild any mechanical bits as needed and talk more about the macro-details of the campaign.

Elves

2022-08-31, 08:08 PM

the brindol battle is after the swamp and the lich tho

Ashiel

2022-08-31, 08:34 PM

Yep. Sure is. I had completely forgot. I think that actually exemplifies my thoughts on it as well. There's a lot of stuff that's basically super forgettable and/or not very interesting. My memory had pretty much glossed over the fact there was a lot of stuff between the battle at Drellin's Ferry and the Brindol siege. To be honest, I'd probably not even remember the lich druid and hobgoblin bard if it wasn't for the fact that I remember the out of game discussions between our group talking about how random it seemed (and a few comments about the bard writeup being dumb).

Honestly, I dunno what the deal is with JJ and his bardic waifus, but I tend to roll my eyes just as hard when an NPC is described as being <paraphrased>"I'm super beautiful even though my whole race is ugly"</paraphrased> as I would if a PC did the same (the fact the art actually does look super ugly is kinda comical). :smalltongue:

Saintheart

2022-08-31, 10:25 PM

DragonIceAdept

2022-09-01, 03:03 AM

This looks really awesome. I'd like to run RHoD now.

I do wish there were a similar handbook for Age of Worms though. That's one killer adventure it seems fairly hard to run.

Arparrabiosa

2022-09-01, 03:57 AM

Saintheart

2022-09-01, 08:09 PM

This is made of pure awesome. Thanks a lot, Saintheart, for this handbook. I will be looking forward to reading more about Ashiel's ideas of making RHoD a non-linear, sandboxy game. I enjoyed the jacquaying of the adventure by Saint (although, in this case and using Alexandrian terminology, that would be a node campaign (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/7949/roleplaying-games/node-based-scenario-design-part-1-the-plotted-approach); you jacquay a dungeon, instead).

I'm also super interested in knowing more about ksbsnowowl's reskins, as I'm going to do something similar when I run this module (I'm planning on remix it with Legacy of the Crystal Shard and Splintered Peace on Brindol, too). Specially, do you still use the dragons? If not, what do you use instead of them?

You're very welcome.

I don't know when/if ksbsnowowl will check back in, but the good part about reskinning the adventure is that if you don't want to make it all about dragons and dragon-themed stuff, other opposition can be substituted in so long as the CR is equal or close-enough. In place of dragons, any powerful or 'secret overlord' type monster used consistently should do, although that also means some changes might be warranted to off-dragon stuff like the spawn of Tiamat to something else as well. Some suggestions for broad categories:

- Drow
- Demons
- Devils
- Mind Flayers, albeit the CRs will be high
- Beholders, albeit again the CRs will likely be high
- Vampires, maybe
- Giants
- Unseelie Fey
- Good old cult of your dead god of choice

You get the idea. The main thing the dragons bring to each encounter comes down to a mobile breath weapon platform (dealing more menace and apprehension than actual harm given breath weapon recharge times) and (in Abithriax's case) some capacity to cheesegrate a PC on a full attack. The Wyrmlords are the 'bosses' in their fights, the dragons are really, um, The Dragon (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon).

Of the broad choices above I personally like demons as replacements best, since the end of the adventure eventually winds up closing a planar portal. But it is really a matter of personal taste.

Ashiel

2022-09-01, 08:59 PM

You get the idea. The main thing the dragons bring to each encounter comes down to a mobile breath weapon platform (dealing more menace and apprehension than actual harm given breath weapon recharge times) and (in Abithriax's case) some capacity to cheesegrate a PC on a full attack. The Wyrmlords are the 'bosses' in their fights, the dragons are really, um, The Dragon (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon).

On that note, you could completely dispense with true dragons and instead make the commanders powerful mages that ride on the backs of flying mounts. For example, a 7th level wizard with NPC wealth in Pathfinder is CR 6, and a Wyvern (http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/wyvern.html#wyvern) is also CR 6, so together they would be a CR 8 encounter. A great boss fight and has a lot of the same functional appeal of a true dragon (if you get in close, there's an angry wyvern, at a distance you're getting blasted with fireballs and stuff) but has a different flavor (dragons being servants in an army might feel a bit out of place for some, especially if you're reskinning the adventure to not involve Tiamat).

In some ways the encounter can actually be more interesting than with the dragon alone since the characters get two sets of actions which means that they might actually close into melee and with (especially if the wizard has Combat Casting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/combat-casting/), Uncanny Concentration (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/uncanny-concentration/), and Shielded Caster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shielded-caster-teamwork/) between them; though if for 3.x with no Pathfinder sources, then the combination of Skill Focus [Concentration] and Combat Casting together achieves much the same effect).

This sort of thing can really give some classic epic fantasy vibes (like oldschool Warhammer Fantasy). Just slap a big staff in one hand and maybe even a sword in the other (though you might want to multiclass a level of warrior onto them for +0.5 CR if you want them to use it as well) for the extra awesome points.

EDIT: Some additional thoughts.
If you did want to do something like that, having the wizard spend their lower level spells on making the wyvern more ferocious in combat would be a good idea. A quick slap of mage armor brings the wyvern up to AC 23 and protection from arrows cast on both of them can actually still be pretty good at this level (especially for more or less eliminating minion and cohort ranged attacks as most parties don't have a bunch of +1 ranged weapons lying around, though clever parties will get around this with oils of magic weapon easily enough). Alternatively blur on both of them. Stuff like bull's strength or bear's endurance are both fun options for the mount (the former makes the wyvern's attacks stronger, the latter makes its poison more deadly). For 3rd level spells, probably go ham with AoE blasting spells to soften the party with (fireball is the classic and 7d6 is decent at this level). You could also use stoneskin to give 70 points worth of DR10/adamantine to the wizard or the wyvern, or be a huge douche and instead opt for greater invisibility cast on both of them and laugh maniacally as the wyvern grapple-moves people off a certain bridge.

EDIT 2: I pretty much run all campaigns with Spheres of Power/Might these days as well. So if that's an option, I'd probably recommend tweaking the wyvern in this situation as follows.
1. Trade some of the wyvern's feats for a martial progression (-2 feats, +3 talents).
2. Spend the wyvern's two feats on Flyby Attack and Shielded Caster as described above.
3. For its combat talents, take Wrestling Sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wrestling#toc0), Chink in the Armor (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wrestling#toc30), and Talented Tie Up (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/wrestling#toc24).

The result is the wyvern swoops by with flyby attack and swift-action snags (-2 vs grapple) somebody before making a bite attack. If their bite hits, they automatically initiate a grapple. If their grapple succeeds, they immediately make an armor & shield ignoring attack with their stinger (inflicting damage and poison), before finishing their move and taking off with them into the air (using their body as soft cover in the process). On any turn they begin already grappling their foe, they roll to maintain the grapple, inflicting a bite and a pair of rakes, before stinging them again. Basically, wyvern is scary.

Arparrabiosa

2022-09-04, 03:23 AM

Fizban

2022-09-04, 04:19 PM

I would warn that the Skeletal Dragon template's CR calculation is completely bogus- there's one at the start of Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, so we found out very quickly. It reduces hit points and AC by a bit and removes the breath weapon (and flight), but makes no changes to the part people actually fear (the full attack) while adding better damage reduction and undead immunities (which include multiple vaunted anti-dragon spells). And for this it says the CR is "1/2" the original value? That's not even how CR works! If it was actually weak enough that you could use two instead of one, that would be -2, and this is not enough weakness that I would put it that low at all: it doesn't actually decrease the primary offense and dragons are under-CR'd to begin with!

If you're keeping flight on the skeletal dragon, I'd consider rating it at the same CR, or -1 at most.

Ashiel

2022-09-04, 06:11 PM

I'm going to use a winter-themed barbarian horde, Saint. In my world, these barbarians (highlanders and tundra nomads) venerate the Father of the Winter. It is a cruel god of war, death, blizzards, and storms, based on Hakkon Wintersbreath (https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hakkon_Wintersbreath_(deity)), with a bringer of ragnarok / end of the world kind of vibe (Alduin (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Alduin)). It is represented as a white dragon, and I kinda like the role of dragons in RHoD, so I was thinking about make him also the father of dragons. That would allow me to keep the roster of dragons of the module, changing the red dragon for a white dragon (with her dead rider like the one from Rime of the Frostmaiden?).
I'm not overly familiar with some of the inspirational material, but I generally support anything involving white dragons. They're my favorite dragons and I think that they generally are one of the scariest types of dragons to encounter. Often significantly more frightful than other types, such as red dragons.

I'm going to steal ideas from Legacy of the Crystal Shard, so one of the bosses will be a cleric of the Father of the Winter riding a skeletal dragon, fulfilling the role you, Ashiel, were talking about. The skeletal dragon will substitute one of the less thematic dragons and the cleric will fulfill the role of one of the wyrmlords. I think I will change the lich druid for a necromancer lich based on Akar Kessel, that contribute frozen undead to the horde unless the PC bring his phylactery back.
Changing it to a zombie dragon might be a good idea to retain flight capabilities. If you're worried about them being slow, you could use the Fast Zombie (http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary/zombie.html#zombie) variant which loses some of their defensive abilities but isn't staggered and is actually faster and has a spookier full attack. Note that the natural armor is a replacement, not an adjustment, so they will probably have a much lower AC than their living counterparts.

Also worth noting is that generally speaking, a cleric/undead dragon pairing will be much more melee-centric than the wizard/wyvern pairing compliment each other in terms of ranged blasts from the wizard at range, and the wyvern being spooky in close combat. In the case of the cleric/undead, they're probably much more likely to want to close to melee as most cleric spells are buffs, touch spells, and/or relatively small AoEs, and the undead doesn't (usually) have any tactical options (e.g. feats or talents) and likewise no breath weapon.

The horde itself is going to be composed not only by human barbarians, but of other humanoids that venerate the Father of Winter and ice-themed creatures as well. Orcs, ogres, frost folk, and those goat men from monster manual on one hand and yetis, ice trolls, winter wolves and mammoths on the other. Perhaps some winter fey too, and/or some glacier dwarves corrupted by the black ice (LotCS again).
All sounds pretty nice. Definitely consider that organized into military units, that they will probably sort themselves into complimentary teams. For example, putting some adepts or clerics into the squads to cast resist energy (fire) on the dangerous ice enemies (and/or resist energy (acid) as well for things like the trolls), or have the barbarians ride the winter wolves into battle. I mentioned in my first post how to easily put together mixed units. ♥

EDIT: Also it's more likely that their treasure values will actually be converted into equipment. For example, with humanoid partners in the military, there is little to no reason not to give things like the winter wolves or trolls some light armor with no check penalties (such as leather or mwk studded leather as their treasure values allow), which will give them a +2 to +3 bump in AC and draw attention to the fact they're in an organized army, not such some beast out on the hunt.

Elves

2022-09-05, 12:13 AM

It reduces hit points and AC by a bit and removes the breath weapon (and flight), but makes no changes to the part people actually fear (the full attack)
I looked at that dragon (CR 11). The attack bonus is too high. It's the same as a greater stone golem, a similar "big pile of HD" brute that's 5 CRs higher. A CR 11 cloud giant has comparable damage (96 vs dragon's 88). The dragon will beat it in practice because it hits more, but fundamentally the damage is ok.

In the giant's favor it has twice the dragon's AC (25 vs 12) and 6 feats (the ones in the default block are poorly chosen, but if customized it would be a big advantage).

I wouldn't call the CR "bogus" because it's very beatable at this level...hell, you can just fly into the air and potshot it and it can't do anything (unlike the giant which has levitate and a ranged attack). But I agree the attack bonus is too high. You could reduce it to undead BAB and it would still be comparable to the giant, or inferior if the giant had optimized feats. Alternately, you could have the dragon use the default skeleton formula (1 CR per 2 HD until 10, then 1 CR per 3 HD) which would make it CR 13. CR -1 or -2 from the base dragon is way too high though.

(posting because I'm using this template in a game session)

Arparrabiosa

2022-09-06, 01:30 PM

How about a Bone Creature template from the Book of Vile Darkness?

Perhaps a ghostly dragon from Draconomicon, like in this image (https://i.imgur.com/mNE2D12.jpg)?

Saintheart

2022-09-06, 08:53 PM

How about a Bone Creature template from the Book of Vile Darkness?

Note that BoVD doesn't indicate what the template's CR is.

CRs are pretty rule-of-thumb anyway, but it's still worth considering. Back calculating from BoVD's sample Bone Creature - a fifth level Bugbear Rogue at CR 7 (CR 2 from bugbear, 5 levels in Rogue = +5 to CR) - implies that the template adds nothing, which is I think a bit misleading for some creatures.

I mean, the plain old skeleton template forces the base creature to lose most of its special qualities, its flight capability, and all of its special attacks basically in exchange for undead traits, cold immunity, some DR, and Weapon Finesse.

Bone Creature gives all of that and allows the creature to retain practically all of its special attacks and all of its special qualities as well as retaining flight. On a dragon I wouldn't call that CR +0.

Ashiel

2022-09-07, 12:28 AM

Back calculating from BoVD's sample Bone Creature - a fifth level Bugbear Rogue at CR 7 (CR 2 from bugbear, 5 levels in Rogue = +5 to CR) - implies that the template adds nothing, which is I think a bit misleading for some creatures.

Just a thought, but whomever wrote that might have looked at the Bugbear statblock and considered it a fighting monster rather than an ambushing monster when determining whether or not the rogue levels were associated vs non-associated. Their description talks about them being sneaky ambushers but aside from a racial modifier to Stealth, they're basically built like bruisers and don't have any abilities that actually make them good ambushers so the choice wouldn't have been unwarranted.

If they were treated as non-associated levels up to its 3HD, its CR would have been calculate as 2 from Bugbear, 1.5 from non-associated levels, and then 2 from rogue, leaving it at CR 5.

Seward

2022-09-07, 01:27 AM

Saintheart

2022-09-07, 01:34 AM

Perhaps a ghostly dragon from Draconomicon, like in this image?

Before answering, an interesting thought bubble: a ghostly dragon, pushed to high level, strikes me as an interesting replacement for the Ghostlord, mainly because you have an instant blackmail-and-plot-hook in its hoard and its rejuvenation power, i.e. you basically can't kill it permanently unless you give its hoard back to it, at which point it (and the hoard) disappears. And since the dragon has to have a minimum CHA of 8, the template's available to most dragons at a pretty young age.

Say for example you have a young gold, silver, maybe bronze dragon that takes a bunch of caster levels, orienting towards creating stuff and with a custom McGuffin that only he can use, similar to the Ghostlord's Pool of Rebirth which allows him to make ghost lions. The Red Hand manages to assassinate the dragon and then steals its hoard, which unusually is composed of one item of no magical value but high gp value - I dunno, a crystal blue rose or something. Thus creating a ghostly gold dragon.

The Red Hand then blackmails the dragon - if you don't make undead (or some other crucial thing it knows how to do, I dunno, low end constructs or something) for us, then we'll shatter your crystal blue rose and you'll never see it again and will linger on here, unable to move on. When the players do return said crystal blue rose, the dragon responds as p. 161 of the Draconomicon says: it curls itself around its hoard and disappears into nothingness, taking the hoard with it. This deals with the Orcus On His Throne issue for the Ghostlord.

Anyway, on the ghostly dragon proposition itself - look, it strikes me you'd be creating the sort of fight that gets swingy really quick and where, unless the players are prepared for it, there's a good chance only a fraction of the party could meaningfully affect it - i.e. the fact it can turn ethereal and doesn't do any hitpoint damage, rather knocks the snot out of players' stats pretty damn fast if your rolls are good. You're going to likely need to supply a goodly sum of [force] effects or ghost touch weapons, otherwise it's really not that beatable or it's down to the party Batman wizard to save the day again with something powerful.

Ashiel

2022-09-07, 03:34 AM

Bugbears have a racial mod to stealth, racial bonus to dex, and high strength means not wasting feats on weapon finesse. Racial hit dice give 6 skill points a level and every class skill is scout oriented, including the important perception and stealth skills. This is backed up with darkvision and scent, so no need for a light source and some chance of detecting enemies they can not see or hear. Racial hit dice give only 3/4 bab and good reflex save. Favored class is rogue.

Bugbear is an ambush race. They make excellent light infantry and can go down the barbarian or fighter route and do well, but can mix in rogue as needed for skills, sneak attack, evasion etc. Not all rogues are size small and have noodle arms.

One minor correction. They do not gain 6 skill points per level, they gain 2 skill points per level and have 3 HD. I agree with you that muscle rogues are the way to go.

That said, I was pointing out that the writer may have been treating them as combat monsters first, because they are basically chunky orcs with scent and a +4 stealth racial. Nothing else about them makes them particularly great at being rogues, and rogues give them very little aside from getting a bunch of extra skill points (which they arguably don't need), so rogue is mostly just a downgrade for them (they get worse hit points, their BAB hits a snag because you're multiclassing rogue at a level that they're already down a BAB relative to their HD, so they're going to have a sub-3/4 BAB, and similarly will make their saving throws lag badly too). Sneak attack is pretty awful as a rule and looks even worse on a character with a bad BAB.

They're pretty much just more dangerous if you gave them an equal number of barbarian levels. The difference in BAB, HP, Saves, Speed, and weapons alone make them more dangerous in both melee and ranged combat (ironically also making them better ambushers as well). Even in 3.5 where Power Attack only gives a +2 / -1 with a weapon wielded in two hands, the bugbarian would generally apply much more pressure than the buggue more effectively more frequently (+3d6 sneak attack is an average of 10.5 damage but turns off pretty much always after the first turn, whereas trading the 2 BAB difference between the two gives a +4 bonus to damage that always applies, and then another +3 on top of that if the bugbear decides to rage, and will hit more).

I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, I was just pointing out that the above may have been the writer's mindset. The barbarian actually becomes straight up the superior route if the rogue is the key class and not barbarian. In fact, if rogue is considered key, pretty much all of the NPC classes save for commoner is also a better choice than rogue. :smallconfused:

Arparrabiosa

2022-09-07, 04:50 AM

a ghostly dragon, pushed to high level, strikes me as an interesting replacement for the Ghostlord

I have fallen in love with this idea and I will try as hard as possible to make it work in my campaign. I'm even thinking about the possibility of making him an artificer instead of a full wizard, and his lair full equipped forge of constructs instead of the Pool of Rebirth (gold/platinum clockwork horrors? warforged?). This may make the campaign evolve to a Conan and the mountain of technology kind of vibe, like Golarion's Numeria/Iron Gods adventure path. Not sure yet if that's what I want, or what kind of minion he could create instead. But not being undead opens up the possibility of my Azarr Kul / Gurd Harofsen (https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Gurd_Harofsen) / Hedrun Arnsfirth (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hedrun_Arnsfirth) being allied with an undead or necropolitan necromancer/lord of the uttercold instead of a skeletal Tyrgarun found trapped in the temple. I could use Akar Kessel and the Black Ice situation from Legacy of the Crystal Shard. Which also means that I can use corrupted dwarves to bring in Ironhills to the game.

Hmm...

Saintheart

2022-09-07, 09:19 AM

I have fallen in love with this idea and I will try as hard as possible to make it work in my campaign. I'm even thinking about the possibility of making him an artificer instead of a full wizard, and his lair full equipped forge of constructs instead of the Pool of Rebirth (gold/platinum clockwork horrors? warforged?)

If you need lists of, or ideas for, constructs, consult the Mechanomicon (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18109.0).

Maybe a silver dragon, because they would always rather avoid combat, i.e. they're ... introverted. "I need ... friends. But I couldn't find many, so I made some for myself."

Or a brass. They seem to be the more curious tinkerers of the dragon families.

Ashiel

2022-09-07, 04:42 PM

As promised...
Though I might have to split this into multiple posts. :v

Flexible Red Hand of Doom (Abridged)
Abridged because I can't find where I placed my copy of the Red Hand of Doom so I'm mostly going from a mixture of memory, this thread's overviews, and general GMing principles.

What is this?: This is intended to be a simple guide for running the Red Hand of Doom adventure module for 3.x or Pathfinder (1e) for parties of virtually any size and to a lesser extent any level (though do note that even if you can scale upward indefinitely, the nature of the game changes at high levels to the point that a military invasion is simply not fitting anymore as a narrative element in the way it is presented).

What do I Need?: Access to the Pathfinder (http://legacy.aonprd.com/) and/or 3.5 System Reference Documents (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) and/or their respective published manuals. Obviously having a copy of the Red Hand of Doom (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/28797/Red-Hand-of-Doom-3e) (which has been remade available in pdf or print on demand at DMsGuild.com) would be ideal (though since I am going to suggest you ignore pretty much all of the mechanical stuff from the module, you mostly need it for narrative guideance; so you might be able to fake it with enough secondhand knowledge).

Suggested Resources?: If you're running it with the Pathfinder ruleset, I would also highly recommend the Spheres of Power and Might System Reference Document (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) and perhaps the Psionics System Reference Documents (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/) simply as resources that you may wish to use in your campaign because they're lovely (as a side note, psionics was my favorite system for well over a decade prior to Spheres). I may offer suggestions for using content from these but neither will be required.

Overview
The following will discuss the general themes of the adventure, a few relatively simple suggestions for adapting it to different themes or campaigns, and a breakdown as to what sorts of enemy archetypes you're expected to face and get you comfortable comprehending the adventure on a conceptual scale to make it easier to adjust the finer details to your preferences.

Adventure Summary: In the original Red Hand of Doom, a hobgoblin warlord and priest of the dragon goddess Tiamat commands an army to travel through a nonspecific land in conquest, with the end goal being to release an aspect of Tiamat into the world and give him power and stuff. The party gets drawn into this after a roadside ambush after the party discovers some of the grizzly work of the forward patrols. This ultimately leads them across the nonspecific land to a few settlements, ultimately leads to them assisting a city to repel an invasion, and eventually going to fight the hobgoblin warlord and his mistress in their temple fortress.

Enemy Archetypes
The majority of the enemies in TRHOD can be broken down into simple concepts: warriors, priests, mages, cavalry, exotic beasts, magic servants (e.g. undead), and epics (e.g. dragons). Warriors are enemies who fight directly, like the hobgoblin regulars or blademasters. Priests are essentially the traditional cleric role (buffing/summoning/healing) such as the clerics of Tiamat. Mages are basically the traditional wizard roll (buffing/summoning/crowd control), such as bugbear sorcerers. Cavalry are exceptionally mobile strikers, like the goblin wolf riders. Exotic beasts are novelties such as hydras, manticores, and things that break up the typical skirmish encounters and may need to be approached differently. Magic servants are created or conjured enemies that don't follow typical psychological norms and are functionally kill or banish on sight (such as undead, constructs, or summoned/called outsiders). Epics are major centerpiece encounters that are more complicated to fight than normal foes (such as dragons).

Using Archetypes
The archetypes can help you understand how to capture the feel of a scene even if you're not using the exact same creatures or stats each time. This is especially important if you wanted to adapt the module to a setting that doesn't have something like hobgoblins or dragons, or you want to be able to achieve the same narrative points but there's not a version of the monster that is suitable for the scale of the game you're running (such as if you were running the Red Hand of Doom for a low level party, a proper dragon might be replaced with something that filled the same niche but less powerful, such as a half dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-dragon/) - auroch (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/herd-animals/aurochs/)).

Likewise if you understand what different archetypes bring to the table, you can more easily replicate their functionality when adapting them to other settings. For example, if you were adapting the adventure to Dark Sun's Athas (https://athas.org/), there are few if any rivers and dragons are made rather than born. As a result, a young red dragon at the Skull Gorge Bridge wouldn't work, but a long bridge walkway over some tar pits combined with a psion throwing mind-powered fireballs while riding atop a giant vulture (http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary3/vulture.html#vulture,-giant) can hit a lot of the same tactical points (flying enemy who uses AoEs to soften the party before closing in for the kill, a bridge with a danger of falling off the sides to some hazard).

Sandboxing Scaling Ideas
There are several ways to go handling the scaling of the adventure, depending on what sort of meta/narrative standards you want.

You could simply scale the encounters relative to your party's current level and fall back on the idea that the soldiers and forces are growing in power as the PCs are (when the PCs are first entering the area, they are meeting with more fresh soldiers, but as they are growing the successful soldiers are also growing into hardened veterans, and/or the core of the army is replacing the fallen scouts and light infantry).

You could treat it more as a "Here be dragons" type sandbox where certain regions of the land have harder encounters than others and it's up to the PCs to navigate and deal with things as they feel capable. There are some arguments to be made that this can improve verisimilitude (I think it can go either way really), but should you decide to do this, I'd strongly advise well telegraphing great dangers and giving plenty of wiggle room to withdraw if things are looking ill). Still, overcoming "impossible" odds through things like scouting, planning, and ingenuity can be its own reward for some players (For example, perhaps the party purchases a bunch of scrolls of hide from undead

You could also tie the difficulty of the campaign directly to the timeline presented in the module (the book gives a specific timeframe before the army arrives at full strength, so you could tie the difficulty of encounters to how close the doomsday clock is to ticking), which might be more desirable than trying to "speed up" the clock (as discussed in the 2nd post of this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25434793&postcount=2)), as taking too much time means the enemies are able to properly amass and capitalize on their full strength, and makes crafting items and downtime activities more of a tactical consideration. If you do this, you could treat the party's effective level for scaling as +1 higher for each step of the timeline (accomplishments that delay the timeline give the party more breathing room for things like crafting or allow them opportunities to catch them weaker if they maintain a quick pacing).

You could make the difficulty scale based on the number of bosses / chapters completed, irrespective of order. Each time a major accomplishment is made is made in the campaign, you slide the stakes up a bit more for everyone involved. You might key this to the victory points used for the Battle of Brindol, or you might make your own objectives depending on the flow you're looking for. You might think of this approach as being similar to the Gym Badge system from Pokemon Crystal Clear (https://youtu.be/PQYBsZ78fdI) where the pokemon gyms can be challenged in any order but scale with your total game progress.

Level / Party Scaling
Once you've decided how you're going to handle the general difficulty scaling in your sandbox, you may also want to know how to tweak those scales based on party size or level you want players to be able to begin handling the game. This can allow you to start the RHOD as early as 1st level and take it as far as 20th level if the dedication is there. It also makes it a lot easier to insert additional side quests and supplementary material without breaking the campaign by over-leveling a party.

I mentioned in post #84 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25567578&postcount=82) of this thread about scaling encounters for parties of different levels and/or sizes. To reiterate in shorthand, determine what the CR of the encounter should be relative to a party of 4 (such as APL+1 or APL-1) and use a CR of that level as the baseline XP budget for the enemies in the encounter. Then decrease the XP budget by 25% for every player fewer than 4, and increase it by 25% for every player greater than 4.

For example, the RHOD assumes a party of 4 5th level characters at the start, and begins with an ECL 8 encounter (that is, +3 higher than the PC's level) against an assortment of hobgoblin fighters, a hobgoblin cleric, some hell hounds, and so on. If we wanted to scale this for a party of 1st level characters, we could present them with a CR 4 encounter composed of an assortment of 1st level hobgoblin warriors, adepts, and some dogs. If the 1st level party consisted of a single PC (the most extreme example of downscaling), instead of 1,200 XP worth of enemies, we'd instead use about 300 XP worth of enemies (so perhaps a pair of hobgoblin warriors and a small dog, starting with the dog rushing out while his master shoots from the forest line, and then a melee warrior showing up in the latter wave).

Creating an Encounter Palette
For any adventure - but especially sandbox or flexible adventures - I recommend creating an encounter palette. You can think of this as your paint easel that you can simply drag & drop enemies and challenges into the game within the XP budget of the encounter to rapidly build the adventure (with a little practice, you can actually do this so quickly that you can create entire encounters on the fly at the game table on a whim).

An encounter palette is composed of creatures that could appear in the adventure and/or different versions of creatures with the same narrative themes. For example, if we were building an encounter palette for Azur Kull's army, we might create some simple statblocks for hobgoblin warriors at different challenge ratings (perhaps a 1st level warrior, 4th level warrior, 8th level warrior, etc.), then do the same for their priests (maybe 1st level adepts, 4th level adepts, 8th level adepts, etc.), and for their minions (such as dogs, riding dogs, hell hounds, etc).

For special enemies and bosses we could do the same (you might have a version of Koth that is 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th level, etc.).

Likewise, we might include some simple traps and hazards organized by their CRs as well.

On our encounter palette, we would include their XP values together. Here's a sample encounter palette.

CR 1/4 (100 XP)
Creatures: 1st level Hobgoblin warrior (basic items only), 1st level Hobgoblin adept (basic items only)

CR 1/3 (135 XP)
Creatures: 1st level Hobgoblin warrior, 1st level Hobgoblin adept, 1st level Hobgoblin expert, Dog, Owl, Hawk

CR 1/2 (200 XP)
Creatures: 2nd level Hobgoblin warrior, 2nd level Hobgoblin adept, 2nd level hobgoblin expert

CR 1 (400 XP)
Creatures: 3rd level Hobgoblin warrior, 3rd level hobgoblin adept, 3rd level hobgoblin expert, riding dog
Hazards: Arrow trap, pit trap, poison dart trap, swinging axe trap

CR 2 (600 XP)
Creatures: 5th level Hobgoblin warrior, 5th level hobgoblin adept, 5th level hobgoblin expert, hell hound
Hazards: Javelin trap, spiked pit trap

So let's say we needed to quickly put together an APL+1 encounter for a 3rd level party (CR 4 = 1,200 XP) of 6 people (+50% XP = 1,800 XP) for a hobgoblin patrol. We can just check our palette and grab a 5th level hobgoblin warrior to be the commander (600 XP), riding dog hound (400 XP), a 2nd level hobgoblin adept (200 XP), and then six of the 100 XP hobgoblins with basic gear only. Easy peasy. If you wanted to scale it up for a 6th level party (CR 7 = 3,200 XP) of 8 players (+100% = 6,400 XP) raiding their base, you could have them encounter 6 5th level hobgoblin warriors, a 5th level hobgoblin adept, three hell hounds, and a single CR 1 pit trap scattered in the middle of the encounter somewhere.

Next Post...
In the next post I intend to basically just dump down a sample OGL-compliant bestiary for the campaign and some thoughts on maximizing your excitement while minimizing your GM prep-work for the campaign (or any campaign).

Ashiel

2022-09-07, 09:21 PM

Picking up from my previous post in this thread (#108 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25574648&postcount=108)).

Building Your Bestiary (Palette)
Material Disclaimer: There's a lot of posts floating around that advise fairly complex adaptations and a lot of material from (potentially obscure) sourcebooks that you may or may not have. This can include exotic spells, prestige classes, non-OGL material out of print, or require you to purchase secondhand or pdf copies that may be if little use at a game table (and for the purposes of this post, "exotic" is basically anything outside of core/OGL). I also (with no offense intended to anyone suggesting such things) think that piling on all the extra stuff is both unnecessary and also a waste of time and energy that could be better spent actually running, playing, and enjoying the game. As an added bonus, if you don't spend a bunch of hours building statblocks for the extra special prestige classed version of X NPC with spells from three different sourcebooks and a specific magic item from an obscure dragon magazine article published in 2001, you will feel a lot better about your party's Paladin dropping him/her in one hit from a critical hit smite arrow through the brainpan. :smalltongue:

For this reason, I will be sticking pretty much to the core Pathfinder/3.5 D&D system reference documents, along with suggestions for using the OGL Spheres of Power/Might as mentioned in the previous post. Everything will be built for simplicity in creation, running, with the core rules in mind and then with suggestions for sprucing them up with optional OGL material.

A Note On Challenge Ratings: There's a bit of a conflict between the CR estimates of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and the Bestiary regarding the CR of NPC-classed characters (specifically, the CRB suggests that their CR should be level-2, with a lot of NPC wealth, while the Bestiary suggests their CR should be 1/3 + 1/2 their level, with NPC wealth keyed to their final CR). Based on many comparisons and years of experience, I will be using the Bestiary standard and recommend that others do the same (the core rulebook leads to absolute jokes for CR that explode into huge amounts of wealth, while the bestiary version provides much more functional enemies). The same is true for 3.5, except NPCs in 3.5 begin at CR 1/2 instead of CR 1/3. The +1 CR / 2 NPC class levels remains the same.

NPC Classes - The GM's Friend: PC-classes tend to have a lot of special abilities and resources to track that are simply not necessary for NPCs. NPCs are ideally going to show up, represent an idea, and then leave. They also require large amounts of treasure to match monsters of similar CRs. These two facts make heroic classes generally bad choices for the majority of NPCs (especially the rank and file NPCs) as they do not (and should not) have large amounts of treasure and they shouldn't require a lot of time to put together, tweak, or run during the game.

Because of this, NPC classes are the GM's best friend. They can be quickly scaled with just a calculator. Their lack of gear is offset by having more HD relative to heroic characters (which in its own right offsets things like the lack of class features and magic items). For example, a 4th level warrior will have about 22 Hp, a +4 to hit, a +4 Fortitude and +1 Reflex and Will, and a maximum of 4 ranks in their skills, while being about CR 2.5 (rounded down to 2) which is right about where you want them (they're easily between a bugbear and an ogre). Their lack of special abilities and damage are easily offset by options such as Power Attack & Deadly Aim due to their higher than typical base statistics (an 8th level warrior at about CR 4-5 using Deadly Aim would have a -3 to hit but a +6 to damage, allowing them to trade their excess natural BAB for damage that is actually relevant at their CR range, or make very accurate but weak strikes).

Pretty much the same goes for advancing racial HD as well.

When you add in options like choosing their feats, Variant Multiclassing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/), or Extra Combat Talent or Basic/Advanced Magical Training / Extra Magic Talent feats from Spheres of Might / Power, you can quickly distinguish such characters in powerful narrative and tactical ways without over complicating them.

Red Hand Bestiary
All NPCs here use the basic array (http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/creatingNPCs.html) for their base ability scores. These should cover the core of the army that you'll face throughout most of the game. I've sorted them by CR/XP value. The stat blocks presented are race-agnostic, skill agnostic, feat agnostic, and equipment agnostic. You can simply apply any of the race templates below to them to quickly adjust for race. For skills, feats, and equipment, I have included suggested loadouts which can be applied to finish off the NPC. Each loadout has a short description describing their purpose, as well as suggested skills, feats, and equipment. I have also included any suggested variant multiclass options and/or spheres talents for those using spheres like myself (along with how many feats are exchanged for them).

Race Templates (Pathfinder)
Dwarf: 20 ft. speed, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits
Elf: 30 ft. speed, +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, Low-light vision, elf traits
Gnome: 20 ft. speed, +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Str, Low-light vision, gnome traits
Goblin: Small size, 30 ft. speed, +4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Cha, +4 Stealth, +4 Ride, Darkvision 60 ft.
Half-elf: 30 ft. speed, +2 one ability, Low-light vision, +2 Perception, Skill Focus (one skill), half-elf traits
Half-orc: 30 ft. speed, +2 one ability, Darkvision 60 ft., half-orc traits
Halfling: 20 ft. speed, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str, halfling traits
Hobgoblin: 30 ft. speed, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, +4 Stealth, Darkvision 60 ft.
Human: 30 ft. speed, +2 one ability, +1 feat, +1 skill point / HD.

Warriors
Warriors serve the bulk of the army and depending on their equipment loadout and feats (or variant multiclassing and/or talents) can be used to represent all kinds of archetypes.

Thug (CR 1/4, 100 XP)
HD: Warrior 1 (d10+1), Hp: 6; AC: 10; Fort: +3, Ref: +0, Will: +0;
Melee +2; Ranged: +1; Skill Ranks: 1; Feats: 1
Str: 13, Dex: 11, Con: 12, Int: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 8; Equipment Broke (5 gp in gear)
Thugs are basically just rowdy civilians or poor conscripts and scavengers in an army. They have no standard wealth (but may sell their 10 gp starting outfit for 5 gp worth of gear), meaning most are found wielding clubs (1d6+1), slings with rocks (ranged +0, 1d3+1 damage), wear a peasant outfit (2 sp), and may have about 4.8 gp worth of assorted items (such as trail rations, wooden holy symbols, a jug of ale, etc.) that they've scavenged or carried with them in a few sacks.

Soldier (CR 1/3, 135 XP)
HD: Warrior 1 (d10+1), Hp: 6; AC: 10; Fort: +3, Ref: +0, Will: +0;
Melee +2; Ranged: +1; Skill Ranks: 1; Feats: 1
Str: 13, Dex: 11, Con: 12, Int: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 8; Equipment 130 gp
Soldiers are suitable for town guards for for the rank and file infantry of an army.

Suggested Loadouts
Archer (-120 gp)
Archers are primarily support units and fire arrows from safe distances. Most prefer to ambush from a distance (where the distance penalties to Perception make them hard to spot). If forced into melee, most carry a pole-arm to try to force enemies to remain at a distance.

Weapons: Ranseur +2 (2d4+1/x3, reach, disarm), spiked gauntlet +2 (1d4+1), longbow +1 (1d8/x3, 100 ft.)
Armor: Leather Armor (+2 armor)
Gear: Arrow quiver (20) x 5
Skills: Intimidate
Feats: Point-blank shot (+1 hit/dmg < 35 ft.)
Talents: -1 feat: Sniper sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sniper) (gain Precise Shot and deadly shot (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sniper#toc0))

Infantryman (-124 gp)
Infantrymen are a versatile warrior that absorb enemy forces and are capable at inflicting damage. Most carry a simple potion into battle that can help them survive or turn the tide.

Weapons: Battleaxe +2 (1d8+1/x3), javelin +1 (1d6+1/x3, 30ft.) x5
Armor: Scale Mail (+5 armor, -4 CP, 20 ft. speed), Light steel shield (+1 shield, -1 CP)
Gear: 1st level potion (cure light wounds, enlarge person, magic weapon, resist energy, lesser restoration)
Skills: Intimidate
Feats: Toughness (+3 hp) or Dodge (+1 dodge to AC)
Talents: -1 feat: Warleader Sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warleader-sphere) (gain 1 rank in Diplomacy, aggressive flanking (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warleader-sphere#toc1) and fierce shout (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/warleader-sphere#toc3))

Shock Troops (-128 gp)
Shock troopers are lightly armored infantry that exist to inflict maximum damage in the shortest period. Most carry potions of enlarge person to allow them to easily dominate the battlefield at the cost of being vulnerable to enemy fire. Because they rely on overwhelming foes before they can react, most carry flasks of alchemist fire to use against heavily armored foes.

Weapons: Glaive +3 (1d10+1/x3, reach), spiked gauntlet (1d4+1)
Armor: Studded leather (+3 armor, -1 cp)
Gear: 1st level potion (cure light wounds, enlarge person, magic weapon, resist energy, lesser restoration), alchemist fire x2
Skills: Intimidate
Feats: Weapon Focus (glaive)
Talents: -1 feat: Fencing Sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing) (Gain 1 rank in Bluff, fatal thrust (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc0))

Soldiers, Sergeant (CR 1, 400 XP)
HD: Warrior 3 (3d10+3), Hp: 19; AC: 10; Fort: +4, Ref: +1, Will: +1;
Melee +4; Ranged: +3; Skill Ranks: 3; Feats: 2
Str: 13, Dex: 11, Con: 12, Int: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 8; Equipment 390 gp
Sergeants are ideal for low-ranked leaders of units or soldiers who have been "blooded".

Suggested Loadouts
Heavy Infantry (-390 gp)

Weapons: Battle axe +4 (1d8+1/x3), longbow +3 (1d8/x3, 100ft.), Arrow quiver (20) x5
Armor: Splint Mail (+7 armor, -7 CP, 20 ft. speed), Light steel shield (+1 shield, -1 CP)
Gear: 1st level potion x2
Skills: Intimidate, Perception, Stealth
Feats: Iron Will (+2 Will saves), Barbarian Rage (VM Barbarian, 4 rounds/day)
Talents: -2 feats: Berserker Sphere (berserking (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/berserker#toc0), brutal strike (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/berserker#toc1)), deathless (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/berserker#toc8)

Heavy infantry are well armored veterans that specialize in absorbing punishment. When enraged, they fight on through even the hardest of trials. Most are armed with axes for melee and longbows to deal with distant or air-born threats. Most carry a couple of 1st level potions of varying types.

Scout (-380 gp)

Weapons: Ranseur +4 (2d4+1/x3, reach, disarm), composite (+1) longbow +3 (1d8+1/x3, 110ft.), Arrow quiver (20) x5
Armor: Leather armor (+2 armor)
Skills: Perception, Stealth, Survival
Gear: Mwk tool (+2 stealth), mwk tool (+2 survival), smoke stick or leather barding (medium), 1st level potion
Feats: Weapon Focus (longbow), Deadly Aim (-1 hit, +2 damage)
Talents: -2 feats: Beastmastery sphere (companionship (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/martial-traditions#toc100), animal companion (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/beastmastery#toc7)), Sniper sphere (gain Precise Shot and deadly shot (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sniper#toc0))

Scouts are keen woodsmen that survey the land and track quarries. Most are keen archers with a strong arm and make capable snipers. Some scouts have loyal animal companions (usually a riding dog) as a 1st level druid for tracking and battle (similar to a hunter with a hunting hound). Such scouts put their companions in leather barding for added protection, and fires at enemies while the pet engages them in melee.

Battle-Mage/War-Priest/Death-Knight (-390 gp)

As Heavy Infantry except choose one of the following feat packages which makes the heavy infantry into a 1st level caster with a specific flavor. Casting is tied to Wisdom (+0 modifier).
War-Mage: Basic Magic Training (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc7), Extra Magic Talent (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/extra-feats#toc8)
♦ The Battle-Mage gains Destruction Sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/destruction) (energy focus (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc101) (fire), shape focus (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc102) (explosive orb (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/destruction#toc30)), gather energy (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/destruction#toc14), fire blast (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/destruction#toc49)). This allows the mage to cast fire into a 5 ft. space as a standard action, or a 10 ft. burst as a full-round action. Both effects have a 25 ft. range. Enemies in the affected areas take 1d6 fire damage and catch on fire (DC 10 Reflex halves and negates catching on fire).
War-Priest: Basic Magic Training (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc7), Extra Spell Points (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/extra-feats#toc15)
♦ The War-Priest gains 3 spell points and Life Sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/life), allowing them to cast cure (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/life#toc0) (1d8+1) or restore (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/life#toc2), costing 1 point each.
Death-Knight: Basic Magic Training (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc7), Extra Traits (Gift for Magic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/traits#toc46), Reactionary (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/reactionary/))
♦ The Death-Knight gains 2 spell points, Death Sphere (necromantic limit (reanimate) (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc95), reanimate (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/death#toc2), sustained necromancy (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/death#toc20)), and has a verbal casting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc41) requirement for his spells. The death-knight may spend 1 spell point to reanimate a creature as a skeleton or zombie, which remain animated for up to 3 hours. The death-knight may control up to 6 HD worth of undead.

Soldiers, Captain (CR 2, 600 XP)
HD: Warrior 5 (5d10+5), Hp: 32; AC: 11; Fort: +5, Ref: +2, Will: +1;
Melee +6; Ranged: +6; Skill Ranks: 5; Feats: 3
Str: 13, Dex: 12, Con: 12, Int: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 8; Equipment 780 gp
Captains are ideal as leaders of squadrons or minor heroes.

Doom Fist Monk (-757 gp)

Weapons: Unarmed Strike/Mwk Gauntlet +7 (1d4+1), shove +6 touch (3 plus battered), Mwk darts +7 (1d4+1) x50
Armor: Unarmored Training (+4 armor, applies vs touch), mwk buckler (+1 shield)
Speed: +15 ft. (competence)
Gear: 1st level potion x2
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth
Feats: None
Talents: Martial Tradition (simple weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, buckler proficiency, unarmored training (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/equipment-sphere#toc49), versatile fighter (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/equipment-sphere#toc53)), Brute sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/brute) (shove (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/brute#toc0), greater shove (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/brute#toc16)), Athletics Sphere (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/athletics)(run package (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/athletics#toc5), afterimage (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/athletics#toc74), swift movement (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/athletics#toc30)).

The Doom-fist monk is a mobile combatant that can change their fighting stances and their flow of battle. They may fight aggressively, defensively, or recovering (gaining the benefits of Heroic Resolve (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/practitioner-feats#toc54)). Each time they move more than 5 ft., they gain a single mirror image-like afterimage. They prefer to zip in and out of combat with acrobatics and shove. Many doom-fist monks keep darts on them that they will strike at foes away from them with (a favorite tactic is to shove, then perform an unarmed strike or combat maneuver, then on the following round move away with an acrobatics check and throw a dart, then repeat).

Soldiers, Veterans (CR 3, 800 XP)
To be added...

Soldiers, Elites (CR 4, 1,200 XP)
To be added...

Soldiers, Heroes (CR 5, 1,600 XP)
To be added...

Soldiers, Champions (CR 6, 2,400 XP)
To be added...

NOTE: Gonna have to take a break from writing this at the moment but I'll return and edit to add more it as soon as I can.

Arparrabiosa

2022-09-09, 05:28 AM

while the Bestiary suggests their CR should be 1/3 + 1/2 their level, with NPC wealth keyed to their final CR

Ashiel, would you be so kind to tell me in which page did you find this rule? Can't find it.

Ashiel

2022-09-09, 05:44 AM

Ashiel, would you be so kind to tell me in which page did you find this rule? Can't find it.
Heading out to work so can't find the specific page number or link at the moment, but it's in the rules for improving monsters. NPC classes are always treated as non-key classes for CR, regardless of how many levels you add to them (they are in essence pretty similar to racial HD). Their gear values are that of a heroic NPC of their final CR (so if their CR is 8, they have 8th level NPC wealth). It keeps them pretty well balanced between monsters. They're usually still not as threatening in as many forms as mid/high level foes like outsiders but they hold their own decently with a different set of strengths and weaknesses. A high HD warrior is often comparable to something like a giant or elemental in that regard.

Arparrabiosa

2022-09-09, 06:20 AM

I think you are referring to this paragraph:

Table 2–4 gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster’s abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature’s CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature’s CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature’s original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature’s CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

(Emphasis mine)

I think I'm not interpreting it the same way. I think the 2 levels = +1 CR only works for the first 2 levels for a creature without racial hit dice. So your 4th level warrior should be CR 3, just like in the core rolebook

Fizban

2022-09-09, 07:30 AM

I'm not sure what's going on either, switching between the changes to Pathfinder NPC CR calculation and the guidelines for improving monsters.

But I also feel I should post yet another reminder that taking formula classed humanoid NPC CR seriously is if anything even less accurate than monster advancement, particularly when one starts talking about their gear and feat optimization. And also a wholly unnecessary side thing when it comes to altering RHoD? I was expecting a list of appropriate monster substitutions*, not a suggestion that you should just drag and drop arbitrary NPCs of Xth level off a table. One of the good things about RHoD is that it actually doesn't fudge the organization numbers that much, and the horde is in fact pre-defined in all its level counts and monsters, rather than falling into the trap of "everything is classed humanoids equal to or greater than the PCs."

And I don't think it scales well to other levels either, since it only takes a few more to reach the point where the PCs really can just decimate armies, and even bland foes are simply too much to seriously consider normal people having a chance against them. Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land tries to pull an RHoD in Forgotten Realms, but even ignoring the smaller army and various holes, it basically starts at the levels where the big army fight in RHoD ends. The only real threat comes from the fact that the enemy is mostly undocumented, their locations unknown so you can't just go squash them, and fiat events that begin with the enemy already holding hostages.

*The best one I stumbed upon, and mentioned last thread, is Yuan-Ti. Matches the CR brackets, born with raw monster power, suitable to replace as much of the main horde as you want and scare the pants off normal people.

Ashiel

2022-09-09, 07:31 AM

I think you are referring to this paragraph:
(Emphasis mine)

I think I'm not interpreting it the same way. I think the 2 levels = +1 CR only works for the first 2 levels for a creature without racial hit dice. So your 4th level warrior should be CR 3, just like in the core rolebook

NPC classes are never considered key.

Compare the 9th level warrior to the likes of CR 7 creatures and their wealth to their treasures, then compare it the way I have presented it, with their wealth as the bestiary ties to this CR, and I believe that the merits will stand for themselves. For level-2 for NPC classes are worth neither the experience nor their treasures.

Edit: I have not updated yet due to work obligations. I will when I return this evening.

Edit 2: Somehow when I responded to Arparrabiosa, Fizban's post wasn't present. I am updating this with considerations to Fizban's post to avoid double posting.

I'm not sure what's going on either, switching between the changes to Pathfinder NPC CR calculation and the guidelines for improving monsters.
There are two methods for calculating CR/treasure mentioned, and I explained which I chose and why (the one I chose is more functional in terms of threat levels and treasure awards).

But I also feel I should post yet another reminder that taking formula classed humanoid NPC CR seriously is if anything even less accurate than monster advancement, particularly when one starts talking about their gear and feat optimization.
I have had years of positive experience with this method. For context, my players are also not CharOp-type optimized and my campaigns run with 15 PB (equivalent to the Elite Array). We follow the standard (PF) limits on magic item availability (which is significantly below the assumed 3.x availability). Likewise, none of the NPCs that have been provided so far have been optimized in terms of gear or feats save for regarding what their roles in their units are concerned to be. In the previous post, it's the exact same 1st level warrior, along with three templates suggesting appropriate equipment for an archer, a light infantry, and a pikeman, along with feats appropriate for their purposes. Something else worth noting is, to remain consistent with the method I used to determine their CR, I also followed that method when it comes to determining their wealth. The core rulebook would have had me give each of the 260 gp worth of equipment while the bestiary suggestion instead results in only 130 gp worth of equipment.

And also a wholly unnecessary side thing when it comes to altering RHoD? I was expecting a list of appropriate monster substitutions*, not a suggestion that you should just drag and drop arbitrary NPCs of Xth level off a table.
I was specifically asked to share methods for running the adventure module as an open world sandbox here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25568503&postcount=87), I remarked that I could do so and rebuild the mechanical bits here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25568514&postcount=88), to which I was given the go-ahead here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25568658&postcount=91). In the post I began my contribution to multi-part segment (found here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25574648&postcount=108)), I covered several core concepts of adapting the adventure to being a sandbox and adjusting it for parties of larger or smaller size, as well as adjusting it for different levels.

A large part of the preliminary work is explaining the main concepts behind the campaign, explaining the roles of the enemies and stuff faced in the campaign, and learning the nature of palette preparation will make adapting the campaign (or any campaign really) in theme a lot easier to people. For example, what you described as a "drag and drop(ing) arbitrary NPCs of Xth level off a table" was covered in the preliminary work where I gave examples of replacing Ozzy the red dragon with a half-dragon auroch for low level parties (it hits the same narrative notes), or changing the scene and enemies of the bridge encounter entirely such as if you're playing in the World of Athas where dragons are unique godlike beings and the world is a desert waste (in which case a bridge over water and a fight with a young dragon are both inappropriate) without losing the hallmarks of the encounter.

One of the good things about RHoD is that it actually doesn't fudge the organization numbers that much, and the horde is in fact pre-defined in all its level counts and monsters, rather than falling into the trap of "everything is classed humanoids equal to or greater than the PCs."
I humbly disagree. The Red Hand of Doom uses almost exclusively leveled NPCs. Described in the RHOD index is the "Rank and File" members of the army, and the lowest level rank and file hobgoblins are 2nd level hobgoblin warriors (in 3.x, normal hobgoblin soldiers are only 1st level warriors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm)), and every NPC simply is leveled up from that point (even among their "rank and file" NPCs there are dudes stretching up to around 8th level, some with prestige classes and such. The initial fight of the campaign begins with 12 2nd level hobgoblin warriors, a 3rd level hobgoblin cleric, a 4th level hobgoblin fighter, and a pair of hell hounds. Incidentally, since you mentioned equipment optimizations in the previous paragraph, the OG encounter has the cleric pop invisibility and uses a scroll of summon monster III (which is beyond his ability to cast himself) to drop another noteworthy enemy into the encounter.

If you believe that having an NPC palette with enemies at different tiers is "falling into the trap" of just raising the levels of the foes, you might be falling into a trap yourself. The purpose of the tool is to first identify the themes and then select things appropriate for the situation. This also helps with adapting the adventure for other settings or levels or themes. As I explained in the overview post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25574648&postcount=108), the palette helps you to scale the encounter based on the narrative needs of it. The two example encounters are pretty close to the narrative themes of the first marauder attack in the book, except one is scaled for a 3rd level party of 6 players and the other is scaled for a 1st level party of 1 players (the most extreme example).

And I don't think it scales well to other levels either, since it only takes a few more to reach the point where the PCs really can just decimate armies, and even bland foes are simply too much to seriously consider normal people having a chance against them. Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land tries to pull an RHoD in Forgotten Realms, but even ignoring the smaller army and various holes, it basically starts at the levels where the big army fight in RHoD ends. The only real threat comes from the fact that the enemy is mostly undocumented, their locations unknown so you can't just go squash them, and fiat events that begin with the enemy already holding hostages.
I noted that pushing levels very high changes the nature of the game. However, that is also not an issue if the GM recognizes what it's going to mean and you adapt the campaign accordingly. For example, if you are scaling it up to more of an epic fantasy feel, you would probably set up an encounter where the fodder are using things like ballista built with trap rules to shoot at the high level PCs, or simply running amok elsewhere while the major threat of the encounter are the commanders and leaders. That's perfectly well and good for people who want to play in a game where the PCs wade into battle like in Dynasty Warriors, cutting swaths through legions of nobodies before having big duels with their commanders.

For what it is worth, I apologize for not providing you with anything of value or entertainment, sir.

Fizban

2022-09-11, 02:35 AM

Likewise, none of the NPCs that have been provided so far have been optimized in terms of gear or feats save for regarding what their roles in their units are concerned to be. In the previous post, it's the exact same 1st level warrior, along with three templates suggesting appropriate equipment for an archer, a light infantry, and a pikeman, along with feats appropriate for their purposes.
For 1st level stuff there might be little change, but does this CR calculation not cause the PCs to fight NPCs that become steadily higher and higher level than the PCs? There aren't that many high level NPCs, and I don't think that's how things should work.

Something else worth noting is, to remain consistent with the method I used to determine their CR, I also followed that method when it comes to determining their wealth. The core rulebook would have had me give each of the 260 gp worth of equipment while the bestiary suggestion instead results in only 130 gp worth of equipment.
Are those both still Pathfinder? I'm not aware of 3.x ever actually specifying anything other than the 900gp for 1st level classed NPC gear.

I was specifically asked to share methods for running the adventure module as an open world sandbox
Fair enough, I'd been skimming so I didn't notice you'd been building up to an open world setting generator.

I humbly disagree. The Red Hand of Doom uses almost exclusively leveled NPCs. Described in the RHOD index is the "Rank and File" members of the army, and the lowest level rank and file hobgoblins are 2nd level hobgoblin warriors (in 3.x, normal hobgoblin soldiers are only 1st level warriors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm)), and every NPC simply is leveled up from that point (even among their "rank and file" NPCs there are dudes stretching up to around 8th level, some with prestige classes and such. The initial fight of the campaign begins with 12 2nd level hobgoblin warriors, a 3rd level hobgoblin cleric, a 4th level hobgoblin fighter, and a pair of hell hounds.
It begins with leveled NPCs, and uses them as canon fodder and set dressing, but the actual focus is on the monsters which form existential threats to the town's normal military: things they cannot defeat, which the PCs must stop at the source in order to give them a chance. Dragonspawn and tough undead, in addition to the obvious dragons and commanders. The PCs fight those, and some other monsters put in place or sent to attempt to stop them, and sure a number of specific NPCs, but "almost exclusive use of classed NPCs," no.

The hundreds of leveled NPCs themselves do not simply level up because the PCs do. The monster entries for humanoids also assign them what I call the "tribal" organization, which says this many of X level per this many 1st level. RHoD is definitely fudging things, but not to a ridiculous degree: the numbers and levels of the hobgoblins are roughly equivalent to a whole bunch of tribes mashed together (the goblins and worgs also line up with the given numbers,). The big cheat is that a bunch of the hobs are 2nd level, which doesn't normally appear, but is also kinda necessary when you're starting the PCs at 5th level and want them to actually some some of the lowest tier. Dug up my post from the last thread, it won't let me quote it properly but:

And as always I find an army of level 2+'s and PC classed guys (as the horde is written) in complete violation of city generation rules -but an army comprised of several dozen tribes of lizardfolk, greenspawn sneaks, and whitespawn hordelings, is legit: no training required, just get them pointed at the puny humans with no scales or secretions (and since hobbo regs have upgraded gear, you can slap leather armor and crossbows on them the same). Replacing 3,000 hobs with 65 tribes of 45 base lizards gives you 130 guys with 3-6 extra levels and 65 guys with 4-10 extra levels, as well as a core infantry that's just better.

Which granted, now that I look at it, isn't too far off from the hobbo horde's numbers if you also evaluate them as tribes. If we ignore the warrior/veteran/regular/sergeant levels, their higher level guys aren't too many. 190 3rd/4ths is equivalent to 95 tribes of lizardfolk, but the hobbos are shorter on higher level guys with only 33. That's about right for 10 hobbo tribes of 100 -but then they should only have 150+10 for the 3rd+ 4th/5th range. Which means the hobbs should be more smaller tribes, which means they're short on higher level guys. The goblin riders can be a dozen goblin warbands, which covers both them and the worgs. It's the free levels on those masses of hobs, gobs, and bugbears (the berserkers) that irk me: hundreds of level 2's and 3's when they should be warrior 1's, my verisimilitude is displeased. Lizardfolk and dragonspawn don't have that problem, and sneaks/hordlings have AC bypass to remain threatening without just mobbing like zombies.

That's pretty useful to know even if you don't want to replace them with lizards though: I've always thought the Red Hand's available number of casters was too low to support fighting the PCs, as even a single raid could wipe most of them out. Turns out they're actually short on high level guys, so you can add more to the horde's reserves without breaking the tribal budget any worse than it already is. . .

Huh, there's another idea for taking the adventure structure and turning it to other factions: has anyone mentioned yuan-ti before? Rounding up a bunch of yuan-ti tribes gets you a 4/2/1 ratio of Purebloods/Halfbloods/Abominations, at listed CRs 3/5/7. With innate alternate form, mind control, and battlefield control. Put a couple tribes of those in charge of some lizards and you've got yourself a threat. Of course that kinda defeats the purpose of needing to stop the [razorfiend hatchery] and [undead creation], since the yuan-ti are tough and magical enough they don't need them. They could be used as a replacement mission instead: the lizard or even hobbo tribal army is trying to recruit a tribe of yuan-ti to send in the halfbloods and abominations, who would present a supernatural threat the town simply can't handle. So the PCs have to either assault and pick them apart or disrupt the alliance -maybe even through social skills and intrigue/subterfuge with other yuan-ti tribes.
link (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?171284-The-3-5-Red-Hand-Of-Doom-Handbook-for-DMs-Major-spoilers!-WIP-PEACH!&p=22521277&viewfull=1#post22521277)

Incidentally, since you mentioned equipment optimizations in the previous paragraph, the OG encounter has the cleric pop invisibility and uses a scroll of summon monster III (which is beyond his ability to cast himself) to drop another noteworthy enemy into the encounter.
Yup. And it doesn't even have the decency to use that SM3 for something effective. Just because even the published writers do something doesn't make it good practice- you should see how flagrantly The Sinister Spire violates the the Encounter section of the DMG, even before they fail to correctly apply monster advancement.

If you believe that having an NPC palette with enemies at different tiers is "falling into the trap" of just raising the levels of the foes, you might be falling into a trap yourself.
I think you have missed the reason for which I consider that a trap to begin with, which to be fair I did not directly state: NPCs should not just get levels because the DM needs them to have/be generated with levels to challenge the party. NPCs should have levels because it makes sense in the world (and this would go doubly for a sandbox), and the DMG and MM have base rules for determining how many NPCs should be above 1st level. If you have a dungeon or army or whatever full of high level dudes, where did those dudes come from? If you kill them all, are more going to magically pop up out of nowhere because the auto-balance said the PCs will be fighting X CR Y foes? And if they're using a CR formula that requires them to be higher level than the PCs, there's no possible way this is going to make sense.

And if you're not improvising but simply building things beforehand- okay, you've changed the level composition of the entire horde, and so you change the numbers to match, and the horde either shrinks (possibly to the point the PCs are superfluous) or gets larger to go with stronger (to the point that the town has even less of a realistic chance fighting them than they already did).

Monsters with racial hit dice (and equal CR monster substitutions) on the other hand, completely avoid that problem, letting you keep the established horde and encounter and city etc numbers and run basically the same campaign, with different monsters. Whether or not they have a convenient built in organization like the Yuan-Ti, a pile of monsters does not mess with verisimilitude the way hundreds of level-boosted NPCs would, since the whole point and threat of monsters is that they're just born that way.

For what it is worth, I apologize for not providing you with anything of value or entertainment, sir.
I don't think I was quite that derisive (alright, "wholly unnecessary" was a bit much), and I would not say your system is not of value- but it doesn't look to me so much like an alternate RHoD, as it does a treatise on building improv campaign (or pre-game campaign building) utilities that will include the Horde of the Red Hand as an example monster set.

The very question of how you might go about scaling enemies in response to the party misses my point that the horde is already scaled appropriately: it stands as an example of about how many things of what power levels against PCs of what level makes for a good horde vs town campaign. Get overleveled and as you acknowledge, the plot doesn't work so well. Go underleveled and the PCs quickly lose the ability to combat the sort of existential threats that make the scenario work in the first place, because they're barely any stronger than the town's warriors. Either way you have to re-build the horde to make it match the metrics meant to maintain verisimilitude, seriously changing the horde beyond equivalent substitutions means you need to re-evaluate the rest of the campaign to see if it still makes sense, etc.

Or in short: I almost entirely disagree with the core of your premise, while I expect you disagree with most of mine, but people have asked for your guide, so carry on as you will. If you write a list of roughly equal-CR substitutions for various things I will still be interested to read them.

Ashiel

2022-09-11, 08:21 PM

For 1st level stuff there might be little change, but does this CR calculation not cause the PCs to fight NPCs that become steadily higher and higher level than the PCs? There aren't that many high level NPCs, and I don't think that's how things should work.
It could, but whether or not it does is up to the DM and what's appropriate for their campaign world. When creating the palette, you include any NPCs that are relevant to the campaign and their specific CRs/XP values (possibly sorted at least by general theme or role). You may notice that back in my initial post on the subject (#108 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25574648&postcount=108)) that I gave two examples of scaling an encounter. One involved a larger but lower leveled party in a scenario narratively similar to the marauder attack at the start of the RHOD, which was also similar to the expected distribution found in the MM. The other involved the extreme of a 1st level party of only 1 player and in that case the marauder attack wasn't a unit but a couple of scouts. This pretty much mimics the expected distribution of enemies, and never once implied that the answer was to level all the NPCs in an encounter to match the party.

Are those both still Pathfinder? I'm not aware of 3.x ever actually specifying anything other than the 900gp for 1st level classed NPC gear.
Yes. Specifically following the Pathfinder Bestiary guidelines (which are slightly more updated versions of the 3.x ones, specifically that it notes that the gear values for classed NPCs should be for a heroic NPC of the NPC's CR) which as I mentioned earlier produce more usable results. NPC levels and PC levels aren't created equal and shouldn't be treated equally. CR is a better measure (even 3.x implies that being a crappier class also equates to faster advancement, as indicated by the settlement guidelines in the DMG, where NPC classes are consistently higher in level than their PC classed counterparts - with adepts being 1d6 to wiz/sorc d4, warriors being 2d4, experts being 3d4, and commoners being 4d4 before community modifiers).

In this specific instance, that means a CR 1 classed NPC has 390 gp worth of gear, while a fractional CR member has a fraction of that gear (the CR 1/3 warriors each have 130 gp worth of equipment). This is much closer in line with what you would expect from a typical CR 1 encounter, albeit a little higher to compensate for the 50% resale reduction that you'd get off the NPC's loot (as a smaller fraction of their total treasure will actually be in trade goods than normal).

It begins with leveled NPCs, and uses them as canon fodder and set dressing, but the actual focus is on the monsters which form existential threats to the town's normal military: things they cannot defeat, which the PCs must stop at the source in order to give them a chance. Dragonspawn and tough undead, in addition to the obvious dragons and commanders. The PCs fight those, and some other monsters put in place or sent to attempt to stop them, and sure a number of specific NPCs, but "almost exclusive use of classed NPCs," no.
The majority of the first half of the book deals almost exclusively with classed NPCs and only incidental monsters (the individual monsters are actually easier for a town militia to kill than the larger groups of NPCs). The only TPK I ever had with the campaign was comically during the first encounter on the first time running it (an ECL 8 encounter that's basically all leveled NPCs and some pets). The encounters following that through Vraath keep consist of an incidental hydra, a pair of 3rd level fighter goblins on worgs, another bunch of leveled hobgoblins, a minotaur, a manticore, and a leveled bugbear sorcerer. Following that is the bridge which has, you guessed it, a bunch of leveled hobgoblins, some more hell hounds, and a dragon. Following that is the raid of Drellin's Ferry, which consists of waves of leveled goblin worg riders, leveled hobgoblins led by even more leveled hobgoblins, a single chimera. Then the fight at the Ferry itself consists of a wave of a few manticors and more leveled hobgoblins, then some monsters and a pair of leveled hobgoblins, then a bunch of waves consisting primarily of very leveled bugbears and hobgoblins. These trend pretty much continues on for a good while, with a few monsters sprinkled in from time to time to break things up (couple ettins, an arachne, and what amount to some leveled half-dragon warriors). There's sort of a break from this around the midway point where the party is exploring the ghostlord's lands (which also tends to have the least meaningful enemies) but even then concludes most of that chapter with yet another encounter with a bunch of leveled humanoids (a leveled heroic classed bard/prestige thingy, doom fist monks, and doom hand clerics). This continues on right to the end through the Fane of Tiamat, where most of the difficult random encounters in the final chapter consist of bands of leveled NPCs with not so much as a basic version of them in sight.

Most of the non-humanoids are pretty forgettable unless they showed up in an interesting way. Everyone remembers the bridge battle with the dragon. I can't think of any time where my group talked about fighting the blue dragon in the Fane of Tiamat, or even cared to remember what a bonedrinker or blue-spawn thunderlizard was. :smalltongue:

The hundreds of leveled NPCs themselves do not simply level up because the PCs do. The monster entries for humanoids also assign them what I call the "tribal" organization, which says this many of X level per this many 1st level. RHoD is definitely fudging things, but not to a ridiculous degree: the numbers and levels of the hobgoblins are roughly equivalent to a whole bunch of tribes mashed together (the goblins and worgs also line up with the given numbers,). The big cheat is that a bunch of the hobs are 2nd level, which doesn't normally appear, but is also kinda necessary when you're starting the PCs at 5th level and want them to actually some some of the lowest tier. Dug up my post from the last thread, it won't let me quote it properly but:

And as always I find an army of level 2+'s and PC classed guys (as the horde is written) in complete violation of city generation rules -but an army comprised of several dozen tribes of lizardfolk, greenspawn sneaks, and whitespawn hordelings, is legit: no training required, just get them pointed at the puny humans with no scales or secretions (and since hobbo regs have upgraded gear, you can slap leather armor and crossbows on them the same). Replacing 3,000 hobs with 65 tribes of 45 base lizards gives you 130 guys with 3-6 extra levels and 65 guys with 4-10 extra levels, as well as a core infantry that's just better.

Which granted, now that I look at it, isn't too far off from the hobbo horde's numbers if you also evaluate them as tribes. If we ignore the warrior/veteran/regular/sergeant levels, their higher level guys aren't too many. 190 3rd/4ths is equivalent to 95 tribes of lizardfolk, but the hobbos are shorter on higher level guys with only 33. That's about right for 10 hobbo tribes of 100 -but then they should only have 150+10 for the 3rd+ 4th/5th range. Which means the hobbs should be more smaller tribes, which means they're short on higher level guys. The goblin riders can be a dozen goblin warbands, which covers both them and the worgs. It's the free levels on those masses of hobs, gobs, and bugbears (the berserkers) that irk me: hundreds of level 2's and 3's when they should be warrior 1's, my verisimilitude is displeased. Lizardfolk and dragonspawn don't have that problem, and sneaks/hordlings have AC bypass to remain threatening without just mobbing like zombies.

That's pretty useful to know even if you don't want to replace them with lizards though: I've always thought the Red Hand's available number of casters was too low to support fighting the PCs, as even a single raid could wipe most of them out. Turns out they're actually short on high level guys, so you can add more to the horde's reserves without breaking the tribal budget any worse than it already is. . .

Huh, there's another idea for taking the adventure structure and turning it to other factions: has anyone mentioned yuan-ti before? Rounding up a bunch of yuan-ti tribes gets you a 4/2/1 ratio of Purebloods/Halfbloods/Abominations, at listed CRs 3/5/7. With innate alternate form, mind control, and battlefield control. Put a couple tribes of those in charge of some lizards and you've got yourself a threat. Of course that kinda defeats the purpose of needing to stop the [razorfiend hatchery] and [undead creation], since the yuan-ti are tough and magical enough they don't need them. They could be used as a replacement mission instead: the lizard or even hobbo tribal army is trying to recruit a tribe of yuan-ti to send in the halfbloods and abominations, who would present a supernatural threat the town simply can't handle. So the PCs have to either assault and pick them apart or disrupt the alliance -maybe even through social skills and intrigue/subterfuge with other yuan-ti tribes.
{url=https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?171284-The-3-5-Red-Hand-Of-Doom-Handbook-for-DMs-Major-spoilers!-WIP-PEACH!&p=22521277&viewfull=1#post22521277]link[/url]
As I noted previously, I was staying close to the feel of the RHOD while making it easier for people to modify encounters to fit their preferences. That's why I was discussing in detail the notion of A) understanding the nature of the encounters, and B) having a palette full of options at different CR ranges to populate those encounters with. If you understand the nature of the encounter, along with the XP budget you have, it makes it easier to replace core elements (such as replacing hobgoblin warriors and hobgoblin seargents with ogres and hill giants).

That said, IMHO, because the game seems to suggest that leveling as an NPC class is not as demanding or as slow as a PC class (implied heavily by the fact your typical thorpe has some 7th level peasants sitting around in 3.x, or how much more common it is to find leveled versions of NPC classed characters than heroic classed ones), I tend to use CR and heroic level interchangeably in terms of world handling and it works exquisitely well.

Yup. And it doesn't even have the decency to use that SM3 for something effective. Just because even the published writers do something doesn't make it good practice- you should see how flagrantly The Sinister Spire violates the the Encounter section of the DMG, even before they fail to correctly apply monster advancement.
Never fear, for I shall show no mercy.

I think you have missed the reason for which I consider that a trap to begin with, which to be fair I did not directly state: NPCs should not just get levels because the DM needs them to have/be generated with levels to challenge the party. NPCs should have levels because it makes sense in the world (and this would go doubly for a sandbox), and the DMG and MM have base rules for determining how many NPCs should be above 1st level. If you have a dungeon or army or whatever full of high level dudes, where did those dudes come from? If you kill them all, are more going to magically pop up out of nowhere because the auto-balance said the PCs will be fighting X CR Y foes? And if they're using a CR formula that requires them to be higher level than the PCs, there's no possible way this is going to make sense.
On the contrary, based on the standards set by the DMG, they come from the multitudes of rank and file nobodies. For every highest level individual in a community, there are double that many characters at half that level, and then double as many characters as those of half their level, repeating. This means that if there's a horde of 500 1st level hobgoblins, then there's 250 2nd level hobgoblins, then 125 4th level hobgoblins, then 62.5 8th level hobgoblins, then about 31.25 16th level hobgoblins, and so on. According to the RHOD, there are thousands of soldiers attacking Drellin's Ferry, let-alone Brindol. They're actually being pretty conservative with their levels.

I actually prefer to keep my individual NPCs in the CR 8 and under range anyway because I tend to lean towards conservative worldbuilding rather than campaigns with a bunch of gods on every street corner.

And if you're not improvising but simply building things beforehand- okay, you've changed the level composition of the entire horde, and so you change the numbers to match, and the horde either shrinks (possibly to the point the PCs are superfluous) or gets larger to go with stronger (to the point that the town has even less of a realistic chance fighting them than they already did).More likely the horde, just as it is presented in the RHOD, is a narrative tool and if your PCs are facing higher level encounters it means they are facing off against different foes. At low levels maybe they are dealing with scouts. At high levels they're dealing with more dangerous ranks. The Red Hand consists of thousands of soldiers, and as mentioned previously, this leads to a rather large number of leveled NPCs (if we weren't basing this off of the community demographics but instead on typical hobgoblin organization, you could easily be looking at around 50 3rd and 25 6th level enemies floating around per 1000 hobgoblins, which is probably enough for the number of encounters you're expected to run into over the course of the game). An encounter consisting of 4 6th level hobgoblins, 8 3rd level hobgoblins, and 16 1st level hobgoblins is a bit above a CR 9 encounter assuming they're just NPC classed. If they're heroic classed, it's more like CR 11. That's before mixing in things like traps/hazards or supplementary monsters (which could push it even higher).

Monsters with racial hit dice (and equal CR monster substitutions) on the other hand, completely avoid that problem, letting you keep the established horde and encounter and city etc numbers and run basically the same campaign, with different monsters. Whether or not they have a convenient built in organization like the Yuan-Ti, a pile of monsters does not mess with verisimilitude the way hundreds of level-boosted NPCs would, since the whole point and threat of monsters is that they're just born that way.
Which is also where understanding palettes come in. You fill it with what you think is appropriate for your campaign and then you drag & drop as the situation requires.

I don't think I was quite that derisive (alright, "wholly unnecessary" was a bit much), and I would not say your system is not of value- but it doesn't look to me so much like an alternate RHoD, as it does a treatise on building improv campaign (or pre-game campaign building) utilities that will include the Horde of the Red Hand as an example monster set.
Well, nothing thus far seems to hold any value for you, nor appeared to at least provide an interesting novelty, and having just recently ended up in contrary opinion on whether an orc was still an orc because they changed to a different mundane weapon in that other thread, it strongly seemed like I was batting 0s across the board. I don't really want to spend a lot of time writing up stuff if it's not going to be at least mildly amusing for people. Ideally I'd prefer it to be helpful. I'm not totally hopeless that our understandings are wholly incompatible, and remain holding out that perhaps it's just a failure to communicate.

The very question of how you might go about scaling enemies in response to the party misses my point that the horde is already scaled appropriately: it stands as an example of about how many things of what power levels against PCs of what level makes for a good horde vs town campaign. Get overleveled and as you acknowledge, the plot doesn't work so well. Go underleveled and the PCs quickly lose the ability to combat the sort of existential threats that make the scenario work in the first place, because they're barely any stronger than the town's warriors. Either way you have to re-build the horde to make it match the metrics meant to maintain verisimilitude, seriously changing the horde beyond equivalent substitutions means you need to re-evaluate the rest of the campaign to see if it still makes sense, etc.
It's actually a lot easier than that. Both narratively and mechanically. The specific number of enemies and their demographics aren't actually ever mentioned, nor used, and are wholly unneeded. Now, as someone who's been growing ever more fond of OSR style sandboxing, the idea of keeping a tally of the army demographics in case the party wanted to actually whittle the army down or engage in indirect warfare by doing things like dropping fireballs into a camp in the middle of the night, or sneaking in under cover of invisibility and poisoning the soups with hemlock or something. However, that's never once alluded to in the RHOD campaign and the number of enemies is simply "YES" until it is "NO".

Or in short: I almost entirely disagree with the core of your premise, while I expect you disagree with most of mine, but people have asked for your guide, so carry on as you will. If you write a list of roughly equal-CR substitutions for various things I will still be interested to read them.
I sincerely believe we probably don't. I just think it's a misunderstanding. There's a pretty solid chance that if I were to run something like the RHOD you'd notice little in the way of difference. It might actually come off as being of greater verisimilitude because I'd actually use 1st level enemies even at 5th level, and most of my NPCs would probably feel more down to earth. You'd see far fewer heroic classed NPCs, and more likely to come across mixed encounters as the norm with bigger emphasis on things like environment in site-based adventures (such as camps and forts).

In any case, here's to hoping perhaps to produce something you'll find of value in the future, and I'll get back to working on my post and follow up posts. I've been doing these between work shifts and other obligations. :smallsmile:

Saintheart

2022-10-13, 08:19 PM

Just some notes that occurred to me while I was running through a current campaign of this: one way to add some interest and/or difficulty to the big, main areas of RHOD is to have the hobgoblins lay some traps.

Vraath Keep, for example: there's two ways to enter the ruin - the main gate and the breach in the wall. I had fun not with a damaging trap as such, but a simple tripwire laid in the wall breach which, when tripped, causes a stack of cowbells to fall, thus setting off a fairly unique noise and alerting the hobgoblins to someone trying to enter the keep from that direction.

The road blockades could be handled similarly, in that you have well-concealed pit traps on the Old Rhest Trail itself, five feet forward of the doorways into the palisade. The point of the palisade is that the hobgoblins aren't allowing any access down that road. So if something does insist on approaching the blockade in good old Leeroy Jenkins style, it hits a trap before the hobgoblins have to engage it. Or magic traps in the clearing around the blockade so people can't sneak up on the wall easily. This might be particularly justifiable if the hobgoblins are conscious of or on guard against the Tiri Kitor.

The Stone Lion, as said, has a couple of potential locations for traps - maybe on the stairs leading into the fortress or on the approach to Varanthian's lair.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Elves

2022-10-14, 07:27 PM

Damn Saintheart, it's been 10 years and you're still running this for people?

Saintheart

2022-10-14, 10:00 PM

Damn Saintheart, it's been 10 years and you're still running this for people?

IT'S THE SAME PARTY THEY STILL HAVEN'T FINISHED IT YET

... nah, I make a habit of running it when I can because I like the campaign, I mean, it's the best module for third edition, why bother with inferior modules when you can run the same show but do it better next time?

The one I'm running was actually just a call for a DM to run RHOD, to be honest. I gave in to temptation and agreed to run it. Also, for lack of actual RL options, I run more or less exclusively in PbP right here, so it takes a couple of years to get through the campaign anyway.

Fizban

2022-10-15, 09:58 PM

The majority of the first half of the book deals almost exclusively with classed NPCs and only incidental monsters (the individual monsters are actually easier for a town militia to kill than the larger groups of NPCs). . . Most of the non-humanoids are pretty forgettable unless they showed up in an interesting way. Everyone remembers the bridge battle with the dragon. I can't think of any time where my group talked about fighting the blue dragon in the Fane of Tiamat, or even cared to remember what a bonedrinker or blue-spawn thunderlizard was. :smalltongue:
Pre-edit: and "almost exclusively?" I barely see even one encounter that lacks any monsters until Rhest, and two more in the Ghostlord's Lair of all places. Sure, early on there are lots of "incidental" monsters, worgs and hellhounds that are obviously not a serious threat and far outnumbered by mooks, but the bigger the monsters get the more important they are, and just because it takes a large number of mooks to balance a monster does not mean the mooks are the interesting part. And big monsters start showing up in. . . the second expected combat encounter, the Hydra. The most interesting the mooks are is at the very beginning, when the PCs first find out "wait their AC is how high?", and pretty much never again until they can throw Lightning Bolts. You seem to be going based on number of bodies, which makes mooks look more important than the "boss," which is entirely backwards. Are the hollows in Dark Souls more important than the bosses? They're flavor and filler, but people talk about boss fights, and situations where the mooks ended up interesting, not the mooks themselves.

Clearly we're just going to disagree here, since where you see a focus on humanoids, I see a bunch of cannon-fodder placed to keep the interesting monsters from being focus fired on round one while maintaining the horde+monsters theme (and replaced and upgraded a number of said monsters to keep pace with a stronger party, vis a vis Red Handbook of Doom [even without getting to the mechanical verisimilitude relevance of existential threats I already mentioned]). Just because the first few fights while the PCs are at the starting level are focused on them engaging mooks (setting the bar so they know these mooks are threatening to peasants), or those mooks take a larger number of bodies to stand alongside the actual focal points, does not mean those mooks are the focus of the adventure.

No one remembers what a bonedrinker is because they suck and the Ghostolord section has always been a bit scattered- but the razorfiends which form the entire focal point of the Rhest arc, spooking plenty of parties with unexpected uber crits (and/or breath weapon, and/or DR) and where their goal is to go squash a bunch of eggs so more don't hatch because an army of the things would be terrifying? Those guys work even when the party sometimes only fights one. The thunderlizards that crash over and through the barricade forming the only serious challenge of the "Streets of Blood" section, assuming they PCs did their jobs (and have their unique free action monster to monster line attack)? The solo blue dragon on a bridge, a "rematch" echoing back to the previous dragon bridge fight where the players ought to be succeeding based on the lessons they learned- except now the dragon is armed with a Wand of Fireballs and (at least in my case) upgraded with a Maximize Breath into a save-or-die? The common Skullcrusher Ogre substitution making the approach to Rhest far more dangerous, turning it into a puzzle that some players might not even know how to solve? The Minotaur that often causes the most trouble at Vraath keep- usually after the Manticore shows up mid-fight? Even the one Hydra, a monster that many optimizers fear thanks to its huge number of attacks (and their refusal to invest in defense), ambushing or even just blocking the party as they cross a bridge in the swamp? The Behir guarding the Ghostlord's lair, which either *swallows someone whole*, or is hilariously blasted from outside its reach?

From my experience, there were only two encounters where the non-named classed humanoid foes were memorable at all- the one where I scared the party with a special set of snipers I made myself, and the one where the special rebuilds I used to replace the monks got blinded and slaughtered without doing anything in spite of that. The rank and file horde might be interesting in the abstract and be present numerically in many battles, but that does not make the adventure about them.

Red Hand of Doom is about an army of mooks that threatens a city, which they can do only because they have a bunch of monsters, where the PCs contribute by stopping the horde from getting more monsters and by defeating their strongest monsters (and adventurer-tier leaders) directly, and even the in-between encounters usually involve monsters. It's a good adventure because it's doing what Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to do: letting PCs fight monsters, where they can see what their foes can do because monsters are big and have unique visual descriptions and do things that humanoids don't, where normal people obviously couldn't handle the job without them, where foes that are basically just hostile town guards are, by this point, walk-overs in the face of monster slayers. Trying to make Dungeons and Dragons focus on classed NPCs completely misses the point as far as I'm concerned- foes that roughly all look the same, aside from how magical their armor and weapons are, which you'll be looting by the wagonful, is not a cool vibe for a small squad of adventurers who grow ever more powerful. That's almost certainly why the original creators wrote monsters in the first place and changed the game from human vs human combat simulation into Dungeons and Dragons. Monsters are big, flashy, scary, small, creepy, mysterious, physical, supernatural, and more, and they do it just by existing, and adventurers are cool because they fight monsters.

Even with good justification for a certain number of high level NPCs, even if their stats and gear have somehow been perfectly tuned so that mechanically they ought to be equivalent to monsters, the very fact that they've been tuned that way and are not monsters undermines the fundamental cycle of the game: PCs fight monsters to take their stuff and get stronger so they can fight stronger monsters with better stuff, and that makes them special. If you're always fighting humanoids, you're not an adventurer- you're a bandit, thug, assassin, mercenary, soldier, police, etc.

And even the leaders/named are: boss of the first mini-dungeon who sucks or is upgraded to scary, dragonrider who sucks or is upgraded to scary, infiltrator that sucks at infiltrating, bard I forgot even existed until I just looked them up, other bard that either sucks or is upgraded to scary, lich that you get the idea but it doesn't matter because you just give them the mcguffin, dragonman assassin who somehow dropped but failed to kill their target but at least has a competent ambush, general who's main defining feature is a terrible PrC, and finally a half-dragon cleric. Maybe half at most are mechanically threatening without significant rewrites. In short, unless you massively change their stats and/or massively increase the amount and significance or roleplay surrounding them, the high level classed foes basically don't matter any more than the mooks do, being footnotes alongside the actual threat of the monsters they command, accompany, create, etc. And 3.5 of those were also monsters.

None of which means making a table of your stock classed humanoid foes for when they're appropriate is a bad idea, and indeed they are used for flavoring constantly, but I find the claim that the adventure is actually focused on the humanoids extremely dubious.

That aside-

(the individual monsters are actually easier for a town militia to kill than the larger groups of NPCs)
Which monsters, and how individually? Town militia have +0, maybe +1 attack for d6 or d8, and how many of them, and what situation has been presumed for them? This is why I keep saying "existential threats." Hydra, don't think so. Manticore killable but has flight and its own ranged attacks. Minotaur, sure. Dragon, the first two have no DR but still flight and breath weapon, after that no way. All the presented dragonspawn as well as bonedrinkers have DR/magic, making them practically unkillable by militia, and the ghosts are literally unkillable with mundane weapons. In short, no: even the early non-horde Hydra is a threat to "town militia," and the monsters the PCs need to deal with for victory points are existential threats, things which by their baseline existence can kill almost any number of non-adventurers. The monsters found at Vraath Keep, or things like ogres and barghests, if encountered alone instead of in the groups that are actually used, might be defeated by sufficiently large numbers of town militia. If they were encountered alone, on favorable ground, instead of being part of a horde.

But if you already think things are about the classed humanoids, I can easily see how that would compound into making the monsters seem more and more unimportant.

On the contrary, based on the standards set by the DMG, they come from the multitudes of rank and file nobodies. For every highest level individual in a community, there are double that many characters at half that level, and then double as many characters as those of half their level, repeating. This means that if there's a horde of 500 1st level hobgoblins, then there's 250 2nd level hobgoblins, then 125 4th level hobgoblins, then 62.5 8th level hobgoblins, then about 31.25 16th level hobgoblins, and so on. According to the RHOD, there are thousands of soldiers attacking Drellin's Ferry, let-alone Brindol. They're actually being pretty conservative with their levels.
I was going to just let things sit, but this is the part that bugged me enough to make another post (and then write another essay above which I think has and/or reiterates some useful points), because this isn't a matter of opinion- you're reading half the humanoid city rules and then applying them backwards to non-city tribes while making a factually untrue claim.

City generation creates higher level NPCs from the top down. The 1st levels do not generate higher levels, it literally works the exact opposite way. It does not matter how many 1st levels you have, because you don't have them until you've figured out all the higher level ones they trickled down from. If you did, you would not have high level NPC classed characters generated the same way as PC classed, because you would need to add a whole extra generation based on the raw population and the flat percentages that make up each NPC class. The DMG does not say that PC-classed, or even NPC-classed levels of high level city NPCs are generated based on the number of lower level members of that class. At all.

Tribal humanoid generation on the other hand, does work that way to an extent, because it says that for every X 1st levels there are Y of higher level. That is what the horde, specifically one made up of united tribes, should be using, and my whole point was that the horde actually was written pretty close to it. And it's not a 2:1 regression- it's slightly different for each creature/monster/etc (because the amounts are based on trying to build usable, though old-school, encounters with a number of weaker minions and a higher level leader). Except it does not continue indefinitely. The organization entries tell you the ratios of X/Y/Z, and those are fixed within certain ranges, with anything more than that coming from the DM.

The DMG does not support your assertion that there should be 31.25 16th level hobgoblins per 500 1st level hobgoblins, nor does the MM, outside of the general fact that the DM can do whatever they want.

The MM does support a higher number of some of the higher level horde members, if you assume they were mostly smaller tribes before unifying.

More likely the horde, just as it is presented in the RHOD,is a narrative tool
A narrative tool which is backed by mechanics, which is crucial for an effective narrative tool in a mechanically focused system. And the mechanics given in 3.x don't lead to the same narrative scenario at all levels.

The specific number of enemies and their demographics aren't actually ever mentioned, nor used, and are wholly unneeded. Now, as someone who's been growing ever more fond of OSR style sandboxing, the idea of keeping a tally of the army demographics in case the party wanted to actually whittle the army down or engage in indirect warfare by doing things like dropping fireballs into a camp in the middle of the night, or sneaking in under cover of invisibility and poisoning the soups with hemlock or something. However, that's never once alluded to in the RHOD campaign and the number of enemies is simply "YES" until it is "NO".
What? Just, what?

It may be a pain to find, but pages 48-49, the book does literally give you a full tally of the entire horde, a specific number for each type of enemy and a light description of how the horde moves and camps, so that if your group wants to try taking direct action you do in fact have the basic information needed to do that. It's not what the adventure is written for, but it never, ever says "NO," and it gives you the most critical information needed to run an operation of attrition. It's in a hard to find place, but if you read the book straight through even once you can't miss it. And you even mentioned earlier the encounters for Massacre at Drellin's Ferry, an example of what happens if the PCs try to fight the horde head on. So I have no idea how you're coming to the conclusion that the module does not support things that it explicitly allows. And if the players of your narrative sandbox decide they're going to try fighting the horde by attrition, or really do anything that impacts the number of troops on either side, you're going to need starting numbers in order to make any grounded adjudication of what effect their actions should have.

And as always, every time you decide that a mechanics first system is going to ignore mechanics for narrative, you weaken belief in the world based on that system for anyone that cares about mechanics.

northernbard80

2022-10-16, 01:13 PM

I'm planning to try this module myself. But I noticed that there is no entry for RHoD on TV Tropes. And so...

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/RedHandOfDoom

Anyone wanting to edit and add info to that page - please do so. I can't do it alone!

smetzger

2022-10-28, 02:49 PM

Saintheart

2022-10-28, 07:19 PM

I am thinking of running Red Hand of Doom, but would like to start off at an earlier level.

I am thinking that Forge of Fury would work well. If your not familiar with it... old dwarven mine, top level has been taken over by orcs. Set in a secluded mountain area.
I was going to replace the orcs with Goblins, scatter some red hand clues around as well as the map to Vraath Keep.

Where would be a good place to put this?

Forge of Fury is a pretty common lead-in to RHOD, at least on what I've seen from the previous thread, adapting it a little as you say so it has a connection to the Red Hand.

In terms of locations, Elsir Vale's got a lot of undefined locations in which the Forge could be left. The Hammerfist Holds, which are located in the Wyvernwatch Mountains, being the mountain range on the southern end of the Vale, are basically a small collection of dwarven towns rather than a dwarven kingdom as such. There's room to suggest a dwarven kingdom in the southeastern section of those mountains was shattered by the raiding orcs of Forge of Fury. The dwarves, retreating from that end of the mountain range, eventually established the Hammerfist Holds at the western end of the Wyvernwatch Mountains. This would probably have to happen before or around the time of the rise of Rhestilor, but it's workable.

Another location might be on the north side of the Giantshield, the mountain range in the northeast corner of the Vale; it's out-of-the-way enough so the locals haven't been poking around in there and the weapons might be making their way to the Red Hand via Rhest.

Another I saw was where the plot hook wound up being that the dark dwarves in FoF had restarted the Forge and were selling large amounts of weapons/armor to the Red Hand, hence all the MW equipment. The party found a letter detailing the weapon shipments, so the party went to the Elsir about a week's travel to investigate.

redking

2022-11-19, 01:51 AM

No Running RHOD in the Dark Sun setting, I see.

Saintheart

2022-11-20, 05:52 AM

No Running RHOD in the Dark Sun setting, I see.

Would you like to write one?

redking

2022-11-20, 09:34 AM

Would you like to write one?

No. I like Dark Sun but I'm hardly qualified to give advice about RhoD.

Saintheart

2022-11-20, 09:53 PM

Well, looking back through the old thread, it appears there's a little material on it, albeit not referenced directly in the handbook. Starts here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?171284-The-3-5-Red-Hand-Of-Doom-Handbook-for-DMs-Major-spoilers!-WIP-PEACH!&p=20379810&highlight=Dark+Sun#post20379810) with this quote...

So I just had a strange idea, born of desperation. Why desperation? Well, I really REALLY want to run RHoD as the next adventure in my weekly game, but I also really REALLY want to run my long-planned Dark Sun campaign with Psionics and sh**. Which will probably take up the better part of a year, maybe even more. So my idea was: why not combine the two? Locate RHoD somewhere on borders of the Tablelands, make up a bunch of small settlements, replace Azarr Kul and Tiamat with, I dunno, a forgotten Sorcerer-King that everyone assumed was long dead and is now raising an army of belgoi or something, and play the damn thing in the brutal deserts of Athas. Two birds, one stone. No?

Well, the first, most obvious problem I see is that RHoD and Dark Sun don't mesh all that well in terms of tone. The former is a pretty classic D&D adventure setup and assumes mostly good-aligned heroes who will go out of their way to help the civilian population. The latter posits a world of greed and violence, with little room left for kindness thanks to the immense pressure of everyday survival. So you have to find a better hook for the adventure or it might not take off at all, and you have to include a few more incentives along the way - the players might play characters that are of pure heart, but chances are they're in it for the money and the booze. Which in Dark Sun translates to a a pile of ceramic pieces and a jar full of cactus juice moonshine, so whatever.

Second, in Dark Sun there are no valleys littered with small villages and farms, and even less forests or swamps. At least not if you want to stay on the Tablelands, which I would very much like to (the additions made by the Expanded and Revised Campaign Setting didn't do a lot for me personally). The problem is again one of tone, since it's very easy to just create a bunch of new villages in the desert. But in Dark Sun, settlements are supposed to be few and far between, and every year a few more go up in smoke or get swallowed by the desert. The few forests and oases that still exist are either poisonous hellholes that will eat your face or are watched over by crazy druids who will also eat your face. So either you make Elsir Vale an exception (which then begs the question of why the heck the area is not occupied by a vicious Sorcerer-King or a bunch of face-eating druids), or you reduce RHoD's scale and remove a few of the settlements or decrease the populations drastically and replace the forest areas with tiny oases or petrified forests or something. Which is doable, but... I dunno... maybe too much effort.

Third, there can't be any dragons in the adventure, because Dark Sun has only the dragon. Not a dragon, THE dragon. And you don't want to involve him, you really don't. The adventure is like 15 levels early for that kind of epic shenanigans. Since adventures with dragons are cool, this is a sad fact. Dark Sun has of course its own bestiary full of awesome and crazy monsters that are more than capable to replace the standard D&D dragons, but it is still the loss of an iconic element. Damn.

On the other hand, Dark Sun is no stranger to clashing armies - the Prism Pentad series (mediocre as it was) shows military conflict on a scale that matches the size of the Red Hand as depicted by RHoD. Uniting a bunch of small factions against a common enemy is also something that works very well in Dark Sun since every clan and every village pretty much do their own thing but everyone hates defilers. So that angle works right out of the book.

Also, the stakes are infinitly higher in Dark Sun. Not only because a rampaging Sorcerer-King is bad news for everyone, but also because if the player characters don't succeed at stopping the Red Hand (or whatever you might call it in Athas), there are no reinforcements. Or, to be more precise, the reinforcements that exist are not friendly because they are the army of another Sorcerer-King. And if they come around, they stay - which nobody wants. You might say that's another strike against the idea of RHoD in Dark Sun idea, but to be honest I like it a lot.

So in the end, I don't know. Maybe it's doable, maybe it's just a very bad idea all-around... and I haven't even touched on the subject of converting RHoD's creatures and encounters to something compatible with Dark Sun and Psionics. What do you think?

northernbard80

2022-11-24, 04:30 PM

vasilidor

2022-11-24, 04:43 PM

If one wants to run it using the Spheres system I have already thought of a few changes for the warrior npc class that could be of use. give the npc class the proficient progression and trade out initial proficiencies for a martial tradition. Then you give each group of mercenaries/soldiers a tradition that fits their roles. Giants with the Barrage sphere for rock hurlers for example.

Saintheart

2023-01-11, 02:19 AM

jmax

2023-01-11, 08:05 AM

Next short query: anyone ever put up a mini-quest or series of encounters for the party that wants to conduct guerrilla warfare against the Red Hand as it makes its approach to Brindol? Happy to hear of any suggestions, the module's a bit light on in that respect and if someone's got a rough outline of ideas that'd be great to include in here somewhere.

I think I touched on this a little bit previously - and I've only ever been a player in the module, not the DM - but I think you could leave that open-ended. Let them be creative. Just give the PCs the option by having an NPC float it if they don't think of it themselves. Rather than pigeon-hole the PCs into specific ways to approach it, let them come up with how to do it themselves and award either Victory Points or material benefits appropriate to how impactful they are.

If you want to, you can float a couple of default options, but there are so many possibilities for this that I think half the fun is seeing what the players come up with. If they have trouble coming up with things, give them some seeds in the form of broad categories:

Disrupt or destroy or steal supplies
Sabotage important equipment
Delay and impede mobility
Gather good intelligence
Plant bad intelligence
Pick off stray soldiers or support personnel - but it has to be a LOT to be meaningful
Assassinate or capture important personnel - probably mid-level or higher officers, but maybe key support people also, like the chief quartermaster
Degrade morale or combat effectiveness

Look to the existing VP allocation list to try to gauge how much each of those things should be worth. For example, if the PCs create a delay of 2-3 days, that should be worth as much as destroying Skull Gorge Bridge.

One beautiful thing with this is that it can take the place of quests and objectives already within the module. Like most pre-fab modules, Red Hand of Doom is a little rail-roady, and that is a shortcoming. This is nice and open-ended, and it's plausible that the PCs could make up for failures or non-action elsewhere.

For specifically killing rank-and-file troops, I would probably divide the total army size (as published or as you've determined it) by 40 (the "victory" threshold) and grant 1 VP per block they eliminate. If they eliminate a special group - like if they take out the spawn for the Streets of Blood encounter or kill a stray wyrmlord - award the same VP as if they did it at the "correct" part of the module, or if it's not something already baselined, just ballpark it. Set all the wargs loose, resulting in most of them running away or getting killed/injured in recapture while also injuring dozens or hundreds of soldiers? Sure, I'd give a VP for that. Kill off most of the heal-bots by poisoning the water supply for the priests' little enclave? Take two.

This is a great opportunity to let the players be creative and see what they come up with. Grab a beer and watch the show.

smetzger

2023-03-03, 11:21 PM

Saintheart

2023-03-05, 02:29 AM

Getting closer to me running this. My group switched back and forth between DMs and the current campaign (running 15+ years off and on) is coming to an end.

So...
Starting with Forge of Fury which will have heavy clues to Vraath Keep.

What background info should I give the players?
1. Characters should be motivated to protecting humans and demi humans in a frontier.
2. If you have a favored enemy - goblinoid would be a good choice
3. share history of Vale

Anything else?

Honestly that's enough of a teaser. RHOD fares better when characters don't have a lot of advance preparation, mainly because it makes the alliance with dragons, the creation of a whole army, and the spawn of Tiamat much more interesting.

The history of the Vale isn't heavily relevant to the campaign, though I tend to twine a bit more history into it as it goes to give the story more flesh and context. Lean into the fact that most of the settlements have some link with the forgotten kingdom of Rhestilor (including that Vraath Keep was the westernmost outpost of the place) and that should generate some ideas for adding 'collectible' bits of information as you go - e.g. faded heraldric carvings on old buildings which have the motto of Rhestilor (whatever you choose it to be) and hint that the Ghostlord was an ancient enemy of the Rhestilorian kings, and work it from there.

Kol Korran

2023-03-06, 01:01 PM

A question if I may:
I recently bought and read the Savage Pathfinder ruleset (I'll abbreviate it as SPF from now on). It seems ideal for RHoD! For several reasons:
# The Wild Card vs. Extras mechanic is ideal for campaigns featuring a large number of disposable troops, led by various elite individuals.

# The extras "1 hit to disable" mechanic and relative simplicity will likely enable to put more of them in a battle, thus creating a more believable "army unit" feel, than the 3.5/PF mooks, which though are simpler than major combatants, are still more complicated and a greater hassle to handle than the SPF ones.
.
# Another advantage of the SPF combat, wounds and exploding die system is that the mooks remain a credible threat, even up to the battle of Brindol. In 3.5/PF the mooks gradually lose being a threat, until they are mostly speed bumps, but in SPF a good hit by a mook can still hurt you. Numbers matter more, and that is a major aspect of what an army campaign is about.

# The simplicity of hirelings/ escorts in SPF, combined with leadership edges, makes having NPCs along with the group simple to use and adds to the game, which can be a great experience in a military campaign, which I've always felt lacked in RHoD.

# The wound/ Health system in SPF, Combined with the time scale limit of RHoD, can actually work well. It is well known that the time scale is very permissive and easy. But in SPF, if you are wounded and not healed within the hour, it can take you 3-5 days to heal actual injuries! This makes smart fighting more important, to avoid wasting time on healing, and the time limit enables "absorbing" 1-2 times of being wounded and not healed in time.

# Another factor that emphasizes smart fighting, recon, and such is the power system in SPF. Dur to their range being nore limited than 3.5/PF, The party doesn't have the full arsenal of 3.5/PF wizard and cleric lists, and have to plan accordingly, acquire tools/ magical supplies/ hire specialists and such.

# One last thing: Many groups in RHoD seek to take initiative and perform additional strikes/ missions against the advancing hordes, be it taking special elite troops, damaging supply lines and more. Yet the module has little to support this, and 3.5/PF is a cumbersome system to quickly improvise/ whip out the needed stats, DCs and such. Also, taking time to play this impromptu "side missions" can take a whole lot of time in 3.5/PF, and so many groups and GMs may be very reluctant/ discourage these ventures.

SPF has a solution- The GM special kits, such as Dramatic Encounters and other such tools provide an excellent way to do these "side missions" quickly, possibly also by leading/ assigning NPCs to do them, in a quick, narrative but rule supported basis.

Of course, adjusting RHoD to SPF requires some work, but... Not a whole lot, I think.

I tried searching, but I found no conversion (Not even to Savage Worlds, the original system). Does anyone here knows of one possibly?

Saintheart

2023-03-07, 01:26 AM

vasilidor

2023-03-10, 09:08 PM

The Red Hand of Doom, having just recently acquired it, seems to have ways for even underperforming classes to shine. With the use of low end mobs and the minimum level of 6. By then even most monks should be capable of outperforming low end mooks. it is generally against things that have close CR to level that give monks problems. Same for a lot of other classes. Though some parties may have issues with bosses.

xkaliburr

2023-03-18, 01:44 PM

Saintheart

2023-03-18, 08:41 PM

While the suggestions for Kharn's improvements are great, I think a big problem is action economy. He has the Hill Giants and Ogres, but I get the drift that their main function is to crowd control the rest of the allies, since Kharn wants to personally kill the party. With that said, it mentions in the module that he has two lovers, Pash Kari, a warpriest and Ruven, a War adept. Do you think the potential problems with Kharn could also be fixed by having these two ladies at his side, and maybe just buffing them up a bit more?

That makes for an excellent idea, and I'll update the guide to point out that RHOD actually has a potential solution hidden away in its own text.

The only caution I'd have is this: the way the writers put together the module, I think what they had in mind was that by the time the PCs get to Kharn, most of their daily-use abilities have been stripped away in the preceding confrontations. So Kharn is 'meant' to push the party to its limit but he's meant to still lose. You just have to be careful, or at least take a realistic look, at what the party can do when it hits that final confrontation, and adjust up or down as required. If the party isn't optimised and in particular if it's running mostly Tier 3 characters, it shouldn't be necessary to heavily alter that last encounter.

jmax

2023-03-18, 10:47 PM

That makes for an excellent idea, and I'll update the guide to point out that RHOD actually has a potential solution hidden away in its own text.

The only caution I'd have is this: the way the writers put together the module, I think what they had in mind was that by the time the PCs get to Kharn, most of their daily-use abilities have been stripped away in the preceding confrontations. So Kharn is 'meant' to push the party to its limit but he's meant to still lose. You just have to be careful, or at least take a realistic look, at what the party can do when it hits that final confrontation, and adjust up or down as required. If the party isn't optimised and in particular if it's running mostly Tier 3 characters, it shouldn't be necessary to heavily alter that last encounter.

That brings up an always-interesting conundrum: Do you adjust on the fly to adapt the challenge to the PCs' state when they get to it? They'll never know, but it always feels wrong.

We had a pretty close fight with Kharn despite having a well-optimized party, but my wife beefed up Kharn and gave him a retinue of half a dozen trolls, at least one of which was a Troll Hunter (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm#trollHunter). That definitely solved the action economy problem! Those things were a real pain with strong primary spellcaster support. She also gave him some triggered Heal spell (I forget the specific one - if she ever told us) that topped him off when he was most of the way down - that was a nasty surprise. Especially since it bought more time for the trolls to pop back up.

Saintheart

2023-03-18, 11:38 PM

That brings up an always-interesting conundrum: Do you adjust on the fly to adapt the challenge to the PCs' state when they get to it? They'll never know, but it always feels wrong.

And therein lies the case for not heavily beefing up the encounters in the Battle of Brindol - because it's basically meant to be a long gauntlet with the PCs basically down to their last slots by the end of the fight with Kharn. And adapting on the fly is a lot easier for PbP campaigns than FtF, that's for sure.

I think it depends on what your priorities as a DM are, and it is really personal taste since every table has a different mix of people. The fight with Kharn is meant to be super-climactic, the book all but says so. So the players burning all their reserves on an earlier fight and getting curbstomped in the last confrontation - I would suggest - would feel wrong to a big proportion of DMs too. I admit to my failings and lack of remorselessness, I'd probably lean a little on the scales to make sure the party wins in that one.

But you can rescue a curbstomp with those nice guidelines you built for the overall result of the campaign depending on how many VPs the party amassed by the battle's end, i.e. if the party TPKs in the final battle, have them all resurrected afterward by newly-levelled-up Tredora Goldenbrow (who got to that status by finishing Kharn off, the party having weakened him and his cohorts enough for the NPCs to finish the job.)

Going down that line I think needs some advance work, though, call it buying an insurance policy: I think you'd want to give Tredora and Jarmaath more rounded and likeable NPC personalities while heavily avoiding them doing anything to overshadow the PCs, e.g. make sure that Jarmaath is down for the count out of the sniper attack and emphasise that Tredora is doing some other crucially important dam-holding maneuver elsewhere in the city so she can't come in to save the day until afterward, a la the way they completely sideline Dr. Strange's campaign-saving powers in Avengers Endgame by having him stuck holding back a waterspout and only available to give Tony Stark the finger.

DigoDragon

2023-03-20, 02:54 PM

Do you think the potential problems with Kharn could also be fixed by having these two ladies at his side, and maybe just buffing them up a bit more?

If I remember it right, the GM fixed the action economy by having all the NPC allies clumped together at the start of combat and then subjected to a Spike Growth spell which tied them up for two rounds. Mileage varies I guess.

Draz74

2023-05-14, 07:32 PM

Can't say I've ever heard of one - RHOD doesn't get a lot of conversions off-D&D, fifth ed is about as far as it goes (I think someone might've tried a Neverwinter Nights 2 mod of it somewhere) but I've never heard of any. Either way, still an interesting prospect to look into.

Hmm, I just found this thread while thinking about converting RHoD to my house ruled version of Mutants and Masterminds...

Wacky89

2023-05-28, 09:37 AM

my party has a horse wagon and are on their way into the witchwood to see Jorr.
Would the townsfolk advise against that?

smetzger

2023-05-28, 09:04 PM

Saintheart

2023-05-29, 02:55 AM

my party has a horse wagon and are on their way into the witchwood to see Jorr.
Would the townsfolk advise against that?

Jorr's seen as a bit of a recluse but I see nothing in RHOD to say he's an evil or dangerous man, I think the comments on going to see him in the swamp would be more along the lines of "Go right ahead, but try and catch him when he isn't sniffing toadstools, and be careful - he doesn't like strangers or uninvited guests."

If the question is whether the townsfolk will advise against taking a wagon into the swamp, well, someone might comment "If you're takin' that thing up the Dawn Way you won't have problems, but otherwise it's all forest trails and fallen logs in there - not sure if you'll necessarily get your rig through."

The issue of course being: what happens if the party takes the townsfolk's advice?

vasilidor

2023-05-29, 12:25 PM

If I ever run this campaign, I will be converting it to use with the Spheres system in Pathfinder. Wouldn't be too hard to make the switch I think.
Though it does change how some encounters will go though.

smetzger

2023-06-01, 01:39 PM

Some thoughts on the link between Battle of Brindol and Fane of Tiamat. I like the sacrifice of the battle is part of the ritual. Here is a fleshed out version of that...

Post-Battle

Big feast and celebration.
Talk of uniting the vale turns into an argument(not everyone wants to have fealty to Brindol). Talk of hunting down any remaining hobgoblins that fled
Near the end there is an earthquake. Not large enough to to any harm. A couple of badly damaged buildings and sections of wall fall, no-one is injured.
Next day…. Reports that captured hobgoblin clerics have killed themselves along with many captured soldiers. One cleric was chained up and was unable to kill himself.
Report of finding a group of 50 hobgoblins who committed suicide 10 miles away.
Interrogation of remaining cleric -
“Tiamat is coming… the sacrifice has been accepted. All hail Tiamat and the new world order. The age of man is over. The age of the dragon is here.”
If pressed further the cleric knows
that the ritual is being completed in the wyrmsmoke mountains.
There is another Wyrmlord… High Wyrmlord Azarr Kul.
Narrow game trail from Vraath Keep leads to location of the ritual.
Day 2 reports start coming in that the earthquake was felt across the entire vale.

smetzger

2023-06-07, 08:02 PM

Here are some adaptation notes for using Forge of Fury as a prequel to Red Hand of Doom

Red Hand has been using the Forge to make their weapons.
Duergar have been commissioned to create the weapons
The dragon has been transporting the weapons
Wymrlord Koth has sent the goblins to go in from the top of the dungeon and kill the Duergar thus the hoard (he in particular) does not have to give them the final payment. Koth thinks the dragon has gotten too chummy with the Duergar and he doesn’t have much sway on the dragon anyway.
The hoard would of course like to continue to have weapons made, so Koth sent two goblin smiths along with the group. They were, however, killed by the fire trap. So, the group decided to go to the nearest settlement (Hillwatch) and capture a couple of smiths (these are the prisoners in room #6).
Hook for Forge of Fury.

The PCs have been guards for a small merchant caravan going from Brindol to Hillwatch.
Once they get to Hillwatch the merchant tells them he feels the road was safe enough and their services are no longer required for the return trip.
Jerossil Indo of Hillwatch asks the PCs for help because a couple of smiths have been captured by goblins a day ago.

The trail of the goblins follows the road west for a days travel and then heads south into the brown hills. Another day of travel will get you to the the Stone Tooth.
Replace orcs with goblins and add 50%
Replace the succubus in room 49 with a Harvester Devil (Fiendish Codex) (presently not part of the Red Hand). If the Harvester Devil escapes it can later join up with the Red Hand and be used in place of the not-so-sick spy (Miha the Aranea).
Replace the Nightscale (black dragon) with Moonscale (white dragon). Yeah, now we have a white dragon in the adventure.
Water in the Black Lake area, Foundry, and Sinkhole are very cold. This is not due to the dragon. Something unknown is causing the water to be extremely cold (cold enough for area 52 to be frozen over). But this is also the source of why the forge is special and items of quality can be made easier.

Full Notes with updates statblocks...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ky8uFrRYTvMJ1kyCrJDrVTbpi8HBZVR7fShV9xG76fI/edit?usp=sharing

AMFV

2023-06-13, 03:03 PM

What about integrating RHoD into Dragonlance?

Half-dragon characters could become draconians. But what about Azarr Kul? Would he be working with Verminaard and/or Takhisis? Or would he be a freelance villain, even opposing those two?

As Dragonlance is more rigid that Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, RHoD on the world of Krynn could be a challenge.

I think there's definitely some possibility there, especially since the overall theming and campaign is very close to what actually happens. I would definitely say that AK should be working with Takhesis. I think I would make him a rival or replacement for Verminard depending on at what time in the story you were placing things. Verminard is pretty thuggish, so having somebody more tactically minded takeover after might be a really good way to crank up that threat dial.

Arparrabiosa

2023-07-10, 05:50 AM

Hello guys,

A few months ago, I resumed my idea of running a PbP RHoD campaign. Maybe you remember, some time ago, I was planning to run it with a Nordic tone. Well, I've discarded that idea and I'm going to take the game to a North African-themed setting called Utuma. I'll pick some ideas from Howl of the Carrion King and Sly Flourish' The Hunger outline. My players from "Las Guerras del Hambre" (The Hunger Wars), if you come across this thread: don't read it, there are many spoilers!

So this time, the Horde will be formed by gnolls from different tribes (inspired by the orcs of Shadow of War), fanatics of a god of carrion and hunger called Y'thal.

The Trophy Hunters: A tribe that prefers stealth and cunning. They are experts in ambushes, traps, betrayals, and snares on the battlefield, and they are known for using poisoned traps and weapons. The tribe has numerous scorpions among their ranks, and they often coat their weapons with venom extracted from these creatures. They are recognizable by their long tradition of adorning themselves with trophies collected from their fallen enemies, sometimes through piercings. The most pierced body parts are usually the ears, often adorned with fangs, claws, or fragments of weapons taken from freshly slain prey. Their leader is Kasha Klikkus: Klikkus is a male Thalgnoth (a homebrew half-infernal gnoll inspired by tanarukks) specialized in archery. He is an expert hunter and is always looking for ways to flank his enemies or set up ambushes. Klikkus is also a skilled tracker, capable of following the trail of his enemies through difficult terrain. He is immune to poison (like all Thalgnoths). I'll probably make him a Ranger/Scout. The PCs will face this tribe in the Witchwood.

The Wild Pack: A feral tribe that draws inspiration from magical beast and animals for their savagery. They fight with the mind and ferocity of beasts. There are many berserkers among them, and they are the tribe that most utilizes predators among their ranks (mainly hyenas and hyaenodons). They are characterized by wearing leather harnesses on their faces bristling with spikes. Their leader is Kasha Lakkush, and she calls herself the Queen of Hyenas: she is an imposing and fierce female gnoll, highly skilled in both melee and ranged combat. Her weapons are coated with a substance that attracts all hyenas to whoever she hits (she could use this in an ambush where Lakkush marks a PC spellcaster and then retreats). She rides a semi-infernal hyaenodon, which is also the alpha female of the pack of hyenas the horde uses in combat. She is cunning and ruthless, always seeking ways to use hyenas to gain an advantage in battle. I'm not sure if I'll make her a Druid/Beastmaster or a Barbarian/Ranger, something like that. The PCs will face this tribe in the elven part.

The Infernal Butchers: An especially warlike tribe that holds great reverence for war and enjoys carnage and unprovoked violence. Their assaults are brutally direct, and they are feared for it. Most of them are Thalgnoths with a semi-infernal lineage, tracing back to the first and legendary female gnoll who devoted herself to Y'thal and became the first mother of Y'thal's bloodline. Since then, many females devoted to Y'thal have given themselves to demons (mostly Vrocs and Glabrezus) to give birth to new Thalgnoths. They are recognized by their claws, eyes glowing with red, and black fur that flares up when they are furious. They use heavy, large battle weapons and wear spiked armors, even under the merciless sun of Utuma because they have fire resistance. They form the shock troops of the Horde and take part in the assault on Brindol. Their leader is Kasha Ugrusk, an imposing male gnoll armed with a greatsword and protected by heavy armor. He is the strongest and most resilient warrior in the horde, capable of enduring large amounts of damage and keep fighting. He is not particularly astute or intelligent, but he is a fierce and determined enemy who never backs down from a challenge.

The Sordaiv: This isolated and endogamous tribe of bedouins (secretly jackal-men) has long been separated from the other travelers in central Utuma, believing that some great injustice was done to them in the distant past. With a number no greater than 20 raiders dressed in ash-colored robes, these shape-changers have the fanatical devotion to Y'thal of newly converted followers. They gather secretly in dark and secluded places to perform sacrifices and rituals in honor of Y'thal. The main objective of the Sordaiv is to pave the way for the arrival of the gnoll hordes in Utuma, and to do so, they perform dark rituals to summon demons and other creatures from Y'thal's plane. The Devourers of Divine Carrion are distinguished by their taste for human flesh and their cannibalistic ritual, where they consume the flesh of their enemies to gain strength and power. Furthermore, they believe that by devouring the flesh of those they consider impure, they are purifying the world and preparing it for the arrival of Y'thal. The Devourers of Divine Carrion are a hidden threat in Utuma, and although they are few in number, their devotion to Y'thal and their willingness to make any sacrifice to achieve their goals make them dangerous. I was thinking of creating a small mystery plot in Brindol about the cult's cannibalistic murders, but I think I'll end up having them in the dwarven part as spies for the horde instead of the araneas.

The Skulls of Darkness: A tribe of necromancers led by the prophetess of Y'thal herself. This tribe is feared for their curses and the presence of undead in their ranks, such as whiterlings (feral ghouls consumed by hunger) and hyena skeletons. Their home is located in a vast complex of tunnels and caverns in the mountains, so deep that other tribes believe it connects to the very Underworld itself: the Hunger Caves of Y'thal. The nature of this tribe's home is much more prosaic, but these gnolls enjoy the fear they provoke in other tribes. The emblem of this tribe is a pyramid-shaped pile of skulls. They use bones to reinforce their armor and skulls as helmets. Their theme revolves around curses, fear spells, and the use of undead. Their leader is Kasha Ahrikul. She is a terrifying flind (from Tome of Horrors I, slightly stronger than a regular gnoll), a necropolitan, and a necromancer who rides a giant carrion crow (geier), a horrifying dire ghoul swarming with flies. My idea is that the PCs will face the Skulls of Darkness in the last part of the adventure, in the dungeon of the temple.

I'm also going to make the structure of the game more flexible. I wanted to set up the first part as a pointcrawl in the Witchwood (now a forest of oaks and cork trees). I'll expand a couple of thematic locations and keep Vraath Keep and the bridge as important locations (possibly replacing the dragon with a wyvern). From there, Iplan to trace vectors that will allow the PCs to play the elven part, the lich part, or the (added and expanded) dwarven part in any order. Depending on how they progress and the timing, they could play 1-2 of those nodes and arrive at the Battle of Brindol with (hopefully) some allies and having eliminated some tribes or allies of the adversaries.

I will leave the elven part more or less the same, with some cosmetic changes: they are half-satyr elves with legs and horns of the local herbivores, and they use crocodiles to move quickly through the network of rivers, which I may want to expand to make that useful. The lich part will undergo significant modifications. The idea here is that the lich is not a lich anymore, but rather a being with great psychic powers that has managed to infiltrate the hive mind of ant-men. Here, the horde is blackmailing this individual to command the hive to turn all their larvae into warriors (something like the Zerg from Starcraft) because they stole a device that keeps him alive (inspired by Iron Man). This part will involve a dungeon of mud towers or something similar. Lastly, I will add a node to obtain zebra centaurs as allies (as an alternative to the dwarves), pitting them against the jackal-men. I don't have many ideas about this part yet.

From here, depending on the timing, the game will rush towards the assault on Brindol. The idea presented in the handbook of using it as a sort of massive ritual to summon Y'thal makes a lot of sense here and is very fitting considering we are dealing with a deity of carrion. After defeating them (or not) in the Battle of Brindol, the final part would be to prevent Kasha Ahrikul from opening the gates to Y'thal's plane and releasing a powerful avatar.

How does this sound, guys? Any advice or ideas?

Seward

2023-07-11, 02:11 PM

Hello guys,

So this time, the Horde will be formed by gnolls from different tribes (inspired by the orcs of Shadow of War), fanatics of a god of carrion and hunger called Y'thal.

How does this sound, guys? Any advice or ideas?

I'm not sure if this is canon in every setting but a fundamental flaw of Gnolls is they are normally very lazy, which would tend to make them a lot sloppier than hobgoblins in things like keeping strict guard watches, having standardized gear, etc.

I've found this quirk of gnoll nature to be entertaining and a good way to distinguish them from other humanoids. Just a thumbnail example - gnoll druid using casually using animal empathy during a conversation to lure in food because he was too lazy to hunt rather horrified a ranger PC that was interacting with him at the time. (the scene was a lot like in Shreck when Princess Fiona did the princess bird-singing trope which subverted it by exploding the bird and frying its eggs to provide a meal)

Arparrabiosa

2023-07-12, 05:00 AM

I'm not sure if this is canon in every setting but a fundamental flaw of Gnolls is they are normally very lazy, which would tend to make them a lot sloppier than hobgoblins in things like keeping strict guard watches, having standardized gear, etc.

I've found this quirk of gnoll nature to be entertaining and a good way to distinguish them from other humanoids. Just a thumbnail example - gnoll druid using casually using animal empathy during a conversation to lure in food because he was too lazy to hunt rather horrified a ranger PC that was interacting with him at the time. (the scene was a lot like in Shreck when Princess Fiona did the princess bird-singing trope which subverted it by exploding the bird and frying its eggs to provide a meal)

That's an interesting possibility for role-play and flavor. In my world, gnolls are inherently lazy and only exert effort when compelled by a stronger individual. I could incorporate flinds from the Skulls of Darkness, similar to how the Uruk-hai boss around the orcs in Middle Earth. I would have flinds overseeing the gnolls, armed with whips to enforce discipline more rigorously than usual. Alternatively, I could give the Thalgnoths a devil background instead of a demon background and use them instead. Thank you for the suggestion!

Seward

2023-07-13, 07:45 PM

If going the Flind route, PC's should be rewarded for noting the difference and targeting the flinds. Kill the Flind Sgt and the Regulars & Veterans might scatter or surrender barring something like a dragon nearby to keep them in line.

The Red Hand normally being hobgoblins meant the regulars kept morale/discipline pretty good even without leadership with only the goblin worg-riders being iffy, plus maybe a few oddballs like the manticore in the first keep, or the ogres supporting the swamp group.

smetzger

2023-09-12, 09:47 PM

Wahoo... finally started the campaign.
Forge of Fury first then on to Red Hand.

The cast...
Gladette Stonefall - Half-Elf - Rogue 3
Oliver Sharpclaw - Tibit - Rogue 1/Sorcerer 2
Felix Foresthead - Shifter (Razor Claw-Feline) - Druid 3 Oscar - oscelot? animal campanion
Denshar - Rakasta - Samurai 3

and hopefully will be joined by a Bard next session

Ran 1 session, I'll figure out a good place to post the session write ups.

So... we have 3 cat themed characters. Given that Brindol and the area has a link to lions...
Any suggestions for a prophecy where lions/cats come back to save the vale from the end times.
A quote or two that people can mutter in awe and wonder when they see the characters?

Metastachydium

2023-09-13, 10:24 AM

Metastachydium

2023-09-17, 03:39 PM

(A funny thing: ever since my go at RHoD under the superb guidance and DMship of none other than Saintheart fell through, I've been working on a version that has cats as the Red Hand's rank and file (catfolk as Hobgoblins, anthropomorphic cats as Goblins, Gnolls as Bugbears and awakened cheetahs with INT 5 as Worgs).)

You know what? I might as well begin to compile what I've got right here. Here it goes:

THE RED HAND OF DOOM IN METASTACHYDIUM'S VERY OWN PROJECT SIKELIS HOMEBREWN OVERALL WORLD
(Now with More Cats to Casually Slaughter)

I. Someday, I'll find the time and energy to put Project Sikelis up here in the Worldbuilding thread; till then, however, some basic assumption regarding its cosmology, geopolitics and demography will have to suffice:

https://i.ibb.co/P6TCx2f/Untitled-K.png

1. The Unitary Domain
2. The Stable Matter
3. The Boundless
4. The Pit
5. The Greater Fountain
6. The Lesser Fountains
7. The Cloud
8. The Shadow
9. The Greywater (aka the Shining Sea)
10. Barrier realms
11. Instances of Overflow
12. The Pomoerium

1.1. Project Sikelis doesn't follow the pattern of the usual faith-powered polypantheonic kitchen sink of D&D; the wealth of options such a setup provides has its undoubtable merits (and fits well with the 3.5 paradigm of POWER OPTIONS, UNLIMITED POWER OPTIONS!!), but it holds little appeal to me, personally;
1.2. therefore its cosmology has an accordingly different structure, shaped by a dualistic split between two realm-entities and their spheres of influence; these are the Divine Principles, known as the Arkhē and the Plethys, and they (roughly speaking) embody Law and Chaos, respectively;
1.3. the world is not their deliberate creation, but rather emerged as an accident as a kind of balance point within the Barrier, where the influences of these entities mix and clash; it is ultimately one of several Barrier Realms, albeit the least volatile one, called by savants the Stable Matter.

2.1. In other ways, Project Sikelis really is an absolute kitchen sink;
2.2. chief of which is the array of races it has on offer, which is pretty much all races;
2.3. with a few notable exceptions (full Drow, replaced by Lesser Szarkai in the doesn't-lik-the-daylight niche and Goblins, aka Deep Elves in the Elf-Lives-Underground niche; Warforged in all forms and shapes; Tibbits…);
2.4. but, just as importantly, even fewer of these come with racial monocultures (the two exceptions being the homebrewn Stone Elves; and the mostly extinct Catfolk, both for reasons related to small population size and limited geographic spread);
2.5. whereby Humans stop being special; and
2.6. most if not all official fluff goes out the window (e.g. one of the Great Powers is an extremely Lawful Kenku-dominated meritocracy, while another is an Ogrekin steppe empire).

More on this as I proceed with this affair.

II. How does Tiamat fit into this setup?

1. She doesn't, as a deity. But deities in D&D are somewhat poorly designed, so to speak: they are obscenely strong, yes, but they have stats. And if it has stats…
2. Which is quite useful for our purposes here. It makes her a good fit in this cosmology as an obscenely strong, unique Outsider – a tier below divinity. She would work quite well as a powerful Barrier Entity, controlling a Barrier Realm other than the Stable Matter – and trapped within its bounds. (Interplanar travel in Project Sikelis… Can be tricky.) Which, in turn, gives her a good incentive to try odd gambits in the hope of finding a way to expand – such as raising some ruckus in some backwater area through agents she can hope will fly below the radars she doesn't want to ping.

III. How backwater are we talking?

Very. I placed my version of the Vale somewhere extremely out of sight. It sits in an awkward position, wedged between five or six regions, not truly fitting into any of these:

1. to its west, it has the Saw, a great mountain range running north to south, with no major pass through it at this latitude;
2. to its northwest are the southern reaches of the Scissors, and from within there, Ti-An, the territory inhabited by a loose tribal confederacy in forever war with its northern neighbour, Essdra, an important regional mid-power;
3. to the south lies the Salt Coast, an inhospitable strip of land between the mountains and the sea that nobody really wants; and
4. to the northeast, beyond a string of rugged hills and a wide gulf, Ara Meot (or E-Makhar, depending on which local ethnic group one asks), a polity with of the Bay of Dates with strong cultural ties to, well, the rest of the Bay.

Geographically, the Vale could be argued to be part of the Scissors or the Bay, but it has little in the way of anything else that could bind it to either, be it cultural, economic, diplomatic or military in nature. Trade trickles down into it from the north, but its neighbours don't see the Vale as an important partner. Ships doing the Circumnavigation will sometimes stop in its main port en route to Arvara in the south, but the citry state of Qherak and even Belar in southern E-Makhar are more popular among captains.

It holds what the wind has blown into it. What happens to that is nothing anyone cares about.

Have a map, for reference:

https://i.ibb.co/5YLQw7b/Untitled-2.png

IV. So it has anything one might possibly wants to throw into it. Why not Goblins?

The Vale has a mixed population, much more so than in the original. It could have Goblins, in theory, but the thing is, I've always felt that this game has many more goblinoids than it needs, so Project Sikelis kind of doesn't have (the uniquely bland, but at least over-LA-ed) Hobgoblins and Bugbear… It is only used as a slur word to denote Quaggoths.

Goblins (or Lesser Orcs, a subgroup of Robust Elves, encompassing standard Goblins, Snow Goblins/Screaming Elves and Forestkith) exist, but they are not really any more threatening than anywhere ever, and in fact, much less so. Enter the picture, therefore, the cats.

Catfolk in Project Sikelis used to be a thing, but basically aren't anymore in modern times. How did they end up mostly extinct? Well… They are cats. Convinced of their own superiority and giving in to their murderous urges, many, many of them banded together into one of the few racially based international projects of history and began to wage a series of extermination wars against the world. It went… Poorly, for them. But if a larger population of them survived anywhere, the hills between Ti-An and the Vale are a good plave where they could hole up to harass (ironically) Goblins and such.

Their past misdeeds are also convenient: whatever Tiamat needs them to do is nothing they didn't do before, so it is reasonable to assume she can convince them that whatever something little extra she can provide is just the little edge they always needed to have another go at it. Now, what's that something little extra? Or,

V. What does this mean in terms of the Hand's composition?

Well, it's a change of theme, certainly. From "Bad Guy Races of the World and All Worlds Unite" we go to… Cats. But not just that. This Red Hand has two components, each with its strict thematic cohesion:

1. feline muscle and numbers;
2. with a draconic brain behind the operation.

Added to that, as a bonus, we have some mercenaries draconic money can buy. But I didn't go too wild with those.

Let's see the exact changes I'm proposing here, going from grunts to leadership:

Red Hand (Original Flavour)
Red Hand (Project Sikelis)

800×Hobgoblin Warrior 1 (CR1/2)→
→800×Catfolk Warrior 1 (CR 1/2)1

1338×Hobgoblin Warrior 2 (CR1)→
→1338×Catfolk Warrior 2 (CR11)

62×Hobgoblin Warrior 2 (CR1)→
→62×Whitespawn Hordeling (CR1)

200×Hobgoblin Warrior 2 (CR1)→
→100×Goatfolk (CR2)(mercenaries)2

100×Hobgoblin Warrior 4 (CR3)→
→100×Catfolk Warrior 4 (CR3)3

100×Hobgoblin Warrior 4 (CR3)→
→100×Gnoll Hunter Barbarian 2 (CR3)4

200×Goblin Fighter 3 (CR3)→
200×Anthropomorphic Cat Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2 (CR3)

200×Worg→
→200×Awakened Cheetah (with Worg-level Intelligence)

30×Hobgoblin Monk 4 (CR4)→
→30×Catfolk Battle Dancer 4 (CR4)

Sergeants: 200×Hobgoblin Fighter 3 (CR3)→
→Sergeants: 200×Catfolk Dirty Thug Fighter 3 (CR3)5

Bladebearers: 60×Hobgoblin Fighter 4 (CR4)→
→Bladebearers: 60×Frostblood Orc Paladin of Tyranny 1/Fighter 2/Warblade 1 (CR4)6

Blood Ghosts: 84×Bugbear Barbarian 2 (CR4)→
→Bleeding7 Ghosts: 84×Gnoll Duskblade 17/Barbarian 2 (CR4)

Blood Ghosts: 16×Bugbear Barbarian 2 (CR4)→
→Bleeding7 Ghosts: 16×Gnoll Duskblade 17/Barbarbarian 3 (CR4)

16×Manticore→
→16×Manticore

5×Hieracosphinx→
→5×Manticore8

30×Barghest→
→30×Vorr8

10×Greater Barghest→
→10×Advanced Vorr8

50×Blackspawn Raider→
50×Blackspawn Raider

100×Ogre (CR3)→
→100×Wemic (CR3)9

20×Ogre (CR3)→
→20×Dragonkin (CR4)9

3–15×Greenspawn Razorfiend→
3–15×Greenspawn Razorfiend

22×Hill Giant→
→20×Hill Giant (mercenaries)10

8×Wyvern→
8×Wyvern

N/A→
→N×Fireblood Dwarf/Fire Gnome Expert 2/Warrior 1 (CR2)(combat engineers)

78×Hobgoblin Cleric 3 (CR3)→
78×Catfolk Cleric 3 (CR3)

22×Hobgoblin Cleric 3 (CR3)→
→22×Kobold Cleric 22 (CR3)

War Adepts: 6×Hobgoblin Sorcerer 6 (CR6)→
→War Adepts: 6×Kobold Sorcerer 6 (CR6)(incl. Ruven)

War Adepts: 2×Hobgoblin Sorcerer 6 (CR6)→
→War Adepts: 2×Redspawn Arcaniss (CR6)

War Adepts: 3×Hobgoblin Sorcerer 6 (CR6)→
→War Adepts: 3×Catfolk Sorcerer 6 (CR6)11

War Adepts: 2×Hobgoblin Sorcerer 6 (CR6)→
→War Adepts: 2×Spellscale Sorcerer 6 (CR6)(incl. the Aide)

Mindbenders: 2×Hobgoblin Bard 6/Mindbender 2 (CR8)→
→Mindbenders: 2×Catfolk Bard 6/Mindbender 1 (CR8)

Mindbenders: 4×Hobgoblin Bard 6/Mindbender 2 (CR8)→
→Mindbenders: 4×Spellscale Bard 6/Mindbender 1 (CR8)12

Warpriests: 3×Hobgoblin Cleric 7/Warpriest 1 (CR8)→
→Warpriests: 3×Catfolk Cleric 7/Warpriest 1 (CR8)

Warpriests: 4×Hobgoblin Cleric 7/Warpriest 1 (CR8)→
→Warpriests: 4×Kobold Cleric 7/Warpriest 1 (CR8)

_________________________________________
1With Weapon Finesse, carrying a rapier and a light shield or with Power Attack, carrying a trident. Add longbows as needed.
2With Brutal Throw and Power Attack, carrying a spear or longspear and javelins.
3Equipped as warriors and regulars, but the bows should have more generous strength rating. Sprinkle in counterintuitive weapons such as scythes and flails. [Second feat?]
4I envisioned these as dedicated archers. High strength rating longbows, PBS and Precise Shot. Simple longswords for melee
5Weapon Finesse and TWF, for more Sneak Attacks. Shortswords in dual wielding.
6I'd give them very masterwork falchions. Feats as follows: B: Endurance; 1: Diehard; F2: Power Attack; 3: Steadfast Determination; F3: Power Lunge.
7I changed the name and added the Duskblade level because the idea of the elite berserkers ritually cutting themselves before engaging in combat struck me as cool, and Blade of Blood allows that to have a mechanical effect.
8These recommended changes are for thematic reasons. I especially doubt Hieracosohinges (partly BIRDIES!) would mix well with the cats, but Barghests are alos really just weird dogs.
9The reason for the swaps is partly thematic here once more, but Ogres in Project Sikelis also kind of fill a different niche.
10For the reason why 2 giants were removed, see the next section on unique antagonists.
11Consider replacing Sorcerer levels with Warmage levels for the Catfolk, indicating that they are less born with this capacity in their lifeblodd and more trained to serve as artillery.
12Draconic and feline operatives can be further differentiated by making the former Beguilers.

Have a picture of two Bladebearers for flavour:

https://i.ibb.co/zNv3jtR/CaptureF.png

VI. What about the boss monsters, though? (Dramatis Personae, part 1: Unique Antagonists)

Let's start small, perhaps. With

The Minotaur Person:
–the Minotaur Person (Karkilan, or whatever) is never really going to be any good(, which is a pity; being Koth's only friend ever makes Minotaur Person automatically interesting in my eyes). One might as well go wild with, then! The Guide recommends giving him (her?) some Barbarian stuff. I concur. But for thematic and unbalance reasons, it has to be Spiritual Lion Totem, of course. Gives good synergy with the Minotaur's own built-in charge stuff. Oh, and I'd have her (him?) carry a Minotaur greathammer, probably. Because, you know, Minotaur.

Then we have, of course

Wyrmlord Koth himself, the Friend That Nobody Likes:
–Not going Bugbear (not existing is a rough deal) helps here. I considered full Rakshasa, but that's a tad too much; so the way to go, it'd seem to me, is using the standard exchange to Gnoll, but with the Half-Rakshasa template. That leaves 5 points of CR to go Wizard 5, so…

→Half-Rakshasa Gnoll Wizard 5 (CR7)

Next in order would be
Wyrmlord Saarvith:
–I'll aggree that Original Flavour Saarvith is just bland and underpowered. He also has a BIRDY companion who mostly exists to be harmed. That will not stand. First, I'd say, he needs a better chassis than little Humanoid. At this point, I don't suppose anyone's surprised that my answer to that is Greenspawn Sneak. They are small, have good synergy for what Saarvith is supposed to be doing and are even related to Razorfiends, kind of. I'd go Swift Ambusher, then. Just add Ranger 2/Scout 4 for CR8 and lots of precision damage to dish out fighting dirty. All set:

→Greenspawn Sneak Ranger 2/Scout 4 (CR8)

Wyrmlord Ulwai, our following stop:
–is kind of good to go with a more reasonable spell list. The race, naturally, needs swapping out; my idea is to land her as the only top-ranking Catfolk other than the Half-Dragon at the very top. I think it's a better way of sticking out than simply being the Smurfette, and the CHA synergy is good for Bard. Given her lightning theme, I don't think making her an Azarr-Kuul Lite is out of question either. She could have the Draconic template for that, meaning yet more CHA, and marginally better staying power baked into the chassis. Stormsinger 4 doesn't do that much for her anyhow.

→Draconic Catfolk Bard 5/Stormsinger 3 (CR9)

While we are here, we might take a look at

Varanthian as well:
–She's… There, I suppose. But she's not really a terribly good fit. Yes, she's too big for the lair. And yes, she's not even a dragon. I think we can do better on the "not even a dragon" front than that. A possible solution that fits into the mosaic I'm trying to lay out here snugly is yet another Dragonspawn. Namely, a Blackspawn Stalker. It's only Large; it's very creepy and basically made to wreak havoc in the dark underground; and it's, well, a Spawn of Tiamat. Only needs 3 extra HD to be right.

→Advanced (13 HD) Blackspawn Stalker (CR 10)

…which, finally, brings us to the Dragon. And the other kind of Dragon too:

High Wyrmlord Hravek Kharn:
–So, this is an impossibly demented idea, but hear me out, now. The Kharn I envision is the kind of person who makes people expect someone taller. A Kobold. And not just any Kobold: a Red Dragonwrought Kobold. Instant basis for bonding with Abithriax! Bad puns on trope names! The works! What I think would carry such a character well would obviously not being physically/visually imposing, but rather being able to cast a big shadow with a little body. So, character. Personality. What I'd recommend is a calm, calculating, but genuinely affable brand of Evil who takes the thing with Koth and Karkilan a bit further. Having a Red Dragon around already helps set that up; having Kobolds in the top ranks, doubly so. My Hravek Kharn is a surprisingly wholesome family man. He doesn't keep two lovers. Pash-Kari, who's in a similar ballpark in terms of power is his wife. Ruven Kharn, his daughter, whom he mostly keeps by his side in and out of battle. For a little bone thrown to the feline side of this whole invasion affair, I'd also give him a pet, bridging the gap between the two halves of the force involved: a Dragonne mount he is compact and light enough to ride.
–Now, to more crunchy waters. His official classes must, simply put, go. I rather wanted to have him enough divine caster levels to rock 5ths for Righteous Might, and tried to work atound Champion Cleric to build that up, but let's face it: while Kharn has to be dangerous in combat, this version just doesn't make sense as a melee beast trying to rip people apart. More like, someone who tries to get the PCs switch sides through civil conversation – while making a serious effort to incapacitate or kill them. That should mean leaning into the charismatic side of things. So how do I make a charismatic Chosen Champion? Raising the bets and making them doubly chosen with lots of uses for a high CHA sounds like a way to do that. A way to swing that way, I'd argue, is Eldritch Disciple, with enough effective Invoker levels for Lessers. I'd pick up Flee the Scene, and back it up with the Damage Reduction patron's gift, as well as the Fearful Glare one to drive the point of long shadow further home. So,

→Red Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric 4/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 5 (CR10)

Last, but not least, there is

Wyrmlord of Wyrmlord Azarr-Kuul himself:
–[…to whom I'll get back.]

And that would be most of the official guys covered (except Miha Serani, who's fine as she is, mostly, Skather who stays a Blackspawn Raider, obviously, with levels in Shadow Sun-heavy Swordsage, most likely, and the true dragons on whom I cannot treat much differently than Saintheart himself, changes in setting or not).

Now, I promised some surprises as well on this front. There's two things I definitely wanted to do ever since I came up with this idea (amd ever since I've been first exposed to RHoD, really) as well as a third that occured to me when educating myself regarding the Battle of Brindol. What these have in common is that they require colourful little extra NPC antagonist to throw into the mix, who all come with the added bonus that there is absolutely no need to use them, should anyone view them as less fun than what fun I had with them. They are, in order of likely appearance:

Vilett, the other spy:
–When I first saw Koth's records, it occured to me that the more subtle way of intelligence gathering on the Hand's part focuses a bit too much on a bit too few operatives, apparently. Yes, they have outriders and fliers who can watch stuff from hiding and afar, but few agents who can safely get close and personal. The cat theme my spin has on RHoD can help with that. Disclaimer, nevertheless: Vilett is not intended to replace Miha; she is rather there to complement her: instead of being a pair f eyes who can charm her way into key locations, Vilett can gather massive amounts of more mundane and simple information relatively fast. How so? It's simple. She's a Cat Hengeyokai. And while, Catfolk are vanishingly rare in the setting, cats, sadly, aren't. She can talk to them. And they can be everywhere.
–Vilett's cover is deeper, perhaps, than Miha's. She poses as a mediocre entertainer (which she is, complete with Bard levels) who came from the lawless little dispenser of henchpeople and contraband, Iira with a merchant caravan who ditched her in Sin Nubar when they realized she is way too prone to sea sickness to be much fun on a ship (which she is). She is clumsy. She is friendly. And she has a good excuse or two tobe perpetually broke which precludes her just leaving the Vale. She's almost as beyond notice as her little eyes and ears and she's been around for a while. All she needs to do is pet cats and listen to them purr before delivering data in bulk, despite being an extreme one hit wonder if exposed. In short,

→Cat Hengeyokai Bard 2 (CR2)

https://i.ibb.co/Jtw74bm/ey-Jra-WQi3.png

The Envoy and the Aide:
–When I played RHoD for the first and only time, my character joined the party as a replacement after Vraath Keep and the Skull Gorge bridge were dealt with. She was a Lawful Stupid Banite agent dropping out of the sky to chase a prophecy and see if it is of any interest to the Black Hand. The party took her "[t]ake me to your leaders" in stride and the party's nominal leader (and ringmaster; it's a long story) was quick to ask her if she was sent by the Red Hand to negotiate. And I was like, hey, that's actually a pretty neat idea. Why does the Hand never try that?
–Here's where these two enter the picture. Before, say, the Big Siege, the only bit the Hand always expected to be hard, they try their luck. A prisoner is released with a message. If it is well-received, a time and place is agreed on and an emissary is sent forth with a small entourage. The goal is not to assassinate anyone. No tricks, no deception – at the surface level, at least. The Envoy explains that the Hand is as aware that the war cannot conclude as is without sensitive losses on both sides; explains that destroying, say, the Ferry was an unfortunate neccessity they resorted to because of Koth's and Ozzy's deaths; points out that the other towns and villages were left mostly intact (because they were turned into bases and staging grounds, but hey); and offers… Something truly weird. The war can end by the evening. The Hand won't fight if it is not fought. And they absolutely don't intend to destroy Brindol. In fact, they'd like to rule it. A bloodless transition. The lords, their families and armed retainers can leave armed, as they please, unmolested; they would only like the craftspeople, merchants and labourer stay for as long as they'd like: someone has to run the economy as they settle in, after all.
–Of course, this is a ruse. The Hand is prepared to uphold its promises, but they need some of the population stay in place… For mass sacrifices to free their draconic Mistress. Not that Brindol accepting the terms is really something they hope will happen. What they really want is to saw discord. To make it look like they can be reasoned with; the lords just don't want to. To have a chance to offer a truce to the Church and the Dyadics, perhaps, to weaken the enemy.
–Now, how do they sell it? And who do they send? Someone draconic, obviously. Not a Wyrmlord, mind: failure is likely, and bloodshed might happen. But someone powerful-looking who can convince the opposition they are ready to invest into the talks and risk someone important. A Greenspwan Zealot (for the Envoy) is a good pick for that, I'd say. With a single level of Marshal added, for more Bluffing power (against PCs) and Diplomacy capabilities (for playing with the minds of good guy NPCs), one of those could be brought to be on par in terms of CR with a War Adept, namely the Aide, a real asset risked. I'd make the latter (only apparently a subordinate, and really more a partner-in-crime to the former) one of the Spellscales. Draconic. Distinctive. Charismatic. With tricks as needed. There!

→Greenspawn Zealot Marshal 1 (CR6)
→Spellscale Sorcerer 6 (CR6)

https://i.ibb.co/bzSdzwr/ey-Jra-WQi2.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/5cR5yB9/eyJraWQi.png

Note the Big Stick in the Envoy's hand, which I believe is a Warmace (make sure to spend a feat).

Finally, a demented idea:

Siege Engine Person:
–Remember how I subtracted two Hill Giants from the original count? This is why. I found the idea of a big guy with a big Greathammer, complete with a Crystal of Lesser Fire Assault for spectacular sparks, wearing heavy armour and a Dire Wolf's head for a helmet trying to break down the main gate (Mountain Hammer!) as the Hand ominously chants his name in the backgorund funny. I'd name him… Graand.

→Hill Giant Warblade 1 (CR 8)

https://i.ibb.co/KbMX1M8/Capture-Gr.png

A Medium Catfolk added for scale. Yes, I know, Hill Giants are disappointingly short with their ~10 ft.

VII. And then there's the other side, right?

[To be added.]

VIII. Preferably including people with actual levels in stuff, maybe? (Dramatis Personae, part 2: Unique Allies)

[To be added.]

IX. Various tactical considerations are overdue.

[To be added.]

CHANGELOG:
2023/09/19: added explicative footnotes to the Red Hand operatives section;
2023/09/20: added some Wyrmlords and companions stuff;
2023/09/22: added more info on racial/demographical composition of the setting;
2023/09/22: added new unique antagonists, plus a few thoughts on the previously missing official ones, except the Main Boss and his Main Boss;
2023/10/02: added in three groups of monstrous Red operatives I initially didn't because I dodn't change a thing about them;

TO BE CONTINUED