Marvel Multiverse RPG [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Quertus

2022-04-20, 07:05 PM

Don't own it (yet?), but from what I can see... eh, not my cup of tea.

So, let's look at... Spiderman. What can Spiderman do?

He's a student / journalist / photographer who gained super powers in a freak accident. He's really strong, really agile, has danger sense, can cling to walls, and can shoot webs for a wide variety of effects (entangle, damage, movement ("web swinging"), etc)).

Sound like Spiderman?

How does Marvel Multiverse RPG handle Spiderman?

(Going from memory and guesswork here, this is probably "internet numbers" half wrong...)

Well, he's got a Level, which determines how high his stats can be, and how many powers he has. And I don't think you can trade points around there. I think Spiderman is level 10 (system has levels 1-25). Oh, and "level" is called "Rank".

Uh, I *think* people cap at "4" for their stats (kinda like d20 stat of 18 is a +4. Coincidence? I think not!).

He's got to pick an Archetype, which can boost his stat cap based on his level - on 2 of his stats. So +5 - excuse me, "5" - at 1st level, up to... maybe 15 or so at level - excuse me, "Rank" - 25. IIRC, it was 9 at level Rank 20. So a "Bruiser" might get a higher cap on strength Might and Con Resiliance, while a "Striker" probably gets Might and Agility. A "Genius" gets Vigilance and Logic.

Your Archetype determines your HP (Health) and Mana (Focus) and melee and ranged damage by level. Bruisers get a lot of Health and melee damage, Geniuses get a lot of Focus and ranged damage. Polymath is generally rather balanced.

Then your stats get multiplied by your rank to add to things, or used for things (like Initiative).

So is Spiderman a Bruiser? A Genius? a Polymath? I'm not really sure. He's got super Strength and Agility, so you'd expect... none of those, actually (Polymath can pick any 2, so maybe Polymath?). Except Super Strength is a super power, so maybe he's a Genius with Super Strength?

Oh, right, powers. So, powers come in sets, and you are gently advised to only pick power sets that match your background (a really soft rule, just explain why your Mage is a Cyborg, and you're golden) (Yes, you pick a Background, like "Criminal" or "Mage" or "Student" or "Mutant" or "Deity". And it does... stuff. Maybe.). And picking a Set is important - it provides (generally), among other things, a +6 stat cap to 2 of your stats! So your power set is even better than your Archetype in that regard! A level 1 Bruiser caps at 5 Might, but a Level 1 Power Armor Genius caps at 10 Might (a level 1 Power Armor Bruiser caps at 11 Might).

But the powers have prerequisites, and you only get so many powers based on your Rank. It's all drawn out in nice little flow charts. Most of which look like this:

Power 1
Power 2a -> Power 2b -> Power 2c -> Power 2d
Power 3
Power 4
Power 5a -> Power5b -> Power 5c -> Power 5d

And *maybe* Power 6d will happen to *also* require Power 4. But it's pretty straightforward.

Oh, and speaking of: one of the prerequisites is Rank. And Rank prerequisites always seem to be evenly divisible by 5. So, AFAICT, this system actually has 6 levels: 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25. The rest are just fluff to make it feel like you're advancing.

So, if it's an obvious line, it's probably actually

Power 2a (level 5) -> Power 2b (level 10) -> Power 2c (level 15) -> Power 2d (level 20)

Anyway, Spiderman probably has to take whatever Power Set give him Super Strength? So, Cybornetics? Well, no. Powers aren't tied to sets 1:1. A power can appear in multiple sets. And some powers exist outside sets. Which matters, because your Rank determines how many Sets you can have (and, IIRC, even at level 25, that's only 3. Ouch.).

So Spiderman, at level 10, gets... who knows? 6? 8? some small number of powers, in 1 or 2 Sets. They probably look something like

Setless
Super Strength 1 -> Super Strength 2

Spider Powers
Wall Crawling
Web Slinging 1 -> Web Slinging 2
Danger Sense 1 -> Danger Sense 2

Because, that's right, to build Spiderman, they had to create a "Spider Powers" set.

Which means that, to create your own heroes, what are the odds that the existing power sets will actually make any sense to create those heroes?

Thus, not my cup of tea.

And, if you read a comic, and see that Spiderman uses his webs to blind someone, or stick his camera in place, or block an alleyway, or create web armor or web gliders, and that's *not* one of the very few powers in the "Spider Powers" set? Then AFAICT you're just out of luck. Never mind if you want your *own* Spider-themed hero to have Poison, or Matter Creation, or Growth/Shrinking, or Summoning, or Mind Control (limited to Spiders), or some other power Spiderman *doesn't* have. You just can't.

Thus, not my cup of tea.

Also, most of the powers are just numbers. Like Energy Blast: Deal xd6 Ranged Damage (or something like that. I think.). Or Camouflage (Invisibility?): gain Advantage on Stealth, opponent has Disadvantage on Perception. Or Heightened Senses: gain Advantage on Perception, opponent has Disadvantage on Stealth.

Thus, not my cup of tea.

Can I get heat-seeking missiles that follow you for a number of rounds, unless you trick them, or phase through a wall or something (or, you know, they actually incongruously hit)? Can I get Flight that doesn't cost mana (I'm an air elemental / beholder / sentient balloon), or Armor that does ("I can't hold this form forever")? Does flight via Wings vs Jet Pack vs Air Manipulation vs Electromagnitism vs realizing that location is an illusion vs whatever phlebotinum Superman uses make any difference (like, say, which ones you can use in outer space, or when your Oxygen was secretly replaced with Folger's Crystals)? Not that I can tell.

Thus, not my cup of tea.

Anyway, that's what I gathered from the very little time I tried to skim through the book (mostly character creation). I think it's too focused on "balance", and too bounded in all the wrong places, for my taste. YMMV.

Level 10 Mutant (Student) Genius
Might 0(8)
Agility 6
Resiliance 4
Vigilance 4(12)
Ego 2
Logic 4

80 Health, 100 Focus, 5 Karma, 612 Initiative (probably higher with Danger Sense), Move 31'
2d6+18 Fight Damage, 2d6+18 Ranged Damage

Setless
Super Strength 1 -> Super Strength 2 (+8 Strength?)

Spider Powers (+6 max Agility & Vigilance?)
Wall Crawling
Web Slinging 1 -> Web Slinging 2
Danger Sense 1 -> Danger Sense 2 (+8 Vigilance?)

(yeah, I have no clue what these powers do, I already forgot half what I read skimmed)

Rater202

2022-04-20, 07:18 PM

Quertus

2022-04-20, 07:41 PM

Havng a distinct "Spider-Powers" power set makes sense.

Peter, Miles, Spider-Gwen, Jessica, Cindy, and Anya, all have variations of the same general set of powers. And that's not counting the various clones of spider-man and the spider-flu and th Symbiotes.

Like, "Spider-Totem" is a variation of superhuman in the greater marvel multiverse.

Grouping a common package of powers together just makes sense for simulation purposes.

I imagine that if "Wolverine" isn't in th playtest document as a power set that it will be in the final game for much the same reason. There are dozens of mutants with the power of "high-speed healing factor, claws, and animal-like senses/instincts/features."

Having a hard limit on powers does seem to be a bit of a problem. Unless powers are drastically unbalanced it means that some canon characters can't be recreated in the system.

Unless the Rank system scales infinitely, that is.

I think "Claws" is its own power set, but "Healing Factor" and "Senses" are part of the general, set-less powers. :smallamused: (It'll be funny if it's not a Set tied to the "Mutant" background.)

And "Adamantium Bones" might just be considered "Armor", which is also a general power. (Although, really, "you can't break my bones" is a really dumb power, and emulating it as Damage Reduction is even dumber).

I think Thor was level 20? I think level 25 is really meant to be the cap.

I'm just concerned that this is WoD Mage, but worse. In (my experience with) WoD Mage, never mind what the book said, you could only do with a Sphere what the GM envisioned that Sphere doing. If they thought that Telekinesis moved things and therefore should be Correspondence, you couldn't do it with Forces, regardless of how much sense it made. :smallannoyed:

I fear the same thing here, only worse you can only do with a given power set what one particular set of people thought of. If they didn't think of spiders as poisonous, if they didn't think of Vampires as clinging to walls, if they didn't think of Deities as not needing to breathe, then you can't build one with such powers. Period. :smallfrown: And I think that's bad design for a Supers game.

But I only just barely skimmed a few pages. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Rater202

2022-04-20, 07:48 PM

In the grand scheme of things, Thor isn't even a drop in the bucket. Even as the All-Father, he's just a spec in a Celestial's eye.

...Unless we're talking bout Rune King Thor.

But like: Omega LEvel mutants.

By definition, they have an infinite growth curve. Exact specifications vary, but any given Omega LEvel mutant's powers will never stop getting stronger or stop developing new applications. You keep doing the work you'll keep getting benefits.

It's not 100% strictly necessary from a mechanical standpoint because in practice any given Omega LEvel mutant will probably die from natural causes well before they hit god-tier unless their specific power already starts out strong, but it breaks my emersion in a game when the mechanics don't support the fluff.

Tawmis

2022-04-20, 09:46 PM

D616 system? What’s the rundown on this? Can someone explain the basics? I’m always looking for a good super rpg, ascendant was just a bit too rules dense for my usual group and prowlers & paragons is just a bit too rules light for my taste. Not a huge fan of M&M and Hero just doesn’t click. As you can see, i’m very picky

It's 3 six sided dice.
The "core" Marvel Universe is known as 616.
Other realities having other numbers.
So rolling a 616 is epic.

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-21, 03:16 AM

So it's going to be difficult to create nonhumanoid characters? Like, say, a spiderdroid on the run from it's creators. Because I'm 60% certain there will be an assumption everybody has hands.

Also, question for when people can read the book, is there going to be a mechanic for pulling a one time power or gadget out of your arse, like M&M's Extra Effort can do? Because my fugitive robot characters need internal gadgets they lack the budget to keep in working order.

Rater202

2022-04-21, 10:38 AM

You know, in the source material it's a running trend that having more than one source of power makes the powers stronger than they should be. 2+3 coming out to seven instead of five, for example.

Especially spider powers and mutant biology. They go together like chocolate and peanut butter.

I wonder how the game would represent something like that?

EggKookoo

2022-04-21, 01:27 PM

Ok, got the book. First pass.

It's not simple. About 5e complex.

Six Ability Scores, essentially the same as D&D but with Marvel-ized names. Literally: Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, Logic.

Ability scores are not scaled 3-18+ like D&D. You get points to spend based on the starting Rank (level) of the PC. You can have 0, or even negative. Normal humans range from -4 to 4. A rank 5 PC gets 18 points to spread. A Rank 25 PC has 31. You start with 0 in each Ability and add the points 1-for-1. If you bring an ability below 0 (to a min of -4) you get those points back to spend on other abilities. Your Rank puts a cap on how high any of your Ability Scores can be, which can be overridden by your Archetype and certain powers.

Archetypes are classes. Blaster, Bruiser, Genius, Polymath, Protector, Striker.

Most Archetypes are pretty self-explanatory. A Genius is someone that uses their intelligence as a power, rather than just being really smart. So Reed Richards is a Genius because in the field he's primarily acting as the big brain, with his stretching powers more or less as support. Tony Stark, despite being brilliant, is not a Genius. He uses his intelligence to make his suit and related powers, but in combat, tactically, he flies around and PEWPEWPEWs things. Polymath is kind of the "not sure which Archetype to pick, jack-of-all-trades" thing. Many popular Marvel heroes are Polymaths (Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America, although I might disagree with that last one).

Your Archetype provides bonuses to some of your Ability Scores. Your Rank modifies that.

Powers come in Powersets. You can pick X powers from Y different Powersets, based on Rank. Low-Rank PCs have access to only one powerset. There are also Utility Powers that exist outside any Powerset, and you can pick from these without regard to your Powerset limit (but you are still limited by the number of actual Powers you can have).

Powers often have other Powers as prerequisites.

If you have access to a second Powerset but refrain from picking a power from that Powerset, you get an extra Power from your first Powerset. Basically for every available-but-unused Powerset you have, you can pick one extra Power from one of your used Powersets.

There is a metric ton of Powers, with more promised coming (this is just a preview of the final game).

The d616 system isn't quite like I described, but pretty close. You roll 3d6, with one die specified as a special one, typically by color although the final product will come with branded Marvel dice. If you get a 1 on the special die and anything other than two 1s for the other dice, you get a "fantastic" result, which is kind of like a critical but it encompasses more than that. If you roll all three 1s, you get a botched roll, which is at least an automatic failure.

You succeed if the total of your dice roll meets or beats/exceeds the Target Number (TN). If you have a fantastic success, count the special 1 as a 6 for this calculation. If you botched, you fail regardless of the roll -- you effectively got a 3. If your fantastic result hits, something extra happens which depends on what it was you were trying to do. Many Powers have notes for fantastic successes (double damage for some attack Powers, or extra attacks, and so on).

For fantastic failures, there are no set effects. The PC's player is encouraged to suggest something that the GM approves. If nothing comes to mind, the PC gains a bonus on the next roll known as an edge.

Edge is the game's version of 5e Advantage. If you have an edge, you can reroll one of the d6s on a roll. You could try to reroll the special die in the hopes of hitting a 1 and getting a fantastic result, or reroll one of the other dice just to get a high number. Disadvantage is just the reverse, and is called trouble. If you're in trouble, the GM will select one of your three d6s to re-roll.

A character's Armor Class has the clumsy name of Challenging TN, which scales by Rank and does not seem to be modified by Archetype.

Edit: Nope. Each Ability has a Defense value, and that's used as a TN based on the type of attack. Most physical attacks use your Agility Defense as TN (as you're trying to get out of the way == armor is represented as damage reduction). For mental attacks, you use your Vigilance Defense as TN. Other rolls may use other Abilities but Agility and Vigilance are the most common in most combat situations.

Damage is static (no damage dice) and is based on your Ability scores, modified by Archetype/Rank and then further split by melee and ranged (whew!).

Edit: I'm wrong here. There are damage dice, mostly 3d6 + some large mod. This allows for fantastic damage, which can cause knockback.

Health (HP) is also static and set by Archetype/Rank.

There is a concentration-like mechanic called Focus. Some Powers require Focus, others don't require it but you get a buff if you use it. Focus is a resource that gets spent, and the amount you spend adds to the effectiveness of the Power or feature using it.

Karma is a a resource you can spend to give yourself an edge on a roll (one point at a time).

You recover Health just by waiting, X points per hour, faster if you're sleeping.

There's nothing like a Saving Throw that I can see.

There's a lot more. Lots of little stuff. What D&D calls Feats are called Traits, and 3e-like every PC gets them (slowly) as they level. Origin is mostly a Background-like element that provides one or more Traits, and you pick a Profession which also will provide Traits. Unsurprisingly, Traits go a long way toward rounding out your PC.

NPCs seem to be built just like PCs.

I'll go through another pass later on and fill in more details as I find them.

Rater202

2022-04-21, 03:19 PM

Out of curiosity, what would you say is the most "interesting" or "out there" power set

EggKookoo

2022-04-21, 03:48 PM

They're mostly straightforward, things you see them do in the movies. Like the old DC Heroes game, a Power is really any specific action or feature of your hero. So even stuff like shooting your gun really quickly is presented as a Power, alongside stuff like turning your body to flame or flying.

Some of the quirkier ones:

Rubberneck (Powerset: Plasticity)
You can move your head away from your body, up to your reach, to establish a line of sight to the target.

Slow-Motion Shoot Dodge (Powerset: Firearms)
You dive sideways, guns blazing, hanging in midair for a split second (two attacks against one enemy or one attack each against two, and you're hard to hit until you move next, at which point you instantly fall prone).

Wisecracker (Utility Power)
Basically vicious mockery (well, no, no damage but causes Trouble for the target), but literally just by being a wiseass.

They do emphasize that there are many more Powers coming in the final product.

The Traits are more interesting. Fresh Eyes, Debate Champ, Prescription Pad.

Rater202

2022-04-21, 04:19 PM

Wisecracker (Utility Power)
Basically vicious mockery (well, no, no damage but causes Trouble for the target), but literally just by being a wiseass.

This is the most useful power.

Like, seriously, never underestimate the value of a well-timed quip or dad joke.

From Spider-Man, Renew Your Vows(essentially, a timeline where OMD never happened but PEter had to go into hiding to protect himself and his and MJ's daughter from a man who killed most of the heroes and stole their powers: This man, Regent, really wanted Spider-Sense.)

Spider-Man has agreed to let the Regent take his powers, if he spares Annie-May and takes care of her. Make sure she eats her vegetables, pays her allowance, that kind of thing.

Annie's allowance is 75 cents.

Regents: "That's rather low."
Peter: "Well, you know... 'How does Spider-Man pay his kid's allowance? With Spider-Cents.'"

Regent laughed, and Peter knocked him out cold while his guard was down, thus ending his reign of terror.

Lord Raziere

2022-04-21, 04:26 PM

This is the most useful power.

Like, seriously, never underestimate the value of a well-timed quip or dad joke.

From Spider-Man, Renew Your Vows(essentially, a timeline where OMD never happened but PEter had to go into hiding to protect himself and his and MJ's daughter from a man who killed most of the heroes and stole their powers: This man, Regent, really wanted Spider-Sense.)

Spider-Man has agreed to let the Regent take his powers, if he spares Annie-May and takes care of her. Make sure she eats her vegetables, pays her allowance, that kind of thing.

Annie's allowance is 75 cents.

Regents: "That's rather low."
Peter: "Well, you know... 'How does Spider-Man pay his kid's allowance? With Spider-Cents.'"

Regent laughed, and Peter knocked him out cold while his guard was down, thus ending his reign of terror.

the real great thing is that in any superhero system worth their salt, you could make this mechanically work. like that is not even a hard thing to do I think, its just a question of how you want to mechanically represent it which in M&M3e alone, I think there might be multiple ways to do so. so this rpg making it have a use is on point.

EggKookoo

2022-04-21, 04:31 PM

It's even a Reaction power, triggered whenever you succeed on an attack against an enemy, or the enemy fails an attempted attack on you. Depending on how the GM rules it, an intimidation check (that fails) could count.

And I was wrong. I does cause damage -- to the target's Focus rather than Health.

Decent bit of flavor there.

Rater202

2022-04-21, 04:51 PM

Regarding Captain America being a Polymath: If Polymaths are the "jack of all trades, master of none" types then yeah, that scans.

The MCU makes him out to be somekind of superhuman athlete, but in the comics the Serum only gives him 3 actual super powers: Biological perfection, Eternal Youth, and a Superhuman MEtabolism that keeps his body in perfect orking condition no matter what(and his eternal youth might be a side effect of one or both of the others.)

Essentially, he has no flaws on gnetic level, the structure of every cell and tissue is perfect, and everything is pu together perfectly giving him the best possible version of very inherent skill humans have, and he doesn't have to work for it.

so... He doesn't have Superhuman strength, he's just as strong as a normal, unenhanced human could ever possibly be. And as tough, as fast, as smart, and so on and so forth.

Spider-Man and Thor are the same: They have distinctive powers, but a good chunk of their repertoire is that they just have all-around better physiology than a normal human.

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-21, 05:02 PM

and a Superhuman MEtabolism that keeps his body in perfect orking condition no matter what

I mean, you kind of can't be in perfect orking condition unless you're at least eight foot tall and super strong.

'ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we goooooo

JNAProductions

2022-04-21, 05:07 PM

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7BsAAOSwkQVgpBU9/s-l300.jpg

Rater202

2022-04-21, 05:13 PM

I mean, you kind of can't be in perfect orking condition unless you're at least eight foot tall and super strong.

'ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we goooooo
That is a typo and you know it.

Although I will admit that the Hulk is usually about eight foot tall and is the strongest and greenest there is.

Quertus

2022-04-21, 05:16 PM

I mean, you kind of can't be in perfect orking condition unless you're at least eight foot tall and super strong.

'ere we go, 'ere we go, 'ere we goooooo

And scream "Waaaaagh!" when you're not looking for more dakka. :smallamused:

Can I build that in Marvel Multiverse RPG?

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-21, 05:39 PM

That is a typo and you know it.

My knowledge of Marvel is limited enough that they could have replaced Steve Rogers with an ork two years ago and I wouldn't know it.

Like, I'm not even sure who Spider-Man is shagging at the moment. Is it Mary Jane, or did they like bring Gwen Stacy back from the dead?

Rater202

2022-04-21, 05:42 PM

My knowledge of Marvel is limited enough that they could have replaced Steve Rogers with an ork two years ago and I wouldn't know it.

Like, I'm not even sure who Spider-Man is shagging at the moment. Is it Mary Jane, or did they like bring Gwen Stacy back from the dead?

MJ.

Gwen is still dead, but alternate universe Gwen Stacy is alive and... Might also be shagging MJ? But a Different MJ.

...Who was recently Carnage.

Spider-Gwen's universe is weird and she doesn't always have the most consistent characterization.

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-21, 05:49 PM

TIL that everybody in the Marvel Multiverse is shagging Mary Jane Watson. I hope the new RPG properly reflects this.

EggKookoo

2022-04-21, 07:00 PM

Regarding Captain America being a Polymath: If Polymaths are the "jack of all trades, master of none" types then yeah, that scans.

Yeah, I guess it comes down to where that line is. For the most part the Archetypes seem to revolve around the character's primary tactical function. Reed is a Genius because he makes direct use of his smarts in a fight. His stretching is just more of a survival trick or a utility. Tony is a Polymath despite being in the same intellectual class as Reed, because his intelligence is more of a support function for his main role of a tankmage.

Daredevil is a Striker. I think Wolverine is a Striker. Strikers are primarily about direct melee combat. Carol Danvers is a Blaster (ranged combat). Spider-Man is a Polymath. I think Cap could go either way.

Rater202

2022-04-21, 07:14 PM

Carol being a blaster is weird. She has enhanced physiology on a level comparable to Thor and some seriously versatile energy powers.

Like, she can put some of her energy in you and you'll temporarily become immortal.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 01:03 AM

So how much do the archetypes matter? Like, if Tony Stark was changed into a Genius, how much would actually change?

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 05:55 AM

So how much do the archetypes matter? Like, if Tony Stark was changed into a Genius, how much would actually change?

Archetypes dictate a few things.

Your Ability Scores are capped at 4, except for two that are determined by your AT. In the case of a Genius, those are Vigilance and Logic (Wisdom and Intelligence in D&D land). These Abilities aren't open-ended but have a cap that increases with Rank. A Polymath doesn't specify which Abilities but lets you pick any two.

You get bonuses to Ability rolls, which are determined by your AT and Rank.

AT also dictates your defenses. Earlier in this thread I said a characters armor class is something called a Challenging TN. I got that wrong, and I'll go edit my previous post. How it works is, you effectively have six different "armor class" values, one for each Ability. So in a way this game combines 5e's approach to saving throws with armor class. Everything that affects your character falls into one of those six categories, and uses the defense value for that Ability. A physical attack, for example, would ping off your Agility Defense. You'd use your Might Defense as the TN (DC) for strength-based stuff like breaking free of a grapple. Resilience Defense is for being poisoned and the like, and so on for the other Abilities. These values are all set by your AT and then modified by Rank.

Your have two damage values, one for "fight" damage (which seems to mean melee) and one for "ranged" damage. The base values for these are the same regardless of the method or Power used, and are also set by your AT and Rank.

The base values for Health and Focus are set by AT and Rank. You add Resilience * Rank to Health and Vigilance * Rank to Focus, and those are kind of soft-limited by Rank, so there's some impact there.

There do not seem to be any Powerset or Power restrictions based on AT.

So to answer the question, for Tony to be recast as a Genius:

A Genius has Vigilance and Logic as raised Ability caps (to 8 at Iron Man's Rank of 15). A Polymath can pick any two, and Tony has Agility and Logic. So his base Agility and Vigilance scores (8 and 2) would swap, or you'd want to rebuild him from the ground up to rebalance him.
At his Rank (15), both ATs have the same Might and Agility bonuses and defenses (+9 and 20). However, he would see a drop in effective Agility due to the new cap arrangement.
Resilience bonus is the same (+9) but he would see a reduction in Resilience defense (20 down to 17)
Vigilance bonus goes up (+9 up to +13) but defense stays the same (20). This would go up in the end because of the shift in Ability caps.
Ego likewise gets a bonus boost (+6 to +9) but again defense stays the same (20).
Logic sees a pretty good boost. Bonus increases (+9 to +13) and defense does as well (20 up to 24).
His fight/melee damage drops, from 3d6 + 28 down to 3d6 + 18.
However, his ranged damage remains the same at 3d6 + 28.
His base Health goes from 90 to 60 (120 down to 90 when calculating in Resilience * Rank).
His base Focus stays the same at 90. But if his Vigilance goes up to 8, his adjusted Focus becomes 210.

All in all, it looks like it makes him into a caster that prefers to stay at range.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 06:29 AM

Your Ability Scores are capped at 4, except for two that are determined by your AT. In the case of a Genius, those are Vigilance and Logic (Wisdom and Intelligence in D&D land).

While some of the attribute names are a little forced, I really like Vigilance in place of Wisdom, considering how little "Wisdom" in the D&D sense have in common with the everyday use of the word.

And thanks for the explanation about archetypes. While I don't think I like their approach very much, at least I understand it a little better now. :smalltongue:

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 07:26 AM

And thanks for the explanation about archetypes. While I don't think I like their approach very much, at least I understand it a little better now. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I'm trying to track down the heart of the fun in the system. I think it's there, but I also think the game has some complexity that might not bring much added depth. I need to actually playtest it. I was disappointed to see there's no Superspeed Powerset or fast-running Utility power (yet).

It does have some cool things, though. For example, Opportunity Attacks are nowhere to be seen, but there are two default reaction-based actions everyone can take.

Interpose: If an ally within reach is the target of an attack (that doesn't also target you), you can move to interpose yourself to become the new target (this does not burn your regular movement). The TN for the attack is the lower of your defense or your ally's. Clearly meant for tough, protection-oriented characters to use to protect weaker allies.

Skulk: Basically the reverse -- if you're the target of the attack, you can move behind an ally (that isn't also a target of the same attack) and force the ally to become the new target. I assume this is something you'd coordinate with your beefier, protection-oriented ally first.

I like these. I wonder if I should steal them for my 5e game.

Maybe I'll try making an actual PC this weekend and see how it goes.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 08:23 AM

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 10:24 AM

So, Origins are a background detail, right? But what are they?

Are they like, "Mutant, Inhuman, Gamma Ray exposure, Cyborg, Alien" type power origins or are they more like "what made you decide to be a superhero" type things?

Pretty good guesses. They seem to be "what gave you powers" more than "what made you decide to be a hero."

Alien, God, High Tech, Magical, Mutant, Special Training, Weird Science. This book says more will be available in the finished product, and they will have subtypes.

Each of which grants one or more Traits (feats). Traits are sometimes just flavor, sometimes mechanical.

For example, Alien gives you the Alien Heritage Trait, which in turn may or may not grant special Powers based on the particular alien species you've chosen (i.e. its subtype: Kree, Skrull, etc.).

God gives you God Heritage (I assume will work similarly to Alien Heritage with Asgardian, Olympian, etc. as subtypes), Enhanced Physique (+3 to the cap for Might, Agility, and Resilience, and you are one size larger for carrying capacity calculations), and Worshipped (others see you as an object of worship; no mechanical bonus but certainly useful as roleplay fodder).

And so on...

You also pick a Profession: Criminal, Health Care Worker, Lawyer, Journalist, Investigator, Outsider, Ruler, Scientist, Soldier, Spy, Student, Tycoon. Again, many more are promised in the official end product. I don't know if there will be subtypes but I wouldn't bet against it. These also provide one or more Traits.

I won't go into them all, but here's a sampling:

Criminal gives you Black Market Access (you know where to buy and sell illicit goods; mainly for RP and narrative stuff), Connections: Criminal (mostly RP, but you can make an Ego check to reach out to your connection and ask a question, GM determines TN), and Streetwise (largely overlaps with Black Market Access; you know who to talk to and who to avoid in the criminal world).

Health Care Worker has Clinician (edge/advantage on Logic (medicine) checks made to determine the nature of an injury or illness), First Aid (edge on Logic (medicine) checks made to stop bleeding; "bleeding" is a condition in this game), and Prescription Pad (literally, you can write prescriptions, which I think would mostly fall under roleplaying).

Lawyer provides Dealmaker (edge on Ego or Logic (persuasion) checks when trying to cut a deal), Legal Eagle (edge on Logic checks that involve the law), Public Speaking (edge on Ego (persuasion) checks when trying to influence groups or multiple people at once).

In addition to these Traits, you get one free one to start and then more as you gain Rank.

Not all Traits are bonuses. There's Clueless, where you have trouble (disadvantage) on Vigilance (perception) checks, and enemies have an edge on Agility (steath) checks against you. And Out of Shape means you're considered one size smaller when calculating your carrying capacity. If you have one of these "challenging" Traits, and the Trait becomes relevant for something that happens in the game, the GM is meant to reward you with a Karma point. Karma is the game's version of 5e's Inspiration mechanic, except it's a resource rather than a single-use kind of thing.

Anyway, more reading...

Oh, Origin also puts a soft limit on which Powersets you can choose. If you're Mutant, for example, you don't have access to the Firearms Powerset. You basically have to ask the GM for permission, and you're meant to come up with a justification for why you have Powers from that set. Using Powersets outside your Origin amounts to an optional rule a la multiclassing.

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-22, 10:41 AM

I like the idea of powersets essentially costing a power to open. It makes me wonder if you can take an extra common power at 1st level by not taking any powersets.

How broad is the pool of common powers? Is it just generic stuff like Super Attributes, or is it 'anything that doesn't go under a specific theme'?

It's not looking terrible, but at the same time I'm not seeing much reason to invest in it over something like Aberrant. Although that's also just a personal dislike for classes.

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 11:02 AM

I like the idea of powersets essentially costing a power to open. It makes me wonder if you can take an extra common power at 1st level by not taking any powersets.

There doesn't seem to be a rule concerning that, but I'm still iterating through.

Ok, so, there is this line under the initial character creation instructions:

If a character doesn't use a Powerset, they can pick an extra Power instead.

This is in the context of adding a second Powerset and is expanded on with the stuff about getting an extra Power from an existing set if you have access to a new set but don't use it. Depending on how you interpret it, it could mean that if you decline taking a Power from your initial Powerset, you can choose an extra Utility Power. Which in turn means you could conceivably build a PC entirely out of Utility Powers. I'd be inclined to allow that if I were running a game, unless it became clear that it was a problem.

How broad is the pool of common powers? Is it just generic stuff like Super Attributes, or is it 'anything that doesn't go under a specific theme'?

It's not a huge list. Seems to be a combination of common powers a lot of heroes have and some quirky ones that go well with other sets.

Additional Limb
Camouflage
Environmental Protection
Fastball Special (yes, that's a Power!)
Flight 1
Flight 2 (some Powers have levels like this, basically "fly faster")
Healing Factor
Heightened Senses
Inspiration
Ram
Sturdy
Thermal Vision
Tough
Tracker
Wisecracker

In general, super-attributes are handled via powers. Mighty 1, for example, increases your effective size by 1 for carrying calculations, adds a +5 to non-attack Might checks/rolls, and +4 to fight/melee damage. Mighty goes up to Mighty 4 (size x5 for carry calc, +20 on non-attack Might rolls, melee damage +12), which Thor has, compared to Iron Man with Mighty 2 and Spider-Man with Mighty 1.

It's not looking terrible, but at the same time I'm not seeing much reason to invest in it over something like Aberrant. Although that's also just a personal dislike for classes.

Yeah, I really think there's some fun to be had with this, but it's not an entry-level game by any means. And it definitely needs some hard playtesting passes.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 11:09 AM

Fastball Special (yes, that's a Power!)

I wonder what would happen if someone with super strength but without the Fastball power tried throwing someone else? :smallconfused:

This makes me worried that they've caught the "you need a feat/skill/ability to do something everyone should be able to do" disease.

On a different note, what's the difference between High Tech and Weird Science?

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 11:19 AM

I wonder what would happen if someone with super strength but without the Fastball power tried throwing someone else? :smallconfused:

This makes me worried that they've caught the "you need a feat/skill/ability to do something everyone should be able to do" disease.

If it helps, Fastball Special is a power for the person being thrown, not the thrower. It doesn't allow Colossus to pick up and throw Wolverine. It's a power Wolverine has, so he can be an effective weapon when thrown. That might mitigate it somewhat.

There's a general rule for throwing things (and people). Basically a ranged attack, and both the target and the projectile take damage. Fastball Special adds to the damage done by the throw, but interestingly doesn't mention anything about the throwee not taking damage when hitting the target. I wonder if that's intentional...

On a different note, what's the difference between High Tech and Weird Science?

As described, High Tech is meant to be something super-advanced and beyond the understanding of the normal science world, but reproducible at least by the genius or entity that created it. StarkTech, for example. Weird Science is meant to be more of a one-off event that isn't replicable or even really well-understood by anyone. So, Hulk getting gamma-blasted and getting superpowers instead of cancer (or Spider-Man and the bite, etc.).

I would imagine the Fantastic Four are Weird Science, at least at the time they got their powers. Reed may have come to understand the physics principles later.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 11:19 AM

If the origins have subtypes than I'm very curious as to what they mean when they say "mutant."

Does it refer only to proper X-Gene mutants, or is it going to be a catch-all category for any origin that ivnovles being born as an altered human? Mutants, inhumans, deviants, eternals.

Because there are subcategories of mutant. Even ignoring the power grading system you've got Feral-Geners, changlings, Externals, Neyaphim, cheyaraphim, the Arakill.

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 11:57 AM

Does it refer only to proper X-Gene mutants, or is it going to be a catch-all category for any origin that ivnovles being born as an altered human? Mutants, inhumans, deviants, eternals.

Good question. I don't know how I'd build an Inhuman with the current Origin options. I wonder if they'll group them under Mutant. It's not totally inaccurate -- Inhumans come from the initial Celestial changes that produced Mutants.

I wonder if Atlanteans would also be Mutants, or some variation on Aliens.

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-22, 12:06 PM

But what Origin do I pick if I'm an alien god who's augmented themselves with high technology?

I'm guessing 'slap from the GM', but you never know.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 12:20 PM

Good question. I don't know how I'd build an Inhuman with the current Origin options. I wonder if they'll group them under Mutant. It's not totally inaccurate -- Inhumans come from the initial Celestial changes that produced Mutants.Yes and no.

Techcnailly all humans are the descendants of those species, but while mutants are the intended end result and descended from Homo s sapiens, Inhumans are the result of further artificial tampering by the Kree.

The Kree found the body of a dead Eternal and experimented with combining Eternal physiology and their own genetics with the Neanderthals, which also involved altering the subjects with Terrigen which activated and altered the proto x-genes, creating the inhuman gene.

The intent of thes experiments was a means for the Kree to forcibly evolve themselves into Eternal Like beings, then as shock troops when that failed.

That also failed.

The Kree used to be really crappy by Mad Science standards when it comes to bio-engineering. It took literal millennia of further terrain exposure and selective breeding, often to the pint out outright eugenics, to get anywhere near close to what the Kree originally intended.

I wonder if Atlanteans would also be Mutants, or some variation on Aliens.

"Mutations that bred true and then underwent divergent evolution" is one of the potential origins of Atlanteans. For what it's worth, canonically professor Xavier had to reprogram Cerebro to ignore any Atlantean that wasn't an Atlantean mutant because otherwise the massive number of false positives in the oceans screwed with the readings.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 12:35 PM

"Mutations that bred true and then underwent divergent evolution" is one of the potential origins of Atlanteans. For what it's worth, canonically professor Xavier had to reprogram Cerebro to ignore any Atlantean that wasn't an Atlantean mutant because otherwise the massive number of false positives in the oceans screwed with the readings.

I thought Cerebro specifically tracked X-gene mutants. If it's just any mutation, it seems like he'd get a lot of false positives besides Atlanteans.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 12:40 PM

I thought Cerebro specifically tracked X-gene mutants. If it's just any mutation, it seems like he'd get a lot of false positives besides Atlanteans.

It does.

That's the point.

KillianHawkeye

2022-04-22, 01:29 PM

Oh, Origin also puts a soft limit on which Powersets you can choose. If you're Mutant, for example, you don't have access to the Firearms Powerset. You basically have to ask the GM for permission, and you're meant to come up with a justification for why you have Powers from that set. Using Powersets outside your Origin amounts to an optional rule a la multiclassing.

Somebody with mutant powers needs special permission to shoot a gun really well? :smallconfused:

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 02:22 PM

But what Origin do I pick if I'm an alien god who's augmented themselves with high technology?

Somebody with mutant powers needs special permission to shoot a gun really well? :smallconfused:

Something for both of these. Wolverine has both a Mutant and High Tech Origin. Obviously because he is a mutant, but then had the high tech experience of having his bones bonded with adamantium and the claws installed. The rules (as far as I can find) make no mention of how this works. My guess is the final product will have a section on multiple Origins. I would bet it's pretty simple -- when you gain a new Rank or perhaps a Rank that unlocks a new Powerset, you have the option to pick up a new Origin, as long as it makes some sense in the context of the character.

So we start out with an Alien Origin, then pick up a God Origin, and maybe eventually a High Tech Origin. Probably a decently high-Rank character, but that's what I would expect.

Likewise, we start out with a Mutant Origin, and pick up a Firearms Origin when the character gains expertise in gunstuff.

(Similarly, a number of official heroes have multiple Professions, so I bet that'll be a thing as well.)

Rater202

2022-04-22, 02:26 PM

Wolveirne's claws are a natural part of his skeleton, not something that was installed. as demonstrated when Magneto ripped out all of his adamantium and he still had claws.

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 02:36 PM

Wolveirne's claws are a natural part of his skeleton, not something that was installed. as demonstrated when Magneto ripped out all of his adamantium and he still had claws.

YMMV.

I mean I know the alleged origin stories. The Wolverine I read had claws installed. I knew a writer of suboptimal intelligence was involved when he regenerated completely from a single drop of blood and somehow had memories (and metal claws). From that point on, it's all damage control.

Regardless, he had the later High Tech experience when the adamantium was added.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 02:41 PM

H regenerated completly from a single drop of blood... That spilled on an artifact of cosmic power.

t209

2022-04-22, 02:42 PM

So is there any event involving “Marvel’s ungrateful citizens”, or “decided to start a Civil War for dumb reasons” (part of me want to have Horus Heresy or Badab War for Inhumans…but Kamala as Horus or Huron)?

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 03:50 PM

Rater202

2022-04-22, 03:59 PM

I suppose I shouldn't judge until I've played (or at least read) the game, but I don't really see any upside to handling powers like this, instead of just building the powers based on their effects, as in M&M and similar games. This seems like some sort of pseudo class system, without the upsides of an actual class system (but again, I admit I don't know anywhere near enough to properly judge anything :smalltongue:).
Somepoeple prefer having defined powers that they can pick from instead of having to design every ability they have from scratch.

This might just be my experience, but I find that in games where you have to make your own powers that the mechanics for them tend to be... Suboptimal.

People say it encourages creativity but in my experience, it's always punishing difficult to craft the power you want from the pieces they give you unless you go for something cookie-cutter.

A stream of mutant bees from my hand should not be statistically identical to heat vision.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 04:06 PM

Somepoeple prefer having defined powers that they can pick from instead of having to design every ability they have from scratch.

This might just be my experience, but I find that in games where you have to make your own powers that the mechanics for them tend to be... Suboptimal.

People say it encourages creativity but in my experience, it's always punishing difficult to craft the power you want from the pieces they give you unless you go for something cookie-cutter.

A stream of mutant bees from my hand should not be statistically identical to heat vision.

True, but a system where building your own powers is possible, you can have both, since they usually include some pre-made powers (or even power sets) to choose from. That way, the system can appeal to both people who want to tinker with their bonkers powers for hours and the people who just want to play Wolverine with an extra claw or something.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 04:22 PM

True, but a system where building your own powers is possible, you can have both, since they usually include some pre-made powers (or even power sets) to choose from. That way, the system can appeal to both people who want to tinker with their bonkers powers for hours and the people who just want to play Wolverine with an extra claw or something.

Thing is? If you have existing mechanics for creating and defining powers from a menu of effects and values, you have to use that to make a new power.

Let's say I'm a GM and I've decided to use Itsy-Bitsy as an antagonist but the game doesn't have write-up for her.

It shouldn't be that hard to fake one up, just look at the write-ups for Spider-Man and Deadpool(or if he doesn't have one, Wolverine) to figure out the best way to represent her abilities. Mostly the same powers as Spider-Man, but buff up the strength a bit, tack on whatever is used to represent regeneration at the appropriate level, and that extra limbs power...

But then I need to figure out how to represent her acid spit. If there's not an appropriate power or mechanic to represent it, I have to make one up.

Under the system as presented... I can just do that.

Under a power builder system however, I'd have to go over the tables and so on to figure out what the best means of representing it is.

Sometimes simplicity

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 04:31 PM

Thing is? If you have existing mechanics for creating and defining powers from a menu of effects and values, you have to use that to make a new power.

Let's say I'm a GM and I've decided to use Itsy-Bitsy as an antagonist but the game doesn't have write-up for her.

It shouldn't be that hard to fake one up, just look at the write-ups for Spider-Man and Deadpool(or if he doesn't have one, Wolverine) to figure out the best way to represent her abilities. Mostly the same powers as Spider-Man, but buff up the strength a bit, tack on whatever is used to represent regeneration at the appropriate level, and that extra limbs power...

But then I need to figure out how to represent her acid spit. If there's not an appropriate power or mechanic to represent it, I have to make one up.

Under the system as presented... I can just do that.

Under a power builder system however, I'd have to go over the tables and so on to figure out what the best means of representing it is.

Sometimes simplicity

Right, but what's so much harder about doing the same thing with a more modular power system? This hypothetical system could still have write-ups for existing characters to base it on. If anything, it would be easier to make the proper adjustments.

Let's say we want to make a Spider-Man with that fancy armor Tony Stark made him. In something like M&M, we could just add all the extra abilities on top of his existing ones, without changing anything. In the Marvel Multiverse (Is there an established abbreviation yet? MMRPG, maybe?) it sounds like we'd basically have to remake him with a different origin added.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 04:43 PM

Right, but what's so much harder about doing the same thing with a more modular power system?.

If the modular system doesn't have the components for it(or it does, but it would just be a generic ranged attack) then t's literally impossible to do so.

The more simple the power system is, the easier it is to make custom powers and plug them in. If the rules in the modular system says "we didn't account for that" then you're kind of screwed.

A modular system that accounts for every possibility someone might want, on the other hand, would by necessity be so complex as to be unusable.

And the iron-Spider Suit is literally just Armor and three extra limbs. From what I've seen it would be as simple as letting Spider-Man level up a few ranks. Even the version inf the MCU doesn't really give him anything that can't be easily abstracted other than one gadget.

Slipjig

2022-04-22, 04:51 PM

I'm just concerned that this is WoD Mage, but worse. In (my experience with) WoD Mage, never mind what the book said, you could only do with a Sphere what the GM envisioned that Sphere doing. If they thought that Telekinesis moved things and therefore should be Correspondence, you couldn't do it with Forces, regardless of how much sense it made. :smallannoyed:

Your storyteller was just straight-up wrong. The mage core rulebook was very clear that you could achieve functionally identical effects through using different combinations of spheres, so long as you explained how you were incorporating them. The example in the book was a Mage transforming herself into a tiger using either Life and Spirit magic or, IIRC, some combination of Matter, Forces, and Prime.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 04:58 PM

If the modular system doesn't have the components for it(or it does, but it would just be a generic ranged attack) then t's literally impossible to do so.

How is that different from a less modular system that just doesn't have the power you're looking for? Yes, no system can account for every single possibility, but a system with more pieces that can be combined in different ways can account for more possibilities than one with less.

The more simple the power system is, the easier it is to make custom powers and plug them in. If the rules in the modular system says "we didn't account for that" then you're kind of screwed.

Again, how is that different from a system with ready-made powers that doesn't have one you're looking for?

A modular system that accounts for every possibility someone might want, on the other hand, would by necessity be so complex as to be unusable.

Every single possibility, sure. But a system can account for a lot of them without being very complex (I'm mostly familiar with M&M, but I understand there are others that work equally well or possibly better in that regard).

And the iron-Spider Suit is literally just Armor and three extra limbs. From what I've seen it would be as simple as letting Spider-Man level up a few ranks. Even the version inf the MCU doesn't really give him anything that can't be easily abstracted other than one gadget.

Sure, it might've been a bad example, but I maintain that a system that can add new powers without rebuilding the core of the character seems better than one that can't. (Still with the reservation that I don't know much about MMRPG).

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 05:02 PM

Let's say we want to make a Spider-Man with that fancy armor Tony Stark made him. In something like M&M, we could just add all the extra abilities on top of his existing ones, without changing anything. In the Marvel Multiverse (Is there an established abbreviation yet? MMRPG, maybe?) it sounds like we'd basically have to remake him with a different origin added.

The system does have the capacity for one-off "magic items" that you can add to a PC without requiring a rebuild or tacking on a new origin. Essentially, you add Powers to the item, then the character wears/wields the item and has access to those Powers through it. Cap's shield and Mjolnir work this way. However, they didn't have time to flesh out all the details in the preview book.

I'd imagine Stark's Spider-Armor would be something similar. This might also be a way to do the Mutant who happens to have a really cool weapon, like Magick?

Rater202

2022-04-22, 05:25 PM

How is that different from a less modular system that just doesn't have the power you're looking for? Yes, no system can account for every single possibility, but a system with more pieces that can be combined in different ways can account for more possibilities than one with less.

Mor pieces, more complexity.

If a complex system can't do what you want, then you're kind of screed becuase anything you jurry rig together has to fit into that complex system.

A simple "here are the powers, plug and play" system is less complex. There you just have to look at the existing powers as an example of what may or may not be too powerful or too weak and adjust your plug and play poer accordingly.

A complex mechanic for designing your wn powers, meanwhile, doens't just let you make a plug and play power.

Using the acid spit example, that's pretty short-ranged attack. Pretty much only used from point-blank range. If the power creation system has a minimum length for projectiles or puts heavy penalties on point-blank projectile powers, that the whole thing is a non-starter

Meanwhile, with a sysmtem like this, from what's been shared, it seemed like it would just be simple enough to throw together "yeah, it does X amount of damage,counts as this kind of attack, and if you fail to defend against it it melts any normal clothes you might be wearing" and then toss it somewhere in the Spider-Powers tree.

Which, again, you can only do in a system with simple plug and play powers.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 05:58 PM

Using the acid spit example, that's pretty short-ranged attack. Pretty much only used from point-blank range. If the power creation system has a minimum length for projectiles or puts heavy penalties on point-blank projectile powers, that the whole thing is a non-starter

Meanwhile, with a sysmtem like this, from what's been shared, it seemed like it would just be simple enough to throw together "yeah, it does X amount of damage,counts as this kind of attack, and if you fail to defend against it it melts any normal clothes you might be wearing" and then toss it somewhere in the Spider-Powers tree.

How is that any different from creating that power in Mutant & Masterminds (or a similar system), except for the fact that the damage, type of effect, possible rider effects, etc. are actual specific pieces instead of something you have to come up with on your own?

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-22, 06:02 PM

Eh, owning HERO (6e, slightly simplified rulebook), M&M, and Wild Talents I can say that the main issue is with the time to create the powers. You could go through and create 200 pre-existing powers if you wanted, and I'll probably have to if I ever decide to run HERO (although they'll be spells in a fantasy setting), but it'll take a long time.

It would definitely be very useful though.

Honestly though, if I wanted to run a supers game with either DIY powers or a preset list I'd likely just run Fate. Stunts and Aspects work well for modelling powers, and Venture City includes a pretty decent set of 'powers as stunts' rules with a good number of premade powers.

Really, the main selling point of this game is that 'this game let's you play Marvel and works a bit like D&D', which is a much easier sell to most people than 'let's play a supers story in Fate'. It's probably also why they do powers they way they do, we know how to build whatever we want in WT, M&M or HERO, but your average D&D player likely just wants to look at the list and pick what sounds good

You'll never be able to buy 'suppress nuclear fusion' and load it up with enough extras to turn off the sun in MMRPG. But most people interested probably don't want to anyway.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 06:07 PM

How is that any different from creating that power in Mutant & Masterminds (or a similar system), except for the fact that the damage, type of effect, possible rider effects, etc. are actual specific pieces instead of something you have to come up with on your own?

Okay, I have this thing where things can seem really obvious to me but then when I say them it isn't clear to other people. I'm going to try one more time, and if I'm still not clear I'm going to drop it.

Having actual specific pieces means you have to use actual specific pieces.

If I can't make the specific pieces fit together in a way that felt right for what I was trying to make, then that's it. I cannot use that power in that game.

In a game with plug-and-play powers, however, where there are no specific pieces, just general guidelines, then I can just make the power I want and it will fit in.

That has always been my experience, that simpler plug and play systems are more homebrew friendly than complex customization systems.

JNAProductions

2022-04-22, 06:19 PM

Okay, I have this thing where things can seem really obvious to me but then when I say them it isn't clear to other people. I'm going to try one more time, and if I'm still not clear I'm going to drop it.

Having actual specific pieces means you have to use actual specific pieces.

If I can't make the specific pieces fit together in a way that felt right for what I was trying to make, then that's it. I cannot use that power in that game.

In a game with plug-and-play powers, however, where there are no specific pieces, just general guidelines, then I can just make the power I want and it will fit in.

That has always been my experience, that simpler plug and play systems are more homebrew friendly than complex customization systems.

Perhaps as a GM, but what about as a player?

Which is gonna be more likely to fly at a typical table:

"Hey, I made a BeeStream by combining blast and afflict, added a few keywords as appropriate. Here's the points cost for it."

or

"Hey, can I use a power that's nowhere in the system and has no backing mechanically? That we'd have to make wholesale?"

I don't doubt that what you're saying is true for you-but equally, I don't doubt that what Bat is saying is true for them too.

Batcathat

2022-04-22, 06:21 PM

Okay, I have this thing where things can seem really obvious to me but then when I say them it isn't clear to other people. I'm going to try one more time, and if I'm still not clear I'm going to drop it.

Having actual specific pieces means you have to use actual specific pieces.

If I can't make the specific pieces fit together in a way that felt right for what I was trying to make, then that's it. I cannot use that power in that game.

In a game with plug-and-play powers, however, where there are no specific pieces, just general guidelines, then I can just make the power I want and it will fit in.

That has always been my experience, that simpler plug and play systems are more homebrew friendly than complex customization systems.

Sure, if the options are "make up whatever you want" and "have rules for how to make something" the former will obviously always be more flexible (though at least in the case of M&M, I've yet to find a power concept that doesn't work at all, despite trying to pretty strange ideas). Though in that case I'd rather go completely in that direction instead of having to bother with origins, archetypes and such. But that's obviously a matter of taste.

Rater202

2022-04-22, 06:24 PM

"Hey, can I use a power that's nowhere in the system and has no backing mechanically? That we'd have to make wholesale?"

In a system like this with simple plug-and-play powers, this would fly under any reasonable GM as long as the power was in line with what was in-game.

Lord Raziere

2022-04-22, 06:31 PM

Sure, if the options are "make up whatever you want" and "have rules for how to make something" the former will obviously always be more flexible (though at least in the case of M&M, I've yet to find a power concept that doesn't work at all, despite trying to pretty strange ideas). Though in that case I'd rather go completely in that direction instead of having to bother with origins, archetypes and such. But that's obviously a matter of taste.

I find that M&M3e works really well for most powers.

the one instance I've had trouble with it, is trying to emulate something like the Sidereal Exalted: something with very esoteric, specific and abstract powers like "make people believe the opposite of what you say like your cassandra", or " make people not love a person" or "turn someone into an enlightened serpentine dragon so you can ride them like a steed".

Rater202

2022-04-22, 06:43 PM

Moving on: Do you think the full game will have a Dedicated Symbiote power set or would you have to re-fluff Spider-Powers?

EggKookoo

2022-04-22, 08:08 PM

Moving on: Do you think the full game will have a Dedicated Symbiote power set or would you have to re-fluff Spider-Powers?

I would expect a Powerset, or some reasonable facsimile.

Regarding custom powers, if that's what we're talking about, combat mechanics in this game seem mostly locked to Archetype and Rank. Especially to-hit bonuses, defense values, and damage. It's not a lot of work to reflavor things.

Quertus

2022-04-22, 08:19 PM

Oh, and speaking of: one of the prerequisites is Rank. And Rank prerequisites always seem to be evenly divisible by 5. So, AFAICT, this system actually has 6 levels: 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25. The rest are just fluff to make it feel like you're advancing.

This has bothered me since I said it, because it sounds (or could be taken as) negative. It actually isn't.

So, there's a lot of potential power levels in a Supers game. It actually feels like the authors thought about that, and tried to group similarly powered concepts together.

And another comment, about "maximum power" and an expected 5-level range also shows some good thinking. A character likely doesn't feel like themselves from level 1-25; this system was built (presumably) to have characters that feel like themselves while progressing through about 5 levels.

This (from what little I remember of what little I skimmed) actually speaks highly of the game. Supers games are generally *terrible* about leveling, and basing a game on D&D, with its "0 to hero" power curve could have been a disaster. But it seems like the designers were on the ball on this one.

However

The designers misspoke badly in trying to explain this, and said something like, "most people prefer to run their character for 5 levels". That is NOT something that they have any grounds to say in the beta, any more than I could play with my home group and say, "most people prefer to taunt Mike Myers while using this power".

So, if the designers were more honest, able to communicate like adults, and explained what they were actually doing here, it would be a good thing.

So we start out with an Alien Origin, then pick up a God Origin, and maybe eventually a High Tech Origin. Probably a decently high-Rank character, but that's what I would expect.

But I want to be the Alien God of Tentacle Hugs! I'm just a 1st level character with Additional Limbs (and maybe Healing Factor).

Your storyteller was just straight-up wrong. The mage core rulebook was very clear that you could achieve functionally identical effects through using different combinations of spheres, so long as you explained how you were incorporating them. The example in the book was a Mage transforming herself into a tiger using either Life and Spirit magic or, IIRC, some combination of Matter, Forces, and Prime.

I'll not disagree with your assessment. I've... had a lot of bad GMs. Including a storyteller who wouldn't let me use rotes straight out of the book. And a storyteller under whom nothing short of use of cosmic McGuffins ever accomplished anything. All of my Mage characters developed psychological flaws (my choice) based on the storyteller(s) they were run under: belief that nothing short of cosmic McGuffins was worthwhile, belief that continuity was a lie, belief that reality was ending, etc.

My experience with Mage was quite depressing, especially given the system's potential.

In a system like this with simple plug-and-play powers, this would fly under any reasonable GM as long as the power was in line with what was in-game.

I'll simply reiterate that my experience has been lacking in reasonable GMs.

EggKookoo

2022-04-23, 01:31 PM

But I want to be the Alien God of Tentacle Hugs! I'm just a 1st level character with Additional Limbs (and maybe Healing Factor).

The rules do mention building your own custom Origin (again, with GM approval). That might take you where you need to go. Of course if you're going to do that, your GM might just not be strict about Origin/Powerset restrictions and let you pick from whatever sets you want.

Rater202

2022-04-23, 04:39 PM

So, hypothetical question:

Let's say that I want to play as Krakaren, a girl born when Weapon IV created a zygote from donor tissues and then merged it wit samples taken from Krakoan plants before placing the resulting embryo in an artificial womb and aging it up to the point to where it could be taught in an attempt to create a means of infiltrating Krakoa for whatever reason Weapon Plus has this week only for her to escape captivity and get loose in the wild before being found by the other PCs?

Her powers are regeneration, shapeshifting plant-based weapons from her body, and a limited ability to influence local plant-life.

Is that possible under the current playtest rules(even if the fluff has to be fudged) or is that something that has to wait for the complete game to see if that's in there?

EggKookoo

2022-04-23, 05:16 PM

Is that possible under the current playtest rules(even if the fluff has to be fudged) or is that something that has to wait for the complete game to see if that's in there?

Technically, no. But only because there is no plant control Powerset (or Powers). They emphasize that there are many more Powers and Powersets planned, and I would expect plant control to be among them. The book states outright that they expect you to be able to replicate any character from the comics, up to power levels around Thor and Captain Marvel (Danvers version).

Can you be specific about "plant-based weapons"? Like Groot, with tendrils? He has Crushing Grip and Extended Reach. If Krakaren is blasting with "plant energy" beam-ish weapons, you could probably use the Energy Control Powerset for that. It has various energy-projection attack powers.

Regeneration is there as Healing Factor, which just flat-out restores Health every round. Nothing is mentioned about regenerating limbs and such, but really nothing is mentioned about severing them either.

Regarding Origin, that might fall under your preference of Weird Science or Mutant. There may be some others coming that fit better.

Rater202

2022-04-23, 05:21 PM

Technically, no. But only because there is no plant control Powerset (or Powers). They emphasize that there are many more Powers and Powersets planned, and I would expect plant control to be among them. The book states outright that they expect you to be able to replicate any character from the comics, up to power levels around Thor and Captain Marvel (Danvers version).

Can you be specific about "plant-based weapons"? Like Groot, with tendrils? He has Crushing Grip and Extended Reach. If Krakaren is blasting with "plant energy" beam-ish weapons, you could probably use the Energy Control Powerset for that. It has various energy-projection attack powers.

Regeneration is there as Healing Factor, which just flat-out restores Health every round. Nothing is mentioned about regenerating limbs and such, but really nothing is mentioned about severing them either.

Regarding Origin, that might fall under your preference of Weird Science or Mutant. There may be some others coming that fit better.

Like a tentacle made out of a vie or a giant wooden spike out of the forearm.

...Technically since she's derived from Krakoa energy weapons would be on the table, but those are all Forge, a technopath, making things out of Krakoan plants rather than Krakoa naturally producing that.

And I need the full game now because I really wanna stress test that "make any character from the comics" thing.

EggKookoo

2022-04-23, 05:33 PM

Like a tentacle made out of a vie or a giant wooden spike out of the forearm.

So within reason, it looks like you can just declare damage types in a common sense fashion. Wolverine has powers from the Blades powerset, but I don't see anywhere where it actual specifies that attacks with Powers from that set do slashing. Under an earlier section on weapons, it just says bladed weapons will do slashing, and I guess that's all we need. But it also implies you can just do whatever, as long as it makes sense.

So you could give her Mighty from the Super-Strength Powerset, which increases her fight (melee) damage, and just say it's slashing or piercing and be done with it. Then maybe Extended Reach from the Plasticity Powerset, so her reach quadruples (so, 20' in most cases). She would need to be at least Rank 5 to get Powers from two different sets, and that would give her 5 Powers overall. For reference, Miles Morales Spider-Man and Wolverine are Rank 10, Iron Man and Captain America are Rank 15, Thor is Rank 20, and Captain Marvel is Rank 25.

...Technically since she's derived from Krakoa energy weapons would be on the table, but those are all Forge, a technopath, making things out of Krakoan plants rather than Krakoa naturally producing that.

If you're adding those in, a third Powerset becomes available at Rank 8.

And I need the full game now because I really wanna stress test that "make any character from the comics" thing.

"Including Aunt May."

Anonymouswizard

2022-04-23, 05:34 PM

Well this rulebook got me pulling out Venture City Again, so maybe I'll be running supers soon

Honestly what worries me most is powerset limitations combined with pegging scale to level/rank. It means you can't play a street level super with a broad array of minor powers, while cosmic-level heroes can still be focused of they choose doy. Most supers games solve this by just letting you spread your points as much as you want, in Champions or M&M you can definitely make a viable character who boosts attack/defence to campaign levels and then buys a lot of low ranked powers.

I'm also, like everybody, worried about powerset overlap and if it's going to lead to reprints or repeated powers. Because I'm sure we're going to see stuff like Wall Crawling and Swinging in the Spiderbloke powerset.

Also I'm certain we'll have new powersets used as a way to sell books. Yeah, I'm betting that's one of the reasons for doing it this way.

EggKookoo

2022-04-24, 06:42 AM

Honestly what worries me most is powerset limitations combined with pegging scale to level/rank. It means you can't play a street level super with a broad array of minor powers, while cosmic-level heroes can still be focused of they choose doy. Most supers games solve this by just letting you spread your points as much as you want, in Champions or M&M you can definitely make a viable character who boosts attack/defence to campaign levels and then buys a lot of low ranked powers.

The Marvel system allows you to gain more powers if you refrain from taking powers from additional powersets. If you're creating a street-level hero, say Rank 8, you have access to 8 powers from 3 sets, not including Utility powers which don't count as a powerset. If you take powers from just one of your sets, you get 2 extra powers from that set to pick from. By Rank 8 you also have 3 Traits (over and above those from your Origin(s) and Profession(s)). One Trait you can take multiple times is Surprising Power, which allows you to pick a power you "couldn't normally take." I think that's meant to say you can pick a power from a powerset not available to you by default, but it's worded openly enough that I could see that meaning you could take a power without having a prerequisite power, or even taking powers from powersets available to you without officially "using" that powerset and therefore not disqualifying you from taking extra powers.

Rank 8 is below Wolverine and Morales Spider-Man, and probably below Daredevil (they don't provide his stats). This character can have 13 powers, three of which from any powerset and any number of which from utility powers.

I'm also, like everybody, worried about powerset overlap and if it's going to lead to reprints or repeated powers. Because I'm sure we're going to see stuff like Wall Crawling and Swinging in the Spiderbloke powerset.

There's a Spider-Powers powerset, which I agree feels strangely specific. I would have expected something more like Creature Powers with a Spider subset. Maybe that's some good feedback I can give them (there's an online form to submit feedback).

Rater202

2022-04-24, 07:44 AM

A specific spider-power set makes sense because "spider-person" is a distinct category of superhuman.

I imagine that the finished game will have a distinct Ghost Rider powerset as well.

EggKookoo

2022-04-24, 08:11 AM

A specific spider-power set makes sense because "spider-person" is a distinct category of superhuman.

I imagine that the finished game will have a distinct Ghost Rider powerset as well.

I think there is (or should be) a difference between in-fiction distinctions and the kinds of distinctions one should make when designing a game meant to be broad enough to create something out of your imagination. Spider-avatar (or whatever) exists sort of the same as Sorcerer Supreme or God of Thunder or Phoenix. It's an in-universe "thing" for sure. But when making a game, ideally you'd want flexibility and avoid feeling like you're pigeonholing player choices. I want to make someone with spider-man-ish powers without him actually being a mythos Spider-Person-Thing. Am I bound to that mythos thing if I pick the Spider Powers Powerset? It's not clear. But if there was something like a Creature Powers Powerset, with a Spiders subset, I feel freer to make the character I want.

I would also argue to same for a Ghost Rider, although his powers can probably be represented through other powersets and he gets his Ghost-Rider-ness mostly just through flavoring and roleplaying. Or perhaps some thematic Trait that supports those kind of narrative hooks.

I guess this is all subjective, like most such things. I prefer Powers and Powersets to be descriptive of the mechanical abilities of the PC, and the thematic/narrative role of the character is handled through the fluff.