Why did Xykon left Serini free? (SoD spoilers)

[Precure]

In Start of Darkness, first thing Xykon done after killing Lirian is soul binding her into a black gemstone, so she can get "no raising, no resurrection, no well-deserved final rest" until the end of his existence. He's done the same thing to Dorukan later, probably because of the same reasons. His attack on the halfling happened between these two events, yet he didn't care to soul bind Serini, despite of his need for her to break her secret code. Was it stupidy alone, or something more sinister is going on?

[Grey Watcher]

In Start of Darkness, first thing Xykon done after killing Lirian is soul binding her into a black gemstone, so she can get "no raising, no resurrection, no well-deserved final rest" until the end of his existence. He's done the same thing to Dorukan later, probably because of the same reasons. His attack on the halfling happened between these two events, yet he didn't care to soul bind Serini, despite of his need for her to break her secret code. Was it stupidy alone, or something more sinister is going on?

With Serini, he just didn't care. Not even enough to make sure she was definitely dead. He doesn't see her as a threat, so even if she somehow survived, it wouldn't make a difference, in his estimation.

With Lirian, trapping her soul in the gem was specifically because she was a Druid and had given him a whole spiel before about the importance of natural cycles and such. So stuffing her soul in the gem and zombifying her body are specifically to keep both her body and her soul from going through their proper natural cycle.

And finally with Dorukan, probably mainly just convenience. With maybe some outside consideration that, as a Wizard, he might have some crazy way to come back as a ghost or a clone or something, but if his soul is trapped, none of those work. Also, because Xykon doesn't understand how love works, he probably thinks trapping them together is somehow worse, not better.

[Kantaki]

Considering he didn't even bother to finish her off?
Serini was probably beneath his notice.
Xykon left her heavily injured- dying really -in the middle of nowhere.
Next to a bunch of monsters.

He probably figured the trolls'd eat her or whatever.
And even if not, even if she miraculously survives or gets raised, so what?
She's not really a threat. WHat's a rogue gonna do to him?
Stick a knife between his ribs?

Unlike Lirian and Dorukan Serini just wasn't threat (Or in Dorukan's case one of those "Better than you, looking down on sorcerors" wizard).
Give the druid or the wizard a chance to come back for round two and they'll be prepared next time.
A rogue still can only stab you.
(Well, she could pick up Righteye's little trick, but Xykon already has countermeasures for that)

Basically Xykon didn't care and/or found it funnier to leave Serini like that.

[dancrilis]

His attack on the halfling happened between these two events, yet he didn't care to soul bind Serini, despite of his need for her to break her secret code. Was it stupidy alone, or something more sinister is going on?

Theory: Xykon didn't know he attacked Serini to get her diary, Xykon just decided to kill a person and randomly decided to steal her diary - years later he found out it mattered to his plotline (most people he kills and steals books from are still worth a read - all life stories are somewhat interesting).

[mjasghar]

Perhaps this reflects a major weakness of Xykon
He is pro caster prejudiced, particularly towards arcane casting.
With his ability to spam anti magic and his innate negative energy abilities, I guess he feels non casters have no chance against him because he can shut down their protections and then spam them with damage. Perhaps this explains him getting caught out by Roy in the first dungeon and being saved by plot (similarly saved by plot vs the ghost martyrs).
What he forgets is that just as his build is very strong against casters and unprepared others, others can create builds designed against undead casters - even when being determined to be a pure fighter Roy has selected feats against casting and acquired a weapon vs undead. That is enhanced by the ability to work with others to negate Xykon’s build. Specifically, o’chul’s notes on his spell list exploits the main limit of sorcerers because they know what he simply cannot do and what he himself relies on objects to make up in his limitations. Information is victory.

[Mad Humanist]

Theory: Xykon didn't know he attacked Serini to get her diary, Xykon just decided to kill a person and randomly decided to steal her diary - years later he found out it mattered to his plotline (most people he kills and steals books from are still worth a read - all life stories are somewhat interesting).

Nope. Serini told Lien and O-Chul that when the Trolls found her she had a lot of wealth on her. So if Xykon was doing a a murder-mugging he would have gone for the wealth. I guess the wealth was hidden.

Also I think we know from SoD that Xykon spent ages tracking down Serni's diary.

[Mike Havran]

Negligence on Xykon's part. He thought she was beyond recovery after his attack.

Lirian and Dorukan pissed him off by lecturing him so he gave them special treatment.

[BloodSquirrel]

Lirian and Dorukan both managed to personally piss him off. Lirian defeated him, threw him in her nature prison thing, and left him there to die. Dorukan pushed one of his major buttons (condescending wizard bull****). Both of them were much more major obstacles and earned serious attention on his part. Even if he didn't have to worry about either of them being a threat ever again, he still would have wanted them to suffer.

Serini was nothing to him. He had no special reason to care about her other than her diary, and so he defaulted to his usual of being lazy and sloppy.

[Liquor Box]

Xykon would have let Roy live after their confrontation had he not forced the issue.

I agree with others, Xykon is only bothered about finishing opponents that were a serious threat.

[wilphe]

Perhaps this reflects a major weakness of Xykon
He is pro caster prejudiced, particularly towards arcane casting.
With his ability to spam anti magic and his innate negative energy abilities, I guess he feels non casters have no chance against him because he can shut down their protections and then spam them with damage.


"I used to think spells equalled power too, back when I was alive. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

You know what does equal power?

Power

Power equals power

But the type of power?

Doesn't matter as much as you might think"


Eugene thinks magic is all that matters, and V certainly did, but Xykon?

No, not even in SOD he knew RightEye was a threat

[Grey Watcher]

Negligence on Xykon's part. He thought she was beyond recovery after his attack.

Lirian and Dorukan pissed him off by lecturing him so he gave them special treatment.

I'm always both gratified and annoyed when someone states the point I was trying to make way more succinctly and efficiently than I did. :smalltongue:

[Ionathus]

Negligence on Xykon's part. He thought she was beyond recovery after his attack.

Lirian and Dorukan pissed him off by lecturing him so he gave them special treatment.

To expand this point even further: it's entirely possible Xykon really did think Serini was already dead. A hit like that could easily have knocked her unconscious and brought her vital signs to minimal.

His decision to not make sure she was dead is explained quite well by you and others: he didn't think she was worth the time or effort. Though the point of "why not hang on to her for interrogation" is a good one: maybe Xykon doesn't prefer torture as a purely stylistic choice (thinks it's boring and not "cool" enough).


Theory: Xykon didn't know he attacked Serini to get her diary, Xykon just decided to kill a person and randomly decided to steal her diary - years later he found out it mattered to his plotline (most people he kills and steals books from are still worth a read - all life stories are somewhat interesting).

Or he knew (somehow) that the coordinates were encoded in a halfling's diary and went on a grand murder/burglary spree to collect 'em all.

[Liquor Box]

A couple of people have mentioned the failure to kill Serini as negligence, laziness, sloppiness or weakness. But not killing her hasn't come back to bite him in any way yet. It would have benefitted him had Serini not failed against the Order.

[Peelee]

A couple of people have mentioned the failure to kill Serini as negligence, laziness, sloppiness or weakness. But not killing her hasn't come back to bite him in any way yet. It would have benefitted him had Serini not failed against the Order.

That's an excellent point. I don't think he could have foreseen that but it very nearly worked in his favor to keep her alive.

[elros]

I have wondered why the Giant had Xykon trap Dor and Lil in the gem. I understand Xykon wanted to prevent resurrection, but it seems like they are going to return in some way.
And that is why I think Xykon didn’t trap Serini- the Giant wanted her to serve a different purpose in the story.

[Precure]

A couple of people have mentioned the failure to kill Serini as negligence, laziness, sloppiness or weakness. But not killing her hasn't come back to bite him in any way yet. It would have benefitted him had Serini not failed against the Order.

He lost precious time decoding the diary and searching for her gate.

[Psyren]

Xykon considers spellcasters to be a bigger threat. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) In general he's right, since this world is based on D&D 3.5, and anyway he's hardly the first big bad to draw a similar conclusion.

(Of course my Ring of Power is wherever Gandalf is! Who else would guard something so important? Better focus on that!)

[KorvinStarmast]

And that is why I think Xykon didn’t trap Serini- the Giant wanted her to serve a different purpose in the story. I'll +1 this.

[Sylian]

Xykon probably predicted that Sereni would be scared of him and thus try to stop any adventuring team from stopping Xykon, since that adventuring team might end up destroying the final gate. It was a gamble on his part, and it seems that Sereni failed. Gotta give him props for having the foresight to predict what Sereni would do, though!

Or, more realistically, he just didn't see her as much of a threat. Probably that. :smallcool:

[yokyok]

Redcloak: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) "It's not the halfling who is important... it's with whom the halfling was friends that matters!"

Serini (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1249.html): "Dor and Liri were so much better than me..."

Xykon's opinion of her was probably the same as Redcloak's and her own: someone who hanged out with important people but was utterly replaceable. Like Yikyik and family to the Linear Guild, or like Tarquin was afraid Elan would be when outshined by Roy and the others.

In addition, Serini wasn't guarding a gate. She only came back to Kraagor's Gate after being attacked and disfigured by Xykon. Xykon was only trying to take control of the gates, not going after members of the Order of the Scribble in particular.

[Liquor Box]

That's an excellent point. I don't think he could have foreseen that but it very nearly worked in his favor to keep her alive.

No, he probably couldn't have predicted she would do anything that would actively benefit him. But any assumption by him that she would not be a threat in the future has (so far) turned out to be right.


He lost precious time decoding the diary and searching for her gate.

He would have had to have done those things whether he killed her or not.

[hungrycrow]

He would have had to have done those things whether he killed her or not.

Hmm, if he hadn't left her for dead, he could have tortured her for details on her own Gate.

[hroþila]

And that is why I think Xykon didn’t trap Serini- the Giant wanted her to serve a different purpose in the story.
Say No to Doylist explanations

[elros]

Say No to Doylist explanations
Fair enough (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist). My answer would be that Xykon said his one-liner (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1227.html) so there was no reason for him to hang around. After all, he wants to save his best material for the PCs (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html).
But I still wonder how Dor and Liri will appear again.

[Kish]

Hmm, if he hadn't left her for dead, he could have tortured her for details on her own Gate.
Torture doesn't actually compel truth.

Even in a world where the ability to detect lying is strictly governed by numerical rules...epic-level rogue with "the Charisma for" being a paladin before aging bonuses, vs. epic-level sorcerer (Sense Motive is cross-class) with no indications of particularly high Wisdom--Serini could lie to Xykon really easily.

[hungrycrow]

Torture doesn't actually compel truth.

Even in a world where the ability to detect lying is strictly governed by numerical rules...epic-level rogue with "the Charisma for" being a paladin before aging bonuses, vs. epic-level sorcerer (Sense Motive is cross-class) with no indications of particularly high Wisdom--Serini could lie to Xykon really easily.

You're right that torture isn't practical, but the question is whether Xykon thinks torture could work.

[Peelee]

You're right that torture isn't practical, but the question is whether Xykon thinks torture could work.

Or is fun. He definitely thought it was fun with O-Chul.

Of course, paladins like to lecture, and Xykon seems to take most issue with people who try to talk down to him, whether it be wizards or Good proselytizers. Serini doesn't fit those camps so he probably wouldn't derive as much fun from her.

[KillianHawkeye]

Say No to Doylist explanations

Are we against such explanations for some reason? :smallconfused:

[Peelee]

Are we against such explanations for some reason? :smallconfused:

Stories don't make sense for Doylist reasons. They make sense for Watsonian reasons.

[Psyren]

Stories don't make sense for Doylist reasons. They make sense for Watsonian reasons.

I value both, as my sig indicates. When the author explains "this is why", that knowledge enhances my enjoyment of the work.

[Peelee]

I value both, as my sig indicates. When the author explains "this is why", that knowledge enhances my enjoyment of the work.

Ah, but I wasn't talking about enjoyment or value! I completely agree with you, but for a story to make sense, there must be a Watsonian reason behind things. It's dang near axiomatic.

[Psyren]

Ah, but I wasn't talking about enjoyment or value! I completely agree with you, but for a story to make sense, there must be a Watsonian reason behind things. It's dang near axiomatic.

That's fair, Watsonian is more critical.

[Liquor Box]

Hmm, if he hadn't left her for dead, he could have tortured her for details on her own Gate.
I've no comment on the debate about the effectiveness of torture. But, either way, it's not an argument that Xykon made a mistake by not killing Serini.

[elros]

Xykon enjoyed torturing O-Chul because he kept fighting back. After he fried Serini, she was defeated and he thought it more fun to move on. Maybe if she fought back he would have tortured or destroyed her (of if he was really bored), but he was too excited to get started on her journal.

[Precure]

Xykon defeated O-Chul easily as well at their first confrontation. They were torturing and interrogating him because they need intel on other gates.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Hmm, if he hadn't left her for dead, he could have tortured her for details on her own Gate.Or rather, more details on the encryption of her diary, being as that Xykon seems to have known she had a diary and she can't really lie about how it's encrypted.

[Mike Havran]

Or rather, more details on the encryption of her diary, being as that Xykon seems to have known she had a diary and she can't really lie about how it's encrypted. Well, only the locations were encrypted, not the whole diary. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) Presumably, Xykon started to read the book from the start in some hideout and by the time he realized the locations were encrypted, he assumed the halfling was already dead and well beyond the power of Soul Bind.

[Jason]

Do you suppose his Soul Bind gem has limited space, and he's saving what space is left for someone who really annoys him?

[Mike Havran]

Do you suppose his Soul Bind gem has limited space, and he's saving what space is left for someone who really annoys him?No, but you need to cast the spell almost immediately (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) after the creature expires.

[Jason]

The gem has a limitation - it has to be worth 1,000 gp for every hit die of the creature whose soul is to be bound. Considering it has a high-level druid and wizard in it already the gem probably couldn't handle Serini, a high-level rogue, too.

[Mike Havran]

The gem has a limitation - it has to be worth 1,00 gp [sic] for every hit die of the creature whose soul is to be bound. Considering it has a high-level druid and wizard in it already the gem probably couldn't handle Serini, a high-level rogue, too.
The gem was obviously capable of holding both Lirian and Dorukan, and Xykon's interaction with Serini happened before his battle with Dorukan.

[Synesthesy]

Xykon doesn't kill people. Xykon cast "meteor swarm" on them, sometime more then once. Or other fire spell. Sometimes lightning. Simply most of the times there is no difference between killing someone and strike them down with superior magic power, it is important only on very high level characters like Serini.

Everyone Xykon tryed to kill is someone the lich hated, like Lirian who defeated and mocked him, Dorukan who mocked him too, Eugene's master who was kinda "racist" against him as a sorcerer, and Vaarsuvius who thought to be better then him just because she had even more superior magic power then him, but just because of a trick.

For all other people, Xykon uses his violence and he doesn't care about them after.

[Precure]

Xykon doesn't kill people. Xykon cast "meteor swarm" on them, sometime more then once. Or other fire spell. Sometimes lightning. Simply most of the times there is no difference between killing someone and strike them down with superior magic power, it is important only on very high level characters like Serini.

Everyone Xykon tryed to kill is someone the lich hated, like Lirian who defeated and mocked him, Dorukan who mocked him too, Eugene's master who was kinda "racist" against him as a sorcerer, and Vaarsuvius who thought to be better then him just because she had even more superior magic power then him, but just because of a trick.

For all other people, Xykon uses his violence and he doesn't care about them after.

That's why I added "was it stupidy alone" as a possibility.

[JonahFalcon]

"Hey, look! I made a three-eighthsling!" screams to me he gravely injured her for the lols and wasn't particularly worried if she lived or died.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Also, that spell he used was most probably Blackfire, a spell that doesn't kill its victim instantly and instead makes them suffer atrociously for a few rounds before that. Xykon wasn't gonna wait for Serini to stop burning to make sure she was dead. In his mind, there probably was absolutely no way for a class with low Fortitude to make three Fortitude saves in a row. On top of it, no one can help her without being burned alive as well, and if she dies, she's reduced to ashes and requires true rez plus a CL check to be resurrected (CL check DC 30, so higher than most, if not all current casters in the world could manage at the time). Reduced to ashes in the middle of a forest where nobody knows she even is, and requiring a 9th level spell to be resurrected, and even then, it's not even sure? There really is no point to bind her soul at that point, and Xykon wasn't doing that if it meant staying there for the minute it would take for Serini to die.

Serini got insanely lucky to be able to shake off the blackfire. In any other circumstance (what are the odds of making three DC 27+ checks with around +10 Fortitude (+7 from levels, +2 from Con, maybe +1 from items) before you die from Con loss? Not high.), she would have died. Xykon didn't leave Serini free, he left her for dead.

[Jason]

Xykon seems to save the Soul Binding for people who really annoy him. Lirian for taking his power and then forcing him to go undead, and then Dorukan for pushing his "wizards are superior to sorcerers" button.
Serini simply didn't annoy him enough.

[JonahFalcon]

Serini got insanely lucky to be able to shake off the blackfire.

Lucky? No.

Friendship is magic.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/014/MyLittlePony.jpg

Especially when those friends are green and have regenerative powers.

[Psyren]

"Hey, look! I made a three-eighthsling!" screams to me he gravely injured her for the lols and wasn't particularly worried if she lived or died.

This. Along with his other comments elsewhere, he appears to have a low opinion of non-casters.


Also, that spell he used was most probably Blackfire, a spell that doesn't kill its victim instantly and instead makes them suffer atrociously for a few rounds before that. Xykon wasn't gonna wait for Serini to stop burning to make sure she was dead. In his mind, there probably was absolutely no way for a class with low Fortitude to make three Fortitude saves in a row. On top of it, no one can help her without being burned alive as well, and if she dies, she's reduced to ashes and requires true rez plus a CL check to be resurrected (CL check DC 30, so higher than most, if not all current casters in the world could manage at the time). Reduced to ashes in the middle of a forest where nobody knows she even is, and requiring a 9th level spell to be resurrected, and even then, it's not even sure? There really is no point to bind her soul at that point, and Xykon wasn't doing that if it meant staying there for the minute it would take for Serini to die.

Serini got insanely lucky to be able to shake off the blackfire. In any other circumstance (what are the odds of making three DC 27+ checks with around +10 Fortitude (+7 from levels, +2 from Con, maybe +1 from items) before you die from Con loss? Not high.), she would have died. Xykon didn't leave Serini free, he left her for dead.

As an epic halfling rogue she was probably extremely lucky I'd say

[Beni-Kujaku]

Lucky? No.

Friendship is magic.

Especially when those friends are green and have regenerative powers.

Now I'm picturing Serini struggling to even move to find the trolls, using each round where she is not nauseated by the blackfire to use one of her many magic items to restore some of her Constitution and survive a few rounds longer in hope of finding her friends, to finally get to them with next to no Con left and waking up as a half troll. Poor girl really went through hell, no wonder she's so traumatized by the bony guy. Praise the Elements of Harmony that friendship will always prevail.