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Sir-Carlos
2022-04-24, 04:57 AM
Is it viable to make a Path of the Beast Barbarian who only uses his natural weapons? How would you go about that? Race would be small, so no GWM anyway.

Pixel_Kitsune
2022-04-24, 05:12 AM
My only thought is dealing with non rage combat.

If your game only has a handful of fights a day and you can always rage, cool.

If not, consider finding space for a level of fighter or the feat that gives you a fighting style and choose unarmed.

Mastikator
2022-04-24, 05:36 AM
Tavern brawler feat so you can make unarmed attacks while not raging. Otherwise you still have grapple and shove actions in combat, but you'll be relying on allies for damage.

Depends on the DM and their encounter schedule, a day that fully satisfies an adventuring day will have you not pulling your weight. In that case it's not viable IMO

Zhorn
2022-04-24, 05:37 AM
I've done a small beast barbarian before, but it was built on TWF and not unarmed.
If I were to do unarmed, I'd build around getting the Grappler feat and Fighting Initiate (for Unarmed Fighting Style, or a 1 level Fighter dip) as soon as possible.
Raw damage might not be GWM potential, but the sustained damage is reliable.

Sir-Carlos
2022-04-24, 05:49 AM
I've done a small beast barbarian before, but it was built on TWF and not unarmed.
If I were to do unarmed, I'd build around getting the Grappler feat and Fighting Initiate (for Unarmed Fighting Style, or a 1 level Fighter dip) as soon as possible.
Raw damage might not be GWM potential, but the sustained damage is reliable.

How did you build your small Barbarian? :-)

RogueJK
2022-04-24, 06:53 AM
A weaponless Beast Barbarian can be viable. You won't be dumping huge amounts of damage, but you'll have a lot of attacks when using the Claws and your hands will always be free, which can make for a nice grapple-focused build (since Grapple/Shove attempts replace an attack and require a free hand). Multiple attacks also combos nicely with damage boosts, like your Rage damage bonus, or being near someone with Crusader's Mantle, or being buffed with Enlarge/Reduce.


As mentioned, one drawback of relying on Beast Barbarian's natural weapons is that you won't be raging in 100% of combats. So you'll need a backup option for a weaponless attack. There are a few ways to do this:

1) Have racial natural weapons. Things like the 1d4 Tabaxi claws or Tortle claws, or the 1d6 Lizardfolk bite or Minotaur horns.

2) Take the Tavern Brawler feat. This gets you 1d4 unarmed strikes, +1 STR/CON, and the option to make some BA grapple attempts (although you won't qualify for the BA grapple when relying just on Beast Barbarian natural weapons).

3) Take the Fighting Initiate feat or dip 1 level of Fighter for the Unarmed Fighting Style. This gets you 1d6/1d8 unarmed strikes, plus a bit of bonus damage while grappling.

4) Dip 1 level of Monk. This gets you 1d4 unarmed strikes, plus a BA Martial Arts attack. And since Beast Barbarian Natural Weapons count as Monk weapons, you can reliably trigger this BA attack, which can also be used for Grapple/Shove attempts.


Another drawback is that a weaponless build by definition doesn't use a ranged weapon, so dealing with flying or ranged enemies can be troublesome. Ways to get around this include:

1) Take the Tavern Brawler feat and fling improvised thrown weapons - rocks, tree limbs, beer mugs, shoes, etc. This works with Rage, as well as your Rage damage bonus.

2) Get an attack cantrip, either through your race, a caster dip, or a feat like Magic Initiate. You just can't cast spells while Raging, so won't be usable in 100% of turns.

3) Have a racial flying ability, like Aarakocra or Fairy.


Just note that in this particular case, a Small race isn't the best option for a Grapple-focused character, since you can only grapple enemies who are no more than 1 size larger than you. So with a Small PC, that means you can only grapple up to Medium sized enemies. And a bunch of enemies are Large+.

There also aren't any Small races with natural weapons, unless you're using the soon-to-be-released racial reworks in MGttM, so that lessens your options for backup non-Rage combat.

Zhorn
2022-04-24, 07:03 AM
How did you build your small Barbarian? :-)
This initial concept was building the character as a response to discourse on 'TWF bad' & 'small Barbarian bad'
We were starting a new campaign, and for half the group this was their first ever 5e game. On the lead up to creating characters some of them started looking at optimizer threads, so I decided I'd pick some things they were talking about as things to avoid, just to demonstrate to the table that for regular play such build worked perfectly fine.

Custom lineage to be small and have the Fighting Initiate feat to get Two Weapon Fighting without needing a level dip outside of Barbarian.
Level 4 ASI on Dual Wielder feat (again specifically because it was called out as a bad feat)
By level 5 it was pretty much online, but as TWF tends to perform well at those lower levels, it was never underperforming compared to the rest of the party (being able to divide my damage up was very handy).

For opening combat I'd have a versatile weapon drawn

Step 1a: Bonus Action Rage (choose claws)
Step 2a: Attack Action with the weapon (two handed for versatile)
Step 2a: switch to holding one handed and the empty hand now Extra Attack with claw
Step 3a: Free claw as part of the same action (same claw, feature doesn't specify it has to be a different claw)
Step 4a: Object interaction draw an offhand weapon
This set up the 'starting state' for every other turn to return to for the remainder of combat.

From there, the go-to attack rotation was

Step 1b: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2b: Attack Action with claw
Step 3b: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4b: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5b: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6b: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our 'starting state'.

It can be done without dual wielder if you stick to light weapons, and if you make sure to carry enough handaxes to throw it give a reliable ranged option, though you have to be on top of which attacks are part of the Action vs Bonus Action. But still, when you run out of weapons, you're still a pint-sized murder machine with the claws.
Plus at level 6 the jump you can do with Bestial Soul makes you a fun little menace on the field, leaping up and grappling flyers who thought they were out of reach.

solidork
2022-04-24, 09:02 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in the upcoming book, most racial natural weapons are getting buffed to 1d6 damage.

Sorinth
2022-04-24, 09:59 AM
This initial concept was building the character as a response to discourse on 'TWF bad' & 'small Barbarian bad'
We were starting a new campaign, and for half the group this was their first ever 5e game. On the lead up to creating characters some of them started looking at optimizer threads, so I decided I'd pick some things they were talking about as things to avoid, just to demonstrate to the table that for regular play such build worked perfectly fine.

Custom lineage to be small and have the Fighting Initiate feat to get Two Weapon Fighting without needing a level dip outside of Barbarian.
Level 4 ASI on Dual Wielder feat (again specifically because it was called out as a bad feat)
By level 5 it was pretty much online, but as TWF tends to perform well at those lower levels, it was never underperforming compared to the rest of the party (being able to divide my damage up was very handy).

For opening combat I'd have a versatile weapon drawn

Step 1a: Bonus Action Rage (choose claws)
Step 2a: Attack Action with the weapon (two handed for versatile)
Step 2a: switch to holding one handed and the empty hand now Extra Attack with claw
Step 3a: Free claw as part of the same action (same claw, feature doesn't specify it has to be a different claw)
Step 4a: Object interaction draw an offhand weapon
This set up the 'starting state' for every other turn to return to for the remainder of combat.

From there, the go-to attack rotation was

Step 1b: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2b: Attack Action with claw
Step 3b: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4b: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5b: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6b: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our 'starting state'.

It can be done without dual wielder if you stick to light weapons, and if you make sure to carry enough handaxes to throw it give a reliable ranged option, though you have to be on top of which attacks are part of the Action vs Bonus Action. But still, when you run out of weapons, you're still a pint-sized murder machine with the claws.
Plus at level 6 the jump you can do with Bestial Soul makes you a fun little menace on the field, leaping up and grappling flyers who thought they were out of reach.

Couldn't you have Attack with the Versatile weapon two-handed, free action to hold in one hand, Extra Attack with Claws twice, and then bonus action attack with with Vesatile weapon one handed? Could have avoided the whole constantly dropping weapons part as there isn't really a mainhand/offhand distinction in 5e.

Zhorn
2022-04-24, 10:13 AM
Couldn't you have Attack with the Versatile weapon two-handed, free action to hold in one hand, Extra Attack with Claws twice, and then bonus action attack with with Vesatile weapon one handed? Could have avoided the whole constantly dropping weapons part as there isn't really a mainhand/offhand distinction in 5e.
You'll need a feature to allow the Bonus Action attack.

The whole order of operations as I've set it out is to very precisely navigate RAW to get both the free claw attack AND the TWF Bonus Action attack (that needing a weapon in each hand at the point where you make an attack with the Attack Action to activate the Bonus Action attack with the other weapon).
I'm sure there are other ways to get to 4 attacks on your turn as a pure Beast Barbarian who is also small, but this was just how I was getting around it while adhering to RAW.

I did a RAW dive a while back on this without feats; here's a cut'n'past of the relevant section

To start with we need an understanding of dropping vs picking up or drawing a weapon.
Picking up or drawing a weapon will consume your object interaction, while dropping something out of hand does not.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/584435399767883776
The intent is that letting go of something requires no appreciable effort. But picking it up does.
Next is the restriction on what can be done during your Action and between Attacks. The general rule is you cannot interrupt an action to insert something in the middle of it unless there is specific timing mentioned in the rule. This is usually used to explain why you cannot insert a Bonus Action in the middle of an Action if it's trigger is the Attack Action, but you can if the trigger was an Attack (that's another conversation, just setting up for context, now back on track).
The rules for Object Interactions do make such mentions of timing


Other Activity on Your Turn
...
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
...

Interacting with Objects Around You
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
draw or sheathe a sword
...
pick up a dropped axe
...


Breaking Up Your Move
...
Moving between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks.
...
So Object Interactions can be done in tandem with Actions and Movement, and Movement is allowed to occur between attacks.
As an Object Interaction on your turn, you can draw a weapon (or two at once if using the Dual Wielder feat) or pick up a (singular) dropped weapon between Attacks, as either part of the next Attack being made, or as a function of your allowed Movement between Attacks.

Next up is the order of what types of Attacks are being made and whether they are under the Action or Bonus Action.

Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.
The Attacks using the claws from Form of the Beast make no requirement of using different hands for each attack, and so you can do all your claw Attacks in the Attack Action with the same hand if you wish (important if your Barbarian is a shield wielder). For our purposes we only want to make two claw Attacks, one with out initial Attack from the Attack Action, an the second from the triggered feature that allows for one addition claw attack as part of the same action using the same claw (Important, as at this point our opposite hand is currently holding a weapon).
Before we use the Extra Attack, we have a couple more things to be aware of.
First up is our base allowance of attacking with different weapons during the Attack Action

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
Q: When you use Extra Attack, do you have to use the same weapon for all the attacks?
A: Extra Attack imposes no limitation on what you use for the attacks. You can use regular weapons, improvised weapons, unarmed strikes, or a combination of these options for the attacks.
Then there's the condition we want to trigger. As we're intending to use a Bonus Action attack, we must satisfy the requirements.

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
So before we Attack with our weapon (having the light property assuming no Dual Wielder feat), we need to have one in each hand. As covered earlier we can draw or pick up as either part of Movement between Attacks, or as part of an Attack made with that weapon.
With a weapon now in each hand, we use the remaining Attack we have access to with Extra Attack, specifically using the most recently drawn/picked up weapon, and then follow it up with the Bonus Action allowed by meeting the conditions of Two-Weapon Fighting to Attack with the weapon we are holding in our opposite hand.

Now for sustainability each round, we need our starting and ending condition to always be the same.
Assuming no feats, start each round with a light melee weapon in each hand (also assuming you are already raging at this point with claws)

Step 1: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2: Attack Action with claw
Step 3: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our starting state.
4 Attacks with a level 5 Path of the Beast Barbarian, all 100% RAW compliant and supported without feats

Sherlockpwns
2022-04-25, 01:07 AM
If you are at a tier 2 level you could do a psi rogue clawbarian. Psiclawps?

Anyway at level 8 you could do rage bonus followed by psi-blade attack and two claws, and following rounds 2 psi knives and two claws.

This is also featless without the whole dropping weapons thing and completely “unarmed” in a way.

After 8 I’d bring barbarian to 6 to overcome magic resistance and get rages, and then rogue the rest of the way. There is something funny about the mix to me, not entirely sure how I’d play it beyond the mechanics.

Of course the easiest answer is still just take dual wielder, but giving up your stat bonus on the bonus attack is kinda lame, especially since you get the rage bonus. So probably swap to fighter at 6 for twf, second wind, maybe go to 3 or 4 for battlemaster abilities.

As stated by others the claws shine when you have someone who can cast a spell on you, but no matter what you do the claw barbarian will be middle of the road. Nothing wrong with it, exactly, but there just isn’t a lot there. In the end if you get twf and dual wield you are looking at a max of 4d6+28 per round, or ~42 dpr if you land all your shots. A respectable sum for level 6, but it’s 10.5 less on the first round and … I mean that’s all you do. It’s kinda like the champion fighter. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, just… kinda is.

Then again I often advise people to make simple characters like that so you can spend more time on the RP and having fun in combat instead of having your attention on dozens of spells and abilities, worried more about mechanics than actually enjoying the game. All depends on what you like!

LudicSavant
2022-04-25, 01:21 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in the upcoming book, most racial natural weapons are getting buffed to 1d6 damage.

In MPMM, there are no natural weapons, it's all unarmed strike modifications (and they are 1d6 damage).

Zhorn
2022-04-25, 01:39 AM
If you are at a tier 2 level you could do a psi rogue clawbarian. Psiclawps?

Ok, reading into the mechanics on that. looks like it'll work.
Definitely gonna keep Beast5/Soulknife3 in mind, looks like it would be pretty fun.

Expertise in Athletics synergizes well with the jump from Beastial Soul, and generally makes the Barbarian stronger in grapples and climbing on bigger creatures.

Cunning Action gives you an extra tool to navigate around the battlefield, bonus action dashing to close to melee distance AND still have your Attack Action, increased value with Barbarian's Fast Movement

Sneak Attack will be reliable to get with the Psychic Blades, and even just the 2d6 will help offset not using bigger weapons (plus psychic damage is good)

And then Thieves Cant as always useful for roleplay. Gives you a social tool, which folks tend to complain that Barbarians are lacking in.

Again, agreeing that a Barbarian that instead optimizes around GWM etc will do more damage, but as a versatile build this idea does seem like a reasonable trade.
Then again Beast Barbarian already appeals to me. the versatility of Beastial Soul already is a winner in my book, being one short rest away from having an ideal movement option for almost any dungeon or environment exploration. More fun than focusing on 'just damage'.

Psyren
2022-04-25, 01:52 AM
They're plenty viable but they have three main drawbacks:

1) Your natural weapons from Form of the Bezast only appear when you're raging, so if your goal is to be unarmed all the time, you may find yourself in fights where you don't have access to those. Your best bet here is a racial means of attacking unarmed, or alternatively a feat like Tavern Brawler or Fighting Initiate (Unarmed Fighting Style) if you start off with a bonus feat, e.g. VHuman.

2) They lack a bonus action attack built-in, which is of course a big source of additional damage. You can either attempt to get a bonus action racial attack, or else use your bonus action for something else thematic e.g. Tavern Brawler's bonus action grapple.

3) As written, any unarmed strikes or natural weapons from outside this class don't benefit from Bestial Soul, the feature thta lets you count your Beast weapons as magical. Without this, your bonus action attacks are likely to be weak at mid-high levels where resistance/immunity become more common. My recommendation is that you chat with your DM and see if they'll let your "soul" encompass the ones you were born with too. If that doesn't work however, there are other options here.

My preferred choice of race for this is Longtooth Shifter, as they get a bite attack as a bonus action when they shift, which they can do (as of MPMM) proficiency bonus/LR. This bite can be used alongside their claws, and on less important fights you can simply choose one or the other, letting you conserve both rage and shifting uses, particularly at low levels. For your biggest fight of the day, you can do both and get a nearly obscene number of attacks especially when hasted. As noted above, Bestial Soul doesn't work with the racial bite as written, but I think a lot of DMs will simply let it apply.

Kane0
2022-04-25, 02:42 AM
Shifter Beast Barb was my first thought too. Thematically dovetailed and not bad mechanically, i'm sure you could ask your DM to be small.

J-H
2022-04-25, 08:50 AM
You can do fine without TWF cheese, anyway. (Wouldn't fly at my table)

With no items:
At 5th level you're attacking 3 times for 1d6+str+rage(2), so probably about 3d6+15 total damage, average 24. You beat out an Eldritch Blast Warlock (2d10+8, average 17) and are generally competitive with all but a few outlier builds (GWM/SS feats).
At 20th level with 24 strength, you're attacking 3 times for 1d6+7+4, or 3d6+33 total damage, average 42, with no items. An EB Warlock is doing 4d10+20, average 42. If you've pumped STR & CON, your naked AC is also 24, which is quite good.

JNAProductions
2022-04-25, 09:00 AM
Average of 1d6 is 3.5, not 3.

Otherwise good analysis.

RogueJK
2022-04-25, 09:01 AM
Similarly, the average of 1d10 is 5.5, not 4.5. (So the Level 5 Warlock would be doing 19. The Level 20 at 42 is correct, though.)

That's a good example of how a Beast Barbarian's damage can be viable. You won't be the biggest damage dealer, but you will be contributing.

But it'd be a stretch to take it further and say that a Beast Barbarian is the damage equivalent of a Warlock. There are a number of other relevant variables that work in the Warlock's favor besides just raw base damage...

1) The Warlock has additional spell options, for AoE, control, summoning, etc. So they can do more than just shoot EBs.

2) The Warlock can do things with their EBs, like shoving/pulling, that can't be done with a standard Claw attack.

3) A Warlock can be effective against foes both close and far away, while the Beast Barbarian built around Claws is melee only.

4) While a Beast Barbarian could be buffed by a party member, that won't always be an option. Whereas the Warlock can self-buff. Even something basic like Hex pushes their EB damage above a Beast Barbarian's Claws.

J-H
2022-04-25, 09:18 AM
Yeah, the lack of sleep is showing. The Barbarian also has other options:

-Reckless attack, so less likely to miss
-Much better durability against weapon attacks, better Dex saves against some things, and the ability to resist dropping to 0
-Grappling/Shoving (shove prone, then claw twice?)
-More skills thanks to Tasha's
-Higher ground speed
-Mobility: Climb, swim, or jump. At 20th the bonus jump distance is 1d20+24 feet vertically or horizontally. Warlocks have to spend an invocation to get water breathing/swim, or climb, or Jump/Levitate.
-+2d12 smite PB/day, or force an enemy you hit to attack another
-Party buff +1d6 to everyone's damage (except you?) PB/day

These aren't 9th level spells, but they are pretty good and aren't as limited as spell slots tend to be.

If I got to play more than once in a blue moon I'd like to play a Beast Barbarian.

da newt
2022-04-25, 09:29 AM
Dhampir might be a fun race too - bite and spider climb.

RogueJK
2022-04-25, 09:37 AM
I've played a Lizardfolk Monk 1/Beast Barbarian 5 in a one-shot before. It was fun and thematic. (4x attacks at Level 6 made it easy to Grapple/Shove while still putting out damage.)

Similar racial bite attack to the Dhampir, doing a bit more damage and keying off STR instead of CON but having a lesser "empower" effect.

But Dhampir wouldn't pair as well with that Monk dip specifically, because unlike Lizardfolk/Tabaxi/Tortle/Minotaur, their bite attack doesn't include the language of being able to be used as an Unarmed Strike.

Plus a Dhampir's Bite wouldn't be able to benefit from Rage damage bonus, being CON-based not STR-based, so it'd be relegated for use when not Raging or for when you need to empower yourself while Raging.

Unoriginal
2022-04-25, 09:46 AM
Note that the Bite and Tail options for the Beast Barbarian are good in their own right. The Bite can let a wounded Barbarian stays in the fight far longer than otherwise, and the Tail improves the Barbarian's chances if they're taking on an opponent or a situation against whom the Barbarian's typical "hit me if you think you're tough enough" manner of fighting would be a bad idea.

Those are less commonly useful than the "one more attack" of the Claws, but having the option is great for the cases where the common won't cut it.

Psyren
2022-04-25, 09:56 AM
You can do fine without TWF cheese, anyway. (Wouldn't fly at my table)

With no items:
At 5th level you're attacking 3 times for 1d6+str+rage(2), so probably about 3d6+15 total damage, average 24. You beat out an Eldritch Blast Warlock (2d10+8, average 17) and are generally competitive with all but a few outlier builds (GWM/SS feats).
At 20th level with 24 strength, you're attacking 3 times for 1d6+7+4, or 3d6+33 total damage, average 42, with no items. An EB Warlock is doing 4d10+20, average 42. If you've pumped STR & CON, your naked AC is also 24, which is quite good.

You can also multiclass instead of going Barb 20. Rune Knight is particularly good here since the size increases let you grapple more effectively, and the extra ASIs + Indomitable + Extra Attack 2 + Action Surge are likely to trump the higher-level barbarian features like Brutal Critical. Bonus points if you're a MPMM shifter so you get more shifting uses to compensate for your lower rages/day. Barb 8/Fighter 12 feels like a decent split.


Note that the Bite and Tail options for the Beast Barbarian are good in their own right. The Bite can let a wounded Barbarian stays in the fight far longer than otherwise, and the Tail improves the Barbarian's chances if they're taking on an opponent or a situation against whom the Barbarian's typical "hit me if you think you're tough enough" manner of fighting would be a bad idea.

Those are less commonly useful than the "one more attack" of the Claws, but having the option is great for the cases where the common won't cut it.

These two are particularly nice if you're using weapons rather than being a pure natural attacker since they don't take up your hands.

Dr.Samurai
2022-04-25, 10:50 AM
I agree with assessment on Bite and Tail, with the caveat that there is no way to switch in the middle of combat unfortunately, so the Bite is not doing anything for your (apart from being a mode of attack) until you go below half. The tail is generally more useful throughout.

RogueJK
2022-04-25, 11:01 AM
I agree with assessment on Bite and Tail, with the caveat that there is no way to switch in the middle of combat unfortunately

Well, until Level 20. Then you have unlimited Rages, so you can do stuff like end your Claw Rage then fire up a Bite Rage the next round.

Zhorn
2022-04-25, 11:04 AM
I've found the bite is useful when you're grappling enemies to prevent them from getting to the casters. grapples an opponent in each hand, and you're still good for attacks with the bite.

Psyren
2022-04-25, 11:16 AM
I agree with assessment on Bite and Tail, with the caveat that there is no way to switch in the middle of combat unfortunately, so the Bite is not doing anything for your (apart from being a mode of attack) until you go below half. The tail is generally more useful throughout.


Well, until Level 20. Then you have unlimited Rages, so you can do stuff like end your Claw Rage then fire up a Bite Rage the next round.

Technically you don't have to wait until 20 for this, though it's certainly a costly use of your rages per day to do it before then.

ender241
2022-04-25, 11:29 AM
Technically you don't have to wait until 20 for this, though it's certainly a costly use of your rages per day to do it before then.

And either way it's a very inefficient use of your action economy. Two Bonus Actions just to switch. And you lose your BPS resistance in the meantime, so could end up taking more damage in the long run anyway. Seems like a situation where that would be worthwhile would be very rare.

RogueJK
2022-04-25, 11:30 AM
I don't think it would be overpowered to allow Beast Barbarians to change their natural weapon on the fly, after a certain level.

For example, the Stars Druid gets that ability at Level 10, with their Starry Forms. At the start of each turn, they get to choose (no action) which Starry Form they're going to use that round.

Dr.Samurai
2022-04-25, 11:32 AM
I agree with the above; I don't see why they shouldn't be able to switch round to round at some point.

Psyren
2022-04-25, 12:00 PM
And either way it's a very inefficient use of your action economy. Two Bonus Actions just to switch. And you lose your BPS resistance in the meantime, so could end up taking more damage in the long run anyway. Seems like a situation where that would be worthwhile would be very rare.

Agreed. Though I've always felt that Rage should be enterable as either a bonus action or an action, which while still costly would at least let you get "cycling" down to a single turn.


I agree with the above; I don't see why they shouldn't be able to switch round to round at some point.

You could argue that its like Wild Shape where resourceless shifting is similarly difficult to achieve until the capstone. With that said, I agree that would be a pretty cool and impactful ability to package alongside Infectious Fury or Call The Hunt.

MadBear
2022-04-25, 12:04 PM
Another option is to talk with the DM and see if they'd be willing to allow your character to make unarmed attacks that deal something small like 1d2 + strength damage. It's a big step down from people who use weapons, but it's something, that not only doesn't break the game, but helps make you feel more powerful whenever you rage by comparison.

The DM's guild also has a really cool class called the Pugilist that I've found is not only balanced, but is a fun melee brawler that is different from a monk.

Then again, I modify home games all the time to make them better for my players, because I find rules as written to be a worse way to play the game when a small change allows more fun at the table.

Psyren
2022-04-25, 12:08 PM
Another option is to talk with the DM and see if they'd be willing to allow your character to make unarmed attacks that deal something small like 1d2 + strength damage. It's a big step down from people who use weapons, but it's something, that not only doesn't break the game, but helps make you feel more powerful whenever you rage by comparison.

Rather than ask for homebrew I'd just pick a race with unarmed attacks that do more damage than this, e.g. Lizardfolk

MadBear
2022-04-25, 01:08 PM
Rather than ask for homebrew I'd just pick a race with unarmed attacks that do more damage than this, e.g. Lizardfolk

depends on what they're looking for. If they want to play a halfling, homebrew's the only way to go. Otherwise I agree (I think they said they wanted to play a small race).

RogueJK
2022-04-25, 01:17 PM
With the new racial changes in MPMotM, a couple of the natural weapon races now have the option of being Small, including Tabaxis and Tortles.

Psyren
2022-04-25, 01:26 PM
With the new racial changes in MPMotM, a couple of the natural weapon races now have the option of being Small, including Tabaxis and Tortles.

Yeah that, beat me to it.

Another approach is to just give everyone a free feat at level 1. The player can then spend it on Tavern Brawler (1d4+Str unarmed strikes) or Fighting Initiate: Unarmed Fighting Style (1d6+Str unarmed strikes.)

MadBear
2022-04-25, 01:47 PM
Yeah that, beat me to it.

Another approach is to just give everyone a free feat at level 1. The player can then spend it on Tavern Brawler (1d4+Str unarmed strikes) or Fighting Initiate: Unarmed Fighting Style (1d6+Str unarmed strikes.)

that's actually what I do in my games. I have a list of feats that are interesting but almost never taken due to being perceived as being low power that each player can take at level 1. It works out great, because it creates more interesting characters.