Immolation: Does it have any good or creative uses, or am I doomed to hate loving it?

[Corran]

Been searching for ideas.

Apparently it used to work well with polymorph (ie reduce target's hp by polymorphing it, then someone else casts immolation to reduce it to 0 and turn it to ash), but the Xanathar's version changed it to turn enemies to ash only on a kill, as opposed to when dropping them to 0 hp. It was a bit of an overkill if you ask me, but at least it would have some good niche uses. Anyway, that's out I guess.

It has some very situational utility of being able to dispose of a body quickly, or to make it harder for someone to get brought back from the dead, though it's hardly the only way to accomplish these things and in the end something like that is too situational anyway.

I guess lihgting a target you can see within 90' has some niche useful applications, particularly against a sea monster that uses its environment for sudden strikers before retrating back to beneath the waves (so good predatory instincts but not intelligent). Probably useful for a naval campaign. Not sure how well you would be able to exploit this while it lasted, at least against anything with basic intelligence, though again something like this is too situational for my taste.

It seems the best way to use this spell is against a big sack of hp, ideally with high AC and low DEX saves, and try to pair it with aything that bestoes disadvantage on DEX saves (stuns, paralysis, restraining, or something like a bestow curse). Hopefully making it last long enough and have the hp damage matter if the DEX save is the target's big weakness when it comes to hp reduction. Is that the best we can do?

[Warder]

I think any use for it is going to be edge cases since it has almost everything stacked against it. Very poor damage, common damage resist type, requires concentration... even your sea monster edge case is going to be very limited since being submerged gives resistance to fire damage.

Its only real advantage is that it only requires a verbal component, so it has some possibility for Silent Spell shenanigans - which admittedly is pretty cool.

[Corran]

I think any use for it is going to be edge cases since it has almost everything stacked against it. Very poor damage, common damage resist type, requires concentration... even your sea monster edge case is going to be very limited since being submerged gives resistance to fire damage.

Its only real advantage is that it only requires a verbal component, so it has some possibility for Silent Spell shenanigans - which admittedly is pretty cool.
Yeah, this describes pretty well how I think of it. Indeed it has almost everything against it. I find it very difficult to justify it on a PC. It is kind of nice to put low/medium level pc's against it, since it's not too powerful but at the same time it creates an increased sense of danger. Only time I've really used it was to model some magic traps around it (though I had tweeked the damage to be lower than what the spell does), which was enough to give my players enough thought as to whether exploring the town's long abandoned wizard's tower was a good idea or not (they did, and nobody ended up dead, though learning that the fiery traps turned you to ash scared them a lot and gave them pause, which was what I wanted).

[strangebloke]

It's not great, no, but if you're confident that the enemy will fail DEX saves consistently (and a lot of high level enemies have surprisingly bad DEX saves. Storm Giant Quintessant has only a +2 DEX save despite literally being made of wind) you can tag an enemy with it and get reasonably solid single target damage for several turns. The real nice thing here is that its almost completely unconditional if they keep failing saves, so in a combat-as-war scenario its theoretically possible that you cast this spell and then run away for ten turns while the enemy slowly burns to death.

But yes that's a pretty big 'if.' Even a caster with DC 17 against an enemy with a +0 will usually still see this fail after 3-4 turns, assuming it even sticks in the first place.

Casters aren't super good at single target damage normally, that's just how it is. Its the martial's one thing (except when those 'martials' are also full casters and/or the casters know what they're doing)

[Corran]

It's not great, no, but if you're confident that the enemy will fail DEX saves consistently (and a lot of high level enemies have surprisingly bad DEX saves. Storm Giant Quintessant has only a +2 DEX save despite literally being made of wind) you can tag an enemy with it and get reasonably solid single target damage for several turns. The real nice thing here is that its almost completely unconditional if they keep failing saves, so in a combat-as-war scenario its theoretically possible that you cast this spell and then run away for ten turns while the enemy slowly burns to death.

But yes that's a pretty big 'if.' Even a caster with DC 17 against an enemy with a +0 will usually still see this fail after 3-4 turns, assuming it even sticks in the first place.

Casters aren't super good at single target damage normally, that's just how it is. Its the martial's one thing (except when those 'martials' are also full casters and/or the casters know what they're doing)
Hmm, you make a good point. Time runs in favor of this spell if the chances of the enemy failing the save are in your favor (even before you rig them somehow). So it then becomes a question about how to win time in an effective manner. Using and and then running away is one option, but there are several spells (summoning comes to mind) that can work (and in most cases better than immolation; unless you want to take someone out specifically), and then there are ranged attacks, so a 5th level slot used with immolation could add to the above but it's a bit on the expensive side for my taste. If it's your only option then I guess this makes it better, and the same would hold true if a (wounded) enemy was the one doing the fleeing and you maage to get one to stick before they run too far away.

I am thinking it has to be long fights. You restrain something dangerous enough to warrant the use of your 5th level slot if it has a good chance of doing 3 digit damage figures, ad you do that because otherwise focusing on the restrained target is not a good option for the party's ranged attackers because they have their hands full with something else. And it must be an encounter that will last long enough for immolation to have the time to deal good enough damage as expected, and at the same time you must be out of resources that would otherwise neutralize the target more reliably and long enough without thus needing to commit immolation to causing damage to an enemy you could almost surely face alone when everything else drops dead. Meh. It's so niche that I dont even want to bother with figuring out good restraining (or even look for short duration petrification) methods. I guess it has a niche for killing hydras if your ranged dpr didnt make it to the session.

[Kane0]

Yeah its one of those spells that felt really cool but was underwhelming to actually use, so i modified it:

Immolation
5th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: None
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Flames wreathe one creature you can see within range. For the duration of the spell the target sheds bright light in a 30 foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet. At the start of each of its turns the target must make a Dexterity saving throw, taking 40 fire damage on a failed save or 20 on a successful one. These magical flames cannot be extinguished through nonmagical means. If damage from this spell reduces a target to 0 hit points, the target is turned to ash.
This spell ends once it has dealt a total of 100 fire damage.

Its still got the same constraints of single target, concentration, Dex save and common damage type but at least the damage output is more respectable and reliable, operating similarly to Guardian of Faith.

[The_Jette]

If you're fighting a high CR enemy and you have Silvery Barbs, you could almost guarantee it fails its save by hitting it with disadvantage, with the added bonus of giving one of your party members (a rogue, possibly) the benefit of advantage on their next attack. I don't see it as a particularly effective spell, but neither is it necessarily bad. But, it's the rare damage dealing spell that can be used creatively, anyways. It's just damage.

[Corran]

It's not great, no, but if you're confident that the enemy will fail DEX saves consistently (and a lot of high level enemies have surprisingly bad DEX saves. Storm Giant Quintessant has only a +2 DEX save despite literally being made of wind) you can tag an enemy with it and get reasonably solid single target damage for several turns. The real nice thing here is that its almost completely unconditional if they keep failing saves, so in a combat-as-war scenario its theoretically possible that you cast this spell and then run away for ten turns while the enemy slowly burns to death.

But yes that's a pretty big 'if.' Even a caster with DC 17 against an enemy with a +0 will usually still see this fail after 3-4 turns, assuming it even sticks in the first place.

Casters aren't super good at single target damage normally, that's just how it is. Its the martial's one thing (except when those 'martials' are also full casters and/or the casters know what they're doing)
Hmm, so, if you have good base chances for the enemy to fail the saving throw(s), and you can rig them even further with something cheap, given time you might be able to do some pretty good damage on average. Casting it and fleeing is an option, fleeing wounded enemies might be another, but unless you are operating (as a party) with very limited resources that include immolation, it's going to be hard to imagine that spending a 5th level slot for immolation is going to be too effective. There are better spells at causing mayhem and continue working with you gone, there are better ways to hurt enemies while fleeing (ranged attacks dont cost a 5th level slot), there are better ways dealing with fleeing enemies. It can work but usually there will be a better options. There probably have to be a very specific scenario for this spell to start making sense. Maybe restraining something dangerous and you use immolation on it and you have good chances at having both effects stick for a considerable amount of time. While in an encounter that will take a long time to finish. And your ranged dps are busy with other things so it makes sense to use immolation against the restrained danerous target? Maybe there is some creature with some petrification ability with a short duration that you can get as a familiar or planar bind it and use immolation to combo with it if it ever sticks. When I try to think of a niche scenario that would make good use of the spell is probably the time to quit thinking about it. Decreasing the save chance is doable, but giving it the time to build up its damage is problematic even if you can expect a good amount of it at the end of the duration. I keep thinking of a prankster warlock, with a very bad sense of humor that is. Using this to ware down enemies wouldn't be so bad if you could do it with pact slots I guess (against certain targets it might be more impactful than just spamming demons or using synaptic static before running away), but alas, it's not a warlock spell.


Yeah its one of those spells that felt really cool but was underwhelming to actually use, so i modified it:

Immolation
5th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: None
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Flames wreathe one creature you can see within range. For the duration of the spell the target sheds bright light in a 30 foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet. At the start of each of its turns the target must make a Dexterity saving throw, taking 40 fire damage on a failed save or 20 on a successful one. These magical flames cannot be extinguished through nonmagical means. If damage from this spell reduces a target to 0 hit points, the target is turned to ash.
This spell ends once it has dealt a total of 100 fire damage.

Its still got the same constraints of single target, concentration, Dex save and common damage type but at least the damage output is more respectable and reliable, operating similarly to Guardian of Faith.
Certainly it's far easier to justify picking it and using it this way. Off the top of my head, I'd go in a different direction. Instead of just making it a better single target spell, I'd probably allow it to spread the damage to different targets. Like, it's funny (in a sadistic kind of way) how it says that the fire cannot be extinguished by non magical means, if you have the fire jump to creatures next to the one being inflicted. Imagine trying to put the fire out on someone and instead of doing that you are no on fire too. I think there was some spell in 3e that did that, but I dont remember what it was called. I'd probably allow objects to be affected too, so for one minute you get to burn something, but that's neither here not there.


If you're fighting a high CR enemy and you have Silvery Barbs, you could almost guarantee it fails its save by hitting it with disadvantage, with the added bonus of giving one of your party members (a rogue, possibly) the benefit of advantage on their next attack. I don't see it as a particularly effective spell, but neither is it necessarily bad. But, it's the rare damage dealing spell that can be used creatively, anyways. It's just damage.
Hmm, silvery barbs would be useful if you use it to undo bad luck on the dice, assuming the chance the enemy has to save are pretty small. Could combo well with it under the right circumstances. It's just that narrowing down these right circumstances is kind of trying to figure out the problem to which you want to apply the solution that you have in mind.

[strangebloke]

Hmm, so, if you have good base chances for the enemy to fail the saving throw(s), and you can rig them even further with something cheap, given time you might be able to do some pretty good damage on average. Casting it and fleeing is an option, fleeing wounded enemies might be another, but unless you are operating (as a party) with very limited resources that include immolation, it's going to be hard to imagine that spending a 5th level slot for immolation is going to be too effective. There are better spells at causing mayhem and continue working with you gone, there are better ways to hurt enemies while fleeing (ranged attacks dont cost a 5th level slot), there are better ways dealing with fleeing enemies. It can work but usually there will be a better options. There probably have to be a very specific scenario for this spell to start making sense. Maybe restraining something dangerous and you use immolation on it and you have good chances at having both effects stick for a considerable amount of time. While in an encounter that will take a long time to finish. And your ranged dps are busy with other things so it makes sense to use immolation against the restrained danerous target? Maybe there is some creature with some petrification ability with a short duration that you can get as a familiar or planar bind it and use immolation to combo with it if it ever sticks. When I try to think of a niche scenario that would make good use of the spell is probably the time to quit thinking about it. Decreasing the save chance is doable, but giving it the time to build up its damage is problematic even if you can expect a good amount of it at the end of the duration. I keep thinking of a prankster warlock, with a very bad sense of humor that is. Using this to ware down enemies wouldn't be so bad if you could do it with pact slots I guess (against certain targets it might be more impactful than just spamming demons or using synaptic static before running away), but alas, it's not a warlock spell.


Certainly it's far easier to justify picking it and using it this way. Off the top of my head, I'd go in a different direction. Instead of just making it a better single target spell, I'd probably allow it to spread the damage to different targets. Like, it's funny (in a sadistic kind of way) how it says that the fire cannot be extinguished by non magical means, if you have the fire jump to creatures next to the one being inflicted. Imagine trying to put the fire out on someone and instead of doing that you are no on fire too. I think there was some spell in 3e that did that, but I dont remember what it was called. I'd probably allow objects to be affected too, so for one minute you get to burn something, but that's neither here not there.

Yeah, the way I saw it used was with a sorcerer who used Telekinesis as their concentration spell, then quickened DEX save spells on people they restrained. Disintegrate was the favorite for obvious reasons, but he did hold down a target for the other caster's immolation once. Constant disadvantage helps a lot.

The more efficient way of making this work would be to slam someone with synaptic static before casting. Synaptic Static is nuts by itself, but it can turn difficult saves into almost impossible saves.

Or silvery barbs, but that's just silvery barbs being nonsense, lol.

[Kane0]

Certainly it's far easier to justify picking it and using it this way. Off the top of my head, I'd go in a different direction. Instead of just making it a better single target spell, I'd probably allow it to spread the damage to different targets. Like, it's funny (in a sadistic kind of way) how it says that the fire cannot be extinguished by non magical means, if you have the fire jump to creatures next to the one being inflicted. Imagine trying to put the fire out on someone and instead of doing that you are no on fire too. I think there was some spell in 3e that did that, but I dont remember what it was called. I'd probably allow objects to be affected too, so for one minute you get to burn something, but that's neither here not there.


Knowing the way 3e named things probably something like 'Contagious Flame', though I don't recall off the top of my head.

Edit: and if your strategy is to just light someone up and run away, just use Heat Metal for that?

[ImproperJustice]

Use it when the giant grapples you to set it on fire.
Or anyone for that matter.
They burn, you don’t get hurt.

Good in hostage negotiations.

Unhand the child! Ah never mind: Draconis!
Villain burns, kid is fine….

Use on a downed or weakened foe to ensure they don’t come back, like a low grade power word kill.

Silent Spell chaos.

Can be doing other stuff with your hands and still need to toast something.

Anything with a low dex save or restrained is in trouble.

Twin spell it?

I ran a 4 element themed sorc a long time ago, and remember using it pretty frequently against the giants in the aptly named against the giants campaign.
Saw some use in Curse of Strahd too against some hags using kids as hostages.

[Segev]

I'm having trouble thinking of/finding good spells for comparison; would it be out of line to ask the hivemind here to lay out some other 5th level spells and their damage amounts? 8d6 sounds like a lot, though the only comparison I can think of is fireball, which is 8d6 to an area at 3rd level. So, maybe immolation would be better moved down to 3rd level?

[strangebloke]

I'm having trouble thinking of/finding good spells for comparison; would it be out of line to ask the hivemind here to lay out some other 5th level spells and their damage amounts? 8d6 sounds like a lot, though the only comparison I can think of is fireball, which is 8d6 to an area at 3rd level. So, maybe immolation would be better moved down to 3rd level?

Synaptic static deals similar damage on an aoe but also debuffs saves. Cone of cold deals slightly more damage. But these are both aoes.

Immolation would not be op at 3rd level, but fireball shouldn't be a normal point of comparison, and single target damage shouldn't be a casters main niche.

4th level is fine