PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Contemplating Sharpshooter and Cover



PhoenixPhyre
2022-04-24, 07:24 PM
Cover is great. Even 1/2 cover provides a significant element of counter-play vs ranged attacks. And then along comes the twins Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter. +2 ATK is more powerful, on average, than +2 damage (ie dueling), and when added onto a more mobile, easier-to-defend base (most monsters being exclusively or nearly exclusively melee), that difference is magnified. Now cover from other creatures would make a difference, basically causing you to break even. Until you add in Sharpshooter, which negates 1/2 cover and reduces 3/4 cover to 1/2 cover...which AFS then compensates for. So now you're firing at anything (that doesn't have full cover, which hurts everyone) at par at worst, +2 (relative to someone with the same modifiers) most of the time. And if they don't have 3/4 cover, your -5/+10 is really only a -3/+10. Yeah. No bueno (relative to melee options).

So here is a rough thought on making the pieces still work while reducing the distortionary effects.

1. Use the "Hitting Cover" alternate option (DMG chapter 9) for all attacks (including reach weapons and spell attacks):

First, determine whether the attack roll would have hit the protected target without the cover. If the attack roll falls within a range low enough to miss the target but high enough to strike the target if there had been no cover, the object used for cover is struck. If a creature is providing cover for the missed creature and the attack roll exceeds the AC of the covering creature, the covering creature is hit.

2. Change the "ignore cover" bullet point of SS to say that it instead ensures you can't hit an ally who is providing cover. This compensates for step 1 without giving any advantage when cover isn't in play.

3. Alter AFS to read (instead of its current effects)

When wielding a bow, your damage die increases by one size. While wielding a crossbow, you ignore the loading property.

4. Alter CBE's normal ignoring loading property to say that you do not need a free hand to reload it (while still being limited to 1 attack per turn unless AFS) and the bonus action attack bullet point to say that you can use TWF with hand crossbows (either sword + HCB or 2x HCB) instead of getting a free bonus action attack. This is really more about thematics (dual hand crossbows or sword and crossbow, not "fanning a hand crossbow shenanigans, plus not getting the modifier by default).

That way, half and 3/4 cover still have bite. Sure, if you take SS you'll never hit your ally, but you're still 2 or 5 ATK down from the cover[1], which makes the -5/+10 a real choice instead of basically a no-brainer. And AFS now is weaker than the melee ones (roughly +1 DPR for bow and making bows == crossbows), which makes sense because you still have all the benefits of being at range.

This also puts a substantial crimp into EB spam, because now they have to worry about hitting cover. As well as reach melee (although only slightly, because cover is less common against such attacks IMX).

What have I missed in this?

[1] instead of being +2 (AFS) against half-cover and flat against 3/4 cover.

Kane0
2022-04-24, 10:35 PM
1. Use the "Hitting Cover" alternate option (DMG chapter 9) for all attacks (including reach weapons and spell attacks):

2. Change the "ignore cover" bullet point of SS to say that it instead ensures you can't hit an ally who is providing cover. This compensates for step 1 without giving any advantage when cover isn't in play.

3. Alter AFS to read (instead of its current effects)

4. Alter CBE's normal ignoring loading property to say that you do not need a free hand to reload it (while still being limited to 1 attack per turn unless AFS) and the bonus action attack bullet point to say that you can use TWF with hand crossbows (either sword + HCB or 2x HCB) instead of getting a free bonus action attack. This is really more about thematics (dual hand crossbows or sword and crossbow, not "fanning a hand crossbow shenanigans, plus not getting the modifier by default).



I do like using the hitting cover rules, however do keep in mind it does make attack roll spells just that little bit worse when they already arent great (although scorching ray on your average box/barrel does have a nice side effect of removing that cover), since they now carry a friendly fire hazard.

I like your SS adjustment to interact with the hitting cover rules, seems a fair change

Increasing the damage die by 1 step really kinda sucks, thats on the weak end of styles (like Great weapon and protection), and styles generally only do one thing. I think i prefer just leaving it as is, or if you're like me and just have to tinker with everything perhaps limit the +2 to hit to within short rang only.

The changes regarding loading appears to be a second thing you're tackling here, I can drop my altered feats here to compare against?

Crossbow Expert:
- You ignore the loading quality of ranged weapons and can load one handed ranged weapons even if you are holding a weapon or shield in your other hand.
- Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls
- You are able to use one handed ranged weapons when Two Weapon Fighting

Sharpshooter:
- When making ranged attacks you treat 3/4 cover as 1/2 cover, and 1/2 cover as no cover
- You double the short range of any ranged weapon attacks you make, and the range of any ranged spell attacks you make
- When you roll damage for a ranged attack, you can re-roll one of the attack’s damage dice, and you must use the new roll.

Note that this version of Sharpshooter also subsumes Spell Sniper.

PhoenixPhyre
2022-04-24, 10:57 PM
I do like using the hitting cover rules, however do keep in mind it does make attack roll spells just that little bit worse when they already arent great (although scorching ray on your average box/barrel does have a nice side effect of removing that cover), since they now carry a friendly fire hazard.

I like your SS adjustment to interact with the hitting cover rules, seems a fair change

Increasing the damage die by 1 step really kinda sucks, thats on the weak end of styles (like Great weapon and protection), and styles generally only do one thing. I think i prefer just leaving it as is, or if you're like me and just have to tinker with everything perhaps limit the +2 to hit to within short rang only.

The changes regarding loading appears to be a second thing you're tackling here, I can drop my altered feats here to compare against?

Crossbow Expert:
- You ignore the loading quality of ranged weapons and can load one handed ranged weapons even if you are holding a weapon or shield in your other hand.
- Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls
- You are able to use one handed ranged weapons when Two Weapon Fighting

Sharpshooter:
- When making ranged attacks you treat 3/4 cover as 1/2 cover, and 1/2 cover as no cover
- You double the short range of any ranged weapon attacks you make, and the range of any ranged spell attacks you make
- When you roll damage for a ranged attack, you can re-roll one of the attack’s damage dice, and you must use the new roll.

Note that this version of Sharpshooter also subsumes Spell Sniper.

I specifically do not want any ability to ignore cover or increase attack. Because those are so powerful of effects that they completely distort the calculus. So the primary motivation here is to remove all +X to attack effects from class features and feature-adjacent materials. If I could, I'd remove them from items as well. Static, stacking bonuses to hit (or static DC increases) are bad for the game in so many ways. And ignoring cover is a static bonus to hit that removes counterplay. So dropping it (and the +2 ATK on the fighting style) is the prime requisite of any overhaul in my mind.

And changing the loading property/changing the damage die of bows is to equalize crossbows and bows. That lets you get away with using either or both, without needing a feat. Personally, I prefer fighting styles to be small things. Nice-to-haves, not "if you don't have this, you suck with your weapon" gatekeeping. And most of them are pretty small--+1 AC. GWF's relatively small effect. Only dueling and archery are big. And dueling specifically takes something that's lower on damage and moves it up to something decent. Bows, IMO, should never do as much damage as melee weapons; that's the tradeoff for being at range. Hence moving a longbow up to a heavy crossbow == a d10 weapon seems fair.

Changing CBE became necessary because of the changes to loading (which takes away a bullet point there). Plus the changing of hand crossbows is something I've wanted to do because the current way is janky and unthematic in my mind.

I'm sure this idea needs a bunch more smoothing out though.

Kane0
2022-04-25, 12:51 AM
Ah alright then, hows about this:

- DMG Hitting cover enabled
- Archery fighting style ignores disadvantage to hit through strong winds with ranged weapon attacks (which coincidentally also helps with thrown weapons)
- Replace ignoring cover from Sharpshooter and Spell Sniper with not hitting an ally unintentionally

Minimal changes, the integrity of cover is maintained and no static bonuses. Fighting style is a nice to have, no damage boosts to keep ranged below melee, and theres still room to tinker with -5/+10, TWF and Loading/ammunition traits of weapons as desired.