deleted

[wefoij123]

Don't need this answered anymore so deleted.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You lose your racial abilities depending on your shape when polymorphed‚ so a changeling loses Minor Change Shape.
Disguise Self isn't enough to trigger Assume Supernatural Ability‚ so Minor Change Shape isn't either.

There are probably other issues‚ but those are the most obvious.

[Kitsuneymg]

Well minor change shape isn’t polymorph self. You could rule it’s similar enough to allow assume supernatural ability if you want, but you don’t have to. Polymorph self is a 7th level ability and minor change shape isn’t. I’m going off memory here, but PS changes your type and MCS does not. It’s enough that I would rule them non-similar.

Do you want arguments against this? Or are you just one of those “it must be technically correct or I won’t allow it regardless of game impact” types?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I think this is overwhelming evidence that Minor Change Shape does in fact let you assume the form of creatures with the same body type as yourself especially since I could not find one rule that said otherwise. I mean we have rule text saying Disguise Self "alters your form" and is in the same group as alter self, polymorph, and shape change.

Two things about that:
- "This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell." The changeling's ability does indeed alter your form, I never said the opposite. It's just that it only alters your skin, facial features and size. You change your form, you don't actually take the creature's. If you did, you would gain its physical abilities and whatnot.
- Assume Supernatural Ability states that you have to take the creature's form with a "polymorph self spell or a similar effect". A polymorph spell changes your stats and subtypesto match the target creature. Minor Change Shape absolutely does not.

Now, you can rule for your game that Disguise Self is enough to apply Assume Supernatural Ability. If you know your players and know that they won't abuse it, no problem. But also note that this allows any changeling, from level 1, to access, without even going into any Polymorph shenanigans, at least a wish (zodar, definitely a Medium-sized creature with humanoid shape), or a dusk giant's ability to grow from eating other creatures, or a tulani's ability to be basically unaffected by anything Evil creatures throw at them, or a barlgura's at-will greater teleportation, or a Quarut's SR 28, or an ethergaunt's spell immunity, or an ethergaunt's dominate monster 3/day, or an ethergaunt's material jaunt (ethergaunts do have a lot of good supernatural abilities), or... you know.... Boccob's avatar's Alter Reality. That's what happens when you allow Assume Supernatural Ability on something that has neither a Hit Dice limit nor a "no unique creature" clause. (also, with Chameleon, you can change which ability you want each day. So that's fun)

Edit: other fun things: Rak'Shasa Ak'chazar for 9 Turn attempts with equivalent cleric level 20, a Leonal's Holy Word roar, a Protean Scourge's Split ability (if you want to destroy the universe), or an entropic reaper's entropic blade, because why be a human when you can reap people's soul from their body?

[Doctor Despair]

The only reason Assume Supernatural Ability doesn't work by RAW without DM fiat is because Minor Change Shape isn't, to most reasonable readings, changing your form "through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect." If it was enough just to change your form, they wouldn't have even included the polymorph self reference.

However, Metamorphic Transfer lacks that language.


Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any...

You can only use the feat 3x/day, but you can mix and match what ability you use the charges for by changing your shape again, so it's still pretty potent for a Changeing that can change their form at will with no HD limit

[Crake]

Minor Change Shape doesn't allow you to turn into specific creatures, it merely allows you to look like them. If you make yourself look like a catfolk for example, you still don't have claw attacks, becuase you don't have real claws, and if you made yourself look like a triton, you wouldn't be able to breathe water, because you don't have real gils.

Since you're just changing your appearance, it wouldn't be enough to actually trigger assume supernatural ability.

A lot of people trying to cheese it try to point to racial emulation, however the racial emulation feat itself is a dysfunction, because nowhere in Minor Change Shape does it say anything about assuming specific forms, only that you can change your appearance within the constraints of the Disguise Self spell, and that these changes are physical transmutation effects rather than illusory effects.


Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.

Likewise, Disguise Self says nothing about specific forms, only changing your appearance:


You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.

If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

[Doctor Despair]

Minor Change Shape doesn't allow you to turn into specific creatures, it merely allows you to look like them. If you make yourself look like a catfolk for example, you still don't have claw attacks, becuase you don't have real claws, and if you made yourself look like a triton, you wouldn't be able to breathe water, because you don't have real gils.

Since you're just changing your appearance, it wouldn't be enough to actually trigger assume supernatural ability.

A lot of people trying to cheese it try to point to racial emulation, however the racial emulation feat itself is a dysfunction, because nowhere in Minor Change Shape does it say anything about assuming specific forms, only that you can change your appearance within the constraints of the Disguise Self spell, and that these changes are physical transmutation effects rather than illusory effects.



Likewise, Disguise Self says nothing about specific forms, only changing your appearance:

I believe you did adopt the position that Racial Emulation does literally nothing in the previous thread, so congrats for internal consistency. I still find it an unconvincing argument, given actual rules text in Racial Emulation states you are assuming their form, and a DM would be creating dysfunction where there is literally no need for one by avoiding a commonsense reading that the feat does what it says. However, I agree that it is internally consistent to say that if Metamorphic Transfer doesn't work, then neither does Racial Emulation.

[icefractal]

This came up in the Warforged components thread, but long story short - Minor Change Shape is deceptively named. It doesn't work at all like the Change Shape ability which some monsters have.

Change Shape has a target - a specific creature or type of creature. It makes you "into" that creature, to a greater or lesser extent. Disguise Self, which Minor Change Shape is based on, doesn't do any of that:

As mentioned, the Changeling's ability mentions Disguise Self as its basis though. That makes things unclear, because since Disguise Self doesn't normally change your type (or any other stats), it's not written in terms of having a "target". It doesn't even say you "look like a different race", it just says you look "different". For example, you could use Disguise Self to look like a purple-skinned humanoid with huge elf ears, solid green eyes with dollar-signs for pupils, and three horns, despite no such race existing in the setting.

...

But Disguise Self isn't written that way! You don't cast "Disguise Self: Elf" or "Disguise Self: Legolas", you simply cast Disguise Self and choose to have a build, face, hair, ears, etc that resemble Legolas. And you could just as easily look like Legolas except with goat eyes, for example.

So in the OP you mention that MCS lets you assume the form of something "with the same body type". Well while "cannot change your body type" is true, that's not the only restriction that Disguise Self has. Here's what it can do:
* 1 foot shorter or taller
* Thin, fat, or in between
* Cannot change your body type
* Add or obscure a minor feature
* Look like an entirely different person

Does being "thin" include being literally skeletal? Are the differences something that fall under "minor feature"? Personally speaking, no, but YMMV.

[ngilop]

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.

SO it is disguise self. which is as follows

Disguise Self
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Trickery 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.
A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.

So like.. it doesn't change your type. Not to mention the spell only lets you grow or shrink to up to 1 foot, which is not enough for you to change your size, let alone 2 sizes.

Therefore, the combo dude man is attempting to do falls apart from the very first step.

[Zombimode]

So when you say to utilize Assume Supernatural Ability, you must also need to inherit Mundane Movement Capabilities, Natural Armor, and Natural Weapons, I can't help but disagree. In my opinion it is extremely silly to say that the feat requires you to inherit natural armor, weapons, and mundane movement in order to function.

But those effects are exactly those that result from actually having the assumed form. In contrast to just looking the part. Since Polymorph does this, and is actually what Polymorph is about in the first place, any effect that only provides the appearance of something can't be similar to Polymorph.

[Endarire]

As GM, how much do you want this trick to work? What concerns do you have about the well being of your campaign, if any?

[icefractal]

The only effect Assume Supernatural Ability needs, the only effect needed to be "similar effect" to polymorph, is "assume a new form magically", which Minor Change Shape does.A big difference between MCS and all the others (including Change Shape, which again MCS is not the same as or even similar to) is that they all specify a target creature / type of creature, and MCS doesn't, it only specifies an appearance - which doesn't even have to correspond to an existing type of creature.

By that standard shouldn't Enlarge Person also count (I'm a giant now obviously), or a Wand of Wonder when it changes skin color?

[ciopo]

My internal rule is "if it's good enough for warshaper, it's good enough for ASF"

Now, changeling qualify for warshaper because of the shapechanger subtype.

Would minor change shape be enough?
To me, no. It is too limited. It's based on disguise self and the parameters of that can be summed up as "change the cosmetic details of your sheet : height, eye color, weight etc. But no more than (this)"

Would having the shapechanger subtype be enough to use ASF?

Here I say: maybe? If you can examine the target creatureand your shapechanging is flexible enough to ger to that form, I would allow it.

So on the OP : I would allow ASF of forms you can emulate with minor change shape. But they have to satisfy the minor change shape limits. I'm likely to say "no, you can't emulate that" the huge viper to boneyard, gut feeling I'd say "minor change shape is not strong enough to go from a meaty creature to piles of jointed skeletons"

[Crake]

Assuming the form of a creature just means you are assuming its appearance.

If you take this to be the case, then enjoy allowing changelings to shapechange into a Zodar at level 1 and getting free wishes at the start of the game.

I personally see the disfunction with racial emulation, since disguise self makes no mention of assuming forms, only changing your apearance. I see it more as an overworked writer using incorrect terminology rather than anything else.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I banned Zodars long ago as it broke Shapechange. And yes, I do believe this is legal. And in my opinion, Zodars are the only thing that makes changeling+assume supernatural ability borked. Without zodars there is not a single Su ability out there that can break the game. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I don't know what "break the game" really means to you, but really, you can do it all. There is an accessible (Su) ability for just any purpose. Greater teleportation at-will at level one isn't enough? Or mass free action save-or-lose (Hunefer) or Charm Monster (LeShay)? Infinite constitution with Enlarge person and shambling mound? The zovvut's user-friendly wightocalypse? The weirds' inpassable regeneration ? The ethereal doppelganger's ability to gain all abilities and memories of any creature (that one may be the worst actually)? And that's only because you banned the zodar, unique creatures and creatures gaining HD. The question isn't really how much it "breaks" the game (although a game where you can only throw mind-affecting-immune, death-immune, paralysis-immune creatures at your players lest they get disintegrated in the first round of combat, and only have your NPCs be level 10+ because they get mind-controlled otherwise seems pretty broken to me), the question is if it is balanced with what you can get at level 1 from investing your LA+0 class and one feat (not even counting your class level). And the answer to that question is a pretty definite no. There is nothing out there that reaches that level of versatility and strengh. But feel free to prove me wrong.

[remetagross]

While I'm nowhere near RAW-gifted enough to assess whether the trick being discussed is actually legal or not, I'd like to underline the fact the OP makes a good point in stressing the particular limitations of Assume Supernatural Ability. It is often assumed in these charop boards that the drawbacks of that feat are insignificant, or easily handled by the PC that incurs them. Actually, a Will save DC 19 is a serious business for a low-level character. Even a 4th-level Druid or a Cleric will fail that 50% of the time, assuming 18 Wis, a +2 Wis item and a Cloak of Resistance +1. A low-Will-save class would need to be level 12 to get that +8 bonus with a Cloak of Resistance +3 and 14 Wis. That's a significant portion of the lifetime of a PC where the feat is practically useless in combat situations.

Besides, the feat does not specify at which moment the save must be rolled: before or after the action is taken? An unfavourable reading would mean the PC's action is spent anyway in case the save is failed, which makes the feat a significantly dangerous option as there is a chance the PC just does nothing on its turn.

Finally, that -2 penalty to everything does not have a stated duration. The GM could well estimate it lasts for the complete encounter, it which case that means using the feat later during the fight gets even harder. And at low levels, a -2 penalty to everything makes a big difference, even for out-of-combat situations like skill checks.

All of this means this feat can only reliably used, in particular in combat situations, by medium to high-level PCs. Getting stuff like at-will Charm Monster is less scary at ECL 12 than at ECL 2, so that means the power level of this feat is less problematic than what appears at face value.

Besides, the action cost of the feat is not specified. Is acquiring the ability to use a single supernatural ability subsumed into the action cost of the ability itself? Like, I want to get the Breath Weapon of a Dragon, since the breath weapon is a standard-action use, I only take a standard action to try my Will save and actually produce the breath attack all at once? The feat does not specifically say so. The GM could well rule that, by default, the action cost of this feat is a standard action, as per the rule of all abilities whose activation time is not specified. So I take a standard action to simply gain the breath attack, and I need another standard action to actually produce the breath attack. That would significantly impede the combat use of that feat, and does not seem a particularly far-fetched read to me.

All of this to say that this feat, while having enormous potential (say, that at-will Greater Teleport is a completely non-combat ability and the PC can just take 20 on the Will save, etc.) does have, in my opinion, quite a lot of mitigating factors for an in-combat use that are not often mentioned when the feat is discussed, and wefoij123 makes a good point in reminding them.

[remetagross]

Alright, I could see it fly either way but your reading is very sensible. Having the player waste their action in case the Will save is failed adds a significant opportunity cost.

[ciopo]

1. You obtain the feat Assume Supernatural Ability: Breath Weapon.
The result is that you only get Su breath weapons from your forms. If you want a different Su ability, you need to grab a second Assume Supernatural Ability. Your choice cannot change except by PHBII's retraining rules or other feat retraining. It's like weapon focus. You choose one Su ability and you're stuck with it forever.


Minor contention : I've always read it as picking a supernatural ability of that one specific creature.

So, to me, using examples, it would be Assume supernatural ability(gold dragon :breath weapon) or Assume supernatural ability(doppleganger : change shape).

Knowing how to assume the change shape ability of a doppleganger does not mean you also automatically know how to use the change shape of a barghest.

At most I'd consider different age categories of one kind of dragon to be the same creature.

Or maybe a "assume supernatural ability (creature type : supernatural ability)", in staying with the change shape and doppelganger vs barghest above, the example would be Assume supernatural ability(monstrous humanoids : change shape). which is different from "outsiders : change shape"