New Spelljammer

[Melcar]

So, I found out a new spelljammer book was out for 5th… it mentions the astral sea. I thought spelljammers sailed between crystal spheres and not on the astral sea. Has this been retconned somehow?

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, I found out a new spelljammer book was out for 5th… it mentions the astral sea. I thought spelljammers sailed between crystal spheres and not on the astral sea. Has this been retconned somehow?

Well, parts of the lore are retconned with each edition, so that's no surprise if that has changed. But yes, the original spelljammer could not go between planes.

[Jervis]

So, I found out a new spelljammer book was out for 5th… it mentions the astral sea. I thought spelljammers sailed between crystal spheres and not on the astral sea. Has this been retconned somehow?

Yep, it’s a retcon. I use to own a spelljammer organized play server before I stepped down for life reasons so this hurts a bit to see, but oh well. It happens.

[ShurikVch]

The "Voidjammers!" article was published in Dragon #159, which is July 1990 - mere 8 months after the debut of Spelljammer
It was literally "Spelljammer, but in Astral"
This fact shows they planned to replace it all the way back then - and they finally did it in the 5E, except decided to leave the "Spelljammer" name


Well, parts of the lore are retconned with each edition, so that's no surprise if that has changed. But yes, the original spelljammer could not go between planes.

Yep, itÂ’s a retcon. I use to own a spelljammer organized play server before I stepped down for life reasons so this hurts a bit to see, but oh well. It happens.
Let alone the fact the Spelljammer's very premise was based on a retcon: before the Spelljammer, there were no "Crystal Spheres" - Oerth was a parallel reality world to our Earth, along with other parallels - like Aerth, Uerth, and Yarth (thus the names)
Rules for traveling between the parallel worlds were in the original Manual of the Planes:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/AD%26D_Manual_of_the_Planes.jpg

(By default, no ships were involved in the process...)

[Zanos]

So, I found out a new spelljammer book was out for 5th… it mentions the astral sea. I thought spelljammers sailed between crystal spheres and not on the astral sea. Has this been retconned somehow?
Virtually all 5e reboots were made without the input of the original creators and have been heavily retconned.

This specific question is also a retcon, yes.

[KillianHawkeye]

I mean, the astral plane was already known to connect to various other planes. And if you've already renamed the astral plane to be an astral sea, it makes sense that world traveling ships would sail across it, right?

[unseenmage]

I'm over here hoping that the phlogiston makes its way jn as a weather hazard or something at least.

Spelljammers without the phlo is like Dark Sun without the constant threat of being murdered by the very nature of the world itself.
Sure it's better for accessibility of new players and compatibility with other products/gameworlds but it loses its uniqueness to me.

I'm glad it's back. And I'm hopeful it's gonna be good. But I bet the fanged penguin merchants riding winged pigs won't be there and that bums me out a bit.

[afroakuma]

I'm glad it's back. And I'm hopeful it's gonna be good. But I bet the fanged penguin merchants riding winged pigs won't be there and that bums me out a bit.

But we need the dohwar!


The "Voidjammers!" article was published in Dragon #159, which is July 1990 - mere 8 months after the debut of Spelljammer
It was literally "Spelljammer, but in Astral"
This fact shows they planned to replace it all the way back then - and they finally did it in the 5E, except decided to leave the "Spelljammer" name

"Planned to replace" is a hell of an assertion. "Provided an option" would be more accurate.


Let alone the fact the Spelljammer's very premise was based on a retcon: before the Spelljammer, there were no "Crystal Spheres" - Oerth was a parallel reality world to our Earth, along with other parallels - like Aerth, Uerth, and Yarth (thus the names)

...except they're two different things. Spelljammer is about flying between different campaign settings/planets on the same Material Plane. The parallel worlds you describe are alternate Material Planes. They aren't reachable via spelljamming; they are only reachable via planar travel, just as they were in the Manual of the Planes.

[ShurikVch]

"Planned to replace" is a hell of an assertion. "Provided an option" would be more accurate.
But don't you agree - to have both Spelljammers and Voidjammers in the same campaign would be kinda weird: not just they're doing the same thing (moving stuff from world to world), but in the same way too (a ship powered by a mage, magic items, or strange gnomish inventions)
Thus - even if it was the "option" - it was the "option to replace"; and the fact they actually did it in the 5E may be the indication they planned to do it all along
At the same time, this replacement is nipping in the bud a lot (if not all) of wackier stuff of the Spelljammer, which was disliked by a number of people:
"Air envelopes"? No need - it's the Astral, it have perfectly breathable air, thank you very much.
Handwaved gravity? Nope, it's the Astral - it have no gravity!
Outdated incorrect cosmology shoehorned in to allow spelljamming? Nu-huh, - it's the Astral: science have no info about it!
Giffs, space swines, and various other creatures which aren't everybody's cup of tea? It's the Astral - most of those creatures have no business being there...

...except they're two different things. Spelljammer is about flying between different campaign settings/planets on the same Material Plane. The parallel worlds you describe are alternate Material Planes. They aren't reachable via spelljamming; they are only reachable via planar travel, just as they were in the Manual of the Planes.
Let me get it right: are you telling there are two separate Oerths - "different planet" Oerth and "alternate world" Oerth? And they both have their own Castle Greyhawk, Bandit Kingdoms, Iuz, Bigby, etc? Are you serious?!
But, if it's not what you wanted to say, - then what is the meaning of this?

[Zanos]

Spelljammer having weird space stuff was half the point. You can already transit the Astral plane without a new setting manual, and "astral plane ship" is a lot less interesting than a magic space ship for similar reasons.

Saying they always planned for this is complete speculation, the people who wrote spelljammer and the people who wrote that dragon magazine almost certainly do not work at or for Wizards anymore.

[afroakuma]

But don't you agree

I do not agree.


Thus - even if it was the "option" - it was the "option to replace"; and the fact they actually did it in the 5E may be the indication they planned to do it all along

Given that this presumes a number of things, including plans for reviving Spelljammer as a setting, dating back two huge corporate shifts and three editions, on the basis of a third-party writer's article in Dragon Magazine from 30 years ago which itself was presenting an option intended for 1st Edition, during the run of 2nd... I would suggest this article is a very poor basis on which to structure the notion of a multi-decade plan to replace the Ptolemaic space concept, especially given their total lack of need to run with it in the first place if they didn't care for it.


At the same time, this replacement is nipping in the bud a lot (if not all) of wackier stuff of the Spelljammer, which was disliked by a number of people

But not all people. Very much not all people. I find it particularly odd that you listed giff as a problem, when they're one of the most well-liked things from the setting.


Let me get it right: are you telling there are two separate Oerths - "different planet" Oerth and "alternate world" Oerth? And they both have their own Castle Greyhawk, Bandit Kingdoms, Iuz, Bigby, etc? Are you serious?!

Oh there are undoubtedly several of those, too, but no; what I meant was that Oerth is on the Prime Material Plane, while Aerth, Uerth, Yarth, etc. are on alternate Material Planes. None are reachable via spelljamming.

In any event, you're welcome to your theory, but as far as I'm concerned the idea that this was "always the plan" is balloonjuice.

[MinimanMidget]

At the same time, this replacement is nipping in the bud a lot (if not all) of wackier stuff of the Spelljammer

If you're removing everything that makes a setting unique, why not just...play a different setting? There's nothing wrong with the Astral Plane as a campaign setting, it's just not Spelljammer.

[schreier]

They usually do some kind of "event" to explain a change like this, right?

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45815/what-events-in-forgotten-realms-lore-marked-transitions-from-one-edition-to-anot

The Forgotten Realms was first published for AD&D 1st edition. When 2nd edition came out, the change in spells and available classes was explained through the Godswar aka The Time of Troubles.

The introduction of D&D 3e was exceptional in that there was no overarching, global in-setting event introduced to explain the rules changes. Oddly, the adventure Die Vecna Die! was intended to explain the rules changes (for all D&D settings), but its events were never made FR canon. WotC just proceeded with the 3e rules and setting changes without adding any corresponding historical events. The 3e change is thus “silent” in FR's historical record.

Karsus's Folly was made global setting canon with 3e as a historical detail that further developed the history of Netheril and explained some changes local to the Anauroch and some new game elements, but it wasn't the same kind of global upheaval—it was more of a retcon slipped in as undisruptively as possible.1

The Spellplague (and about a century) explained the shift from D&D 3.x to 4e, and the Second Sundering did the same for the transition to 5e.



Would be nice if they did something with the phlogiston and spheres.

[ShurikVch]

Karsus's Folly was made global setting canon with 3e as a historical detail that further developed the history of Netheril and explained some changes local to the Anauroch and some new game elements, but it wasn't the same kind of global upheaval—it was more of a retcon slipped in as undisruptively as possible.
:smallconfused:
The last time I checked, Netheril: Empire of Magic (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic) was published years before the 3E
And Karsus's Folly changed things from the Arcane Age to the "regular AD&D"


Would be nice if they did something with the phlogiston and spheres.
They don't even introduced anything to explain the phlogiston and spheres' appearance in the first place (instead, pretended it always was like this)



If you're removing everything that makes a setting unique, why not just...play a different setting? There's nothing wrong with the Astral Plane as a campaign setting, it's just not Spelljammer.
Why? Because - ...IN SPAAAAAACE!.. :smallcool:
Sure, we can use Dragonstar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonstar_(role-playing_game)) (or whatever else), but - should we?..
Wasn't D&D always about the "use what you like, and drop the rest?"
(Also, Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon - already dropped it - despite being called "Spelljammer")


Spelljammer having weird space stuff was half the point
... for those who liked it.
For those who don't - it was the hint to drop it.
And also, some people liked some stuff, and hated some other stuff: in the Campaign Settings We Hate (https://www.enworld.org/threads/campaign-settings-we-hate.277742/page-3), Spelljammer got 18.7% in the "Love/Hate it!" section (along with 23.4% in "Love it!", 24.8% - "Don't Know or Don't Care", and 27.3% - "Hate it!")


You can already transit the Astral plane without a new setting manual
Really? In which book it was?
Or - do you mean "now", rather than - "back then, at the start of Spelljammer"?


and "astral plane ship" is a lot less interesting than a magic space ship for similar reasons.
Spelljammer have no actual space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space), and spelljammers are not a spacecrafts - which is a huge downer for some people (after all, aliens, lasers, and robots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_to_the_Barrier_Peaks) appeared in D&D years before the Spelljammer)


Saying they always planned for this is complete speculation, the people who wrote spelljammer and the people who wrote that dragon magazine almost certainly do not work at or for Wizards anymore.
Hey, not always plans are put into practice by those who're originally conceived them (say, Panama Channel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal) was initially proposed literal ages before it was finally built)



I do not agree.
It's your sovereign right to disagree - but I can also disagree with your disagreement
(Please, tell me honestly: would you really run a campaign with both Spelljammers and Voidjammers implemented? What's even the point?..)


Given that this presumes a number of things, including plans for reviving Spelljammer as a setting, dating back two huge corporate shifts and three editions
Spelljammer was never completely dead: even if we disregard the online community stuff, there were mentions in 4E Manual of the Planes, articles in the Dragon, and Shadow of the Spider Moon
Thus, Spelljammer was just "mostly dead" (kinda like Bhaal)

on the basis of a third-party writer's article in Dragon Magazine from 30 years ago
Dragon Magazine wasn't a third-party source back then - it was published by the TSR
And Randal S. Doering (https://index.rpg.net/display-search.phtml?key=contributor&value=Randal%20S.%20Doering&perpage=10000&type=normal&match=loose&ltr=W) wrote stuff for TSR since 1986 - way before the "Voidjammers!" (even if it was, apparently, his last work for the magazines)


which itself was presenting an option intended for 1st Edition, during the run of 2nd...
:smallconfused: What's you mean?..
Spelljammer is 2E setting, but option for it is, somehow, "1st Edition"?..
2E started in the 1989; article was published in the 1990.
1st Edition - really?


I would suggest this article is a very poor basis on which to structure the notion of a multi-decade plan to replace the Ptolemaic space concept, especially given their total lack of need to run with it in the first place if they didn't care for it.
Congratulations with discovering the "reverse Ship of Theseus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)": if other people planned and did something with results which strongly correlate with results which were planned back in the past - then was it the new plan to begin with, or just revival of the initial one?


But not all people. Very much not all people. I find it particularly odd that you listed giff as a problem, when they're one of the most well-liked things from the setting.
Don't get me wrong - I'm, personally, completely OK with Giffs
But I seen people complaining about them - over and again:
Anonymous (https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/61848599/#q61853214): "Not everybody likes blundering pseudo-British gun-crazed hippo-men"
Memnir (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/410354-Petition-to-stop-the-Gnomes?p=4924965&viewfull=1#post4924965): "Yeah, I'd rather see space safari hippo-people before Dragonborn - and I find them one of the most ridiculous things D&D ever produced."
chiguayante (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/4e-spelljammer-speculation.538222/page-2#post-12852423): "Tinker gnomes, giant hamsters, giff and all that other nonsense? I'd really rather not."
I presumed that disliking was somewhat more universal - like hatred to Tinker Gnomes...


Oh there are undoubtedly several of those, too, but no; what I meant was that Oerth is on the Prime Material Plane, while Aerth, Uerth, Yarth, etc. are on alternate Material Planes. None are reachable via spelljamming.
They're all on the (Prime) Material Planes (including Earth!):

Indigo Column
Skill Check: DC 25 Knowledge (arcana).
Question: Oerth is but one of five parallel Material Plane worlds. Name the other four.
Answer: Yarth, Aerth, Uerth, and Earth.

[afroakuma]

They don't even introduced anything to explain the phlogiston and spheres' appearance in the first place (instead, pretended it always was like this)

Nor did they need to :smallconfused:


Really? In which book it was?
Or - do you mean "now", rather than - "back then, at the start of Spelljammer"?

...the Player's Handbook, astral projection allows you to enter and traverse the Astral Plane.


Spelljammer have no actual space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space), and spelljammers are not a spacecrafts - which is a huge downer for some people (after all, aliens, lasers, and robots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_to_the_Barrier_Peaks) appeared in D&D years before the Spelljammer)

And? It's good for some, not good for others, just as this 5E version will be good for some, not good for others. Why a group opposed to what Spelljammer does should get their way with a setting pitched as revived Spelljammer is beyond me - there should be a different product to cater to them.


It's your sovereign right to disagree - but I can also disagree with your disagreement
(Please, tell me honestly: would you really run a campaign with both Spelljammers and Voidjammers implemented? What's even the point?..)

I'll do you one better, I can tell you honestly that I did run such a game - and the point was to allow exploration of both arcane space as depicted in Spelljammer as well as the planes.


Dragon Magazine wasn't a third-party source back then - it was published by the TSR

I didn't say a third-party publication, I said a third-party writer, i.e. not one who was involved with the production of the original setting.


And Randal S. Doering (https://index.rpg.net/display-search.phtml?key=contributor&value=Randal%20S.%20Doering&perpage=10000&type=normal&match=loose&ltr=W) wrote stuff for TSR since 1986 - way before the "Voidjammers!" (even if it was, apparently, his last work for the magazines)

All, per that very list, in a third-party capacity, submitting content to the magazines for possible publication. Nowhere does it indicate that he was ever staff.


:smallconfused: What's you mean?..
Spelljammer is 2E setting, but option for it is, somehow, "1st Edition"?..
2E started in the 1989; article was published in the 1990.
1st Edition - really?

I mean according to the article itself, it was intended to service 1st Edition. (https://imgur.com/a/VUOfwSd) Did you actually review the article in question, or just cite it because it appeared to support your notion that there was some secret master plan to do the setting differently?


Congratulations with discovering the "reverse Ship of Theseus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)": if other people planned and did something with results which strongly correlate with results which were planned back in the past - then was it the new plan to begin with, or just revival of the initial one?

Now you're just making spurious assertions. I'm quite confident that I've met the evidentiary burden to raise reasonable doubt that there was ever any such plan. It's on you to raise actual material evidence to the effect that:

• the creators and/or publishers of the original Spelljammer setting always intended that it not operate on a Ptolemaic model;
• that they were for some reason compelled to use this model against their desire to do so;
• that they advanced their original plan via a third-party writer's article for 1st Edition content in Dragon Magazine;
• and that, all this being established, the 5E redesign employing the Astral as the stand-in for "space" corresponds with this unknown master plan.

No such evidence exists. You're spinning up an unprovable theory and trying to ask others to either accept it or prove you wrong, and quite frankly there's insufficient merit to your argument for me to continue tilting at this windmill. I know you have no interest in being persuaded that your theory is not the case, and so I shan't bother. I've made what I believe to be a very strong case for the audience I choose - everyone else who looks in on this thread.


They're all on the (Prime) Material Planes (including Earth!):

On alternate Material Planes, as I said. "Parallel" here indicates they are not on the same Material Plane. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universes_in_fiction)

In any event, I've made my argument, and have seen nothing to justify continuing to debate the point. If anyone has any further questions about Spelljammer, Planescape, or anything else from D&D lore in 3.5th edition or prior, you know where to find me. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616081-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VIII)

[ShurikVch]

...the Player's Handbook, astral projection allows you to enter and traverse the Astral Plane.
OK, point. (Even if it called "Astral Spell" back then)
Still, for me it sounds like: "Why you need a ship? You can swim just fine!.."
(Let alone the need for at least 7th-level spell)



I'll do you one better, I can tell you honestly that I did run such a game - and the point was to allow exploration of both arcane space as depicted in Spelljammer as well as the planes.
OK
Was it a good game? How long it went?
To explore Astral sounds a bit odd for me - what's there besides githyanki (troublesome!), dead gods (guarded by Anubis), and Astral Dragons? Still, I can believe you managed to make it work for the game...



I mean according to the article itself, it was intended to service 1st Edition. (https://imgur.com/a/VUOfwSd) Did you actually review the article in question, or just cite it because it appeared to support your notion that there was some secret master plan to do the setting differently?
OK, some points for you.
But - in my defense: AFAIK, there was no 2E materials for Astral Plane until the Planescape, thus - if somebody wanted to use Astral Plane before it - they were forced to use 1E stuff (it's not even like 1E and 2E were that much different - not like 2E and 3E, or 3E and 4E)



Now you're just making spurious assertions. I'm quite confident that I've met the evidentiary burden to raise reasonable doubt that there was ever any such plan. It's on you to raise actual material evidence to the effect that:

• the creators and/or publishers of the original Spelljammer setting always intended that it not operate on a Ptolemaic model;
• that they were for some reason compelled to use this model against their desire to do so;
• that they advanced their original plan via a third-party writer's article for 1st Edition content in Dragon Magazine;
• and that, all this being established, the 5E redesign employing the Astral as the stand-in for "space" corresponds with this unknown master plan.

No such evidence exists. You're spinning up an unprovable theory and trying to ask others to either accept it or prove you wrong, and quite frankly there's insufficient merit to your argument for me to continue tilting at this windmill. I know you have no interest in being persuaded that your theory is not the case, and so I shan't bother. I've made what I believe to be a very strong case for the audience I choose - everyone else who looks in on this thread.
I hope you understand: even if such evidences really exist, but I don't have them right now - chance to acquire them is improbable
Still, to the some of points stated:
They not always intended that it not operate on a Ptolemaic model. But Spelljammer - as far as I heard - didn't sell very well. One of possible changes could be a change of model.
Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon (https://rpggeek.com/rpg/34295/spelljammer-shadow-spider-moon) was non-Ptolemaic too (and it was published by the Wizards of the Coast - thus, 1st-party)



On alternate Material Planes, as I said. "Parallel" here indicates they are not on the same Material Plane. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universes_in_fiction)
Yes, I know.
It's exactly what I said
Your point?..

[afroakuma]

OK
Was it a good game? How long it went?

It was indeed. It went on long enough that I ended up with five different groups in the same campaign. We had a grand time.


I hope you understand: even if such evidences really exist, but I don't have them right now - chance to acquire them is improbable

I hope you understand that in absence of such evidence being present, it's hard to credit an argument stating that their intention was always to do it the new way and not the way they went with. Nor do I believe any such evidence will ever turn up, or could, given that I don't believe this theory one bit.


They not always intended that it not operate on a Ptolemaic model. But Spelljammer - as far as I heard - didn't sell very well. One of possible changes could be a change of model.

This is a different assertion, though; you're moving the goalposts. Your initial assertion was that they always wanted to do non-Ptolemaic and base it on the Astral Plane, but simply did not at the time.


Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon (https://rpggeek.com/rpg/34295/spelljammer-shadow-spider-moon) was non-Ptolemaic too (and it was published by the Wizards of the Coast - thus, 1st-party)

Shadow of the Spider Moon didn't address the Ptolemaic question whatsoever, as it was presented entirely as a single solar system. It's rather likely that if Erik Mona had his way, it would have done away with crystal spheres, but of course 1) it doesn't address the issue and 2) Mona specifically points out in his preface to the issue that SotSM is a reinterpretation of material he and the author enjoyed from Spelljammer, without the bits they did not personally enjoy. A far cry from a clean full-throated endorsement that this is meant to be official Spelljammer material for 3rd Edition.


Yes, I know.
It's exactly what I said
Your point?..

My point is that you originally said the parallel worlds of Oerth resulted in Spelljammer being a retcon, but this has no basis in anything - the method of accessing such worlds did not at any point change before or after Spelljammer, nor does the Spelljammer notion of travel between campaign settings sharing a cosmology and Material Plane conflict with Oerth's parallel worlds. The one has nothing to do with the other.

In any event, this has been taken as far as it can be. Good day, all.

[GuyOnline]

So if I don’t like Eberron and how different it is to standard DnD (That’s purely an example, Eberron is great and I have little to no quarrel with it) we should scoop away everything unique about it and make it fit the standard DnD mold?

I’m going to try to be optimistic and hope that I’m pleasantly surprise, because I really want to enjoy any new Spelljammer content, but the clear sweeping changes they’re making to many of the interesting and unique parts of Spelljammer that gave it it’s identity worries me.