OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

[tanonx]

But technically, if our cheating deity convinced their high priest... then when the high priest gets the notification that a rival priest is trying to resurrect them, they'll just send it to voicemail and resume their dinner at All Steaks Go To Heaven. And even if a Miracle is used, it's hard for me to imagine the DM not rolling with "You're duplicating a spell effect, so you're bound by the same rules that govern Resurrection."

Well, if it was up to a DM, I'd argue that I'm asking for an effect whose power level is in line with a spell, not duplicating the spell. And I'll start at Raise Dead, a 5th level spell, so we can pile 3 more spell levels on top if we have to budget for the power of antagonistic resurrections. We can then bargain our way up the chain, up to and including dropping 5,000 XP on the open-ended "very powerful request" option.

But, importantly, there is no DM in this world, and mechanical balances have always taken a back seat to dramatic worldbuilding. Arcane power has already been able to keep a soul against its will. Divine power is uniquely suited to punting one back down.

Unless, of course, there's no Miracles in the world, and also no homebrew that fits the bill. That's the annoying bit about "rules unless otherwise stated" - until that statement comes, your plan looks just like one that would work.


The main problem with that is that the gods have been playing by air-bud rules. "Don't kill the ushers" strikes me as a much more obvious unwritten rule than "Dogs can't play basketball".

The whole reason The Durk One could kill the ushers was because the meeting was being administrated by a third party, who had no protections. They were elemental worshipers, after all, with no representation in a Godsmoot. Presumably, also not selected by divine choice. A lot of the Moot as we know it seems to be church laws, if useful and well-meaning ones, not divine command.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Unless, of course, there's no Miracles in the world, and also no homebrew that fits the bill. I'd strongly suspect that for dramatic purposes there is no miracle spell and no equivalent, just like there's no true resurrections.

Really, the miracle spells seems like a terrible addition to any non-table top story (expect maybe something where the whole story is structured around it like genie short stories). If Rich wants a spell to stop an Earthquake (an example from the miracle's spell description) he'd foreshadow and use a spell that does exactly and only that, without raising any questions about using it to teleport or any random thing.



The whole reason The Durk One could kill the ushers was because the meeting was being administrated by a third party, who had no protections. They were elemental worshipers, after all, with no representation in a Godsmoot. Presumably, also not selected by divine choice. A lot of the Moot as we know it seems to be church laws, if useful and well-meaning ones, not divine command.I really don't see how that's anything other than a break down of "Ain't no rule says you can't kill the ushers".

[arimareiji]

I'd strongly suspect that for dramatic purposes there is no miracle spell and no equivalent, just like there's no true resurrections.

Really, the miracle spells seems like a terrible addition to any non-table top story (expect maybe something where the whole story is structured around it like genie short stories). If Rich wants a spell to stop an Earthquake (an example from the miracle's spell description) he'd foreshadow and use a spell that does exactly and only that, without raising any questions about using it to teleport or any random thing.

Also, if we're going with "This is a story world and there is no DM" then we also go back to (iirc) "Rich has said he will never use suicide as a solution / plot device" which makes the argument moot.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, Crystal got levels for free for being a rival. There could be other nonadventuring methods of gaining levels. Hmm, while the distinct mechanic mentioned was "nemesis" (for narrative reasons) that's a good point. Other similar avenues may also exist that are not shown on screen.

[tanonx]

Really, the miracle spells seems like a terrible addition to any non-table top story (expect maybe something where the whole story is structured around it like genie short stories).

I would say there's one strong argument for Miracle that puts it over True Resurrection, Wish, and so on: Where Wish is altering reality, and other spells are things you can just do, Miracle is specifically a request. You say what you want to happen, and request divine intercession.

Since the gods in this world are fleshed-out characters already, with the final say on not just whether it happens, but how, you have far more tools at your disposal to preserve drama, and are under no obligation to even make it a repeatable request, never mind being forced to consider the greater ramifications of said request being possible whenever a sufficiently high-level cleric feels like.

Honestly, it'd be less of a problem for narrative tension than the existence of homebrew content is already. With a Miracle, you still have defined limits on what can happen. A very high-level cleric needs to request it, their deity needs to find it agreeable and important enough to burn divine energy on, it can't clash with existing restrictions on divine action (and we have plenty of those), and it weakens the caster if it does anything existing spells wouldn't cover. Obscure supplements and homebrewed content need no such restrictions.


I really don't see how that's anything other than a break down of "Ain't no rule says you can't kill the ushers".

Because the gods never cared if you killed the ushers to start with. That line only works if someone tries to stop you. As Durk points out, they have no protection from the rules of the Godsmoot, and no god to speak up on their behalf. Which, incidentally, implies that having a god to speak up on your behalf can be a factor even if you're technically not protected. More immediately relevant, they're excluded from protection, when a simpler "no killing" rule wouldn't have that problem. Given how Hel's plan revolves around keeping inside Godsmoot protections, it's probably smart not to extend them any further than you have to. In case somebody, say, teleported in at the right time and dominated all of them to get an advantage.

Besides, they're not really vital to the plan. Durk knew the rules of the Godsmoot, meaning anything keeping him from vamping someone there would just mean he'd vamp a cleric along the way and send them ahead. Same goes for a potential Plan Domination.

And a quick reminder, the earlier topic is about how the gods play, not the mortals. We still don't know which rules belong to which set, and I'd say the whole bodyguard-cleric dynamic is a mortal invention. Gods don't need help putting someone to death immediately if they've got the go-ahead from the divine law.

[Necris Omega]

I'm of the opinion that the OotS gods are incompetent.

I was thinking this too for the longest time, but after a while, I think it's less that they're incompetent, and more that they're slaves to their own nature which... doesn't seem to be much in their control.

The discussions between Loki and Thor and about Odin and how his nature got borked by some of his followers really paints a picture of gods who are less "supreme authorities" over their portfolios, and more incarnations of those portfolios with little to no say over what form those portfolios take. Whatever power and divine status they derive from their portfolios, so too are they bound by them.

The gods are clearly shaped as much by their worlds and followers and the reverse, and the end result is... imperfect gods create imperfect followers which leads to further imperfections of said gods, rinse and repeat over n generations of worlds...



I guess this doesn't really say that the gods aren't incompetent, so much as explain how they got that way. And they were flawed beings to start with - thus the Snarl and impetus for... everything. But from what we've seen of how they're shaped, it seems doubtful that the dectillion worlds or so they created would have lead to more positive developments than, say... dementia Odins.

[Larsaan]

In fairness to the gods, it seems they had no way of knowing it was even possible to create new quiddities. They also need to create worlds to not die, so it doesn't really seem fair to blame them for keeping the cycle going. What better alternative was there?

[Thermophille]

In fairness to the gods, it seems they had no way of knowing it was even possible to create new quiddities. They also need to create worlds to not die, so it doesn't really seem fair to blame them for keeping the cycle going. What better alternative was there?

In fairness to Serini, it's really hard to see things that way when everything you know and love is being sacrificed by someone you've never met.

[Larsaan]

In fairness to Serini, it's really hard to see things that way when everything you know and love is being sacrificed by someone you've never met.

Well yes, but that wasn't aimed at Serini, it was aimed at the people on this forum who were calling the gods incompetent for not having solved the Snarl situation already.

[tanonx]

In fairness to Serini, it's really hard to see things that way when everything you know and love is being sacrificed by someone you've never met.

In unfairness to Serini, that's exactly what letting the lich take over the world would do to everyone else. Plenty of irony in that.

She says the world will survive, the gods say the multiverse will survive. At least the latter have the planar afterlife to offer.

[Fyraltari]

In unfairness to Serini, that's exactly what letting the lich take over the world would do to everyone else. Plenty of irony in that.
You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath. Given the world they live in, and despite it being obvious wishful-thinking she came up with to justify her already-decided course of action, rather than the opposite, it's not that unlikely that a team of heroes would eventually arise to cast down the evil tyrant.


She says the world will survive, the gods say the multiverse will survive. At least the latter have the planar afterlife to offer.
Not great news for the dwarves. And frankly most of these afterlives mighty suck.

Also, if the Snarl gets out on the planet, then no afterlife for anybody.

Hell, even her concern that the Order might destroy the final Gate isn't that unreasonable when you remember that Roy once equated Xykon winning and the planet being literally destroyed (first page, bottom row (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)).

[hungrycrow]

You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath. Given the world they live in, and despite it being obvious wishful-thinking she came up with to justify her already-decided course of action, rather than the opposite, it's not that unlikely that a team of heroes would eventually arise to cast down the evil tyrant.


He wouldn't run everything himself, but he might pick people just as sadistic as he is to run things for him. He might have let Redcloak run things, but he also gave Tsukiko license to run around zombifying goblin soldiers.

[Fyraltari]

He wouldn't run everything himself, but he might pick people just as sadistic as he is to run things for him. He might have let Redcloak run things, but he also gave Tsukiko license to run around zombifying goblin soldiers.
Oh, it would definitely suck more for the people in the general area where he'd live settle, sure. But I don't see him appointing people for every state on the planet.

No really, I think the real risknwould be him deciding to blow up the planet put of boredom.

Besides, this is all a moot point anyway.

[Vikenlugaid]

He wouldn't run everything himself, but he might pick people just as sadistic as he is to run things for him. He might have let Redcloak run things, but he also gave Tsukiko license to run around zombifying goblin soldiers.
Yes and that's exactly the beginning of his end, cause you know, evil is not a happy family.

[Peelee]

You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath.

I can actually imagine quite well how it would likely go but I cannot go into detail.

[KorvinStarmast]

I guess this doesn't really say that the gods aren't incompetent, so much as explain how they got that way. And they were flawed beings to start with - thus the Snarl and impetus for... everything. But from what we've seen of how they're shaped, it seems doubtful that the dectillion worlds or so they created would have lead to more positive developments than, say... dementia Odins.
One of the few good posts ever about OoTS deities. Well done.

[Liquor Box]

You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath. Given the world they live in, and despite it being obvious wishful-thinking she came up with to justify her already-decided course of action, rather than the opposite, it's not that unlikely that a team of heroes would eventually arise to cast down the evil tyrant.


He might try and devise an even more grandiose scheme, which may be achievable as ruler of the world and soemoen who has access to the Snarl. Trying to ascend to godhood himself might be what he tries to do. No idea how much destruction he might cause trying to do that.

Also, even if he doesn't take much of an active hand in ruling, someone will rule the world, and there's every chance it will be a villain. Whether he actually installs a villain of his own choosing (like Redcloak), or simply takes a hands off approach and allows villains like Tarquin to pop up everywhere, it does seem unlikely he'd let any righteous ruler remain.

[tanonx]

You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things.

For someone like Xykon, I think ruling is different from administration. Not in a trivial sense, either - when Xykon wanted his phylactery found, the whole city was put on it, immediately. If he wants to roll out and take your leadership with him, he will, and you better hope they have a plan for that, because he doesn't. He doesn't care about details, or prosperity, but he absolutely does care about being the area's ultimate power. You don't need to worry about him having armies from all his cities, sure. You just need to worry that there are no more armies against him.


Hell, even her concern that the Order might destroy the final Gate isn't that unreasonable when you remember that Roy once equated Xykon winning and the planet being literally destroyed (first page, bottom row (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)).

Is he wrong, though? Like he says, Xykon won't literally destroy the planet, but he'll kill its soul. You can hope the world keeps churning out PCs until he dies, but there's not clear reason why it would, once you get down to it, except that it's a genre expectation. If a few generations of the best heroes an adventure-friendly, good-friendly world have on offer don't beat him, a conflict-scarce, evil-friendly world isn't likely to manage it any time soon, either. And after a few generations, "ruled by an evil lich" will be the default state of the world. You can lean on evil fighting evil as a way to bring Xykon down, but by then the damage to the world is done, and your new boss won't change much.

You'll see a lot more dwarven souls sent to Hel in that case. Not much honor in getting into feuds between the local evil warlords. Come to think of it, ending this world appears to be the option that liberates future dwarves to start with.

Someone better work on a really big planeshift, once all is said and done.

[Necris Omega]

One of the few good posts ever about OoTS deities. Well done.

Thank you.

The gods of OotS are sentient, sure, but they're more slaves to their nature than perhaps their own followers. To that end, they're not "sentient" in the mortal sense, but in an unrelatable, cosmic sense that leaves them at the mercy of forces they, for all their phenomenal deific power, can do little to counteract. Even in relating to one another, their own natures requires them to tie their own hands with unyielding, inane and unadaptable rules, and there's no apparent way for them to overcome any of that.

To subsist, they must have worshipers. To have worshipers is to be subject to those worshipers. And those worshipers shape their compulsions and natures such that they cannot be more than those worshipers define. Loki can only be Loki and can't be anything else, no matter what his chaotic little heart may desire. He's trapped in that role and all it entails. So's his daughter. So are all the gods. If power were a question of free will, they'd be anything but all powerful. They may be the personification of grand ideas and concepts, but in agency terms, they're less than people.

"You are what you eat" applies very thoroughly to the gods. Perhaps ridiculously so. And these are same gods who at one point created a world of sentient junk food...

Perhaps expecting reason and responsibility out of them is ... neither reasonable nor responsible.

[arimareiji]

I can actually imagine quite well how it would likely go but I cannot go into detail.

Well-said. Well-not-said. (^_~)

[danielxcutter]

Oh, it would definitely suck more for the people in the general area where he'd live settle, sure. But I don't see him appointing people for every state on the planet.

No really, I think the real risknwould be him deciding to blow up the planet put of boredom.

Besides, this is all a moot point anyway.

Considering that Xykon already would have slaughtered all the goblins in Gobbotopia if he hadn't found them dancing on the paladins' graves more amusing according to Redcloak, I imagine "slaughtering entire countries" would be a starting point.

[Mike Havran]

Considering that Xykon already would have slaughtered all the goblins in Gobbotopia if he hadn't found them dancing on the paladins' graves more amusing according to Redcloak, I imagine "slaughtering entire countries" would be a starting point.Eh, I think that was a hyperbole on Redcloak's part. Killing so many few-HD creatures is tedious and boring. Xykon has better taste than that.

[Liquor Box]

For someone like Xykon, I think ruling is different from administration. Not in a trivial sense, either - when Xykon wanted his phylactery found, the whole city was put on it, immediately. If he wants to roll out and take your leadership with him, he will, and you better hope they have a plan for that, because he doesn't. He doesn't care about details, or prosperity, but he absolutely does care about being the area's ultimate power. You don't need to worry about him having armies from all his cities, sure. You just need to worry that there are no more armies against him.
Well said. As ruler of the world, if he wanted something to happen, it would happen.

[Larsaan]

Eh, I think that was a hyperbole on Redcloak's part. Killing so many few-HD creatures is tedious and boring. Xykon has better taste than that.

He wouldn't do it methodically, but sooner or later he'd definitely "use them up", so to speak. Once regular mortals have no more value to him as a resource, you just know he's going to start having contests like seeing how many people he can hit with a single Meteor Swarm, or playing Jenga with zombified villagers, or making his own armies fight each other, or hosting a caltrop eating competition where the winner's family gets to live... for now.

[Vikenlugaid]

You'll see a lot more dwarven souls sent to Hel in that case. Not much honor in getting into feuds between the local evil warlords. Come to think of it, ending this world appears to be the option that liberates future dwarves to start with.


Nah, dwarves will be out of hell if they die in battle, even uf they are evil. In fact, an evil society will have more chances to die in battle than a good one. {Scrubbed}

[bunsen_h]

You'll see a lot more dwarven souls sent to Hel in that case. Not much honor in getting into feuds between the local evil warlords. Come to think of it, ending this world appears to be the option that liberates future dwarves to start with.

Eugene suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) that they might "squeeze in a quick civil war before lunch tomorrow", though we don't know if that's a realistic option.


Well-said. Well-not-said. (^_~)

I've been suppressing the urge to bring up real-world politics... :smallwink:


He wouldn't do it methodically, but sooner or later he'd definitely "use them up", so to speak. Once regular mortals have no more value to him as a resource, you just know he's going to start having contests like seeing how many people he can hit with a single Meteor Swarm, or playing Jenga with zombified villagers, or making his own armies fight each other, or hosting a caltrop eating competition where the winner's family gets to live... for now.

"How many gobbos can fit into a phone booth, if they're minced finely? How about if it's a transdimensional phone booth? Ooh, yeah, realistic war games, because the table-top stuff is for losers. It's no fun if real people aren't getting hurt or killed."

[Throknor]

I think even more relevant is that the god who made the case at the godsmoot for not destroying the world yet included in the argument that they could still pull the plug quickly if the last gate falls.

I get the feeling they've had a meeting already once they learned of the plan when Lorian's Gate was destroyed. It would have been apparent that whether or not Xykon and Redcloak escaped someone else might figure out how to threaten them whether from the Dark One or on their own. In that meeting they may have already agreed to destroy the world if anyone started such a ritual.

The current meeting had a vibe more of 'should we bother waiting' feel. After all at least two of the rifts are definitely larger than they originally were and the only obvious obstacles for Xykon/Redcloak were a rag-tag bunch of adventures without a cleric (whose actions resulted in the gates destruction more often than not) and an elderly halfling's magic door trick that Redcloak would have eventually figured out.


Hmm, while the distinct mechanic mentioned was "nemesis" (for narrative reasons) that's a good point. Other similar avenues may also exist that are not shown on screen.
While not explicitly stated Hilgya may have considered Durkon her nemesis and benefited accordingly.

[KorvinStarmast]

While not explicitly stated Hilgya may have considered Durkon her nemesis and benefited accordingly. Once she was mad at him for the way he gave her the brush off, that makes sense.

[tanonx]

Eugene suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) that they might "squeeze in a quick civil war before lunch tomorrow", though we don't know if that's a realistic option.

The key word in Hel's memory appears to be "die with honor." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)

Given Eugene's track record, I wouldn't trust him to grasp how honor works. And once the world's over, Hel will be a lot harder to pull one over on, where lawyering dwarves out of her domain is concerned.

And, while dwarves have a variety of workarounds to get out of this problem, how certain are we that they work? What's the dwarven caseworker-equivalent think of it? If they're much like the default Lawful Good ones, they may not take kindly to it.

[Larsaan]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I feel like I should point out that "viking" was a profession, one that only a portion of old norse society took part in. I'd also argue that they were no more or less brutal than most other professional soldiers of their time, though perhaps there's an argument to be made that medieval morality in general might be considered Evil.

As a side note, the show "Vikings" and the video game "Assassin's Creed: Valhalla" shouldn't be considered even remotely historically accurate, and the current pop-cultural image of vikings is deeply stupid.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Eh, I think that was a hyperbole on Redcloak's part. Killing so many few-HD creatures is tedious and boring. Xykon has better taste than that.

He has a bouncing ball of insanity and most probably has Blackfire as an 8th level spell. If he wants to slaughter a city, he is absolutely able to in a minimal amount of time.

[danielxcutter]

Also, he’d totally start a Wightpocalypse because he was bored.

[JonahFalcon]

The cool dead bug that Sunny wanted to show Elan?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/bf/6c/9dbf6cef2ba4886b53731fe8d4f49308.jpg

[bunsen_h]

The cool dead bug that Sunny wanted to show Elan?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/bf/6c/9dbf6cef2ba4886b53731fe8d4f49308.jpg
A Spinal Centipede, I gather? I don't know Magic-ese, but I think it's harmless as long as it's dead?

[JonahFalcon]

[/SPOILER]
A Spinal Centipede, I gather? I don't know Magic-ese, but I think it's harmless as long as it's dead?


Monstrous Centipede.

[bunsen_h]

Monstrous Centipede.

The image is from Magic: The Gathering (https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=452836).

[Quizatzhaderac]

The cool dead bug that Sunny wanted to show Elan?To me that's rather a-hat-on-a-hat, what with having an endoskeleton outside an exoskeleton.

My silly suggestion for cool-dead bug is Shedinja. Which is cicada-ghost-ninja-pokemon.
https://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/thumb/5/59/292Shedinja.png/375px-292Shedinja.png.

[Jay R]

So, who here thinks the cool dead bug will turn out to have important plot significance?

[Thermophille]

So, who here thinks the cool dead bug will turn out to have important plot significance?

Considering that the punchlines of each comic generally have less plot significance than anything else that's said, it's unlikely.

[Ionathus]

Really, REALLY enjoyed Belkar's perspective here. I remember back in the middle of DStP, I was so annoyed with him and lost no tears over his impending permadeath. But these days with every update, Belkar's character deepens more and more. His convo with Minrah on the ship made me genuinely sad about the prophecy breathing down his neck. I'm aching to see how his arc wraps up...maybe moreso than any other PC!


Also, he’d totally start a Wightpocalypse because he was bored.

I mean, I've done that because I was bored, and I'm not even an evil lich!

Rest in peace, Infectonator. Bring back Flash Player! (except don't)

[Ezekiel]

I mean, I've done that because I was bored, and I'm not even an evil lich!

Rest in peace, Infectonator. Bring back Flash Player! (except don't)

You can get Infectonator on Steam FYI :smallamused:

[Vikenlugaid]

I feel like I should point out that "viking" was a profession, one that only a portion of old norse society took part in. I'd also argue that they were no more or less brutal than most other professional soldiers of their time, though perhaps there's an argument to be made that medieval morality in general might be considered Evil.

As a side note, the show "Vikings" and the video game "Assassin's Creed: Valhalla" shouldn't be considered even remotely historically accurate, and the current pop-cultural image of vikings is deeply stupid.
I am just saying that as far as we know, according to #737 every dwarf who die in battle doesn't go to hel, they go wherever their alignment send them, but not to hel.

[mjasghar]

Since Thor is the main battle god of the pantheon and dying in battle is the easiest way to die honourably it makes sense most go to Thor. It’s interesting that other northern gods haven’t made that effort and surely they know about the Bet. Then again, maybe not.

[Fyraltari]

Since Thor is the main battle god of the pantheon
https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/474x245/1/d/59322728824cc785ffa9deeb08d5871c1222cd18083ff05ab9 687bc3eeea59/th.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid% 3DOIP.hZTt7qze-mNuH5ewajzKNwHaD1%26pid%3DApi&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0


I would see this world torn to shreds, before I allow anyone to gain a strategic advantage over us. Tyr, God of War, votes Yes.

[Peelee]

Since Thor is the main battle god of the pantheon
Source?


and dying in battle is the easiest way to die honourably it makes sense most go to Thor.
Even assuming that Thor is the main battle god, why would dying in battle have them go to Thor? Dying honorably only gets the souls to get out of the Hel deal, they go wherever they would have without the bet. Not specifically to Thor.

[mjasghar]

War =/= battle
Strategy =/= tactics
If he isn’t the battle god what is he? God of beer? And if they go to other gods after then why aren’t we seeing those gods arguing the case for their worshippers? Sure, we see Loki doesn’t care much about his but a LG like Tyr seems to be would surely be fulfilling his duty.

[Fyraltari]

If he isn’t the battle god what is he? God of beer?


We owe it to our followers to give them every chance to make this right. Thor, God of Storms, votes No.

And if they go to other gods after then why aren’t we seeing those gods arguing the case for their worshippers?
Either:
A)Because Thor is the one who made the Bet in the first place so he feels it is his responsability to help every single dwarf damned by his fault.
B)They do, but we haven't been shown it because they're not relevant to the story unlike Thor who is Durkon's chosen god.

Sure, we see Loki doesn’t care much about his but a LG like Tyr seems to be would surely be fulfilling his duty.
Assuming thr one handed god from 1143 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) is Tyr (and come on, he totally is), his willingness to doom an infinity of planets just to spite and ennemy makes me doubt he's LG in this universe.

[Quizatzhaderac]

If he isn’t the battle god what is he? God of beer? I believe it has been mentioned about a thousand times that Thor is the god of thunder, and explained in detail once that he the god of weather in general.

Also, were you being sarcastic about "God of beer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_of_wine_and_beer)"?

[Vikenlugaid]

War =/= battle
Strategy =/= tactics
If he isn’t the battle god what is he? God of beer?
God of thunder?

[Peelee]

War =/= battle
Strategy =/= tactics
If he isn’t the battle god what is he? God of beer? And if they go to other gods after then why aren’t we seeing those gods arguing the case for their worshippers? Sure, we see Loki doesn’t care much about his but a LG like Tyr seems to be would surely be fulfilling his duty.

So, just to be clear here, you have no source for Thor being the god of battle?

[brian 333]

*scrubbed*

[mjasghar]

Clearly his role goes further than just storms though especially since most Northern dwarves seem to live underground. So for them at least he seems to be more a battle god.

[Fyraltari]

Clearly his role goes further than just storms though especially since most Northern dwarves seem to live underground. So for them at least he seems to be more a battle god.

He generally seems to be in charge of rain and the weather (per Sigdi telling Durkon that clouds are where he keeps rain when he's not using it). Given his demeanor and antagonism with Loki and Surtur, it's likely he's also worshipped as a warrior god in some capacity, but he's not the pantheon's main battle-god which was the claim I objected to.

I also disagree that the dwarves don't see him as that much of a sky god. They see omens in his lightning (see the whole tree business), his main center of worship seems to be Firmament, which is unusually close to the surface, and his priests there have a tradition of star-gazing.

Edit: so his function as a warrior seems secondary to his role of storm-master.

[drazen]

Interesting art problem, the party is now up to 10 humanoids (6 OOTS, Minrah, 2 paladins, and Serini) plus one beholder. Not to mention a cat, a raven, and an allosaurus currently polymorphed into a lizard, although he's parked outside the lair.

I wonder if we'll be skipping to Team Evil or the fiends next, now that everyone's getting along. Sure, Xykon and Redcloak only saw 2 dwarves but their bugbear tracker is going to see a lot more tracks real soon.

[Fyraltari]

Interesting art problem, the party is now up to 10 humanoids (6 OOTS, Minrah, 2 paladins, and Serini) plus one beholder. Not to mention a cat, a raven, and an allosaurus currently polymorphed into a lizard, although he's parked outside the lair.

I wonder if we'll be skipping to Team Evil or the fiends next, now that everyone's getting along. Sure, Xykon and Redcloak only saw 2 dwarves but their bugbear tracker is going to see a lot more tracks real soon.

True (I doubt we'll be cutting off, though), but what does this have to do with the post of mine that you quoted.

[Jacky720]

Either:
A)Because Thor is the one who made the Bet in the first place so he feels it is his responsability to help every single dwarf damned by his fault.
B)They do, but we haven't been shown it because they're not relevant to the story unlike Thor who is Durkon's chosen god.
Probably a mix of both. Other gods can contest souls with Hel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html), even those that aren't theirs (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html). Thor probably does most of them on principle but he isn't required to.

[drazen]

True (I doubt we'll be cutting off, though), but what does this have to do with the post of mine that you quoted.

Actually nothing. I just forgot to remove the quote when replying to the general thread. It's been the kind of week where I'm really glad it's Friday.

Also the new comic came up -- guess it was a little of both!

[Peelee]

Clearly his role goes further than just storms though especially since most Northern dwarves seem to live underground. So for them at least he seems to be more a battle god.

So, again, to be clear here, you have no source for this at all?

[halfeye]

So, again, to be clear here, you have no source for this at all?

They are somewhat limited by the board restrictions on mentioning real world religions.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Clearly his role goes further than just storms though especially since most Northern dwarves seem to live underground. So for them at least he seems to be more a battle god.In my opinion there's a conceptual problem with the way D&D does deities.

Are they supposed to be deities of a domain or of a path?

Domains are like choosing the supermarket or post office: it's a question of if I want to send a package or get some bread. Eventually I'll need both; there's no such things as a person that doesn't use both of them. Dwarfs collectively need a bunch of domains, including domains ill suited to adventurers like farming, fertility, family, and fermentation.

Path being worldviews and ethical frameworks. For roleplaying and story purposes we typically want paths so that a cleric can have a special relationship with a deity.

The contradiction being that domains serve to limit the context where a deity is relevant, and paths tend to universalize the context where the deity is relevant.

So is Thor the weather god? Then he doesn't matter underground. Is he the Battle god? Then he doesn't matter when it's time to cure a plague. If we go strictly by domain, most gods are irrelevant most of the time. Some other choice of domain might be relevant more often that weather for dwarfs, but they are all, by their essence, limiting.

I'd say it makes the most sense to think of Thor as a path deity with some domains tacked on. Thor cares if you're good, he cares if you're brave, he cares about most things you do. He doesn't seem to care about the weather foremost.

[arimareiji]

He generally seems to be in charge of rain and the weather (per Sigdi telling Durkon that clouds are where he keeps rain when he's not using it).

So, rain is stored in the clouds? :smallbiggrin:

(Actually quite a lovely description, but I couldn't resist alluding to the famous never-paid-attention-in-biology fail.)

[Peelee]

They are somewhat limited by the board restrictions on mentioning real world religions.

Given that we are not discussing any real-world religious figures and instead are discussing an explicitly fictional deity based on (but still not the same as) the explicitly fictional deity in Dungeons and Dragons, I don't see how that is limiting at all.

[arimareiji]

Actually nothing. I just forgot to remove the quote when replying to the general thread. It's been the kind of week where I'm really glad it's Friday.

Also the new comic came up -- guess it was a little of both!

Ah, thank you much! Today is the second occasion in a row that I've clicked on my bookmark to go to the comic index (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) and seen nothing new (a couple of times, no less)... then when someone referred to a new comic being up, I clicked it again and still saw nothing new until I click Reload.

(For clarity, I didn't return to that spot in browser history. I clicked on a bookmark to go there as a de novo action.)

I'll have to keep it in mind going forward.

[bunsen_h]

Given that we are not discussing any real-world religious figures and instead are discussing an explicitly fictional deity based on (but still not the same as) the explicitly fictional deity in Dungeons and Dragons, I don't see how that is limiting at all.

FWIW, the Norse gods are not without real-world followers. I know one hobbyist blacksmith who wears a hammer-of-Thor pendant -- I haven't inquired as to his actual faith -- and I see more than a few others on Forged in Fire. There are also some SCA fighters with Norse personae who wear that pendant mundanely.


So, rain is stored in the clouds? :smallbiggrin:

(Actually quite a lovely description, but I couldn't resist alluding to the famous never-paid-attention-in-biology fail.)

I don't know what you're alluding to, but I'm curious.