Why didn't Durkon Plane Shift to Celestia to talk to Roy?

[littlebum2002]

I was reading some old strips when I came upon this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) and thought, if the evil adventuring party can Plane Shift to Celestia, why couldn't Durkon? We know he has that spell and Roy could have helped him coordinate meeting back up with Haley and Belkar.

Obviously this would have spoiled a major narrative arc, but are there any practical reasons why this would not have worked?

[KorvinStarmast]

Obviously this would have spoiled a major narrative arc, but are there any practical reasons why this would not have worked? Nice answer of your own question, as Elan might have observed if he wasn't so busy trying to derail the plot.

[Metastachydium]

"Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination (http://dndsrd.net/spellsPtoR.html#plane-shift)" and Durkon didn't even really know where exactly his intended destination was? Celestia's bound to be huge.

[Fyraltari]

I was reading some old strips when I came upon this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) and thought, if the evil adventuring party can Plane Shift to Celestia, why couldn't Durkon? We know he has that spell and Roy could have helped him coordinate meeting back up with Haley and Belkar.

Obviously this would have spoiled a major narrative arc, but are there any practical reasons why this would not have worked?

A) Durkon at that time was extremely passive and rarely took any initiative.

B) Celestia is a near infinite plane. Once he'd plane shifted there, could he find Roy?

C) Living people don't really seem to be allowed on the premises. Durkon, as a deeply religious and lawful man, would not want to disturb the workings of the afterlife and the authorities would escort him out.

[Kish]

What would Durkon have been looking for, if he had Plane Shifted to Celestia to talk to Roy?

:durkon: "Roy says we should keep tryin' to get 'is body back and resurrect 'im!"
:vaarsuvius: "That was an extremely productive use of a day and a seventh level spell slot."
:durkon: "Fifth, I'm a cleric."
:vaarsuvius: "Whatever! I have real magic to prepare to actually reconnect with Miss Starshine!"

If Durkon had considered that Roy might know why Vaarsuvius' magic wasn't working on Azure City, presumably he also considered the very real possibility that Roy had been resurrected already and wasn't going to be in Celestia for him to find. And even beyond all of that, he wasn't going to come up with an act on a plan on his own; like Elan, he was looking to Hinjo for leadership, and Hinjo's priorities didn't include "find out what Roy Greenhilt has to say."

[littlebum2002]

"Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination (http://dndsrd.net/spellsPtoR.html#plane-shift)" and Durkon didn't even really know where exactly his intended destination was? Celestia's bound to be huge.

I guess "whever Roy Greenhilt is" isn't an accurate enough location to base your arrival at lol

[KillianHawkeye]

I guess "whever Roy Greenhilt is" isn't an accurate enough location to base your arrival at lol

You have to specify a place. A person doesn't count as a destination for magical transportation spells.

That's why the scry is the first part of "scry and die". The first step is to find your target. But it doesn't work across other planes.

[Aegeus]

What would Durkon have been looking for, if he had Plane Shifted to Celestia to talk to Roy?

:durkon: "Roy says his body is in Cliffport with Haley, but a wizard has turned it into a bone golem!"
:vaarsuvius: "That was an extremely productive use of a day and a seventh level spell slot. No sarcasm."
FTFY. Roy could have given the gang some major spoilers if he was allowed to talk with anyone while he was dead.

[Kish]

Wow, that sure is a lot of meta-knowledge your "fix" relies on. If Durkon can both time Plane Shifting to be when Roy's body is a bone golem, and know that Roy will have that much more relevant to say than just "I've been in Celestia this whole time," I wonder why he didn't skip the spell and just tell the others the plot of the rest of the book.

[One Step Two]

"Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination (http://dndsrd.net/spellsPtoR.html#plane-shift)" and Durkon didn't even really know where exactly his intended destination was? Celestia's bound to be huge.

This is also the same issue when you Plane Shift back, especially when your return point is somewhere in the ocean. And you're wearing plate armor.

[Peelee]

I was reading some old strips when I came upon this one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) and thought, if the evil adventuring party can Plane Shift to Celestia, why couldn't Durkon? We know he has that spell and Roy could have helped him coordinate meeting back up with Haley and Belkar.

Obviously this would have spoiled a major narrative arc, but are there any practical reasons why this would not have worked?
Others gave several excellent reasons, but let me relate it to the real world for a second.

Durkon can't for the same reason that I can list my location as Birmingham, AL, and you can have a car in North America and yet would not be able to just drive on over and have a nice chat with me.

Even ignoring infinite planes, it's a tall order.

[KorvinStarmast]

Durkon can't for the same reason that I can list my location as Birmingham, AL, and you can have a car in North America and yet would not be able to just drive on over and have a nice chat with me.
Would you be serving BBQ? Need to know if the drive's worth it. :smallcool:

[Peelee]

Would you be serving BBQ? Need to know if the drive's worth it. :smallcool:

Brisket in the smoker for about 18 hours or so, low and slow. You know what I'm talking about, Tex. :smallamused:

[littlebum2002]

You have to specify a place. A person doesn't count as a destination for magical transportation spells.

That's why the scry is the first part of "scry and die". The first step is to find your target. But it doesn't work across other planes.

So how did he know where to find V?


FTFY. Roy could have given the gang some major spoilers if he was allowed to talk with anyone while he was dead.

Exactly


Wow, that sure is a lot of meta-knowledge your "fix" relies on. If Durkon can both time Plane Shifting to be when Roy's body is a bone golem, and know that Roy will have that much more relevant to say than just "I've been in Celestia this whole time," I wonder why he didn't skip the spell and just tell the others the plot of the rest of the book.

I mean if my party is clearly suffering without the help of our leader and I had a spell that would let me talk to our leader and ask for advice with only a couple days of travel time, i don't see why i wouldn't try it at least once to see if he can help.

[KillianHawkeye]

So how did he know where to find V?


You're going to have to be more specific. How did who know what? When? What are you talking about?

[Fyraltari]

You're going to have to be more specific. How did who know what? When? What are you talking about?

I'm guessing it's about the rescue from the semi-elemental plane of Ranch Dressing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html). But it turns out it helps to have diverse skillset in your team (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html).

[littlebum2002]

I'm guessing it's about the rescue from the semi-elemental plane of Ranch Dressing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html). But it turns out it helps to have diverse skillset in your team (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html).

That's because the Plane Shift spell sends you 5-500 miles away from your intended destination. However, there still needs to be an intended destination to go to, but that is also explained in that strip. It says that they used Sending to talk to V and get their location.

SO now that begs the question, why didn't Durkon just cast Sending to talk to Roy? That's easier than Plane Shift and has a 95% chance of success when talking to someone on another plane. However, I don't think the rules of D&D were meant to include "talking to a dead person who is living in their afterlife plane" as something the Sending spell could reasonably do, and regardless, I don't think it would make logical sense to work that way in this universe either.

So I think a reasonable answer to "Why didn't Durkon Plane Shift to see Roy?" might be "because he had no way of telling where Roy was"

[Mike Havran]

So I think a reasonable answer to "Why didn't Durkon Plane Shift to see Roy?" might be "because he had no way of telling where Roy was"Durkon could not even be sure that Roy is in Celestia. He almost got sent to Neutral Good plane.

[Precure]

More important question is: can Roy be killed while in Celestia?

[Saint-Just]

SO now that begs the question, why didn't Durkon just cast Sending to talk to Roy? That's easier than Plane Shift and has a 95% chance of success when talking to someone on another plane. However, I don't think the rules of D&D were meant to include "talking to a dead person who is living in their afterlife plane" as something the Sending spell could reasonably do, and regardless, I don't think it would make logical sense to work that way in this universe either.


There was a discussion on 3.x forum a while ago which concluded it is 100% RAW-legal to contact almost anybody (e.g. Deities) with sending but about nobody has ever heard about doing it in real play - not only from the concern about balance, but also because it seems so contrary to the intent to have all those Contact Other Plane etc. if Sending worked just as well.

[Peelee]

There was a discussion on 3.x forum a while ago which concluded it is 100% RAW-legal to contact almost anybody (e.g. Deities) with sending but about nobody has ever heard about doing it in real play - not only from the concern about balance, but also because it seems so contrary to the intent to have all those Contact Other Plane etc. if Sending worked just as well.

Imean, theres not much that needs concluding - the text for Sending explicitly allows for cross-planar communication, but the other party is not compelled in any way to answer, so deities or other beings will probably just ignore any unsolicited Sendings. Contact Other Plane, meanwhile, does entitle the caster to answers, which is a significant difference.

[Saint-Just]

Imean, theres not much that needs concluding - the text for Sending explicitly allows for cross-planar communication, but the other party is not compelled in any way to answer, so deities or other beings will probably just ignore any unsolicited Sendings. Contact Other Plane, meanwhile, does entitle the caster to answers, which is a significant difference.

I think the fact that people usually don't even try to do it when (ab)using mechanics in unconventional ways is an ancient and venerable subdiscipline still says something.

[KillianHawkeye]

Imean, theres not much that needs concluding - the text for Sending explicitly allows for cross-planar communication, but the other party is not compelled in any way to answer, so deities or other beings will probably just ignore any unsolicited Sendings. Contact Other Plane, meanwhile, does entitle the caster to answers, which is a significant difference.

Personally, I never answer any sending unless I have the caller saved in my contacts list. :smallamused:

[atanamis]

Yikes, I never thought about all the SPAM that must be sent to people via sending. Anyone who is "familiar with you" can just send messages into your head? It is a third level spell, and might cost 90 gold to hire someone to cast it (which would reduce spam?), but for any celebrity that must get old SUPER fast. I'd have to assume that unsolicited sending makes a person unpopular SUPER fast.

[Peelee]

Yikes, I never thought about all the SPAM that must be sent to people via sending. Anyone who is "familiar with you" can just send messages into your head? It is a third level spell, and might cost 90 gold to hire someone to cast it (which would reduce spam?), but for any celebrity that must get old SUPER fast. I'd have to assume that unsolicited sending makes a person unpopular SUPER fast.

Law of unintended consequences. The game is made to play adventures, so if you extrapolate things that make for fun adventures to a fully functioning world at large, things start going pear-shaped in unexpected places.

[Crusher]

Also worth noting: how would Durkon have been sure Roy was in Celestial? I mean, yes, Roy SEEMS to be LG but people’s alignments not being what you might expect is a whole thing in OotS. I mean, there was at least discussion of kicking him over to… Mechanus, maybe? It didn’t seem like a super serious threat, but then again what’s the point of scaring someone at THAT stage of the process. Though as an embodiment of LG, maybe the deva couldn’t help herself.

[KorvinStarmast]

Brisket in the smoker for about 18 hours or so, low and slow. You know what I'm talking about, Tex. :smallamused: Why yes, yes I do! :smallcool:

[Kish]

I doubt VERY MUCH that "maybe Roy wasn't actually Lawful Good!" ever crossed Durkon's mind, for a second.

[Peelee]

I doubt VERY MUCH that "maybe Roy wasn't actually Lawful Good!" ever crossed Durkon's mind, for a second.

That wouldn't necessarily need to have crossed his mind. 9 alignments fit into 17 planes, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that Durkon wouldn't know if Roy had instead gone to Byoptia or Arcadia while still being Lawful Good.

[Keltest]

That wouldn't necessarily need to have crossed his mind. 9 alignments fit into 17 planes, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that Durkon wouldn't know if Roy had instead gone to Byoptia or Arcadia while still being Lawful Good.

If Durkon were determined to make this happen, the Commune spell is at the same spell level as Plane Shift, and can be used to account for at least 9 different afterlives per cast. Just ask "Is Roy's soul on X afterlife" as your yes or no question, going around the ring until you either find him or run out of afterlives.

[Peelee]

If Durkon were determined to make this happen, the Commune spell is at the same spell level as Plane Shift, and can be used to account for at least 9 different afterlives per cast. Just ask "Is Roy's soul on X afterlife" as your yes or no question, going around the ring until you either find him or run out of afterlives.

Totally fair. And it's not like I was seriously arguing that Durkon would have questioned if Roy had made it to Celestia anyway, I just wanted to point out that it was a valid possibility.