Re-enabling poison

[Cikomyr2]

So poison damage type gets a bad rap, doesn't it? Con save that most big monster have a great chance to resit. Many, many monsters being either resistant of even outright immune to it.

I would propose that we make the poison "thematic" to an environment or ecology. And that any creature of the same environment/ecology as the poison would have vulnerability to the poison.

That means all "natural" creatures of the material world would have vulnerability to a poison that comes from the material world. You can have elemental plane poison or demonic poison.

Also, any spell damage would be have the same "thematic" as the caster. So while all PCs of a group (except the weird ones) would have vulnerability to poison from the natural world (the same as all humanoids, animals, beasts, plants, etc..), their own poison damage (ex: Ray of Sickness) would always cause double damage.

But it would do no damage or half damage to Undeads, elementals, constructs, etc.. like usual. Poison becomes a very situational type of damage.

[JNAProductions]

So poison damage type gets a bad rap, doesn't it? Con save that most big monster have a great chance to resit. Many, many monsters being either resistant of even outright immune to it.

I would propose that we make the poison "thematic" to an environment or ecology. And that any creature of the same environment/ecology as the poison would have vulnerability to the poison.

That means all "natural" creatures of the material world would have vulnerability to a poison that comes from the material world. You can have elemental plane poison or demonic poison.

Also, any spell damage would be have the same "thematic" as the caster. So while all PCs of a group (except the weird ones) would have vulnerability to poison from the natural world (the same as all humanoids, animals, beasts, plants, etc..), their own poison damage (ex: Ray of Sickness) would always cause double damage.

But it would do no damage or half damage to Undeads, elementals, constructs, etc.. like usual. Poison becomes a very situational type of damage.

That just doubles down on poison's issues.

Poison isn't bad when the opponents are vulnerable to it-in fact, it can add massive amounts of damage if you have Purple Worm or Wyvern poison!

So doubling damage against those who are already vulnerable to it, without making broader categories able to have it used against them... It does not help its main issue.

[elyktsorb]

That just doubles down on poison's issues.

Poison isn't bad when the opponents are vulnerable to it-in fact, it can add massive amounts of damage if you have Purple Worm or Wyvern poison!

So doubling damage against those who are already vulnerable to it, without making broader categories able to have it used against them... It does not help its main issue.

My main issue with poison is that outside of very specific poisons (IE, basic and the feat one) you don't get access to them without either being hard invested in Intelligence, or at DM discretion. But you know, everything not being effected by it is a close 2nd.

[Kane0]

Agreed with JNA. Poison is perfectly fine against things that it already works on, it's the relatively large swathes of creatures that aren't affected by it that is the problem.

Personally I think the quickest, dirtiest fix is to have poison options that include alternative damage types (eg 1d4 poison + 1d4 acid, or 1d6 poison + 1d6 necrotic), and things that rely on poison damage like the Poisoner feat, Alchemist Artificer and Ray of Sickness give you the option of changing some or all the damage around. We have precedent from Flame Strike, Sun Blade, Scribe Wizard, and so on.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeeaaah, that's not going to help poison. There are too many creature types are immune to it for it to be effective. Even Poisoner is basically useless, despite letting you ignore Poison Resistance, because of how few things resist poison. If you wanted to fix poison, you'd need to make something, be it a poison or item, that ignores poison immunity. Maybe make some special poisons that affect undead, constructs, and elementals.

[ImproperJustice]

One fix we have implemented is borrowing a page from the Witcher and allowing things like holy water, various sanctified oils, or iron dust infused salves be applied in a similar manner as posion to allow greater harm to specific foes like shapechangers, fey, aberrations, undead, etc.

It makes poison kits and poison proficiency more viable, provides another money sink, incentivizes research and scouting, and honestly makes sense in a fantasy world.

If my house if full of rats, I go out and buy rat posion.

If my basement is full of fairies, and they refuse to leave I hire an adventurer who goes and treats the area with his sword infused with iron dust, salt, and mistletoe oil.

[Angelalex242]

Back in 3.5, there used to be 'Holy Poisons' called ravage and 'Holy Diseases' called affliction.

If you want to poison or sicken evil things, converting the Book of Exalted Deeds to 5e is the way to go. Such 'holy poisons/diseases' will end up doing radiant damage, mostly, but with poison/disease rules.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One fix we have implemented is borrowing a page from the Witcher and allowing things like holy water, various sanctified oils, or iron dust infused salves be applied in a similar manner as posion to allow greater harm to specific foes like shapechangers, fey, aberrations, undead, etc.
I'm actually planning something like that for my next campaign. Also putting a greater focus on tracking down the creature in question. Plenty of monsters being smart enough to avoid the group of armed adventurers.

[Spiritchaser]

I think the problems that need to be addressed are covered by others:

Too many things are immune
Poison is too difficult/expensive to make

Also, possibly add that applying poison doesn’t work for long, though maybe if everything else gets fixed, this might be ok as is, or perhaps some poisons should stay effective for longer.

Also, possibly, the action economics of poison application may mean poison application is hardest to do (has the greatest opportunity cost) for the class most thematically inclined to use it, again, poisons that last a bit longer might be the solution if this is a problem.

So: reduce many poison immunities to resistances

Allow different/special tailored poisons to work on a number of “immune” creatures or to ignore resistance.

Make poisons easier and cheaper to create from natural/available ingredients.

I can’t say that I’ve tried this, only that I’m planning to.

[Composer99]

I think it would be easier to do some of the following, in some combination:
- Rule that fiends are no longer immune to poison writ large. Same thing with, say, yuan-ti.
- Have a few specialised substances that because of their "sanctified" status, can cause undead or fiends (or just undead if you adopt the previous bullet point) to become poisoned (despite the condition immunity). Heck, holy water could do this!
- Do the same thing with a substance that can affect constructs (or at least categories of constructs, such as constructs made of metal).

And maybe other stuff along that line.