Bard with Destructive Wave as a spell secret?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was just wondering how people feel about the spell Destructive Wave being a spell to grab for Bards at level 10? I assume there are better options but due to this spells sheer power level, I thought I would ask.

Constitution Save: 5d6 thunder, 5d6 Necrotic/Radiant, and knocked them prone?
-All in all this looks ok but the Constitution Save doesn't seem good due to how high Constitution saves are in 5e.

[Kane0]

It's a solid spell. There's no friendly fire risk, it's a good chunk of flexible damage and a useful rider even if there is a relatively strong save for half damage and somewhat limited range. Only verbal component too, so no need for a free hand or focus.

[follacchioso]

It's a 5th level spell, so you will only be able to cast it once or twice before a Long Rest. It doesn't even scale when upcast.

There is a friendly fire risk as everybody within 30' is affected. It has a limited range and you really need to be in the middle of melee, surrounded by multiple enemies and far from your friends, to use it effectively.

Fireball, on the other end, does pretty much the same damage, you can cast it more times per Long Rest, and has a great range.

[Angelalex242]

It's a Paladin spell that even Paladins don't generally want to use. Banishing Smite, now that's what the actual Paladin will be using, mostly.

[Sherlockpwns]

It's a 5th level spell, so you will only be able to cast it once or twice before a Long Rest. It doesn't even scale when upcast.

There is a friendly fire risk as everybody within 30' is affected. It has a limited range and you really need to be in the middle of melee, surrounded by multiple enemies and far from your friends, to use it effectively.

Fireball, on the other end, does pretty much the same damage, you can cast it more times per Long Rest, and has a great range.

No friendly fire risk. That is a big benefit for a party that fights in close a lot.

The damage scaling is correct though. If the campaign isn’t going much further this won’t matter much. Otherwise it’s a fantastic spell for its level. Cc, solid damage, no risk to allies, and a mix of damage types, all rarely resisted.

I’d certainly say there is little wrong with it if you are a melee bard like swords, valor, etc.

The closest analogy I think is steel wind strike. Similar damage, no knockdown, can hit 5 enemies, same range. D-wave will do more if there are 6+, but steel wind is an attack, so generally more likely to land full dmg. If you are looking for burst aoe, that’s the other level 5 to consider.

[Amnestic]

There is a friendly fire risk as everybody within 30' is affected

No friendly fire:


You strike the ground, creating a burst of divine energy that ripples outward from you. Each creature you choose within 30 feet of you must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 5d6 thunder damage, as well as 5d6 radiant or necrotic damage (your choice), and be knocked prone. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw takes half as much damage and isn’t knocked prone.

[stoutstien]

Circle of power is my vote for biggest return for magical secret picks. Note it works on spells and magical effects so moving forward it has the potential to get even better if they continue with the current trend for NPCs action options.

[diplomancer]

I'd say that, before Synaptic Static was published in Xanathar's, it was a decent AoE choice for a melee Bard. But once you have a comparable AoE without needing to spend a Magical Secret on it, it gets harder to justify it.

So if for some reason Xanathar is off the table, it's a good pick, or if you regularly deal with creatures immune to psychic damage; otherwise, I'd pass.

[Willie the Duck]

10D6 in 30' burst for a 5th level spell isn't great. The primary advantage is that it can be dropped on your own front liners (the main reason I usually find AoE less useful for non-evokers than I'm led to believe the board in general does). If your party finds it needs targetable AoE it otherwise doesn't have, it is a good choice. Otherwise, there are better uses of 5th level spells (although the lack of need for concentration is another perk).


It's a Paladin spell that even Paladins don't generally want to use. Banishing Smite, now that's what the actual Paladin will be using, mostly.
To be fair, the paladin picks it up at level 17.

[Corran]

It's a Paladin spell that even Paladins don't generally want to use. Banishing Smite, now that's what the actual Paladin will be using, mostly.
A bit off topic. I like it. Many paladins dont get good AoE options. Not a fan of banishing smite on paladins either, on vengeance ones I like it a tiny bit more (due to them also having dimension door). Holy weapon seems pretty good but I didn't have the chance to use it yet, and banishment out of a 5th level slot can also be pretty good (it was usually my 5th level go-to option with that one character I managed to level that high in paladin).

@OP: If you find yourselves close to lots of enemies often enough, then it's an ok choice. Better if your party is lacking in the AoE department, even more if you've got a lot of melee-geared allies (otherwise you could be looking at something like synaptic static which I dont think it uses up a magical secret and which can be used from range). It's not a bad spell, and getting non-concentration spells with your magical secrets pick is generally a good idea (there can be exceptions), but usually there are better choices for magical secrets. For it to be a great choice some things (like the aforementioned party composition and a lack of AoE) need to exist in order to make it so.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Destructive Wave’s value will depend heavily upon campaign factors, such as foes commonly faced and party composition/tactics.

Destructive Wave’s damage types of Thunder and Radiant averages out to S Tier.

Thunder and Radiant are both damage types that creatures are less likely to have Resistance or Immunity to. Off the top of my head, I simply can not think of a creature that is resistant to both types.

Undead are typically not resistant to Radiant. Angels might resist Radiant damage, but likely will suffer the effects from Thunder damage.

Destructive Wave also does half damage on a Saving Throw, and has a zero chance of friendly fire in the spells limited range. Essentially, whenever one casts Destructive Wave, baring a Counterspell cast by the opposition, one is nigh guaranteed some damage will be done.

The trickier question is the Prone effect rider. Dark.revenant’s excellent Damage/ Condition Comparison list, (posted in this forum..search for it), lists the Prone Condition as a ‘D-Tier’ Condition.

The Prone Condition is not as valuable as the Stunned Condition, but still can play a large role in boosting the damage output of allies, while imposing a bit of movement restriction for foes.

Per my quick back o’ napkin calculations , a 10th level warrior, with 18 Str, and two attacks, wielding a greataxe, would improve their expected DPR by 5 points, (8 points with the GWM feat), against a Prone foe that has 20 AC.

A 10th level Rogue, using a rapier, against the same Prone, AC 20 foe, would be expected to increase their average DPR by 9 points.

The extra 17 damage from the bard’s allies, is adding close to an additional 48% extra damage on top of the damage from Destructive Wave, from this admittedly rushed, and non optimized analysis.

I would not consider using a Magical Secret on Destructive Wave with a primarily Ranged Party, that faces Gargantuan creatures on the regular.

In a Curse of Strahd game, with a melee capable party, (Druids, Animate Dead,Paladins, etc), Destructive Wave can be quite useful.

I, do agree with Stoutstein, regarding Circle of Power. In High Tier play, Circle of Power can be tremendously effective as a Bard’s Magical Secret, presuming your foes/environs are magical.