Text over table

[Rleonardh]

I know there is a web errata for dungeon master's guide.

Is there ever anything in a hard printed book about it though?

As not only am I being a dm now after many years away, I'm also in another group as a player.

The dm in that group flat out says table beats text plus if it's not in a hard copy than it's false, as web content is not trustworthy enough to be claimed as legit, it's people making stuff up for exploits.

[Maat Mons]

He's planning to reduce exploits by ignoring errata? This seems like a poor plan.

Anyway, I think Rules Compendium incorporated some of the errata into it. There might also have been some errors fixed in later printings of the DMG.

[Biggus]

Sadly I don't think so. If he thinks the online content is nothing but munchkinism, maybe show him the nerfs to Divine Favor, Righteous Might and Shapechange in the PHB errata? Although he doesn't sound the type to listen to reason...

[Rleonardh]

Yah from players in his group I talked to he is dm is right and go fly a kite if you want type. Plus loves to use dispell magic and amf on players.

So I guess I will also ask this than.

I could go pure cleric but with the hatred for casters it seems this dm has and using only books with tables being the only thing he goes by....
What can i run that will meet Bab 16 and cl 17 min?

I usually just run caster type clerics, meaning full caster 20.

[Biggus]

I could go pure cleric but with the hatred for casters it seems this dm has and using only books with tables being the only thing he goes by....
What can i run that will meet Bab 16 and cl 17 min?

I usually just run caster type clerics, meaning full caster 20.

I'm a bit confused, he hates casters so you don't want to play a straight Cleric, but you're asking for something with at least CL17? That's basically a full caster isn't it?

Also, what books do you have available?

[Rleonardh]

He hates casters as he loves to build encounters that shut down magic.
Silence stones or weapons cast on his baddies so if they get close you can't cast unless silent spell
Anti magic fields in dungeons
Party has 2 casters he will throw 4-5 casters against you.

So Im thinking more BaB than cl due to that, if you shut down my spells than I'm going to wrack your monsters with good BaB.

Already looking at a couple of rings to stop dispell magic and it's greater version. Plus a few scrolls to refill them when needed, some other tricks also. They say he not completely dm vs players but it's pretty darn close.
They love his campaigns and storytelling so that's why they stick around.

All complete books
Dungeon master's guide
Pbh 2

Build starts out at 5.

[Khedrac]

Depends what level you are playing at, but if he goes straight "text trumps table" then Rainbow Servant becomes a full caster rather than half.

And one I found by mistake (and is dubious) is an argent savant centering an AMF on their smilodon animal companion rather than themselves - good luck to the DM's casters when that grapples them...

[Telonius]

Yeah, unfortunately with Wizards completely axing their entire archive of 3.5 content, the official errata page went out the window with it. (Used to be you could get to it right from their website). You can still probably get to it using Wayback. But if the DM doesn't consider "online content" put out by the people that make the game to be credible, then you're not dealing with a reasonable DM. There are about half a dozen other red flags in the little that you've mentioned. What you're describing is not a gaming group I'd enjoy or want to join.

(To put this in context: I work for a major science journal, peer reviewed, lots of citations. We stopped issuing the print version years ago and publish online-only. The journal did not suddenly become trash when we did that).

[Rleonardh]

Yah I'm going to give it a shot, his story telling better be sweet.

There many many red flags I see. I'm just waiting to see if he is a railroader or not.

Unfortunately he is: table is only thing to look at for classes.

I'm so tempted to do the 1 thing I swore never to do as a dm.... Steal other players away from there dm.

[pabelfly]

You have two options, as I see it. First option is to accept that the DM dislikes casters and build something that doesn't really care about antimagic fields. This might be a Tome of Battle character, a regular melee martial character or a ranged character, for example. You can still have fun with these types of characters, and a Tome of Battle character has a lot of options at high level if you want some of that versatility in combat that a full caster typically has.

If you're not willing to play a caster that can't cast in battle, the other option is to find caster choices that keep you functioning inside an antimagic field - the Initiate of Mystra feat, Invoke Magic, having a build based on summoning strong minions, etc. It doesn't seem like your new DM is going to be happy with you taking these options though, so perhaps sounding out your DM would be best before trying to do it in his regular game.

[Maat Mons]

I suggest Ordained Champion.

If you want, you could instead try something with Hospitaler or Sacred Fist.

Technically, Shining Blade of Heironeous, Warpriest, or Gray Guard could be used to get to +16 base attack bonus, but you'd need to ditch them after a few levels to get 9th-level spells pre-epic.

[H_H_F_F]

You could always abuse feats which have a way better table-text than text-text, if you don't think that would lead to a confrontation.

[ciopo]

there was that (typo) table that had a weapon doing 1d33 damage, I don't remember where, but a quick searching will find it

[Biggus]

So Im thinking more BaB than cl due to that, if you shut down my spells than I'm going to wrack your monsters with good BaB.

Already looking at a couple of rings to stop dispell magic and it's greater version. Plus a few scrolls to refill them when needed, some other tricks also. They say he not completely dm vs players but it's pretty darn close.
They love his campaigns and storytelling so that's why they stick around.

All complete books
Dungeon master's guide
Pbh 2

Build starts out at 5.

I agree with Maat Mons that Ordained Champion is a good idea for a divine caster. Do you specifically want to be a divine caster or are you interested in arcane options as well?


Depends what level you are playing at, but if he goes straight "text trumps table" then Rainbow Servant becomes a full caster rather than half.


It's worse than that, he's "table trumps text"...

[Telonius]

Yeah, if you're actually intending to stick with this, trying to build for magical power is not going to end well. Tome of Battle isn't on the list of allowed sources. So I'd probably go with a Horizon Tripper or something like it. Dimension Door is the only thing about them that's really magical, so you're not going to be quite as concerned about being in an Antimagic Field or getting dispelled. The other option is to go with a gish (either in a can like Duskblade, or something like an Eldritch Knight)

[King of Nowhere]

it's probably less that he hates casters, and more that he hates the players being unpredictable. and magic lets you bypass all sorts of obstacles. a dm that always tries hard to shut down magic is often a railroader; you shut down magic to stop the players from leaving the railroads

[Jervis]

I highly recommend against playing with DMs like this. From the sounds of it he’s very similar to a certain organized play server owner I had the displeasure of playing with a while back. As for play advice I recommend using Warlock and stacking up 1,000,000,000 instances of every 24 hour buff spell so he has to roll each one separately whenever I wants to dispel and likely won’t get them all. Props for supernaturally transformation on EB to ignore spell resistance. Or just bring a hyper optimized crusader to the table. Make sure to abuse Mountain Hammer at every opportunity. If playing a Warblade instead do the same but also take Iron Heart Surge.

Edit: Since TOB isn’t there I still recommend warlock. Can probably throw something together later today. The key here if abusing table trumps text somehow.

Edit 2: ok after mulling it over my take on a warlock for these heavy constraints is Warlock 5/ Assassin at 6/ Unseen Seer 7-x. Since dragon magic and dragon magazine aren’t allowed you need to sneak attack from range or use hideous blow while flanking to make sneak attacks happen. The way warlocks interact with PrCs you loose one level of warlock progression to get sneak attack scaling, pretty decent sneak attack at that.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yah from players in his group I talked to he is dm is right and go fly a kite if you want type.

Based on what you've said so far, I'd suggest buying a nice kite. (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=kites+for+adults&crid=18ANR6FHMH5YK&sprefix=kite%2Caps%2C552&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_5_4)

[Rleonardh]

Oh if I was doing a arcane he would hate me.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjuration Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.


Update:
Holy batman Robin laid a egg

He is 1 prc only dm... 😑😡

[Jervis]

Oh if I was doing a arcane he would hate me.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjuration Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.


Update:
Holy batman Robin laid a egg

He is 1 prc only dm... 😑😡

Uhhhh… there’s always Eldritch knight -_-

To be perfectly honest he sounds like the sort of guy that should be running another edition

Oh, and I guess update my advice for the build above to factor in a few levels of spell thief. Though speaking from experience a roguelock without assassin is painful.

[H_H_F_F]

Seriously, no shame in running 5E. If he doesn't like the options of casters and doesn't like multiclassing, he's missing out on a lot of 3.5's advantages over 5E anyway.

You and the other players should buy him the starter set or something!

[Telonius]

He is 1 prc only dm... 😑😡

I update my advice.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/d0/de/f1d0de131fc88ddbae64fe5dd74abc9f.jpg

[Rleonardh]

I update my advice.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/d0/de/f1d0de131fc88ddbae64fe5dd74abc9f.jpg

I agree and the one that said starter kit... Think I just may.

[Jervis]

Seriously, no shame in running 5E. If he doesn't like the options of casters and doesn't like multiclassing, he's missing out on a lot of 3.5's advantages over 5E anyway.

You and the other players should buy him the starter set or something!

5e isn’t even bad as a system. it’s too restrictive for my taste but it’s easy to run if nothing else. Pretty fun too so long as you don’t mind the character building being less complex. The difference in damage between an optimized character and a warlock casting hex if 30-40% at most levels.

[Biggus]

Oh if I was doing a arcane he would hate me.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjuration Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.


Update:
Holy batman Robin laid a egg

He is 1 prc only dm... 😑😡

Not even "you have to finish your PrCl before you go on to another one", a flat "one prestige class only, period"?

OK I give up. I agree with the others, this guy sucks. I wouldn't play with him, he sounds like a raging control freak.

[H_H_F_F]

5e isn’t even bad as a system. it’s too restrictive for my taste but it’s easy to run if nothing else. Pretty fun too so long as you don’t mind the character building being less complex. The difference in damage between an optimized character and a warlock casting hex if 30-40% at most levels.

100%. I've just started running a 5E campaign, for a bunch of new players who aren't the type do dive into a pile of rule books for a 100 hours to really get 3.5. It's a lot of fun.

I personally will always prefer 3.5, which is so much more versatile and has way more concrete rules for many more areas of play, which I think is great even if I end up houseruling half of them away. 5E tends to throw "ask your DM" a lot as a rule, which above all is bad for DMs who don't already know how to run a campaign.

But I still believe that for a vast majority of players and DMs, 5E is a superior system - it's far more approachable and easy to master, far less lethal, and lets you focus mostly on the roleplay without having to calculate optimal Power Attack reductions mid-combat. For anyone who likes deep-diving into the mechanics and doing weird stuff, 3.5 is a better system - but I've realized that's a small minority of people, and OP's DM does not sound like one of us.

[Jervis]

100%. I've just started running a 5E campaign, for a bunch of new players who aren't the type do dive into a pile of rule books for a 100 hours to really get 3.5. It's a lot of fun.

I personally will always prefer 3.5, which is so much more versatile and has way more concrete rules for many more areas of play, which I think is great even if I end up houseruling half of them away. 5E tends to throw "ask your DM" a lot as a rule, which above all is bad for DMs who don't already know how to run a campaign.

But I still believe that for a vast majority of players and DMs, 5E is a superior system - it's far more approachable and easy to master, far less lethal, and lets you focus mostly on the roleplay without having to calculate optimal Power Attack reductions mid-combat. For anyone who likes deep-diving into the mechanics and doing weird stuff, 3.5 is a better system - but I've realized that's a small minority of people, and OP's DM does not sound like one of us.

I’ve actually been chipping away at a project to convert a bunch of 3.5 character options to 5e for a while. I was almost considering making a full 5.3E homebrew that would just be 3.5 with 5e proficiency and some changed up multiclassing. I still have no idea how to handle extra attack in that though

[Rleonardh]

I do have the 5e basic starter kit... Didn't really like it to much but I think I may show him those books and see if he wants to sit down and we go over it.

I have been a dm for little bit using 5e, I grew up in 3.5e and it will always be my first love plus a few hundred dollars into it.

[Jervis]

I do have the 5e basic starter kit... Didn't really like it to much but I think I may show him those books and see if he wants to sit down and we go over it.

I have been a dm for little bit using 5e, I grew up in 3.5e and it will always be my first love plus a few hundred dollars into it.

One thing I do like about 5e is that it’s more resistant than most to bad and or restrictive GMs. Even if they go core only no feats that leave moon Druid, light cleric, and illusion wizard.

[Akal Saris]

How about a duskblade from PHBII? They are an easy-to-build gish character with some solid casting, but they can also work perfectly well if silenced or in an AMF, and their best ability comes at level 13, so even with the one PrC restriction you can run something like Duskblade 15/Abjurant Champion 5.

[Troacctid]

Table over text is by far the superior way to run prestige class spellcasting advancement. I'm sorry, but it's true. Literally every prestige class with a table/text disagreement in its casting progression works better if you use the table. Every one of them.

My suggestion would be to build a character for the game you have instead of pining over the game you wish you had. So, for starters, you can forget about having 16 BAB and 17 CL, because it's never going to happen. I'd say that building a level 20 character for a level 5 game is a rookie mistake, but I see veteran players do it all the time, so I guess it's just a regular mistake. Your campaign is not going to run to level 20. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.

As for what to play, if you like cleric, I see no reason why you shouldn't play cleric. Animate dead generates AMF-proof soldiers. Go wild. Maybe shoot for a martial prestige class like ordained champion or shadowbane stalker. Or not. Whatever.

[Rleonardh]

That's actually what I'm doing lol, along side talking to him about 5e.
Duskblade champion.

And even though it can be a mistake to plan a one through 20 level character, to me it's a bigger mistake not to know what you plan to do at all, sometimes having a plan or outline of what you want can keep you on track.

[H_H_F_F]

Table over text is by far the superior way to run prestige class spellcasting advancement. I'm sorry, but it's true. Literally every prestige class with a table/text disagreement in its casting progression works better if you use the table. Every one of them.

Well, except the big one, of course. Rainbows all the way.

[Troacctid]

Well, except the big one, of course. Rainbows all the way.
Nope, the class plays much better when there is a real tradeoff involved. I stand by my statement.

[H_H_F_F]

Nope, the class plays much better when there is a real tradeoff involved. I stand by my statement.

Oh, I misunderstood what you meant by "works better".

[Jervis]

Nope, the class plays much better when there is a real tradeoff involved. I stand by my statement.

I disagree. I’m a firm believer that the excessive CL cutting in the table makes rainbow servant pretty bad outside of one specific interaction, which only comes on line the same level wizards get wish. It’s why the only build that ever uses it is some variation of warsnake like necrosnake and glamarsnake (or beguiling snake/illusion snake, whichever term you prefer). Very few classes give you anything worth giving up more than a CL or two.

As a side note I also disagree that all classes are better ran off the table, classic example being Zhentarim Sky Mage who gets two more bonus feats than they otherwise would.

[D+1]

I do have a copy of the 3.5 DMG errata pdf. It's all of two pages but begins by stating clearly what to do when there is disagreement in the rules.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.So, unless a specific, official errata document says otherwise, the official rules regarding errata are:

Text trumps table entries
Individual spell description trumps the short descriptions elsewhere
The PH trumps MM and DMG on general game play rules, PC racial information, class descriptions, etc.
The DMG trumps PH and MM regarding magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, etc.
The MM trumps PH and DMG regarding monster descriptions, templates, abilities, etc.


What no official errata document ever says is that the DM doesn't have to accept the official errata, the official rules, official anything. DM's with the attitude of, "My way or the highway," are typically going to have a lot of unhappy players and/or HIGH player turnover. But in any case remember this - if the DM wants to win - they win. Rules won't stop that. Errata won't change it.

[Jervis]

I do have a copy of the 3.5 DMG errata pdf. It's all of two pages but begins by stating clearly what to do when there is disagreement in the rules.So, unless a specific, official errata document says otherwise, the official rules regarding errata are:

Text trumps table entries
Individual spell description trumps the short descriptions elsewhere
The PH trumps MM and DMG on general game play rules, PC racial information, class descriptions, etc.
The DMG trumps PH and MM regarding magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, etc.
The MM trumps PH and DMG regarding monster descriptions, templates, abilities, etc.


What no official errata document ever says is that the DM doesn't have to accept the official errata, the official rules, official anything. DM's with the attitude of, "My way or the highway," are typically going to have a lot of unhappy players and/or HIGH player turnover. But in any case remember this - if the DM wants to win - they win. Rules won't stop that. Errata won't change it.

The text trumps table thing was also stated in the errata of Complete Divine, the book most infamous for this happening. The flaw also wasn’t corrected so it’s hard to tell. I would also argue that it’s difficult to say which one was meant to be the final product. I know that’s cliché to say but really I make quite a bit of homebrew and it’s just as easy to put the correct information in the table and copy past the spellcasting advancement section from another class without fixing it as it is to change something in the text after you changed your mind on the balance point and forget to change the table. RAW it’s pretty unarguable where the books stand but I won’t blame a DM for ruling differently, Some stupid things show up in both text trumps table and table trumps text (hellooooo 1d43 weapons). The other rules he imposed though make me think that he’s the sort of DM that would ban someone for bringing a build that wouldn’t get you laughed out of a iron chef competition to a game.

[Rleonardh]

Druid 3/wizard 3/ arcane hierophant 6
For a level 12 build.

Yes I know dragon 325 magazin however no dm or myself use the magazines. I know some of you do for min max.

But this question is this be used decently as say 5th party member if the other 4 roles are filled?
Tank
Skill
Divine
Arcane
Instead of bard this chr?

[Maat Mons]

Druid 3 / Wizard 3 doesn't qualify for Arcane Hierophant. You need base attack bonus +4, but you've only got +3.

And Arcane Hierophant is from Races of the Wild, which isn't among the books you said you can use.

[Rleonardh]

Yah for him I can't lol
I do have all the books though.
Didn't see the +4 Bab
This more a thought exercise.

Druid 3
Wizard 3
Mystic theurge 2
Than arcane hierophant 4