monsters a level 20 fighter with no magic gear can fight.

[vasilidor]

The thought in my head is what can a character at level 20 face without magic items?
How much of a characters power comes from wealth by level?
what can nonmagical characters face without magic items to help and hope to win?

[ciopo]

Nothing with significant DR, nothing incorporeal, arguably nothing flying. No swarms either. Are you asking what CR monster are "above target" for a no-magic to deal with?

Gut feeling beasties of around cr 9, so long that they aren't with one of the above, right now I can't think of other broad "nothing X" categories.

"Target saves" is probably another one, seeing how more than 50% of my saves are from spells (just mass conviction + greater/superior resistance)

[Jervis]

Nothing with significant DR, nothing incorporeal, arguably nothing flying. No swarms either. Are you asking what CR monster are "above target" for a no-magic to deal with?

Gut feeling beasties of around cr 9, so long that they aren't with one of the above, right now I can't think of other broad "nothing X" categories.

"Target saves" is probably another one, seeing how more than 50% of my saves are from spells (just mass conviction + greater/superior resistance)

I mean don’t fighters usually carry a composite longbow on them? At least I usually do. Not optimal but a suboptimal option is better than no option at all

[Doctor Despair]

Nothing with significant DR,

Eh, high strength shock troopers can break DR pretty effectively.


nothing incorporeal

Riverine is mundane ghost touch. Likewise, serrenwood elvencraft bows (or whatever the one is that you can use as a club).


arguably nothing flying.

Bows, or just have mundane flight. Lots of races have wings.


No swarms either.

AOE mundane attacks aren't that hard to come by.

[JNAProductions]

I mean don’t fighters usually carry a composite longbow on them? At least I usually do. Not optimal but a suboptimal option is better than no option at all

An Old Silver Dragon (CR 20) has DR 10/Magic. We'll use them.
Their AC is 35.

I will assume that the Fighter has 20 Strength at level one, and is now at Strength 24. They've got a Masterwork Composite (+7) Longbow, and a decent Dexterity (say, 16). That means their attack routine is +24/19/14/9, for 1d8+7 damage. Crits do X3 damage.

They need an 11/16/20/20 to hit the dragon, and deal 1.875 damage on average per hit, 24.5 on a crit. With hit rates of 50%/25%/5%/5%, they average .77 hits per turn, .08 crits.
That's 1.44375 plus 1.96 damage per full attack, or 3.40375 DPR.
Against the 350 HP of an Old Silver Dragon, it would take them just over 100 rounds (10 minutes) to kill them. Just over 400 arrows would be used.

A Black Dragon Wyrm (CR 20) has DR 20/Magic. We'll check them too.
Their AC is 39.

Same assumptions on the Fighter.

They need a 15/20/20/20 to hit the dragon, and deal no damage without a crit, 14.5 on a crit. With crit rates of 1.5%/.25%/.25%/.25%, they average .0225 crits per turn, and some number of entirely irrelevant hits.
That's .32625 damage per full attack, same number as DPR.
Against the 459 HP of a Black Dragon Wyrm, it would take them just over 1,400 rounds (14 minutes) to kill them. Over 5,600 arrows would be used.

Every 20 Arrows weigh 3 lbs.
To carry the ammo needed as a Heavy Load, you'd need a Strength of 26+.
As a Medium Load, 29+.
As a Light Load, 34+.

Put another way, a magicless Fighter versus a Black Dragon Wyrm could literally carry nothing but their bow (3 lbs) and 4,646 arrows (which would be JUST SHY of their maximum load they can walk with-don't ask me how they're carrying it all!) and they still would not, on average, kill the dragon if the dragon literally just stood there and let themselves get shot.

[pabelfly]

The thought in my head is what can a character at level 20 face without magic items?
How much of a characters power comes from wealth by level?
what can nonmagical characters face without magic items to help and hope to win?

If this is an actual game situation, presuming we're talking about a mundane martial character, the easiest answer is another level 20 mundane martial. The other character wants to duel them for personal honour and doesn't want to worry about "all that magical rubbish".

[vasilidor]

I do think that there are nonmagical tools that can be used to deal with or protect oneself from swarms, and bow exist for fliers. However I do admit that those tools are almost always 3rd party and limited in actual use. the effectiveness of bows would be determined by the level of optimization.

[vasilidor]

An Old Silver Dragon (CR 20) has DR 10/Magic. We'll use them.
Their AC is 35.

I will assume that the Fighter has 20 Strength at level one, and is now at Strength 24. They've got a Masterwork Composite (+7) Longbow, and a decent Dexterity (say, 16). That means their attack routine is +24/19/14/9, for 1d8+7 damage. Crits do X3 damage.

They need an 11/16/20/20 to hit the dragon, and deal 1.875 damage on average per hit, 24.5 on a crit. With hit rates of 50%/25%/5%/5%, they average .77 hits per turn, .08 crits.
That's 1.44375 plus 1.96 damage per full attack, or 3.40375 DPR.
Against the 350 HP of an Old Silver Dragon, it would take them just over 100 rounds (10 minutes) to kill them. Just over 400 arrows would be used.

A Black Dragon Wyrm (CR 20) has DR 20/Magic. We'll check them too.
Their AC is 39.

Same assumptions on the Fighter.

They need a 15/20/20/20 to hit the dragon, and deal no damage without a crit, 14.5 on a crit. With crit rates of 1.5%/.25%/.25%/.25%, they average .0225 crits per turn, and some number of entirely irrelevant hits.
That's .32625 damage per full attack, same number as DPR.
Against the 459 HP of a Black Dragon Wyrm, it would take them just over 1,400 rounds (14 minutes) to kill them. Over 5,600 arrows would be used.

Every 20 Arrows weigh 3 lbs.
To carry the ammo needed as a Heavy Load, you'd need a Strength of 26+.
As a Medium Load, 29+.
As a Light Load, 34+.

Put another way, a magicless Fighter versus a Black Dragon Wyrm could literally carry nothing but their bow (3 lbs) and 4,646 arrows (which would be JUST SHY of their maximum load they can walk with-don't ask me how they're carrying it all!) and they still would not, on average, kill the dragon if the dragon literally just stood there and let themselves get shot.
This puts CR 20 dragons out of the range of what a fighter of level 20 could deal with.
but could they deal with, say, a CR 15 dragon? or a CR 10? how far down do we have to go with the fighter with those same assumption before one can reasonably say that he can win?

[JNAProductions]

This puts CR 20 dragons out of the range of what a fighter of level 20 could deal with.
but could they deal with, say, a CR 15 dragon? or a CR 10? how far down do we have to go with the fighter with those same assumption before one can reasonably say that he can win?

Mature Adult Black Dragon is DR 10/Magic, AC 29, 253 HP at CR 14.

1.875 damage per hit
24.5 damage per crit
Hits on a 5/10/15/20
1.615 hits per turn, .085 crits
Also I think I messed up my Silver Dragon math, but the Black Dragon math was funnier.
3.028125+2.0825=5.110625 DPR
Just under 50 rounds to kill them.

[Biggus]

How much of a characters power comes from wealth by level?


Funnily enough, I did a test for this only the other week. I had a level 20 Barbarian with PC WBL and fairly generic feats and items (feats like Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, items mostly stuff like stat-boosters, initiative boosters, AC boosters, nothing complicated) fight multiple versions of himself who were identical except they had only masterwork items. It turned out that the with-magic guy was roughly equal to three without-magic ones, which means their CR was 3 lower than his.

Items making up about one-sixth to one-seventh of your CR, rounded down (assuming PC WBL) sounds intuitively about right to me but I don't know how well it generalises to other levels and classes.

[tyckspoon]

This puts CR 20 dragons out of the range of what a fighter of level 20 could deal with.
but could they deal with, say, a CR 15 dragon? or a CR 10? how far down do we have to go with the fighter with those same assumption before one can reasonably say that he can win?

Dragons are a bit weird to do this with, despite being very iconic, because they're so variable depending on which specific type and age you pick, but...

an Adult Red is nominally CR 15. 29 AC, 253 average HP, and crucially for our poor Fighter, it hasn't grown into it's DR/10 yet; it's only DR 5. He can shoot this down in a sane amount of time. (Whether or not he's liable to survive the dragon attacking him back is a different question, and I think the answer is probably 'no, he's breath attack bait/dies because the Full Attacking dragon puts out wayyyy more damage in melee and he has no way to get relevant AC', but just in a target dummy assessment ..)

More broadly, it looks like pretty much all standard Monster Manual dragons get DR 10 at Mature Adult stage. So the Fighter can theoretically use his mundane bow to deal relevant damage against Adult or younger dragons.

[Biggus]

an Adult Red is nominally CR 15

Nominally is the key word here. Oddly enough, I also recently did a survey of dragons comparing their listed CR to other monsters of the same theoretical CR, and discovered that on average, across all types and age categories, true dragons are under-CR'd by one point. Many are under by two points, especially at higher age categories.

[Crake]

Eh, high strength shock troopers can break DR pretty effectively.

Plenty of DR comes from munane-only sources anyway, and even then, there are mundane materials that can bypass all sorts of DR, for example Cyrite can bypass DR/Magic and Flametouched Iron can bypass DR/Good.


Riverine is mundane ghost touch. Likewise, serrenwood elvencraft bows (or whatever the one is that you can use as a club).

Serrenwood is definitely mundane ghost touch, riverine I wouldn't call mundane, it's literally magicked wall of forces shaped like a sword. Definitely magical.

[AvatarVecna]

Dragons are a bit weird to do this with, despite being very iconic, because they're so variable depending on which specific type and age you pick, but...

I'd argue that dragons are actually pretty good to use for stuff like this. They might be under-CR'd in general, but even Core-only True Dragons is 120 monsters we can compare with on just a few pages. But I also think we can do a touch better for our Fighter.

So, I've got a few notes.

1) Rolled attributes can get you some pretty big stats. It's not super-likely, but it's possible that you can get Str 18/Dex 18 pre-race. So let's go with that.

2) I'm not saying this is the end-all-be-all of Fighter capabilities, but like...JNA's fighter doesn't have any feats. Not even anything from the Weapon Focus line. Generally a pretty garbage feat tree, but let's go ahead and fill out the feats. Nothing too fancy, but literally more than nothing. Maybe an exotic bow?

3) There's mundane materials that can help us against most monsters. I mean, since we're not sinking tons of money into magic items, why not, right? Cyrite can bypass DR/magic (although it's pretty tied to its specific setting), but Adamantine and Silver weapons/ammo are pretty useful. I'll skip the Cyrite and depend on the rest of things to do enough damage to beat DR/magic.

5) We're lvl 20. Let's go ahead and get some LA Buyoff! We can get LA +3 while still being able to reach lvl 20 pre-epic. Let's go Half-Dragon Raptoran - that also gets us Ex Flight and Footbow proficiency (for Str mod x1.5 to dmg).



Half-Dragon Raptoran

Str 27/Dex 22

Feats:

HD 1: Point-Blank Shot
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (Footbow)
Flaw 1: Precise Shot
Flaw 1: Quick Draw
Fighter 2: Far Shot
HD 3: Rapid Shot
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Footbow)
HD 6: Improved Initiative
Fighter 6: Manyshot
Fighter 8: Improved Critical (Footbow)
HD 9: Improved Rapid Shot
Fighter 10: Greater Weapon Focus (Footbow)
HD 12: Improved Precise Shot
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Footbow)
Fighter 14: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
HD 15: Dead Eye
Fighter 16: [dealer's choice]
HD 18: [dealer's choice]
Fighter 18: Weapon Supremacy (Footbow)
Fighter 20: [dealer's choice]


Items:

Dwarvencraft Footbow (Str +8)
Tons of arrows with Serrenwood shafts and adamantine/silver/etc heads



Attack Routine: +32/+32/+27/+22/+17 (+5 to one of the last three), 1d8+25 (19-20/x3)

(Admittedly, attack is -1 and damage is -7 outside of point-blank range. But still.)

Great Wyrm Black Dragon has DR 20/magic, AC 42, and 536 HP. We'll go +32/+32/+32/+22/+17. Over the course of 400 attacks, +32 will miss 180 times, hit 198 times, and crit 22 times. After DR, this would deal a total of 264d8+1320; this averages a total of 2508, or 6.27 damage per attack. over the course of 400 attacks, +22 and +17 would miss 380 times, hit 19 times, and crit 1 time. After DR, this would deal a total of 22d8+550; this averages a total of 649, or 1.6225 damage per attack. Thus, a full attack will average 22.055 damage per round, and it will take the fighter 25 rounds to kill the dragon.

Wyrm Black Dragon has DR 20/magic, AC 39, and 459 HP. We'll go +32/+32/+27/+22/+22. Long story short, the same math as above leads us to 25.65 DPR, taking 18 rounds to kill the dragon.

Ancient Black Dragon has DR 15/magic, AC 38, and 387 HP. We'll go +32/+32/+27/+22/+22. Long story short, the same math as above leads us to 43.5 DPR, taking 9 rounds to kill the dragon.

Very Old Black Dragon? 7 rounds.

Old Black Dragon? 4 rounds.

Mature Adult Black Dragon? 3 rounds.

I'll go ahead and stop there. Mature Adult is "CR 14" (realistically ~15 or 16 equivalent?), and that's about the point where the dragon fighting back, maybe leaving point-blank range, won't absolutely ruin the fighter. Magic bonuses to things will give the fighter much better attack and damage and other stats, but even without it a focused archer is rather dangerous. If we could count on access to Cyrite arrowheads, even a Great Worm Gold only has 12 rounds to live (down from 36). DR/magic is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the dragon's safety.

[Mechalich]

I'd argue that dragons are actually pretty good to use for stuff like this. They might be under-CR'd in general, but even Core-only True Dragons is 120 monsters we can compare with on just a few pages. But I also think we can do a touch better for our Fighter.

The problem is that dragons have spells and spell-like abilities, which drastically increase their abilities and variability. For example, your calculation does not appear to have factored in Frightful Presence. Your archer has no boosts to Will saves, so even if they're spotted a Wis 14, their Will Save is +8. An Ancient Black Dragon has a frightful presence DC of 25, so the Fighter needs a 17 to avoid spending the entire encounter Shaken. That probably doesn't happen, and a -2 to attacks and damage is going to absolutely crush their DPR.

[Crake]

After DR, this would deal a total of...

Just use cyrite tipped arrows and completely ignore the DR.

[AvatarVecna]

Just use cyrite tipped arrows and completely ignore the DR.

Literally mentioned it multiple times, first that I'm not using it because it's pretty setting-specific, and second that if it were used it does trivialize dragons in particular.


Cyrite can bypass DR/magic (although it's pretty tied to its specific setting), but Adamantine and Silver weapons/ammo are pretty useful. I'll skip the Cyrite and depend on the rest of things to do enough damage to beat DR/magic.


If we could count on access to Cyrite arrowheads, even a Great Worm Gold only has 12 rounds to live (down from 36). DR/magic is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the dragon's safety.

I'll also go into greater detail on why I think it's too setting-specific: it's not just rocks that were dug up in Eberron (that could just be "Faerun dwarves haven't dug deep enough to find it"), it's a special mined material that was also warped by whatever the hell happened to turn Cyre into the Mournlands - an unspecified large-scale magical mini-apocalypse. It's probably fair to say that such a Fighter 20 in Eberron would definitely work to get access to arrowheads of the material, but it's a much more difficult proposition for a Fighter from Faerun to get their hands on an Eberron material, or for a DM to justify having such a material be native to a non-Eberron campaign world. It's not technically illegal, since the DM can do whatever they want, but I'm also not going to pretend it's a perfect "one size fits all" solution like you are.

[Particle_Man]

Because a lot of people have mentioned them, is the OP allowing this fighter to have access to special materials? What other “not magic but not realistally mundane” things would the OP allow? I mean technically psionic items are not magic items but I assume the OP probably would not allow them for the purpose of this thought experiment.

[Crake]

I'll also go into greater detail on why I think it's too setting-specific: it's not just rocks that were dug up in Eberron (that could just be "Faerun dwarves haven't dug deep enough to find it"), it's a special mined material that was also warped by whatever the hell happened to turn Cyre into the Mournlands - an unspecified large-scale magical mini-apocalypse. It's probably fair to say that such a Fighter 20 in Eberron would definitely work to get access to arrowheads of the material, but it's a much more difficult proposition for a Fighter from Faerun to get their hands on an Eberron material, or for a DM to justify having such a material be native to a non-Eberron campaign world. It's not technically illegal, since the DM can do whatever they want, but I'm also not going to pretend it's a perfect "one size fits all" solution like you are.

Was going through my list of special materials, and pretty much everything that overcomes DR (aside from the standard cold iron, silver and adamantite) is from eberron. There's a couple exceptions, like Kheferu and frystalline, but most of them like flametouched iron, cyrite, calomal, and targath are all from eberron.

[ciopo]

Eh, high strength shock troopers can break DR pretty effectively.

Riverine is mundane ghost touch. Likewise, serrenwood elvencraft bows (or whatever the one is that you can use as a club).

Bows, or just have mundane flight. Lots of races have wings.

AOE mundane attacks aren't that hard to come by.

I was about to go to bed so my answer was hasty and not in depth.

Now I'm about to go to work so my answer will be hasty and not in depth :) but in order:

I said arguarbly on the flying because of course bows. Most racial flight doesn't cut it on keeping up with either the speed or the manouverability of (target CR to be determinated). Of course we can build for it and I plan to have a think later.

Serrenwood costs, uh, 4000 or so? I would qualify that as "solving problem with money" but I'm not the op and it's a perfectly valid choice besides (aka "I'm not trying to move the goalpost")

I'm unconvinced about swarms. Sure, the CR 1-2 ones we can deal with a torch or alchemical stuff, but the bigger swarms? I'm doubtful but I don't have swarms other than hellwasp under hand.

DR is the simplest to somewhat still bypass by doing "enough damage at once" by common martial optimization, agreed on that. Only nitpick that optimization kinda competes woth dealing effectively with flying.

Another one I though in the meantime is "nothing invisible".

My gut feeling remains around CR 9, which I am cognizant I'm probably lowballing hard, but I don't have the time to make a stub and guessstimate how it would do against "averages of the CR"

Coffee break! Let's have a think
Handy averages : https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623578-3-5-Average-Monster-Stats-UPDATED-TABLE

Napkin shocktrooper not at all evaluated in details :
Neanderthal fighter 20
24 str 12dex 18 con 12 wis
Hp 195 or so
AC 19 or so
Saves 16 7 7

Dealing probably 80 or so damage on a charge? Very napkin here

Ignoring special qualities/atracks/su and sla, at a glance the watershed moment for beating beatsticks is between cr 14 and 15?

[Mechalich]

Ignoring special qualities/atracks/su and sla, at a glance the watershed moment for beating beatsticks is between cr 14 and 15?

The number of high CR beatstick monsters is fairly small.

Storm Giant is maybe a good benchmark. CR 13, HP 199, AC 27, Full Attack +26/+21/+16 (4d6+21), no SLAs of particular consequence (sure it can Chain Lightning for 15d6, but this probably isn't worth it). The giant can power attack though, which is consequential against a low AC build.

[Eldan]

An Old Silver Dragon (CR 20) has DR 10/Magic. We'll use them.
Their AC is 35.

I will assume that the Fighter has 20 Strength at level one, and is now at Strength 24. They've got a Masterwork Composite (+7) Longbow, and a decent Dexterity (say, 16). That means their attack routine is +24/19/14/9, for 1d8+7 damage. Crits do X3 damage.

They need an 11/16/20/20 to hit the dragon, and deal 1.875 damage on average per hit, 24.5 on a crit. With hit rates of 50%/25%/5%/5%, they average .77 hits per turn, .08 crits.
That's 1.44375 plus 1.96 damage per full attack, or 3.40375 DPR.
Against the 350 HP of an Old Silver Dragon, it would take them just over 100 rounds (10 minutes) to kill them. Just over 400 arrows would be used.

A Black Dragon Wyrm (CR 20) has DR 20/Magic. We'll check them too.
Their AC is 39.

Same assumptions on the Fighter.

They need a 15/20/20/20 to hit the dragon, and deal no damage without a crit, 14.5 on a crit. With crit rates of 1.5%/.25%/.25%/.25%, they average .0225 crits per turn, and some number of entirely irrelevant hits.
That's .32625 damage per full attack, same number as DPR.
Against the 459 HP of a Black Dragon Wyrm, it would take them just over 1,400 rounds (14 minutes) to kill them. Over 5,600 arrows would be used.

Every 20 Arrows weigh 3 lbs.
To carry the ammo needed as a Heavy Load, you'd need a Strength of 26+.
As a Medium Load, 29+.
As a Light Load, 34+.

Put another way, a magicless Fighter versus a Black Dragon Wyrm could literally carry nothing but their bow (3 lbs) and 4,646 arrows (which would be JUST SHY of their maximum load they can walk with-don't ask me how they're carrying it all!) and they still would not, on average, kill the dragon if the dragon literally just stood there and let themselves get shot.

And the Dragon just has to cast a defensive spell or two, even something simple like Mage Armor or Wind Wall, and it becomes even more pointless.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho we need to optimize the lvl 20 fighter a bit for this:

- Raptoran (+0 LA race that can fly)
- Vow of Poverty (to get some statboosts)
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Superior Unarmed Strike
- Ubercharger (Power Attack, Shock Trooper, (Gr.) Cleave..)
- (Incorporeal Target Fighting feat)
...

A build like this should be able to still dominate against most non caster monsters in combat. If this is for theoretical 1vs1 situations, improving Initiative is also a big deal.

[noce]

The thought in my head is what can a character at level 20 face without magic items?
How much of a characters power comes from wealth by level?
what can nonmagical characters face without magic items to help and hope to win?

I started looking at the SRD, going from CR 20 to lower CRs, trying to find the highest CR monster a typical fighter 20 could beat.

Well, a typical fighter 20 is a melee dude, so I'd exclude flying monsters (others have pointed out he can use a bow, but I'm trying to put the fighter in the most favorable circumstances).
This excludes dragons and flying outsiders.

First monsters a fighter could challenge toe to toe are CR 17: Marilith, Formian Queen, Frost Giant Jarl.
Marilith has 9 attacks per round, DR 10, Unholy Aura with DC 25...next.
Formian Queen casts as a sorcerer 17, I'd say the fighter has no chance.

Frost Giant Jarl doesn't have strong spells or SLAs, has good hp and AC but no DR. I think a well built fighter 20 could survive the fight, but it would be a very difficult challenge since the giant has good attack bonus, good damage and power attack, while the fighter will have at best 21 AC with a mithral full plate. Anyone interested in building a fighter capable of beating a Frost Giant Jarl? (ok, apart from a raptoran with a longbow! I mean a melee fighter)

For CR 16, Greater Stone Golem has a DC 17 slow every two rounds as a free action, lasting 7 rounds, so the fighter would be permaslowed against a heavish hitting monster with DR 10.

CR 15 we have Marut with its DR 15, AC 34 and Fast healing 10. Then Mummy Lord, which has Air Walk and many nasty spells.

CR 14, finally, Werewolf Lord should be doable for most fighters by level 20.

[Maat Mons]

I like the winged ubercharger angle.

How nonmagical does this need to be? Are Dragonborn ruled out because the ritual to become one involves magic? Are (lesser) Aasimar ruled out because they have SLAs?

How much can we lean on alchemical items? A triple weapon capsule retainer loaded with Ghostblight, Quicksilver, and... lets say Trollbane... is a handy tool to have.

Is there a good way to get Pounce and reliable swift-action movement on a single-classed Fighter?

[AvatarVecna]

Was going through my list of special materials, and pretty much everything that overcomes DR (aside from the standard cold iron, silver and adamantite) is from eberron. There's a couple exceptions, like Kheferu and frystalline, but most of them like flametouched iron, cyrite, calomal, and targath are all from eberron.

First off, I think there's a difference between "is in a setting-specific book" and "is inextricably tied to the setting it's in". Lots of setting-specific Feats are generic garbage you could slot into any game without much trouble. But some of the eberron materials definitely fall into the latter camp in my mind: cyrite is created by that unknown magical event, byeshk bypasses the DR of daelkyr, and Targath bypasses the DR of Deathless. Those monsters don't even exist outside Eberron, so even if the material did, why would you want it? As for flametouched iron, frystalline is generic and does the same job. Calomal doesn't really have that problem: but for the fact that it's mined in Argonessen, it's not really tied to the setting, not the way the others are; it's just a rock somebody dug up. I'd probably be mostly fine with that one being used in other settings. I just feel weird assuming, sight unseen, that a material created by an event where nobody knows how it happened or how to do it again can just show up in other worlds without something like an Eberron-to-Faerun trade agreement or whatever. It sucks to not have Cyrite, but I bet there's some alchemical stuff we can screw around with to help bridge that gap, and we can get pretty good damage for bypassing DR/magic anyway. It's not perfect, but even bypassing it entirely wasn't gonna let us kill those DR 20/magic dragons quickly enough to matter - they're just too dangerous if they're fighting back, at least for a Fighter 20 with no magic items.

Secondly, "pretty much everything besides the core materials that bypass DR" is a near-meaningless phrase. I'll fully admit that I've not done the math on this, but I'm fairly certain that "only" having access to adamantine, silver, and cold iron as materials for the purposes of bypassing DR...will bypass most DR that materials are even capable of bypassing. The core three and then frystalline covers basically all the DRs materials can actually bypass that we care about. Setting specific monsters? Eh. "Whatever DR a creature with the fire or earth subtype have"? Eh. Cyrite is the only one we'd miss, and that's basically just because of dragons. There's a lot of DRs we still can't really bypass, but we couldn't bypass those even if we had every material on ever arrow anyway. And those generic four are still gonna cover most DRs out there anyway. DR/evil is probably the biggest one we're missing, and that's mostly if we were wanting to attack celestials. Heck, RotW has arrows that deal slashing damage, so even DR/slashing can be dealt with. (Technically, it also has bludgeoning arrows, but those are also nonlethal damage only, so...hrm.)

Thirdly...what's even your argument here? "The fighter should be allowed to use extremely setting-specific materials outside of that setting, because...because please"? We could make that argument about lots of stuff. Would be great if our Fighter could use the Craft skill to get cheaper alchemical items making them himself, but alas.


I like the winged ubercharger angle.

How nonmagical does this need to be? Are Dragonborn ruled out because the ritual to become one involves magic? Are (lesser) Aasimar ruled out because they have SLAs?

How much can we lean on alchemical items? A triple weapon capsule retainer loaded with Ghostblight, Quicksilver, and... lets say Trollbane... is a handy tool to have.

Is there a good way to get Pounce and reliable swift-action movement on a single-classed Fighter?

AFAIK, alchemical items aren't magical, they just require a mage to create. I guess the counterargument to that is "if you're able to buy stuff from mages that isn't magic items, why not buy spellcasting services", which is technically following the letter of the challenge but I think it violates the spirit?

[Telonius]

There's a big difference between "A 20th-level Fighter" and "This 20th-level Fighter." You can optimize a Fighter to this challenge specifically (like Gruftzwerg did) - just making them Raptoran alone would overturn the (very important) "can't handle flying things" assumption. The answers to the OP questions will be very different if you look at a benchmark, vanilla fighter, versus a "what can you do" fighter optimized to the challenge.

[pabelfly]

So I had a go at building a Level 20 Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree. I think it's decent given all the restrictions the build concept has in place but I'd appreciate other critiques.

Bob, Level 20 Unseelie Fey Human Fighter

Build Assumptions:
We have four combats per day.
We need to reach Fighter 20. No dips, no LA, no racial hit dice.
We want to be a melee fighter.
We need some form of flight. Not to cheese combat against an opponent without flight, but because a melee character needs that option when many high-level opponents can fly.

Stats
11/17/12/10/12/10 (Level 1)
15/30/18/10/14/10 (Level 20)

Feats:
H: Sacred Vow
1: Vow of Poverty
Flaw: Travel Devotion
Flaw: Travel Devotion
F1: Weapon Finesse
F2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Travel Devotion
F4: Martial Study
F6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
6: Travel Devotion
F8: Martial Stance
9: Animal Devotion
F10: Shadow Blade
F12: Resolute ACF
12: Animal Devotion
F14: Weapon Focus
15: Animal Devotion
F16: Weapon Specialization
18: Animal Devotion
F18: Melee Weapon Mastery
F20: Greater Weapon Focus

At level 20, we have swift-action movement for 1 minute, 4 times a day, and 60ft flight (average) for 1 minute, 4 times a day.

Attack Rolls
20 BAB + 10 DEX + 5 Item + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Greater Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Mastery – 2 Two-Weapon Fighting
37/37/32/32/27/27/22

Damage
1d4 (Dagger) + 10 DEX + 1 or 2 STR + 5 Item + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Mastery
1d4 + 20

Assuming an opponent with 40 AC, that's roughly 90 damage a turn before damage reduction.

HP – 194
AC – 35 (10 DEX + 10 Exalted + 3 Deflection + 2 Natural)
Saves – 19/18/11 (Resolute ACF can turn Will into 21)

As with any TWF/MWF builds, the main issue will be enemies with damage reduction taking away a good chunk of build damage.

[Jack_Simth]

So I had a go at building a Level 20 Fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree. I think it's decent given all the restrictions the build concept has in place but I'd appreciate other critiques.

Bob, Level 20 Unseelie Fey Human Fighter

Build Assumptions:
We have four combats per day.
We need to reach Fighter 20. No dips, no LA, no racial hit dice.
We want to be a melee fighter.
We need some form of flight. Not to cheese combat against an opponent without flight, but because a melee character needs that option when many high-level opponents can fly.

Stats
11/17/12/10/12/10 (Level 1)
15/30/18/10/14/10 (Level 20)

Feats:
H: Sacred Vow
1: Vow of Poverty
Flaw: Travel Devotion
Flaw: Travel Devotion
F1: Weapon Finesse
F2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Travel Devotion
F4: Martial Study
F6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
6: Travel Devotion
F8: Martial Stance
9: Animal Devotion
F10: Shadow Blade
F12: Resolute ACF
12: Animal Devotion
F14: Weapon Focus
15: Animal Devotion
F16: Weapon Specialization
18: Animal Devotion
F18: Melee Weapon Mastery
F20: Greater Weapon Focus

At level 20, we have swift-action movement for 1 minute, 4 times a day, and 60ft flight (average) for 1 minute, 4 times a day.

Attack Rolls
20 BAB + 10 DEX + 5 Item + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Greater Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Mastery – 2 Two-Weapon Fighting
37/37/32/32/27/27/22

Damage
1d6 (Short Sword) + 10 DEX + 1 or 2 STR + 5 Item + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Mastery
1d6 + 20

Assuming an opponent with 40 AC, that's roughly 90 damage a turn before damage reduction.

HP – 194
AC – 35 (10 DEX + 10 Exalted + 3 Deflection + 2 Natural)
Saves – 19/18/11 (Resolute ACF can turn Will into 21)

As with any TWF/MWF builds, the main issue will be enemies with damage reduction taking away a good chunk of build damage.

Wrong weapon. VoP restricts to simple, shortsword is martial.

[pabelfly]

Wrong weapon. VoP restricts to simple, shortsword is martial.

I'll change it to a dagger then, I only lose 1 damage per attack. Good pickup

[Doctor Despair]

Unseeley Fey has SLAs. Wouldn't that be illegal?

[pabelfly]

Unseeley Fey has SLAs. Wouldn't that be illegal?

Depends how much you want to argue that a spell-like ability is an actual spell and thus magic. I mainly picked it for the free +2 to DEX and am fine with not actually using any of the spell-like abilities.

[ciopo]

to be honest, since the "cost" of vow of poverty is "all your wealth", using it is hardly indicative of what we would be doing without magic items.
Might as well tack on the pathfidner automatic bonus progression at that point, but it's kinda "I'll pretend I'm not using items" instead of "I'm factually not using items"

It's a "d'uh, of course I'll take vow of poverty" in such a challenge but kinda goes against the spirit of the thing, no?

[Jervis]

Are any non magical items allowed? Because OA has a weapon that gives a non-magical +2 enhancement bonus because it has superior nipon steel tm. Would that be acceptable?

[pabelfly]

to be honest, since the "cost" of vow of poverty is "all your wealth", using it is hardly indicative of what we would be doing without magic items.
Might as well tack on the pathfidner automatic bonus progression at that point, but it's kinda "I'll pretend I'm not using items" instead of "I'm factually not using items"

It's a "d'uh, of course I'll take vow of poverty" in such a challenge but kinda goes against the spirit of the thing, no?

I can see that argument. However, besides giving up two feats, I also give up nonmagic items that are useful - armor and armor materials, all weapons that aren't simple weapons, all weapon materials, etc. The cost in this specific situation isn't zero, but it's a lot less than normal.

I could have a go at building something without Vow of Poverty and see what I can do with that

[JNAProductions]

I can see that argument. However, besides giving up two feats, I also give up nonmagic items that are useful - armor and armor materials, all weapons that aren't simple weapons, all weapon materials, etc. The cost in this specific situation isn't zero, but it's a lot less than normal.

I could have a go at building something without Vow of Poverty and see what I can do with that

Eh... I'm on the side of "Vow of Poverty is against the spirit of the challenge."

I'm also curious-does anyone have any existing level 20 Fighters, with gear, sitting around? How would they do if all their gear was replaced with just Masterwork (but non-magical) versions of the same?

[noob]

I do think that there are nonmagical tools that can be used to deal with or protect oneself from swarms, and bow exist for fliers. However I do admit that those tools are almost always 3rd party and limited in actual use. the effectiveness of bows would be determined by the level of optimization.

there is the sandblaster which allows to hit aoe and thus deal with swarms and it is not third party content.

[ciopo]

Haven't had time to in-depth, but I can't believe I forgot about martial study. Foehammer or those others DR/bypass strikes could be cinch and what are we spending all those fighter feats on anyway?

Perhaps a dive-charger raptoran I guess?

I'm upping my guesstimate to cr 15-16, on the assumption that around this cr could be we can still 1charge kill stuff, especially on a diving charge.

Another point we glossed over: is it 1vs1, or are we "a party of fighters"?

[pabelfly]

Had another go at a Fighter 20 build. We’re not (ab)using Vow of Poverty this time. Same build assumptions as before.

Grok the Orc
16/14/15/8/11/6 (Level 1)
16/14/20/8/11/6 (Level 20)

Flaw: Animal Devotion
Flaw: Animal Devotion
1: Animal Devotion
F1: Powerful Charge
F2: Power Attack
3: Leap Attack
F4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Headlong Rush
F6: Shock Trooper
F8: Weapon Focus
9: Animal Devotion
F10: Resolute ACF
12: Greater Powerful Charge
F12: Reckless Charge
F14: Weapon Specialization
15: Melee Weapon Mastery
F16: Greater Weapon Focus
18: Greater Weapon Specialization
F18: Weapon Supremacy
F20: Improved Toughness

Attack Roll – 20 BAB + 3 STR + 4 Reckless Charge +1 Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 1 Greater Weapon Specialization + 10 Weapon Supremacy
Attack Roll – 41 (taking 10)

Damage – 2d6 Greatsword + 2d6 Greater Powerful Charge + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 2 Greater Weapon Specialization + 4 STR x 1.5 + 60 Power Attack, Leap Attack x2 (Headlong Rush)
Damage – 8d6 + 140 (On charge)

HP – 214
AC – Nope
Saves – 17/8/6 (16 with Resolute ACF)

Edit: Added Weapon Supremacy feat and Greater Powerful Charge, removed Law Devotion feats, tweaked STR and CON stats to make best use of Weapon Supremacy

[JNAProductions]

Had another go at a Fighter 20 build. We’re not (ab)using Vow of Poverty this time. Same build assumptions as before.

Grok the Orc
19/12/14/8/11/6 (Level 1)
24/12/14/8/11/6 (Level 20)

Flaw: Animal Devotion
Flaw: Animal Devotion
1: Animal Devotion
F1: Thug Fighter ACF
F2: Power Attack
3: Leap Attack
F4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Headlong Rush
F6: Shock Trooper
F8: Armor of God ACF
9: Animal Devotion
F10: Resolute ACF
12: Law Devotion
F12: Reckless Charge
F14: Weapon Focus
15: Law Devotion
F16: Weapon Specialization
18: Law Devotion
F18: Melee Weapon Mastery
F20: Improved Toughness

Attack Roll – 20 BAB + 7 STR + 4 Reckless Charge +1 Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 4 (Animal Devotion, if using Ape’s Fury) + 7 (Law Devotion)
38 (with Animal Devotion, on a charge)
41 (with Law Devotion, on a charge)

Damage – 2d6 Greatsword + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 60 Power Attack, Leap Attack x2 (Headlong Rush)
Damage – 4d6 + 128 (On charge)

HP – 174
AC – Nope
Saves – 14/7/6 (16 with Resolute ACF)

I bolded the issue.

If you're in a one-on-one versus an enemy, the ability to say "Eat 500 damage!" is crazy good!
What if there's more than one, though?

Let's go with a Fire Giant (CR 10). At AC 23 and 142 HP, you can pretty easily paste one. (Assuming you can get in range, that is!)

But a Fire Giant hitting back, at +9/4/-1 for 3d6+37 damage... Average damage on that is 47.5, meaning you can take three and not die. Assuming no crits. The fourth hit will do you in.

So, since I don't see Cleave anywhere on there, that means you can utterly dumpster one Fire Giant, but four of them (CR 14) have a good chance of dumpstering you, though with losses.

[ciopo]

That nope should be a 19, full plate. Maybe a little more if we go mithril, what are we spending our gold on anyway!

But shocktrooper is shocktrooper.

Can do without shocktrooper if you know your enemy. Dropping 15ish attack bonus rather than AC would be goodish enough for fire giants.

Not to be finagling the specific monster, but a shocktrooper would be pasted, magic items or not, if it did charge a group and dump the AC regardless

[pabelfly]

I bolded the issue.

If you're in a one-on-one versus an enemy, the ability to say "Eat 500 damage!" is crazy good!
What if there's more than one, though?

Let's go with a Fire Giant (CR 10). At AC 23 and 142 HP, you can pretty easily paste one. (Assuming you can get in range, that is!)

But a Fire Giant hitting back, at +9/4/-1 for 3d6+37 damage... Average damage on that is 47.5, meaning you can take three and not die. Assuming no crits. The fourth hit will do you in.

So, since I don't see Cleave anywhere on there, that means you can utterly dumpster one Fire Giant, but four of them (CR 14) have a good chance of dumpstering you, though with losses.

Shocktrooper is the issue, but it's the only way to reach a decent damage benchmark. Since we can only do one attack on a charge since we can't dip for Pounce.

You can power attack without using Shock Trooper, and you can triple that with a two-handed weapon and Leap Attack, and double that again with Heedless Charge, but even with those various multipliers at work and the accuracy-boosting feats I took, you're going to have issues with both accuracy and a lack of damage without Shock Trooper.

[JNAProductions]

Oh, you don't have pounce?

*Looks at build*

You don't have pounce. You've a better than 50/50 chance of killing a Fire Giant on a hit, but decent odds of NOT killing it. (Massive Damage Rules might do it in, assuming anyone remembers those. :P )

[pabelfly]

Shocktrooper is the issue, but it's the only way to reach a decent damage benchmark. Since we can only do one attack on a charge since we can't dip for Pounce.

You can power attack without using Shock Trooper, and you can triple that with a two-handed weapon and Leap Attack, and double that again with Heedless Charge, but even with those various multipliers at work and the accuracy-boosting feats I took, you're going to have issues with both accuracy and a lack of damage without Shock Trooper.


That nope should be a 19, full plate. Maybe a little more if we go mithril, what are we spending our gold on anyway!

But shocktrooper is shocktrooper.

Can do without shocktrooper if you know your enemy. Dropping 15ish attack bonus rather than AC would be goodish enough for fire giants.

Not to be finagling the specific monster, but a shocktrooper would be pasted, magic items or not, if it did charge a group and dump the AC regardless

The AC is like 20 - You can get 9 from Mithril Fullplate and +1 from Dex. You can get extra feats to boost AC, like Heavy Armor Proficiency, but that seems like a pretty subpar use of feats.

You could disregard Shock Trooper and try various levels of Power Attack, but we're pretty low on AC already - we don't have Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, dex boosts or a +1 in our armor, so might as well accept that we're going to get hit, and get as much as we can with that in mind.

[pabelfly]

Oh, you don't have pounce?

*Looks at build*

You don't have pounce. You've a better than 50/50 chance of killing a Fire Giant on a hit, but decent odds of NOT killing it. (Massive Damage Rules might do it in, assuming anyone remembers those. :P )

There's no way that I'm aware of to get Pounce on a straight Fighter, unfortunately. Being able to do a dip or two would make this a lot easier, but the challenge is what it is.

[JNAProductions]

There's no way that I'm aware of to get Pounce on a straight Fighter, unfortunately. Being able to do a dip or two would make this a lot easier, but the challenge is what it is.

Yeah, makes sense.

But eesh-that means that no matter how good your hit bonus and damage, you've got a 1/20 chance of just falling flat.

[pabelfly]

Yeah, makes sense.

But eesh-that means that no matter how good your hit bonus and damage, you've got a 1/20 chance of just falling flat.

True. I did a bit of work trying to get a fighter using Travel Devotion to work, but it was obvious that it was worse - you don't get the benefits of Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, or Heedless Charge, and your Power Attack options are just making the chances of you hitting lower, especially for your follow-up attacks in that round. And a TWF build without decent stat boosts wasn't even going to get past the damage reduction of any enemy with it.

[Quertus]

Yeah, makes sense.

But eesh-that means that no matter how good your hit bonus and damage, you've got a 1/20 chance of just falling flat.

Are their luck-based feats that let you reroll? Or was that just in the d20 Wheel of Time? (Darn senility).

[pabelfly]

Are their luck-based feats that let you reroll? Or was that just in the d20 Wheel of Time? (Darn senility).

Butter Lucky than Good sounds exactly like what we're after here. You would need a few other luck feats to get the most out of it though.

[Crake]

"Whatever DR a creature with the fire or earth subtype have"? Eh.

Well, I mean, keep in mind, a red dragon is a fire subtype creature for example, which was what brought my mind back to it as a potential subsitutute for cyrite in this case, since we were talking about dragons.


Thirdly...what's even your argument here? "The fighter should be allowed to use extremely setting-specific materials outside of that setting, because...because please"? We could make that argument about lots of stuff. Would be great if our Fighter could use the Craft skill to get cheaper alchemical items making them himself, but alas.

No argument at this point, more just an observation that I noticed when you pointed it out.

[Lans]

Weapon supremacy let's you take 10.

Armor wise have you looked at the dragon mhusk ACF?

[pabelfly]

Weapon supremacy let's you take 10.

Armor wise have you looked at the dragon mhusk ACF?

Good suggestions

Dragonscale Husk requires the dragonblood subtype, and I'm not seeing the point of investing resources in AC when we're struggling to pass 20 AC, or full BAB for a level 20 character before stats, skills or items, and we are running a charging build. If you think I'm wrong let me know.

Weapon Supremacy is a great suggestion, thank you. I've updated the build, and with some feats freed up, got the build to around 170 damage on a charge attack and our charge always gets to take 10 for its attack roll, and boosted HP to around 210, which means with our terrible AC we can at least take a hit or two.

[AvatarVecna]

Honestly the AC issue is why I think the "no magic fighter" should really be a ranged person. You need every advantage you can get, especially when a lot of things are going to fly faster than raptorans so even that's not a perfect solution to all melee problems. There's a lot of monsters in 3.5 that are big beatsticks, and trying to win a beatstick contest when you have no armor and they basically all have power attack...you're gonna have a bad time. So turn the tables: the reason we were considering raptoran at all is because without flight, a lot of monsters just can't be melee'd unless they give us a freebie. So be the "flying ranged monster impossible for the flightless beatstick to beat" when you fight monsters. Footbow helps mitigate some of the damage issues, and while Wind Wall is now on the list of spells that can totally shut you down...regardless of build, you're a pure fighter with no magic. The list of "individual spells that can completely screw you over" is a long and varied one, even if we just stick to core material. Additionally, reactive teleportation can get somebody out of your sword range after (or possibly before) your first shot, but unless they can do it multiple times a round, that will only cancel 0-1 ranged attacks, as opposed to "all of your melee attacks".

Of course, the issue of "enemies have magic" is a hard one to overcome. It's a hard one for noncasters to overcome when they aren't taking a huge nerf for no good reason. Even with good Fort, Con 18, and a feat for +2, you'd be looking at "only" Fort +18. That's your best save, and it's gonna be a rough time getting any build who can get it above +20 without shooting themselves in the foot somewhere else. The bigger issue is Will saves: base +6, with +4 max from Wis or Con (Steadfast Determination), maybe +2 from a feat, maybe +2 from traits? +14. That's a 50/50 chance of resisting that DC 25 frightful presence mentioned earlier. You're gonna have a pretty rough time.

[pabelfly]

Honestly the AC issue is why I think the "no magic fighter" should really be a ranged person. You need every advantage you can get, especially when a lot of things are going to fly faster than raptorans so even that's not a perfect solution to all melee problems. There's a lot of monsters in 3.5 that are big beatsticks, and trying to win a beatstick contest when you have no armor and they basically all have power attack...you're gonna have a bad time. So turn the tables: the reason we were considering raptoran at all is because without flight, a lot of monsters just can't be melee'd unless they give us a freebie. So be the "flying ranged monster impossible for the flightless beatstick to beat" when you fight monsters. Footbow helps mitigate some of the damage issues, and while Wind Wall is now on the list of spells that can totally shut you down...regardless of build, you're a pure fighter with no magic. The list of "individual spells that can completely screw you over" is a long and varied one, even if we just stick to core material. Additionally, reactive teleportation can get somebody out of your sword range after (or possibly before) your first shot, but unless they can do it multiple times a round, that will only cancel 0-1 ranged attacks, as opposed to "all of your melee attacks".

Of course, the issue of "enemies have magic" is a hard one to overcome. It's a hard one for noncasters to overcome when they aren't taking a huge nerf for no good reason. Even with good Fort, Con 18, and a feat for +2, you'd be looking at "only" Fort +18. That's your best save, and it's gonna be a rough time getting any build who can get it above +20 without shooting themselves in the foot somewhere else. The bigger issue is Will saves: base +6, with +4 max from Wis or Con (Steadfast Determination), maybe +2 from a feat, maybe +2 from traits? +14. That's a 50/50 chance of resisting that DC 25 frightful presence mentioned earlier. You're gonna have a pretty rough time.

You can also solve the Will save issue with the Resolute ACF - you can drop your BAB by half and add that to your Will save. Means you're likely going to miss your next attack but that's better than suffering whatever issue you'd have losing your Will save.

If we're able to use Drag Mag we can also get Eldritch Juggernaut, which would give us a Spell Resistance of 31.

[Lans]

There is also willing deformity madness that can be obtained by worshipping an elder evil along with 3 other feats

[Doctor Despair]

There is also willing deformity madness that can be obtained by worshipping an elder evil along with 3 other feats

Vile feats (including the Deformity line) are supernatural. Is that allowed?

[Endarire]

Remember, Tome of Battle and Path of War maneuvers and stances can be gotten as Fighter bonus feats.

[icefractal]

Vile feats (including the Deformity line) are supernatural. Is that allowed?I'd think so? The OP is about "how much of the character's power comes from WBL"? So I think that if you somehow managed to get spellcasting without purchasing it (as a Fighter 20) even that would be legit.

But conversely, I think that means really expensive non-magic gear (comprising a significant fraction of WBL) would be off the table.

And I agree that ranged is probably your best bet, because without any magic items both mobility and defense will be limited. Unless you can go template-heavy (ECL 20 but less than 20 Fighter levels), but at that point it's increasingly less about being a Fighter.

[pabelfly]

I'd think so? The OP is about "how much of the character's power comes from WBL"? So I think that if you somehow managed to get spellcasting without purchasing it (as a Fighter 20) even that would be legit.

But conversely, I think that means really expensive non-magic gear (comprising a significant fraction of WBL) would be off the table.

And I agree that ranged is probably your best bet, because without any magic items both mobility and defense will be limited. Unless you can go template-heavy (ECL 20 but less than 20 Fighter levels), but at that point it's increasingly less about being a Fighter.

You could do quite a bit with a dip or two, even if you stuck with the mundane martial without gear theme and had the majority of your levels in Fighter

[Laughing Dog]

I started looking at the SRD, going from CR 20 to lower CRs, trying to find the highest CR monster a typical fighter 20 could beat.

Well, a typical fighter 20 is a melee dude, so I'd exclude flying monsters (others have pointed out he can use a bow, but I'm trying to put the fighter in the most favorable circumstances).
This excludes dragons and flying outsiders.
Frost Giant Jarl doesn't have strong spells or SLAs, has good hp and AC but no DR. I think a well built fighter 20 could survive the fight, but it would be a very difficult challenge since the giant has good attack bonus, good damage and power attack, while the fighter will have at best 21 AC with a mithral full plate. Anyone interested in building a fighter capable of beating a Frost Giant Jarl? (ok, apart from a raptoran with a longbow! I mean a melee fighter)
Okay.
I'm going to work with a few assumptions, as follows: 32-point buy (from what I've seen, this is pretty standard point buy around these parts). No item worth more than 15,200 gp (or 2% of 20th Level WBL). No more than 38,000 gp (5% of WBL) total worth of equipment, and no bringing a wagon full of equipment. This will also be a 1v1 between the fighter and the jarl.
First up, the race: Gnome (PHB). The initial stats would be STR 16, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 8. after Level ups that becomes STR 20, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 8.
Next, the Equipment: a suit of Mithral Mechanus Gear armor [Mechanus Gear is from Planar Handbook, costs 1750 GP, and gives +10 AC with a +0 Max DEX bonus.] (10,750 GP); a Tower Shield (30 GP); and a small Admantine B.-Sword (3,035 GP).
Feats are as follows: 1st.)EWP B.-Sword, Weapon Focus B.-Sword, 2nd.)Dodge, 3rd.)Combat Expertise, 4th.)Weapon Specialization B.-Sword, 6th.)Heavy Armor Optimization1, Demonic Skin2, 8th.) Great Weapon Focus B.-Sword, 9th.) Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)3, 10th.)Greater Heavy Armor Optimization1, 12th.) Greater Weapon Specialization B.-Sword, Cloak of the Obyrith2, 14.) Resolute ACF 4, 15.)Endurance, 16.)Improved Initiative, 18.)Weapon Supremacy B.-Sword3,Steadfast Determination3,20.)Improved Critical B.-Sword

So AC is sits normally at 32*, but against the Jarl, and using Combat Expertise this jumps to 42**. Furthemore, The Gnome Fighter has DR 2/Lawful. On the Offensive side, Fighter has an Attack Bonus of +29, but that drops to +24 w/ Combat Expertise. Can also take 10 on the attack roll 1/round. Damage wise, the fighter does 1d8+11 points of damage per attack.

In order for the Jarl with Bull's Strength active to hit on a full attack, it needs to roll a 10, a 15, and 2 20s. In order for the Fighter to hit on a full attack, it needs to roll a 5, a 10, a 15, and a 20. Have that second iterative be the take 10 attack for a guaranteed hit every turn. Jar has 231 HP and does an average of 32 damage (after Damage Reduction) per hit; It has a 55% chance to hit with the 1st attack, a 30% to hit with the second, and 5% chance each for the final two attacks each turn. The Fighter has 174 HP and does an average of 15.5 damage per hit; It has a 80% chance to hit with the first swing, 100% with the second swing ( on account of taking 10), a 30% chance to hit with the 3rd, and a measly 5% chance to hit with the last attack. If someone would mind doing the math as to who would probably run out of HP first, I'd be appreciative.

Also, since it was pointed out that the Will save appears to be low, I'll note the saves here: Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +9, can be boosted to as much as +19 if needed.

*10(base)+10(Armor)+1(size)+4(Shield)+2(HAO and GHAO)+2(DEX)+2(Natural armor[Demonic Skin])+Weapon Supremacy.
*+1(Dodge Feat)+4(Gnome racial dodge bonus vs Giants)+5 (Combat Expertise)


Races of Stone
Fiendish Codex 1
Player's Hand Book 2
Complete Champion

EDIT: Mechalich reminded me about Bull's Strength, which will add +2 to attack and damage. Will adjust accordingly.
Further edit: Noticed in the PHB description on tower shields that tower shields give -2 to attack rolls. Also the texts regarding shields is that they don't affect the Maximum DEX bonus, but the table shows that the tower shield does. Doesn't matter here, but still, weird.
Yet more editing: Corrected terminology concerning Combat Expertise. If fighting defensively while using Combat Expertise, increase fighter AC by 2, and decrease attack bonus by 4. This causes jarl's hit chance to drop back to 45%, 20%, 5%, and 5%. If Bull's Strength wasn't factored in, that would drop hit chances to 35%, 10%, 5%, and 5%. It would also change fighters hit chances to 100%, 35 %, 10% and 5% (the 10 would now be taken on the 1st attack each turn.)

[Mechalich]

Don't forget that the Jarl does have Blackguard spellcasting. Bull's Strength makes a difference to the DPS race, and also your fighter appears to have a tragic +5 Will save, meaning the Jarl has a very good chance of landing Doom once the fighter enters within its Aura of Despair.

[Laughing Dog]

Point taken, though I will note that will save is actually +9 due to Steadfast Determination (so it keys off of CON instead of WIS), that can be boosted by +7 (+10 if not fighting defensively) via Resolute ACF.

[Melcar]

Was going through my list of special materials, and pretty much everything that overcomes DR (aside from the standard cold iron, silver and adamantite) is from eberron. There's a couple exceptions, like Kheferu and frystalline, but most of them like flametouched iron, cyrite, calomal, and targath are all from eberron.

You are forgetting oerthblooded pure ore obdurium!

[Jack_Simth]

You are forgetting oerthblooded pure ore obdurium!

Does that overcome DR? Crake did you that clause as a modifier.

[zlefin]

This makes me wonder how a pathfinder fighter 20 would fare. They get quite a few extra bonuses; from what I can see, it'd let them face a CR about 2-3 higher than a 3.5 fighter could; on average.

It also makes me wonder how a warblade 20 would fare; which is a lot harder to calculate due to needing to figure out the net effects of all the maneuvers.

[Ignimortis]

It also makes me wonder how a warblade 20 would fare; which is a lot harder to calculate due to needing to figure out the net effects of all the maneuvers.

They'd get much better mileage out of actions, since attacking for 150 damage in a standard action or making a double full attack is extremely easy with Warblade 20. Defenses would still be lacking, but less so, due to Stance of Alacrity+either Supreme Blade Parry or Absolute Steel, and saves would be a lot higher simply due to Moment of Perfect Mind and Diamond Defense (+20 to a save as an immediate action? can't be beat).

Sadly, Warblade doesn't get access to a native flight source, but they can have blindsense and DR-bypassing strikes.

[pabelfly]

Tried a ranged Fighter 20 build, and it had the expected issues against anything with damage reduction

Presuming a level 20 DEX of 24...

Attack Routine: 34/34/34/24/29 (thanks, Weapon Supremacy).
Damage - 1d8 Light Crossbow + 16 (Crossbow Sniper, Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Master, Greater Weapon Specialization, Knowledge Devotion) + 4 (Point-Blank Shot and Crossbow Sniper for being within 30ft).

Being only able to do 25 damage per attack isn't that great, although you'd probably hit around four of your five attacks.

[ShurikVch]

Some other stuff:
For overcoming alignment-based DR - Aligned Strike ACF (Complete Champion)
For incorporeal creatures - Jade (Oriental Adventures) or Truesilver (Ghostwalk) weapon. Either costs +1000 gp, neither is magical.


I do think that there are nonmagical tools that can be used to deal with or protect oneself from swarms, and bow exist for fliers. However I do admit that those tools are almost always 3rd party and limited in actual use. the effectiveness of bows would be determined by the level of optimization.
Candle, Insectbane (Arms and Equipment Guide)
Sprayer (Arms and Equipment Guide)


There's no way that I'm aware of to get Pounce on a straight Fighter, unfortunately. Being able to do a dip or two would make this a lot easier, but the challenge is what it is.
Razorclaw Elite - two claw attacks at the end of the charge
Catfolk Pounce - but only against flatfooted opponent
Two-Weapon Pounce - lose attack roll bonus from charging, required BAB +6
Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws + Open Least Chakra: Hands - natural weapons only; available from 6th level
Martial Study: Pouncing Charge - available at 18th level

[pabelfly]

Razorclaw Elite - two claw attacks at the end of the charge
Catfolk Pounce - but only against flatfooted opponent
Two-Weapon Pounce - lose attack roll bonus from charging, required BAB +6
Martial Study: Pouncing Charge - available at 18th level

I always forget about these. Thanks for the reminder.

I want to come up with something using Catfolk Pounce + Flick of The Wrist.

EDIT: Scratch that - Catfolk is LA 1, so can't use it (unless I'm doing LA Buyoff rules).

[vasilidor]

OP here:
As far as special materials go, as many have asked, Is... Maybe?
Alchemical items are fine, but special materials would be hard to get if at all.
But Getting spells from feats or SLA from a playable race would be OK to a point (no race over CL+2, but feats are fine).

[Maat Mons]

While you're clarifying things, are classes other than Fighter okay? I think a Barbarian 20 could do better than a Fighter 20. Also, are multiclass builds okay?

[Kitsuneymg]

Nominally is the key word here. Oddly enough, I also recently did a survey of dragons comparing their listed CR to other monsters of the same theoretical CR, and discovered that on average, across all types and age categories, true dragons are under-CR'd by one point. Many are under by two points, especially at higher age categories.

I seem to recall reading that when WotC designed CR and dragons, they specifically said they under CR dragons by 1. Because you were supposed to always equip specially for dragons and go hunting them, not just run across them in the field. And they wanted the CR to reflect the party that was prepared for them.

[Quertus]

The thought in my head is what can a character at level 20 face without magic items?
How much of a characters power comes from wealth by level?
what can nonmagical characters face without magic items to help and hope to win?

I just wanted to point out that, on the flip side, the 20th level Fighter could hand an Adamantine Greatsword off to his Cohort's Cohort's Cohort's... etc... a Gheden Fighter 1, with immunity to damage, and they could, on average, solo an Advanced HD (108 HD) Adamantine Golem (CR 28? 29?) in a mere... hmmm...

22 Str -> +6 Dmg (+9 2-handed)
Adamantine -> +3 damage
Power Attack -> +1 damage (+2 2-handed)
2d6+14 vs DR 20 -> (6+10+12+12+10+6)/36 -> 1.556 damage / hit
108d10+60 -> 654 HP
654 HP / 1.556 HP/hit -> 421 hits (dang, missed it by 1!)
421 hits * 20 rounds/hit -> 8420 rounds

8,420 rounds.

And a level 20 Wizard, as played at most tables (IME) would struggle to face this challenge.

So, IMO, optimization matters more than class, level, or wealth.

[Laughing Dog]

I should like to remind folks that a CR X creature is meant to be faced by a party of 4 level X characters, not a single level X character. I presume that a single level X character (properly equipped) would be able to have a either roughly even match against said creature or a slightly uphill fight. Regarding the fighter/jarl bit earlier, that is an even fight, that is slightly in the fighter's favor (assuming the jarl didn't cast Bull's Strength beforehand and has to cast it during. Even if the jarl did cast Bull's Strength beforehand, there would be a slight advantage to the fighter.) Give the fighter +5 versions of its sword, armor, and shield as well as a ring of protection +5, and the fight turns from even fight that can go either way to one-sided massacre. So now regarding the original question, I'd say CR 15-17 monsters, depending on the fighter and the build.

[Anthrowhale]

For a pure fighter 20, I'd suggest picking up the Sneak Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant, then use Wild Cohort (web) to pick up a flying companion where both of you take the Double Team feat (dragon compendium). For long range combat, use a bow with appropriately flavored arrows and for up close combat use a poison ring (dragon compendium) which allows you to bypass most monster AC via touch attacks. Add in the Craven feat for bonus damage. At this point you can hit and deal serious damage to things in reach, or you can pepper things at range.

(This works even better if you can take 3 levels of rogue to pick up the Lightbringer Rogue ACF.)

[vasilidor]

We can do other classes. I also know however that spellcaster classes are not as affected by little to no magic mart.

[Maat Mons]

Alright, well Barbarian's got a better base to make a charging build.

You can get pounce at level 1, through the Spirit Totem ACF. Though all the benefits of the Spirit Totem ACF are supernatural abilities, so it may not be nonmagical enough for some people's tastes.

There's also that ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement which gives bonuses when charging. Eventually, it gives Cleaving Charge, which potentially lets you charge quite a few different enemies in a single round, but only if you can take enemies down in one hit. Unfortunately, this doesn't come into play until level 19, which is a point few games will reach.

Further, that charging-based ACF is incompatible with what is arguably the best Barbarian ACF, Devil's Luck. Devil's Luck gives a scaling luck bonus to all saves, eventually reaching +6. Add in the +4 bonus to will saves from Mighty Rage, and the additional +4 bonus to will saves against Enchantment spells from Indomitable Will, and even with your base only being +6, you've got a +20 to will saves against Enchantment spells even before adding your ability score.

If you take the Steadfast Determination feat, the ability score you add to will saves could be Constitution, which will presumably be a good score for you even before the +8 from Mighty Rage.

What do you guys think? Cleaving Charge or a boost to saves? Which is the better choice here?

If you're a non-humanoid, you can take the Fangshields racial substitution levels for a scaling enhancement bonus to speed when charging. It eventually reaches +60 feet. This does limit your race selection though, both because it mechanically requires that you don't have the Humanoid type, and because it thematically requires a strong connection to nature.

If the Unseelie Fey template is allowed and ruled to be LA +0, and you're allowed to just pick wings instead of rolling, it's really the perfect fit. You could be a much angrier version of Celia, if you ignore the fact that Celia is an outsider and casts spells as a 7th-level Sorcerer.

[pabelfly]

Now we're doing multiclassing...

Paladin of Freedom 4/Barbarian 2/Fighter 14

Frostblood Half-Orc
Level 1 – 16/12/15/8/16/8
Level 20 – 20/12/16/8/16/8
HP – 186
AC – 28 (10 + 12 (Dragonscale Husk) + 1 DEX + 5 Combat Expertise)
Saves – 22/9/15 (with Rage), 22/9/25 (with Resolute activated)


1 – Animal Devotion
F – Headlong Rush
F – Improved Bull Rush
3 – Serenity
P4 – Power Attack
6 – Leap Attack
B2 – Run
F1 – Shock Trooper
F2 – Weapon Focus
9 – Law Devotion
F4 – Weapon Specialization
12 – Extra Turning
F6 – Melee Weapon Master
F8 – Resolute ACF
15 – Extra Turning
F10 – Greater Weapon Focus
F12 – Combat Expertise
18 – Extra Rage
F14 – Improved Toughness
Attack Rolls
20 BAB + 5 STR + 2 STR (Rage) + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Greater Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 7 Law Devotion + 2 Charge – 5 Combat Expertise
35/30/25/20

Damage Rolls
2d6 (Greatsword) + 6 (STR x 1.5) + 3 (Rage STR x 1.5) + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Master + Power Attack x 2 Headlong Rush

Power Attack 5 – 4d6 + 56
Power Attack 10 – 4d6 + 86
Power Attack 15 – 4d6 + 116
Power Attack 20 – 4d6 + 146

ACFs
Fighter – Dragonscale Husk
Barbarian – Totem Barbarian (Horse), Spiritual Totem (Lion)
Paladin – Paladin of Freedom, Holy Warrior, Dragonscale Husk

[Togo]

We can do other classes. I also know however that spellcaster classes are not as affected by little to no magic mart.

They can be. Try building a wizard with no extra acquired spells in his book, run the challenge at level 10 rather than 20, and see how long he lasts. He'll do better than the fighter, but that lack of versatility will hurt him.

[tyckspoon]

They can be. Try building a wizard with no extra acquired spells in his book, run the challenge at level 10 rather than 20, and see how long he lasts. He'll do better than the fighter, but that lack of versatility will hurt him.

.. it just means your spell selection looks more like a Sorcerer's, where you have to curate for the best selections/spells that can be useful in the broadest set of circumstances rather than being able to flex into more single-purpose tool spells. And even then you have more spells to work with than an equivalent level Sorcerer would. A Wizard can work just fine with those 2 spells/level from leveling, they do not require purchasing additional spells at all (that said if 'you can never gain any additional spells' is a real condition, you're much better off just being a Cleric or Druid. Or taking one of the Wizard options that gives you more levelup spells.)

[Metastachydium]

They can be. Try building a wizard with no extra acquired spells in his book, run the challenge at level 10 rather than 20, and see how long he lasts. He'll do better than the fighter, but that lack of versatility will hurt him.

A 10th level sorcerer has, like, 15 spells (18 to 19 if they spend all feat slots on Extra Spell) and 9 cantrips; only one of these 15 to 19 spells is 5th level.
A Wizard with Collegiate Wizard and an INT score of 18 (which is by no means abnormally high) knows 46 spells (including up to 8 5th level spells) and all cantrips.

[vasilidor]

I did not say that spell casters are not affected, just that they are not *as* affected.
A level 20 wizard can totally deal with things that a level 20 fighter cannot.
Especially in no magic mart land.
Even if it just means they can more reliably run away.

[vasilidor]

I think that without some sort of spell caster in the group we can probably rule out incorporeal monsters and a good chunk of undead, demons and devils.
If only because there would be a lack of ways to deal with their abilities, offensively or defensively.

[vasilidor]

So back to the monsters, do you guys think an average of about CR 13 would be about right?

[RandomPeasant]

Sadly, Warblade doesn't get access to a native flight source, but they can have blindsense and DR-bypassing strikes.

They don't get native flight, but you can just barely qualify for balance on the sky if you throw four feats at it.

[Mechalich]

So back to the monsters, do you guys think an average of about CR 13 would be about right?

It really depends on the type of monster. Several of the builds put up here present fighters who can get around the mobility issue and dish out sufficient DPR to at least hold their own in damage races against quite beatstick-type monsters. The problem comes against basically any other type of monster, as without magic its really hard to boost up the Weak saves - especially Will - high enough to avoid getting splatted by a SoS. For example, a CR 9 Spirit Naga has Charming Gaze, DC 19. This has a very good chance of taking out the Fighter, even if they've buffed their Will save up to +9 or +10 (which is a significant investment without magic).

[RandomPeasant]

There's really two different questions. "What is the weakest monster that can beat a Fighter without magic" (which honestly might be a Shadow) and "what is the strongest monster that a Fighter can beat without magic" (which could easily be one of the epic-level vermin if you can get flight somewhere).

[pabelfly]

It really depends on the type of monster. Several of the builds put up here present fighters who can get around the mobility issue and dish out sufficient DPR to at least hold their own in damage races against quite beatstick-type monsters. The problem comes against basically any other type of monster, as without magic its really hard to boost up the Weak saves - especially Will - high enough to avoid getting splatted by a SoS. For example, a CR 9 Spirit Naga has Charming Gaze, DC 19. This has a very good chance of taking out the Fighter, even if they've buffed their Will save up to +9 or +10 (which is a significant investment without magic).

A level 20 fighter with a zero in Wisdom that spends only one fighter feat on the Resolute ACF would be able to get to 16 Will save before rolling a D20. I don't think the Fighter's will save situation is as dire as you're making it out to be.

[Mordante]

The fighter can fightt any monster. It might not be able to hit or do any damage. But there is no restriction otherwise.

[vasilidor]

The reason I wanted to ask these questions is I want to try running a game without a magic mart or have that magic mart be unreliable.
I do not want it to be a slaughterfest filled with TPKs. I know at low levels the game does not need magic items all that much but once you break past CR 5 issues start cropping up.
Damage reduction can be an issue I know and incorporeal monsters are out from the word go unless the party gets lucky or someone decides to play a crafter or they manage to recruit one.
Unless they play mages.
I am also aware that if the game is the standard 4 of rogue, fighter, wizard and cleric and the wizard and cleric players actually know what they are doing, they will be the stars of the show. Though that can be somewhat fixed if I use spheres of power instead of the regular magic system and also allow spheres of might and book of 9 swords/ path of war material.

[noce]

The reason I wanted to ask these questions is I want to try running a game without a magic mart or have that magic mart be unreliable.
I do not want it to be a slaughterfest filled with TPKs. I know at low levels the game does not need magic items all that much but once you break past CR 5 issues start cropping up.
Damage reduction can be an issue I know and incorporeal monsters are out from the word go unless the party gets lucky or someone decides to play a crafter or they manage to recruit one.
Unless they play mages.
I am also aware that if the game is the standard 4 of rogue, fighter, wizard and cleric and the wizard and cleric players actually know what they are doing, they will be the stars of the show. Though that can be somewhat fixed if I use spheres of power instead of the regular magic system and also allow spheres of might and book of 9 swords/ path of war material.

One nice idea could be to give out for free meldshaping progression to your players.
Mundane characters could pick either incarnate or totemist progression (their choice), while caster characters will have soulborn progression.

Don't know how much it will do to balance things out, but it would be funny.

[pabelfly]

The reason I wanted to ask these questions is I want to try running a game without a magic mart or have that magic mart be unreliable.
I do not want it to be a slaughterfest filled with TPKs. I know at low levels the game does not need magic items all that much but once you break past CR 5 issues start cropping up.
Damage reduction can be an issue I know and incorporeal monsters are out from the word go unless the party gets lucky or someone decides to play a crafter or they manage to recruit one.
Unless they play mages.
I am also aware that if the game is the standard 4 of rogue, fighter, wizard and cleric and the wizard and cleric players actually know what they are doing, they will be the stars of the show. Though that can be somewhat fixed if I use spheres of power instead of the regular magic system and also allow spheres of might and book of 9 swords/ path of war material.

I'm not sure about the idea of running a game without a magic mart. The problem with not having magic items, besides the numbers for the game being out, is that it makes things even worse for martial characters than not. Take flight, for example. You have to pick specific races or spend multiple feats to ensure that a melee Fighter 20 can actually deal with an aerial combatant, while the mage or cleric have plenty of ranged damage options to pick from and still do it better than the fighter who's had to spend more of their limited build resources to do it. This same disparity is repeated for all sorts of other things - resisting bad status effects, tactical teleportation, improving senses, etc.

You also need to consider the optimization ability of the players. Wizard and Cleric can be extremely powerful, sure, but that also requires a high level of system mastery.

But let's assume that there is a disparity between players. You have a few options:
- Encourage weaker players to use stronger races for their builds, and/or suggest better classes with similar flavour.
- Run low-level campaigns (as a rough rule, martials are better than casters before level 6, and casters beats martials after).
- You could adjust the stats and abilities of enemies, so that hitting things in the face is a viable option.
- Give out items that favour the martials over the magic characters.
- Fudge numbers, especially HP. Even if a player is weaker and doing less damage than other players, they're going to feel pretty good if they land the killing blow on an enemy, even if they didn't do the same amount of work as the stronger player.

[vasilidor]

while I am willing to talk with my players about character choices I really do not want to fudge numbers.
This was why I was wanting to check in and see what kind of limits I should put on myself as the DM. I do not think I posted this thing right.
The players have mostly been playing for years and have a good grasp of what spell casters are capable of, But may not want to play a spell caster.
I am planning on having adventures in which the idea is to go get magic item 'X', but these would be side quests or they could potentially get a wizard or other caster as an ally willing to make magic items but only if they go down those routes. Bit of a sand box, but events will continue on around the players.

[icefractal]

If you're using SoP already, check out the Oaths system, the "Oath points instead of magic items" option in particular.

IIRC, it recommends 15 points worth in a "no items" campaign, which is IMO enough to fix at least the numerical issues. With the right choices for weapon properties and the "Imbued Item" option, you can handle things like flying/invisible/incorporeal foes as well, although it takes a little optimization.

For comparison, it's basically like VoP but customizable and better. I've voluntarily taken it in a mid-level campaign just as I didn't feel like gear shopping, and didn't feel underpowered (to be fair, this was a gish character, not pure non-caster).

[Maat Mons]

I feel like making "acquire a magic item" a quest is something that will only ever work well at certain levels.

A huge trend in this game is that things that were major problems for characters at lower levels can be absolutely trivial at higher levels. When you're low level, getting home from a far away place can be a whole story arc. When you're high level, you just teleport. When you're low level, you might have to forage for food in the wilderness and build makeshift shelters. When you're high level, you magically conjure all the food you could ever want and spend every night in a Magnificent Mansion. When you're low level a sheer cliff face is an impediment to progress. When you're high level, you just fly.

I'd say the most common pitfall in D&D is to play in high-level games, but try to treat them as low-level games with bigger numbers. In fact, the game designers fell into this same trap when designing half the classes. A 1st-level Fighter runs up to enemies and hits them with his sword. A 20th-level fighter does exactly the same thing. He's not a high-level character. He's a low-level character with inflated numbers. The challenges have evolved, but he hasn't.

The game lets you keep putting skill points in Balance, Climb, and Jump long after those skills have lost relevance because you should be able to fly over the obstacles. It lets you keep investing in tracking long after you should be able to locate enemies with scrying magic. It lets you tend to sick characters to give them bonuses on saves to recover from disease long after you should have access to Remove Disease. But these are all trap options.

For a low-level party, finding a magic item is a huge deal. High-level parties, on the other hand, are inundated with more magic items than they could possibly ever use, and are always on the lookout for merchants to unload the stuff onto.

I'd say you shouldn't worry any more about trying to make magic items feel unique and special in a high-level game than you would about making starvation a possibility in a party with a 5th-level Cleric, or about making a few 1st-level Goblin Warriors a major challenge to a 20th-level party.

Eventually, you grow and evolve to the point where things that used to be a big deal are now small potatoes. Or if you don't, you're not a real high-level character. You're a low-level character with bigger numbers.

[RandomPeasant]

I feel like making "acquire a magic item" a quest is something that will only ever work well at certain levels.

It's also something that is progressively less exciting to do for your second or fifth or tenth magic item. "Retrieve the Godbreaker from its vault of traps and monsters deep in the astral plane" is a fine high level adventure. But "run this dungeon to get a scroll so you can cure Greg's character's blindness" is garbage at any level. It's the same thing as making spells require rare and expensive ritual components. One adventure to unlock teleport is fine. An adventure every time someone botches their save fighting a Bodak is ass.


I'd say the most common pitfall in D&D is to play in high-level games, but try to treat them as low-level games with bigger numbers.

This is absolutely true. If you want a game that is like a 6th level game forever, play E6. You can get what you want, and you need to change exactly zero rules. More than that, insisting on dragging characters out over 20th levels hurts those characters. If you aren't giving the 20th level Fighter the tools to compete at 20th level, all you're doing is arbitrarily declaring that some people are going to have to wait way longer for the Fighter abilities they want to have.

[ShurikVch]

First off, I think there's a difference between "is in a setting-specific book" and "is inextricably tied to the setting it's in". Lots of setting-specific Feats are generic garbage you could slot into any game without much trouble. But some of the eberron materials definitely fall into the latter camp in my mind: cyrite is created by that unknown magical event, byeshk bypasses the DR of daelkyr, and Targath bypasses the DR of Deathless. Those monsters don't even exist outside Eberron, so even if the material did, why would you want it?
Red Steel campaign setting includes DR/red steel