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View Full Version : Can we make a viable build from many dips for interesting features?



Greywander
2022-04-27, 05:56 PM
You might be familiar with the rather abserd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZCIh_3b5K8) concept of dipping 1 level into every class. That's not what this is about. Though a number of classes and subclasses have quite useful abilities that are frontloaded, meaning we can pick up a broad variety of useful abilities by dipping into several classes. What I'm curious about is if we can make something that's viable in combat while also having good out-of-combat utility thanks to all these dips?

As a couple examples, we have the Echo Knight's echo. It's at-will, so there's no resource expenditure. This means we can always make use of it any time it comes in handy. Aside from its combat potential, we can also use it as a form of at-will teleportation. The max range is 60 feet, and also the echo can apparently fly. It may or may not be able to go through walls (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645252-Can-the-Echo-Knight-s-echo-go-through-walls), but we can still use it to teleport through walls, albeit by a bit more circuitous means.

To teleport through a wall, you have to first summon a familiar to the other side of the wall. We don't need to see where we summon the familiar to, only that the spot is unoccupied and within range. We can then see through our familiar's senses as an action, then use a bonus action to create the echo in a spot we can see. Since we can see the other side of the wall, we can create the echo there. On our next turn, we can teleport through.

Speaking of familiars, another great dip is into warlock for Pact of the Chain. Find Familiar is already a great spell, but the additional options added by Pact of the Chain make it even better. Voice of the Chain Master and Investment of the Chain Master can make the familiar even better (though I think the latter is optional). It's a bit outdated, but an older thread of mine details many of the things you can do with an imp familiar (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar).

Another feature I had in mind was Minor Conjuration. The Conjurer subclass has never been of particular interest to me, for some reason I'm just not into summoning, but despite that I really like their 2nd level feature. Again, this is at-will, so you can use it as much as you want. You can just straight up create an item out of nothing and have it for up to 1 hour. And after that, you can just conjure the item again if you want. You can only have one item at a time, but even so it's great utility.

Another good feature is Wild Shape. Being able to turn into a number of different animals has a lot of utility value. Not sure if it makes sense to go Moon druid for access to the additional forms, since it doesn't give you access to swimming or flying forms any earlier, and you're probably not using these for combat if you're just dipping.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what else might make for a good dip. I feel like rogue, bard, cleric, and/or ranger might be good choices, but I'm undecided on subclass picks. I'm also not sure about warlock or druid subclasses, though I'm leaning strongly toward Genie for warlock (since the benefits scale with proficiency bonus, and are pretty nice). Shepherd has an interesting feature in being able to talk to animals, but the other feature mostly scales with druid level, so not great for a dip.

If we're dipping into warlock, then perhaps the best option for combat viability is Eldritch Blast. We might want to push warlock as far as 5th level in order to get that third invocation, allowing us to grab Agonizing and Repelling Blast, in addition to Voice of the Chain Master. That, plus the Genie patron, will help us to pull some weight in combat. (Plus, we can also ghostlance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZeSm9v-ujc).) We'll also have access to 3rd level spells, with two short rest slots and however many long rest slots, so we can throw out some decent leveled spells.

Not sure what race would be a good fit for this. I feel like something like dhampir for spiderclimb or hexblood for spooky utility features, or a flying race maybe. What would even be the backstory/personality for such a character? Maybe go hexblood or fairy and fluff yourself as some kind of fey trickster.

In summary, probably a Genielock 5 / Echo Knight 3 or 4 / Conjurer 2 / Druid 2 / +others. EB for our main attack. At-will teleportation (including through walls) via our echo, chainlock superfamiliar, Minor Conjuration, Wild Shape, and plenty of room for more dips. Heck, this sounds a lot like a trickster build I tried, and failed, to make RAW some time ago.

Bobthewizard
2022-04-27, 07:27 PM
This is of course very MAD. But you're likely focusing on Charisma since you're relying on EB. So let's take the last 7 levels in Creation Bard. Performance of Creation and Animating Performance fit your theme here with even more things you can create. This gets you 4th level spells, bardic inspiration, jack of all trades and expertise.

Maybe go changeling for your race, then you can pretend to be each of these classes as a different person.

tiornys
2022-04-27, 08:15 PM
This should be viable, yes. Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast is one of the best ways to decouple your combat effectiveness from your individual class levels.

As long as we have themes of teleporting and having minions, when we go Druid we might as well go Wildfire Druid for unlimited 15' teleports for our party members (yeah, same resource as our Wild Shape but that's something we can work around).

Creation Bard 7 is an interesting direction, but I think we can pick up more classes and features. We already need Wis for Druid and can use Dex for Fighter, so we can multiclass Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 to add even more forced movement to our blasting (or damage or self movement, but mostly forced movement).

Clerics and Sorcerers both grant their subclasses at level 1, making them ripe for dipping. Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond is easily the most powerful feature we can grab on a dip, or we could go Life to enable the Lifeberry combo. For Sorcerer there's nothing that strikes me as highly thematic so I'd likely default to Clockwork Soul for maximum spell access. Divine Soul's save bonus is a strong contender too. Two more Sorcerer levels gives us metamagic and rounds out 20 levels: Genielock 5 / Echo Knight 4 / Conjurer 2 / Wildfire Druid 2 /Swarmkeeper Ranger 3/Peace Cleric 1/Clockwork Soul Sorcerer 3. Anyone want to propose a build order?

Willowhelm
2022-04-27, 09:01 PM
If it works for you then go for it. My question though - why all the dips for these features vs spell equivalents? Is talking to animals better than casting speak with animals? Or the gnome ability to talk to small creatures?

Is wildshape that useful with a 2 level dip compared to polymorph?

Is a pact of the chain familiar that much better than a normal familiar (or a dm-optional other choice like a tressym)

Etc.

The features are neat but how much of their utility can you get without the dips just with careful spell selection?

kazaryu
2022-04-27, 09:04 PM
You might be familiar with the rather abserd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZCIh_3b5K8) concept of dipping 1 level into every class. That's not what this is about. Though a number of classes and subclasses have quite useful abilities that are frontloaded, meaning we can pick up a broad variety of useful abilities by dipping into several classes. What I'm curious about is if we can make something that's viable in combat while also having good out-of-combat utility thanks to all these dips?


i have, on a few occsaions, alluded to building a character out of 4 levels each in 5 full caster classes (including warlock). you can get several interesting interactions. from the overly complicated, and resource heavy, but hilarious combo of 'get hit to trigger hellish rebuke at 7th level. force a failed save using diviner levels, transmute the spell to thunder damage using sorcerer levels, then maximize said damage with cleric levels. and just...deal 80 damage to some idiot that hit you for 10 damage.

to the far more simple things like 'quicken high level armor of agathys->bladeward' or 'path to the grave->quicken inflict wounds/guiding bolt'

also, due to your many knownspells/spell preparation slots you can even choose from various utility options/out of combat options. like alarm, charm person, comprehend languages. and also spells that have niche uses, but might otherwise not typically fit into a build, like arcane lock, continual flame, or beast sense. without having to sacrifice in combat damage/utility spells.

all the while you have hte fairly reliable EB/AB->quick EB/AB.




Clerics and Sorcerers both grant their subclasses at level 1, making them ripe for dipping. Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond is easily the most powerful feature we can grab on a dip, or we could go Life to enable the Lifeberry combo. For Sorcerer there's nothing that strikes me as highly thematic so I'd likely default to Clockwork Soul for maximum spell access. Divine Soul's save bonus is a strong contender too. Two more Sorcerer levels gives us metamagic and rounds out 20 levels: Genielock 5 / Echo Knight 4 / Conjurer 2 / Wildfire Druid 2 /Swarmkeeper Ranger 3/Peace Cleric 1/Clockwork Soul Sorcerer 3. Anyone want to propose a build order?

its definitely up there, but hexwarrior/hexblades curse is easily competitive. especially as a dip. HBC is really good when combined with scorching ray, and (depending on DM) magic missile.

and depending on party makeup order domains voice of authority is also up there (specifically combined with a rogue or paladin)

animorte
2022-04-27, 09:25 PM
I absolutely love doing this just for fun. Naturally life takes over sometimes I don't have time to conjure a lot of my ideas from their various homes. I need to sort it all out and put it together. Or find a wizard to do it for me.

Some fun things off the top of my head I've done and posted in other random threads on this forum:
SAD Caster shenanigans (cha) - Spirits Bard/Wild Magic Sorcerer/TomeLock/Choice Paladin
SAD Duelist (cha) - Swords Bard/Hexblade Warlock/Vengeance Paladin/Swashbuckler Rogue
GTFAway from me (MAD) - Spores Druid/Swarmkeeper Ranger/Undead Warlock (with Cloak of Flies)

Of course I much more in-depth on these and also reasonably viable builds with up to twice as many dips for features. We'll get back to that another time.

KorvinStarmast
2022-04-27, 10:22 PM
I find the question to be abserd.
OK, who got that joke?