Is this broken for a player race?

[werescythe]

So I had this idea for a player race that lives underground and has mutated to where they don't have eyes. My thought is to make up for this, they would ve incapable of doing perception checks based off of sight (because no eyes obviously), but that they make up for it with advantage on perception hearing checks and a tremorsense (something usually only seen with monsters like the ankheg) of 30ft.

The question is, is this broken or does it seem reasonable?

Also would giving a player race a burrowing speed potentially be an issue?

[kingcheesepants]

Tremorsense only would be pretty crippling when going up against anything that's either stationary or doesn't touch the ground and 30ft of being able to "see" a creature is fairly crippling to any casters since so many spells require sight and spellcasters often want to be out of melee range but if they're stuck within 30 ft, well that's just a round of movement for the majority of creatures.

On the other hand a burrowing speed is very strong. There are a handful of ways for PCs to get a burrowing speed but all the ones I can think of off the top of my head either require wildshaping/polymorphing into a different form or using an item like Claws of the Umberhulk which limit you pretty severely. Having that as a normal PC who can still do everything they can normally do would enable far stronger hit and run tactics than are normally available. Even a flying speed (which trivializes fights against anything without ranged options) Is going to pale in comparison to the ability to hit an enemy and then just do underground and have total cover. Very few monsters, spells or standard attacks have a way to damage a creature that's under complete cover 10 feet underground. Typically if you're fighting against a creature like a purple worm or a dragon which has a burrowing speed you either ready an attack to use when they emerge or figure out some way to lure them out and keep them from going back underground. But a PC will have more options open to them to counter such tactics and will absolutely dominate. That is right up until you go somewhere where they can't burrow or they have to fight a flying enemy, in which case they'll be pretty much useless.

So I personally wouldn't recommend doing this, it's "balanced" in that it has very strong strengths and very damaging weaknesses and that's fine in a monster cause the monster only exists in an encounter or two and is meant to be beaten. So having a monster that's overwhelmingly strong until the PCs can figure out a way to take advantage of its weakness is great. Having a PC doing the same is much less so.

[Mastikator]

Unless tremorsense counts as "seeing" then it's broken in a bad way, many spells require visual contact and this would prevent the race from playing adequate spell casters.

Burrowing speed may also be difficult and the DM would constantly need to check what kind of ground everything is and what kind of ground the burrower can traverse through, a burrower can go underground, under the wall and come up in the secret vault that the players are not supposed to go through. Questions like "does this leave a hole behind" and "how does it affect structural stability of the dungeon" would bog down the game.

IMO instead just say that the race has daylight blindness, nearsighted (disadvantage beyond 120f) and darkvision 120f range.
Tremorsense could be a resource that they activate, like proficiency times per day you can as a bonus action gain blindsight out to 120 feet and can see through solid objects and around corners with advantage on perception against moving targets.

Instead of burrowing I'd give them the Mold Earth cantrip which they can only cast with touch range.

[Xervous]

As written it seems pretty bad. 30’ max vision gets you killed, it will just be a one note wonder with its burrowing. Great memorable features for a monster, terrible for a player.

[werescythe]

Tremorsense only would be pretty crippling when going up against anything that's either stationary or doesn't touch the ground and 30ft of being able to "see" a creature is fairly crippling to any casters since so many spells require sight and spellcasters often want to be out of melee range but if they're stuck within 30 ft, well that's just a round of movement for the majority of creatures.

So, what if they had a feature where tremorsense did count as seeing for the purpose of spellcasting and it was extended to 40-60ft, would that still be balanced?

[kingcheesepants]

Burrowing speed may also be difficult and the DM would constantly need to check what kind of ground everything is and what kind of ground the burrower can traverse through, a burrower can go underground, under the wall and come up in the secret vault that the players are not supposed to go through. Questions like "does this leave a hole behind" and "how does it affect structural stability of the dungeon" would bog down the game.


Druids and anyone with polymorph can already turn into a badger and burrow into areas that they might not be able to access normally and burrowing speeds do not leave a tunnel unless they specify that they do (like the purple worm). The much bigger problem with burrowing is that if you retain all your abilities while burrowing there's no reason for you not to be using hit and run tactics where you just stay underground all the time with full cover and unable to be hit by the vast majority of enemies.


So, what if they had a feature where tremorsense did count as seeing for the purpose of spellcasting and it was extended to 40-60ft, would that still be balanced?

60 ft at least matches a normal darkvision range and a med range cantrip's range so it's not nearly as bad. Honestly given the drawbacks of being unable to see things that fly/hover, the inability to read, the inability to distinguish colors at all, and the myriad of other problems that blindness causes, I'd say it wouldn't be too crazy to even go as far as 120 ft of tremorsense. That matches the range of the superior darkvision that some subterranean races get and also the ranges of the long range cantrips (fire bolt and eldritch blast) and you'd be able to use shortbows and crossbows at their normal range. They'd still be constrained in using the really long range stuff like long bows and freezing sphere and they'd still be effectively useless against flying enemies and unable to read but those problems can be worked through and aren't nearly as crippling as completely blind past 30 ft. Tremorsense would let you see invisible enemies (that aren't flying) and it would let you function normally in a fog cloud or other source of heavy obscurement so it's definitely a strong feature. But if the tremorsense is the main feature of the race it doesn't feel like it'd be too strong with 60ft or even 120 ft. It's fairly comparable in power to other races main features such as gnomes having advantage on mental saves against magic or dwarves getting some extra HP and a resistance to poison. Strong and it enables some kinda cheesy strategies but it has downsides and isn't too too bad in terms of potential for abuse. I like it, it's fun and unique without being too crazy.

Ditch the burrowing though. Maybe a walk through difficult terrain feature like earth genasi get or mold earth or a once a day stone shape or something but not full on burrowing.

[Mastikator]

Druids and anyone with polymorph can already turn into a badger and burrow into areas that they might not be able to access normally and burrowing speeds do not leave a tunnel unless they specify that they do (like the purple worm). The much bigger problem with burrowing is that if you retain all your abilities while burrowing there's no reason for you not to be using hit and run tactics where you just stay underground all the time with full cover and unable to be hit by the vast majority of enemies.
Indeed, I think burrowing is problematic for the same reason flying player races are, there's no resource cost and doesn't compete with other features like concentration or somatic/verbal components.

[Phhase]

So I had this idea for a player race that lives underground and has mutated to where they don't have eyes. My thought is to make up for this, they would ve incapable of doing perception checks based off of sight (because no eyes obviously), but that they make up for it with advantage on perception hearing checks and a tremorsense (something usually only seen with monsters like the ankheg) of 30ft.

The question is, is this broken or does it seem reasonable?

Also would giving a player race a burrowing speed potentially be an issue?

Sounds kinda like grimlock! I like it. Burrowing is powerful but fun, make sure you define its limits.

[werescythe]

60 ft at least matches a normal darkvision range and a med range cantrip's range so it's not nearly as bad. Honestly given the drawbacks of being unable to see things that fly/hover, the inability to read, the inability to distinguish colors at all, and the myriad of other problems that blindness causes, I'd say it wouldn't be too crazy to even go as far as 120 ft of tremorsense. That matches the range of the superior darkvision that some subterranean races get and also the ranges of the long range cantrips (fire bolt and eldritch blast) and you'd be able to use shortbows and crossbows at their normal range. They'd still be constrained in using the really long range stuff like long bows and freezing sphere and they'd still be effectively useless against flying enemies and unable to read but those problems can be worked through and aren't nearly as crippling as completely blind past 30 ft. Tremorsense would let you see invisible enemies (that aren't flying) and it would let you function normally in a fog cloud or other source of heavy obscurement so it's definitely a strong feature. But if the tremorsense is the main feature of the race it doesn't feel like it'd be too strong with 60ft or even 120 ft. It's fairly comparable in power to other races main features such as gnomes having advantage on mental saves against magic or dwarves getting some extra HP and a resistance to poison. Strong and it enables some kinda cheesy strategies but it has downsides and isn't too too bad in terms of potential for abuse. I like it, it's fun and unique without being too crazy.

Ditch the burrowing though. Maybe a walk through difficult terrain feature like earth genasi get or mold earth or a once a day stone shape or something but not full on burrowing.

Thank you for the feedback, this was really pretty fun to read.

So let me post the race stats and tell me what you think.

Race Traits:
-No eyes: can't see normally and can't make perception checks for sight.
-Enhanced sense: has a tremorsense of 120ft and sensing creatures this way counts as seeing them for the sake of spellcasting, along with advantage on perception hearing checks.
-Burrowing talons: a natural weapon that deals 1D6 slashing damage.

Then either:
-an ability to move unhindered through difficult terrain.
Or
-an ability that is like misty step, where the character "burrows" underground (limited to the terrain that is allowed for burrow speed) and pop up with 30ft, a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus.

What do you think?

[kingcheesepants]

Thank you for the feedback, this was really pretty fun to read.

So let me post the race stats and tell me what you think.

Race Traits:
-No eyes: can't see normally and can't make perception checks for sight.
-Enhanced sense: has a tremorsense of 120ft and sensing creatures this way counts as seeing them for the sake of spellcasting, along with advantage on perception hearing checks.
-Burrowing talons: a natural weapon that deals 1D6 slashing damage.

Then either:
-an ability to move unhindered through difficult terrain.
Or
-an ability that is like misty step, where the character "burrows" underground (limited to the terrain that is allowed for burrow speed) and pop up with 30ft, a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus.

What do you think?

I like that, this is starting to sound like a race I'd both like to play and be happy to have at my table. Having 120 ft of Tremorsense but no other senses I think makes for some unique and interesting situations. Like Toph from Avatar the Last Airbender. She relied on a Tremorsense and she kicked butt and was often the most perceptive of the team but then she couldn't read or make out colors or features and it lead to quite a few funny or dramatic situations.

Natural weapons are more of a ribbon than anything but still it's nice to be able to never be totally disarmed and it gives monks a slight boost in the early game (when they can most use it).

So between having an always on but somewhat modest ability like ignore difficult terrain or having the more powerful but limited in use ability like the pop out one, I like the pop out ability more. I actually think mechanically the ignore difficult terrain might have the edge simply because it's always on and you can use it both to get through natural/enemy hazards and in conjunction with your team's control effects. However the pop out ability is clearly more powerful when you need it and overall it seems a lot more fun, I love the image of escaping from a group of enemies by digging past them or bypassing a trap or a hazard by digging past it or emerging from just behind and underneath a guy and surprising him. Having it be a limited resource makes it tactical and it has great value in both exploration and combat and if you really don't want them to be able to use it all you have to do is have stone flooring and there you go.

Overall I think you've hit a good balance where the race feels unique and it has enough cool features that it can be attractive to anyone but it isn't so strong that it's an autopick for anyone. I don't think a race like this would ever see official publication just because being permanently blind and using Tremorsense is such a deviation from the norm and will require both the DM and the player to think about a lot of things that they wouldn't otherwise consider. But if you're willing to go through a little extra hassle I think it could be totally worth it.

[Kane0]

Sounds kinda like grimlock! I like it. Burrowing is powerful but fun, make sure you define its limits.
That was also my first thought.



Race Traits:
-No eyes: can't see normally and can't make perception checks for sight.
-Enhanced sense: has a tremorsense of 120ft and sensing creatures this way counts as seeing them for the sake of spellcasting, along with advantage on perception hearing checks.
-Burrowing talons: a natural weapon that deals 1D6 slashing damage.

Then either:
-an ability to move unhindered through difficult terrain.
Or
-an ability that is like misty step, where the character "burrows" underground (limited to the terrain that is allowed for burrow speed) and pop up with 30ft, a number of times equal to their proficiency bonus.


Dont forget the traditional +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1 stat bonuses.

I wouldnt do misty step but just give an ability to treat your speed as a burrow speed for one turn proficiency bonus times per day.

And a ribbon ability for flavor, like being able to determine minerals by touch or taste, or being able to eat certain minerals or other inedible materials. Would make for interesting ration packs!

Edit: given the way tremorsense works I could see the argument for giving it a range of 60 or 90 feet instead.

[Sigreid]

I'd go with blindsight instead of tremor sense. Reason being that tremor sense wouldn't really help with non-moving obstacles (furniture, rocks, walls, etc.)

[Greywander]

This sounds like something I came up with a while back. It wasn't a race, but a template. Using a druidic ritual, the person turns into a stone skeleton, technically an elemental, rather than undead. You'd lose both your eyes and your ability to speak, but you gained tremorsense out to 120 feet and blindsight out to 10 feet. You also gained advantage on Perception checks using hearing, and couldn't be deafened. But you also had vulnerability to thunder damage. Since you can't speak, I also introduced nonverbal communication as additional languages, including sign language, tap code, and bardic songspeak (a music-based language). You can also perform somatic components by vibrating your body, or verbally talk to other creatures with tremorsense.

Something I didn't notice at the time was that tremorsense apparently doesn't count as sight, e.g. for spellcasting or attacking. So if I revisited this then I'd be sure to clarify that it does count as sight.

[CapnWildefyr]

Would echolocation-style blindsight be better? That way, they could potentially develop a "written" language based on tones or sounds, like strings of shells that each makes a different sound as you run a "claw" down the string. Or a braille-like written language. Whereas, for tremorsense, do they wear shoes or go barefoot? It'd have to be barefoot or they'd be "blinded."

Also, are there weaknesses or vulnerabilities? I'm not saying you need any but if hypersensitive to sound or tremors, then be sure to figure out what that means in game terms when there's an explosion or lots of things moving (like a stampede of rothe). Players will try to game that system.

One side note: one of these critters might have an AWFUL time trying to describe sounds, let alone understand the concept of colors. They would have a zillion words for sounds, and to pick just one when trying to describe a soft drow slipper's footfall on loose rock -- which they have a specific word for -- might not be easy.

[greenstone]

Next question - is this going to be fun to play at the table?

Noting that members of this race can't read signs, menus, plot-clue notes, books or scrolls. They can't recognise faces, can't navigate, can't go shopping, etc.

[Greywander]

Next question - is this going to be fun to play at the table?

Noting that members of this race can't read signs, menus, plot-clue notes, books or scrolls. They can't recognise faces, can't navigate, can't go shopping, etc.
In my mind it would be a bit like Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender. So yes, being blind would limit them in some pretty severe ways, but the rest of the party can handle most such things themselves. In return, the character with tremorsense would be able to "see through walls", sort of. It's a hefty trade off, but I think it's managable.

However, I would say that such a race's senses should look more like the template I referred to above: 120 feet tremorsense, and 10 feet (or more) of blindsight. Remember, they are blind beyond this range, so this isn't like darkvision at all. The long range tremorsense makes spellcasting viable (assuming tremorsense counts as "seeing"; if it doesn't, such a race should have an ability to make it so), and is actually pretty exploitable with things like Fog Cloud or Darkness. But you're blind beyond that range, and you're also blind to anything that isn't touching the ground (flying enemies). The short range blindsight makes melee more viable, as it has the same exploits and isn't hindered by flying enemies (though getting into melee with a flying enemy is another problem).

In short, it's a massive trade off. In most typical cases, you won't notice much of a difference (e.g. grounded enemies within 120 feet). If you try, though, you can really exploit this and get a massive amount of mileage out of it. But then there are also edge cases that will leave you at a disadvantage. It's probably not "balanced" in the sense that you'd probably never see an official race like this, but the trade off should be sufficient that you could have one PC who was this race in a party of regular PCs and it would be fine. Sometimes the other PCs would have to hold their hand (figuratively or literally), and other times they'd be a major boon to the party.

There are also a couple ways to get around the blindness, e.g. if they needed to read something. The easiest is with Find Familiar. There's also the Ersatz Eye, though you probably can't use it if you don't have eye sockets.

As for a burrow speed, I'm not sure. Given the Toph vibes, I'll echo what was said above and say to give them free Mold Earth. As movement, it's not as quick as burrowing, but it also opens up a lot of utility function. That said, it depends on the fluff for the race. I've tried doing a burrow speed on a homebrew race before, and it became laughably easy to burrow under enemies, pop out to attack, then pop back under where they couldn't reach me. Mold Earth doesn't allow those kinds of shenanigans, though it might allow you to carve out tunnels ahead of time and use them in a similar fashion.

[greenstone]

There are also a couple ways to get around the blindness, e.g. if they needed to read something. The easiest is with Find Familiar.

If they can't read (from never having learnt) then find familiar is not going to help.

I'm not even sure it works at all - how do you use a sense you have no concept of? To twist the question a bit, if a familiar has a sense a normal character doesn't (like electricity or magnetism), would you allow a mage to make use of it?

[Sparky McDibben]

So I had this idea for a player race that lives underground and has mutated to where they don't have eyes. My thought is to make up for this, they would ve incapable of doing perception checks based off of sight (because no eyes obviously), but that they make up for it with advantage on perception hearing checks and a tremorsense (something usually only seen with monsters like the ankheg) of 30ft.

The question is, is this broken or does it seem reasonable?

Also would giving a player race a burrowing speed potentially be an issue?

Naw, you can just make 'em like Relg from the Belgariad. The burrowing speed is slow (20' for natural rock; 10' for any kind of worked stone). I'd just give them blindsight 60'.