Unarmed sword sage/cleric

[Belzyk]

I am in the process of making a cleric. I looked around a bit but am struggling to find how best to build this. I would like to use unarmed sword sage over monk for a basic cleric/sword sage hybird. Can anyone help out with this? What stats and how should I progress? Also my character is a Saint (dm stuff) so I have the full power of Saint unlocked to me without the feat requirements .

The stats I rolled are 17 17 17 15 13 11

[Maat Mons]

Usually, if you dip two levels of Swordsage, it goes Swordsage 1 / Other Class 6 / Sword Sage +1. That's the minimum amount you can delay Swordsage 2 and still get a stance of higher than 1st level.

Usually, if you mix divine casting and maneuvers, it goes Martial Adept 1 / Cleric 4 / Ruby Knight Vindicator. Swordsage wouldn't be the typical choice, since it has a weak recovery mechanic, and it's benefits don't really carry over into prestige classes.

On casters, delaying casting is typically a major hindrance. Swordsage requires an extra non-caster level to get Wisdom to AC, so Monk or Ninja would generally be prefered. Also, note that at higher levels it maye be feasible to use a Monk's Belt for Wisdom to AC, instead of sacrificing levels for it.

I have a suspicion that Wee Jas isn't goodly enough to be sponsoring Saints, so Ruby Knight Vindicator might be off the table.

[Gruftzwerg]

Usually, if you dip two levels of Swordsage, it goes Swordsage 1 / Other Class 6 / Sword Sage +1. That's the minimum amount you can delay Swordsage 2 and still get a stance of higher than 1st level.


Imho Swordsage 2 is a trap for most builds. Often Monk 1 / Swordsage 1 is a better solution. Monk gets a bonus feat (which can be a fighter feat with the ACF taken) and has the WIS bonus to AC instantly. Overall the better choice. SS 2 is only in a few edge chases better.

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I would suggest to go for the Sacred Fist prc. It advances unarmed strike + cleric casting.

If you already are a saint, exalted feats would be fitting I guess. Thus I would recommend to get Touch of Golden Ice (feat). This gives you a touch attack against evil creatures that deals initial 1d6 DEX dmg and 2d6 DEX as secondary dmg. As touch attack, you can also use it with your unarmed strike full attacks.

Add Shivering Touch for another 3d6 DEX dmg for overkill.

Get Weapon Finesse to sole focus on WIS (primary) and DEX (secondary).

Get Travel Devotion for some mobility.

Add Divine Metamagic for some 24h duration buffs (e.g. Divine Power^^).

Maybe go for TWF feat line to get more attacks/round, but I don't think it is mandatory.

Later the Quicken Spell feat (for Shivering Touch) could be interesting.

[Gorthawar]

Lots of good advice...

If you already are a saint, exalted feats would be fitting...

Get Weapon Finesse to sole focus on WIS (primary) and DEX (secondary).


I'd use intuitive strike instead for Wis to attack as well as you are already exalted.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'd use intuitive strike instead for Wis to attack as well as you are already exalted.

good point.

I did forgot about that.

[Belzyk]

Imho Swordsage 2 is a trap for most builds. Often Monk 1 / Swordsage 1 is a better solution. Monk gets a bonus feat (which can be a fighter feat with the ACF taken) and has the WIS bonus to AC instantly. Overall the better choice. SS 2 is only in a few edge chases better.

_________________

I would suggest to go for the Sacred Fist prc. It advances unarmed strike + cleric casting.

If you already are a saint, exalted feats would be fitting I guess. Thus I would recommend to get Touch of Golden Ice (feat). This gives you a touch attack against evil creatures that deals initial 1d6 DEX dmg and 2d6 DEX as secondary dmg. As touch attack, you can also use it with your unarmed strike full attacks.

Add Shivering Touch for another 3d6 DEX dmg for overkill.

Get Weapon Finesse to sole focus on WIS (primary) and DEX (secondary).

Get Travel Devotion for some mobility.

Add Divine Metamagic for some 24h duration buffs (e.g. Divine Power^^).

Maybe go for TWF feat line to get more attacks/round, but I don't think it is mandatory.

Later the Quicken Spell feat (for Shivering Touch) could be interesting.

So if I am understanding correctly. Swordsage would not be a good choice to go with cleric. Instead I should just do the basic monk into cleric into sacred fist. For what I am wanting. (Basically a melee unarmed cleric style fighter). Instead of trying to fit in a martial adept class. Is this correct?

Monk 1/cleric5/sacred fist X.

[Maat Mons]

If you don't mind the code of conduct on Sacred Fist. I mean, yeesh, losing spellcasting if you pick up a weapon? So much for firing arrows at flying enemies, or carrying a magic sword back to town to sell.

[Belzyk]

If you don't mind the code of conduct on Sacred Fist. I mean, yeesh, losing spellcasting if you pick up a weapon? So much for firing arrows at flying enemies, or carrying a magic sword back to town to sell.

I mean that’s the thing that’s not my area. If I need to attack at ranges I’m a cleric lol I have plenty of ranged spells. Also other players are around who will move magical stuff. It’s not really a hinderance at all. It’s not like a DM can tell you you have to personally move something that will knowingly mess your entire build up.

What I am trying to figure out was if I could build a Sacred fist style character out of a swordsage instead of monk. But it seems monk 1 may be a better dip. If I am understanding right.

Or if there is a non RKV prc that I could advance In to increase my casting and martial.

I was already given Saint without the feat requirements for story reasons. I doubt very much my DM will allow me the most busted cleric PRC possible.

[Gruftzwerg]

What I am trying to figure out was if I could build a Sacred fist style character out of a swordsage instead of monk. But it seems monk 1 may be a better dip. If I am understanding right.

Or if there is a non RKV prc that I could advance In to increase my casting and martial.

I was already given Saint without the feat requirements for story reasons. I doubt very much my DM will allow me the most busted cleric PRC possible.

Imho you don't need SS. If you really want to have some maneuvers and a stance, go for monk 1 / SS 1. Otherwise a single lvl dip into monk is imho better.

Sacred Fist still does cripple your casting progression. But you already made that decision by not going full cleric, so I guess that it okish. So imho not a very strong cleric PRC overall. But in a build like this it does what it is supposed to do, and thus blends in very well imho.

Sacred Fist is the sole PRC that advances Unarmed Strike and Cleric casting at the same time. Sure there are other PRC that are also gish oriented, but don't have the focus on Unarmed Strike.

[Belzyk]

Imho you don't need SS. If you really want to have some maneuvers and a stance, go for monk 1 / SS 1. Otherwise a single lvl dip into monk is imho better.

Sacred Fist still does cripple your casting progression. But you already made that decision by not going full cleric, so I guess that it okish. So imho not a very strong cleric PRC overall. But in a build like this it does what it is supposed to do, and thus blends in very well imho.

Sacred Fist is the sole PRC that advances Unarmed Strike and Cleric casting at the same time. Sure there are other PRC that are also gish oriented, but don't have the focus on Unarmed Strike.

I mean I can argue Sacred fist is a full caster RAW because RAW it states you gain caster levels every level. Description always trumps table in 3.5. but even loosing the 2 CL from the table I’m still 17th level. Thank you very much. I’ll stick to monk 1 :D

Thank you all for your different inputs.

[Gruftzwerg]

I mean I can argue Sacred fist is a full caster RAW because RAW it states you gain caster levels every level. Description always trumps table in 3.5. but even loosing the 2 CL from the table I’m still 17th level. Thank you very much. I’ll stick to monk 1 :D

Thank you all for your different inputs.

I did forgot to mention: Lion Tribe Warrior (feat)
Gives pounce with a single light weapon (thus doesn't work with TWF. With TWF you get a single attack with each, bot no extra attacks from BAB). Since the build sole uses Unarmed Strikes (light weapon) this is a good alternative to Travel Devotion for the mobility. Take either one. Both have ups and downs.

[Rebel7284]

The best way to progress both initating and divine spellcasting is Ruby Knight Vindicator

Cloistered Cleric 2/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1 is a good entry for a more combat-oriented Ruby Knight Vindicator, with that said, RKV gets access to Shadow Hand maneuvers and thus can play like a swordsage with 0 swordsage levels ie: Cleric 4/Crusader 1 entry.

If Sacred Fist is ruled to lose caster levels, it's 100% not worth it. Without lost caster levels, it's fine I guess. Full BAB is nifty.

Can Exalted Characters sneak attack? Sacred Outlaw(Dragon 357) might be a fun reason to just go Cloistered Cleric 8/Unarmed Swordsage 2/C. Cleric +10 and pick up assassin's stance for a high skills - high sneak attack caster with 9th level spells.

[Maat Mons]

For a Monk, one way to get Pounce is with the feats Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws) and Open Least Chakra (Hands). This relies on the Monk class' ability to treat unarmed strikes as natural weapons.

Are you planning to make use of virtual size increases for you unarmed damage? If not, I don't regard it as that important to max out your progression. At medium size, someone who fully invests in unarmed damage caps out at 2d10, average 11. Someone who takes the Superior Unarmed Strike feat without Monk levels caps out at 2d6, average 7. If someone casts Greater Mighty Wallop on you, that becomes a much larger difference, but otherwise it may not be worth the extra resources you have to invest to get there.