Circle Magic for Fully Spontaneous Casters & Spell Level Storage

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Circle Magic - from Red Wizard, Halruaan Elder, and Hathran - is used to increase caster level to 40 (for 24 hours), and apply Heighten Spell (max spell level of 20!), Empower, and Maximize to qualifying spells, even if none of the Circle members have these metamagics. (The effects of Circle Magic normally last 24 hours or until used, whichever happens first.) I understand and agree with the notion that a fully prepared caster like a Wizard or Cleric who can lead a Circle could bank a buncha spell levels from his spell donors and apply Empower/Heighten/Maximize to his prepared spells, then just sleep/reapply Circle Magic to boost all his spells with Heighten (L20), Empower, and Maximize since these spells remain prepared until spent or forcibly removed somehow.

What about for purely spontaneous casters like Bards and Sors? (Let's assume these characters lack all means of preparing spells, meaning no Arcane Preparation, etc.) I assumed each spell slot was simply 'potential energy' that became filled with a specific legal spell at cast time. Thus, a Sor/Hathran with wings of flurry as a level 4 spell known can apply the effects of Circle Magic at cast time, but not bank its metamagics like a Wizard could, even if wings of flurry is this character's only level 4 spell known. (Remember, at cast time, this character could cast a lower level spell via this level 4 slot.)

This matters because I intend to play a Sor/Hathran in a game where Circle Magic is allowed and I want to know the RAW on this.

Thankee!

[Darg]

You can increase your caster level.
You can increase your level for level checks.
You cannot apply metamagic without the spells being prepared. You need Arcane Preparation to benefit from this, or another preparation method.

You cannot heighten beyond 9th level as that is a limit of the feat, not the caster. You could quicken, silent, and still a 3rd level spell to make it take up a 9th. Circle magic would then allow you to heighten it to a 9th level spell (15), maximize it (18), and empower it (20).

[sleepyphoenixx]

You'll need Arcane Preparation (LEoF) and prepare the spells as a prepared caster would.


You can increase your caster level.
You can increase your level for level checks.
You cannot apply metamagic without the spells being prepared. You need Arcane Preparation to benefit from this, or another preparation method.

You cannot heighten beyond 9th level as that is a limit of the feat, not the caster. You could quicken, silent, and still a 3rd level spell to make it take up a 9th. Circle magic would then allow you to heighten it to a 9th level spell (15), maximize it (18), and empower it (20).

The FR version of Circle Magic explicitly lets you heighten spells to level 20 and apply empower and maximize on top of it without needing the feats or requiring a higher level spell slot.
A spontaneous caster can apply metamagic as normal, the only difference is that he'll lose all unused spell levels from circle magic after 24 hours while a prepared caster can apply them to his spells and keep them until cast.

[Darg]

The circle leader may add the feats listed to a spell even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).

It says nothing about bypassing the feat's limitation.


Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

[Endarire]

Circle Magic seems to me as a more specific case than the Heighten Spell feat.

[Darg]

All circle magic says is that if you apply the feats and it would raise the level of the spell higher than the caster's normal maximum you can still cast it. It says nothing that even comes close to saying that it allows heighten spell to increase a spell to 20th level. All metamagic causes a spell to be "prepared and cast as a higher-level spell." Saying circle magic allows heighten spell to go to 20th is like saying quicken spell increases the actual level of the spell just like heighten.

Similar terminology is found in the PHB under metamagic feats:


Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person , for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats).

If a DM want's to allow it to affect heighten spell that's fine. It just isn't RAW or RAI.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Circle Magic explicitly says the maximum spell level is 20, not 9. As the more specific source that supercedes the limitation from the Heighten Spell feat. That's RAW.

Also since you can only apply Heighten, Maximize and Empower with Circle Magic and Maximize and Empower only take 5 levels even if you interpret them to increase spell level - which they don't, that's also explicit RAW - your interpretation makes no sense.

[Biggus]

Also since you can only apply Heighten, Maximize and Empower with Circle Magic and Maximize and Empower only take 5 levels even if you interpret them to increase spell level - which they don't, that's also explicit RAW - your interpretation makes no sense.

Where does it say the MM feats don't increase spell level? As far as I can see, they don't increase the actual spell level - that's the whole point - but they do increase the "virtual spell level" which has its maximum at 20 for circle magic, which is what we're talking about here.

Not that it makes any difference to your argument, as you say there are still 6 spell levels left unused even with Maximise and Empower applied which have no other use than Heighten, so the existence of the spell level 20 limit makes no sense if Circle Magic isn't intended to allow you to Heighten spells past 9th level.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Where does it say the MM feats don't increase spell level? As far as I can see, they don't increase the actual spell level - that's the whole point - but they do increase the "virtual spell level" which has its maximum at 20 for circle magic, which is what we're talking about here.

Not that it makes any difference to your argument, as you say there are still 6 spell levels left unused even with Maximise and Empower applied which have no other use than Heighten, so the existence of the spell level 20 limit makes no sense if Circle Magic isn't intended to allow you to Heighten spells past 9th level.
In the feat section on metamagic feats:

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
Heighten Spell states otherwise because increasing actual spell level is the entire purpose of it.
The feat says "maximum level 9th" but Circle Magic says "maximum level 20th". They even use the exact same wording iirc.
And since Circle Magic is referencing the Heighten Spell feat it's the more specific source in this case, and specific trumps general.

The "virtual spell level" you're talking about is the "prepared and cast as a higher-level spell" bit, but since metamagic applied through Circle Magic doesn't need higher level slots to cast it's not relevant.

[Darg]

Not that it makes any difference to your argument, as you say there are still 6 spell levels left unused even with Maximise and Empower applied which have no other use than Heighten, so the existence of the spell level 20 limit makes no sense if Circle Magic isn't intended to allow you to Heighten spells past 9th level.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that you can stack other metamagics to get to that 20th level: "You could quicken, silent, and still a 3rd level spell to make it take up a 9th. Circle magic would then allow you to heighten it to a 9th level spell (15), maximize it (18), and empower it (20).


In the feat section on metamagic feats:

Heighten Spell states otherwise because increasing actual spell level is the entire purpose of it.
The feat says "maximum level 9th" but Circle Magic says "maximum level 20th". They even use the exact same wording iirc.
And since Circle Magic is referencing the Heighten Spell feat it's the more specific source in this case, and specific trumps general.

The "virtual spell level" you're talking about is the "prepared and cast as a higher-level spell" bit, but since metamagic applied through Circle Magic doesn't need higher level slots to cast it's not relevant.

You are missing the fact that circle magic mentions the circle leader's maximum spell level, not heighten spell's maximum level. A 7th level wizard has a maximum spell level of 4th. The only permission there is is one that allows you to add the benefit of certain metamagics even if they bring you over that maximum level of 4th to a maximum of 20th.

[RandomPeasant]

You are missing the fact that circle magic mentions the circle leader's maximum spell level, not heighten spell's maximum level.

And you are missing that "maximum spell level" is not used in the context of other metamagic feats. Empower Spell doesn't effect the spell level, that's the whole point. What Empower Spell does is cause a spell to use "a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level". It is Heighten Spell that causes a spell to have "a higher spell level than normal". To suggest that the ability allows you to do anything other than heighten spells up to 20th level would be to say that a Red Wizard who empowers a spell increases its DC.

[Darg]

And you are missing that "maximum spell level" is not used in the context of other metamagic feats. Empower Spell doesn't effect the spell level, that's the whole point. What Empower Spell does is cause a spell to use "a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level". It is Heighten Spell that causes a spell to have "a higher spell level than normal". To suggest that the ability allows you to do anything other than heighten spells up to 20th level would be to say that a Red Wizard who empowers a spell increases its DC.

By your definition, circle magic would allow you to apply up to 8 levels of metamagic to a first level spell to make it 9th level, then heighten it to 20th (29), maximize it (32), and empower it (34). Then you could go on to empower and maximize every spell you have prepared for free. That makes 0 sense in the context of the rules as written in the PHB or for circle magic.


Add Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or Heighten Spell metamagic feats to spells currently prepared by the circle leader. Each bonus level counts as one additional spell level required by the application of a metamagic feat to a spell.

Maximize and empower are not free additions to every spell you have prepared. Circle magic calls the "increased spell slot cost" "additional spell levels." As this is the sentence right before the mention of the "circle leader's normal maximum spell level," it is quite plainly referring to a caster's "normal maximum spell level"; or in common parlance by reversing the above conversion, "normal maximum spell slot." This means that maximize and empower do in fact require bonus levels equal to the level increase they provide (3 and 2 respectively) while also contributing to the maximum spell level of 20th. It does not remove any limitation provided by the feat itself other than the slot cost.

The PHB says metamagic increases the level of the spell and circle magic says metamagic increases the level of the spell. It's fine to house rule that it isn't so.

[Biggus]

I mentioned earlier in the thread that you can stack other metamagics to get to that 20th level: "You could quicken, silent, and still a 3rd level spell to make it take up a 9th. Circle magic would then allow you to heighten it to a 9th level spell (15), maximize it (18), and empower it (20).


I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. This quote clearly supports my argument and not yours: it says you can use ordinary metamagic up to 9th level. After that you have to use Circle Magic for the remaining 11 spell levels. It even shows in the example using heighten for 6 levels, just as I said in my previous post.

[RandomPeasant]

Maximize and empower are not free additions to every spell you have prepared.

This doesn't support your position. If they "count as one additional spell level" and you can apply them up to 20, that is straightforwardly a "specific overrides general" argument by which you can Heighten to 20 via Circle Magic. It would get you to "can't apply both Heighten to 20 and Empower", but that still seems to be incompatible with your initial claim.


As this is the sentence right before the mention of the "circle leader's normal maximum spell level," it is quite plainly referring to a caster's "normal maximum spell level"

I don't understand what this is supposed to get you. "You can exceed the normal maximum spell level" does not imply "you cannot exceed 9th level". Indeed, "you can exceed the normal maximum spell level" would necessarily imply "you can exceed 9th level", as one normally does not get spell slots above 9th level.


The PHB says metamagic increases the level of the spell and circle magic says metamagic increases the level of the spell. It's fine to house rule that it isn't so.

"Metamagic increases the level of the spell" is something the PHB very explicit does not say. Except in the context of Heighten Spell. Would you like to alter your statement somehow so that it is not facially incorrect?

[Darg]

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. This quote clearly supports my argument and not yours: it says you can use ordinary metamagic up to 9th level. After that you have to use Circle Magic for the remaining 11 spell levels. It even shows in the example using heighten for 6 levels, just as I said in my previous post.

The argument is about whether circle magic by RAW definitively allows you to heighten your spell to 20th level. My example still has the 9th level maximum of the feat while also reaching the 20th level maximum showing that it's not superfluous even when heighten spell isn't allowed to reach 20th.


This doesn't support your position. If they "count as one additional spell level" and you can apply them up to 20, that is straightforwardly a "specific overrides general" argument by which you can Heighten to 20 via Circle Magic. It would get you to "can't apply both Heighten to 20 and Empower", but that still seems to be incompatible with your initial claim.

I don't understand what this is supposed to get you. "You can exceed the normal maximum spell level" does not imply "you cannot exceed 9th level". Indeed, "you can exceed the normal maximum spell level" would necessarily imply "you can exceed 9th level", as one normally does not get spell slots above 9th level.

"Metamagic increases the level of the spell" is something the PHB very explicit does not say. Except in the context of Heighten Spell. Would you like to alter your statement somehow so that it is not facially incorrect?

Your premise relies on metamagic not increasing the level of the spell. I quoted earlier it explicitly does in the PHB and in circle magic showing a continuity in terminology. I'll collect every instance:


Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person , for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats).

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

Each bonus level counts as one additional spell level required by the application of a metamagic feat to a spell.

There is no overriding factor here. Circle magic is simply establishing how the mechanic of using bonus levels to apply the feats to your prepared spells and setting a limit to how modified the spell can be. There is nothing in circle magic that says you can heighten a spell beyond 9th level. There is nothing that modifies the feat directly either.

[RandomPeasant]

Your premise relies on metamagic not increasing the level of the spell.

Yes, that is what the rules say. Specifically, they say it on page 88 of the PHB where a Silent charm person is described as being "still a 1st level spell". I mean, really, if the rules work the way you say they do, what is the point of Heighten Spell? If all metamagic increases the level of the spell it is applied to, why would I ever use a metamagic that increases that for no benefit to me?

[Darg]

Yes, that is what the rules say. Specifically, they say it on page 88 of the PHB where a Silent charm person is described as being "still a 1st level spell". I mean, really, if the rules work the way you say they do, what is the point of Heighten Spell? If all metamagic increases the level of the spell it is applied to, why would I ever use a metamagic that increases that for no benefit to me?

The quote actually says "(a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats)." The word "still" does not exist except as "stilled" in reference to still spell. So charm person, a 1st-level spell, is increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats being used. The point of heighten spell is that it alters the general rule. A metamagicked spell is prepared and cast as a higher level spell, but after it's cast it operates at it's original spell level. It does not get the increase to DC. Heighten spell makes it so that in every way the cast spell is a higher level.

I think the confusion is coming from the misunderstanding that heighten spell itself increases the actual level of the spell. Heighten spell only ever increases the effective level of the spell. Put another way, the level at which the effect is operating; allowing the effect to have an increased DC or penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability. The feat's description is perfectly apt: "You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is." It does not actually increase the level of the spell. As this is the case, increasing the level of a spell with metamagic in general applies to all metamagic, not just heighten spell.

[RandomPeasant]

The quote actually says "(a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats)."

No, it doesn't. The quote says: "Thus, if she prepares charm person as a silent spell, it takes up one of her 2nd-level spell slots. It is still only a 1st-level spell, so the DC for the Will save against it does not go up". So I misspoke when I said that it was talking about a stilled spell, but the text unambiguously and in no uncertain terms disagrees with your position. The general rule is that the level of a spell modified by a metamagic feat does not change, with Heighten Spell providing a more specific rule that overrides in its limited context.


It does not actually increase the level of the spell.

This does not help your case! If you look at the rules for spell DCs, they reference "level", not "effective level" (quote: "A spell’s level affects the DC for any save allowed against the effect."). If your argument is that Heighten Spell is increasing the "effective level" and directly modifying DCs, but that other metamagic increases "spell level", that still implies that the DC of an empowered fireball is increased by 2. You can't get "is a higher spell level" and also "DC doesn't go up", because DC is derived from spell level.

[Darg]

No, it doesn't. The quote says: "Thus, if she prepares charm person as a silent spell, it takes up one of her 2nd-level spell slots. It is still only a 1st-level spell, so the DC for the Will save against it does not go up". So I misspoke when I said that it was talking about a stilled spell, but the text unambiguously and in no uncertain terms disagrees with your position. The general rule is that the level of a spell modified by a metamagic feat does not change, with Heighten Spell providing a more specific rule that overrides in its limited context.

It is a 1st level spell. As I keep saying, the spell level is only increased for the purposes of preparation and casting: "Mialee cannot prepare a 2nd-level spell as a silent spell because she would have to prepare it as a 3rd-level spell, and she can’t use 3rd-level spell slots until she reaches 5th level." Charm person is and always will be a 1st level spell no matter the metamagic used.


This does not help your case! If you look at the rules for spell DCs, they reference "level", not "effective level" (quote: "A spell’s level affects the DC for any save allowed against the effect."). If your argument is that Heighten Spell is increasing the "effective level" and directly modifying DCs, but that other metamagic increases "spell level", that still implies that the DC of an empowered fireball is increased by 2. You can't get "is a higher spell level" and also "DC doesn't go up", because DC is derived from spell level.

It does help my case. Specific beats general. Heighten spell allows the modified spell to do something that is not generally allowed. If you'll notice the feat does not mention increasing the actual level of the spell. As I mentioned before, heighten spell even tells you that the spell isn't actually a higher level spell, only cast as one: "You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is." Normal metamagic don't operate at the level they are prepared and cast. Heighten simply allows the spell to operate at that level; in "effect" acting as a spell of that level.

I really want to know how you interpret all of the language in the PHB saying that metamagic increases the level of the spell. It's mentioned 3 times that it increases the level of the spell, 2 times directly mentioning how it is prepared and cast as a higher level spell, and 1 time how it is prepared as a higher level spell. In my perspective it is using these different ways of reference as virtually interchangeable when it comes to metamagic. As that is the case, the reference to spell level in circle magic in regards to metamagic is referring to this interchangeability. When we get down to the, "circle leader's normal maximum spell level," one would normally think the subject of the prepositional phrase would be the actual subject of the phrase. To put this one into perspective we can simply remove the prepositional phrase and it doesn't change the nature of the sentence:

"The circle leader may add the feats listed to a spell even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level."

If you'll notice, it changes nothing. You still get to add the feats (notice the plurality; highly doubtful that they wouldn't make a direct reference to heighten spell if they didn't mean that all the feats were in reference) even if the spell level changes. The prepositional phrase afterward then clarifies that it is 'past the circle leader's (the possessive noun) normal maximum spell level' where the raised level could go. As such the parenthetical is in reference to the circle leader, not heighten spell. Especially when you consider every parenthetical is in reference to the circle leader.

[RandomPeasant]

Your premise relies on metamagic not increasing the level of the spell.

Charm person is and always will be a 1st level spell no matter the metamagic used.

So, it would seem, does yours.


Specific beats general.

Which implies that Circle Magic's specific rule allowing you to apply metamagic up to 20 beats the general rule for Heighten Spell that says it can't go above 9. So what are we even talking about here? Why do I need to take any position at all on metamagic increasing the level of a spell?


I really want to know how you interpret all of the language in the PHB saying that metamagic increases the level of the spell.

I want to know how you interpret it, seeing as you conceded just two paragraphs ago that it doesn't do that. Your position cannot be that "Charm person is and will always be a 1st level spell" and that there is language that says "metamagic increases the level of the spell". Those statements directly contradict each other.


The prepositional phrase afterward then clarifies that it is 'past the circle leader's (the possessive noun) normal maximum spell level' where the raised level could go.

Even if we accept all that parsing, this still doesn't get you where you want to go. For a spell to be heightened to 20th level, it must necessarily be allowed to be heightened past the "normal maximum spell level" of the circle magic user, because people do not have a normal maximum spell level of 20th. So if I grant your entire argument, all you have done is prove that the ability includes language that allows it to do a thing it needs to do to work the way it does. I would certainly hope it includes that type of language!

[Darg]

Which implies that Circle Magic's specific rule allowing you to apply metamagic up to 20 beats the general rule for Heighten Spell that says it can't go above 9. So what are we even talking about here? Why do I need to take any position at all on metamagic increasing the level of a spell?

So we are just going to ignore that it's referencing all the feats, not just one?


I want to know how you interpret it, seeing as you conceded just two paragraphs ago that it doesn't do that. Your position cannot be that "Charm person is and will always be a 1st level spell" and that there is language that says "metamagic increases the level of the spell". Those statements directly contradict each other.

I've written it out pretty plainly, multiple times. Metamagic increases the level of the spell for the purposes of preparation and casting as the PHB says. Using the exact example in the book, a silent, stilled charm person is a 1st level spell prepared and cast as a 3rd level spell, as each metamagic increased it's level by 1 each. The PHB calls it increasing the level of the spell, why wouldn't any other book be expected to follow that syntax?


Even if we accept all that parsing, this still doesn't get you where you want to go. For a spell to be heightened to 20th level, it must necessarily be allowed to be heightened past the "normal maximum spell level" of the circle magic user, because people do not have a normal maximum spell level of 20th. So if I grant your entire argument, all you have done is prove that the ability includes language that allows it to do a thing it needs to do to work the way it does. I would certainly hope it includes that type of language!

Except it doesn't include the language that allows heighten to go beyond 9th level. One would normally require something more direct like the improved heighten spell feat that specifically says that you can go higher than 9th.

At this point we are getting nowhere. You aren't going to be convinced, nor am I convinced with your lack of any evidence or explanation. Happy trails.