[RESOLVED] Monk/Psionic Fist build and stats

[Arkhios]

Hello again, and sorry if this is becoming annoying, but I really do need some help with this, as I have a deadline to make a decision before next tuesday (May, 3rd) and I've been grappling this for the last two weeks! :smalleek:

We've come to the point of starting a new campaign once more, and we've rolled the scores, mine being 16,15,14,13,13,11

I've decided to make a human 'Monk-to-be-Psionic Fist', but I'm pondering the path I should take.

My first question is, if you had rolled attributes like these, and absolutely wanted to make a monk, how would you distribute the scores?
My initial thoughts have been to prioritize Strength and Wisdom, because Grapple requires strength, and while you're grappling you keep your Wisdom and class bonus to AC, and Wisdom is likewise important for Psionic Fist. But this leaves me with 14,13,13,11 to distribute to other scores; on the other hand, I'm not sure whether I should put 16 in Strength or Wisdom, and 15 in the other. I really am torn with this, so any outside opinions would be great!

My second question is, regarding the class level distribution, with minimal multiclassing, would you prefer to:
a) go full-on Psionic Fist (Monk 6/Psionic Fist 10)
b) get the most out of your Base Attack Bonus, with an even split (Monk 8/Psionic Fist 8)
c) maximize the number of attacks with Flurry of Blows and the Base Attack Bonus (Monk 12/Psionic Fist 4)
As you may have noticed, I haven't progressed any of these options above level 16, and that's because the campaign is unlikely to continue farther than that.

First question is the more important one, of course, but the latter weighs heavily on what feats I'm taking and at what point, and I wouldn't want to make a bad choice, because I can't retrain them afterwards.

As for feats, I have access to all the non-variant options found within Psionics section in SRD, as well as those in Player's Handbook and those from Monster Manual that I actually do qualify for as a monk.

The feats that I have already decided to take are Improved Grapple and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed), but the rest are more 'malleable'.
At first I thought I wanted to pursue Knock-Down (again), but having found an errata for Deities & Demigods, prior to being added into SRD, I've realized the feat isn't all that good as I initially thought. As per the 3.0 errata, Knock-Down does not trigger the free attack from Improved Trip, so that the following doesn't work as I thought it would: 'hit in melee -> deal 10+ damage -> trip the target -> attack the target for free when it's prone'

[DivineOnTheMind]

Are you limited to the SRD for everything? Even with limited sources, if you aren't using the Fractional Base Attack variant, I wouldn't take more than 6 Monk levels. If that. Get as much Psionic Fist as early as you can.

[pabelfly]

Monk is actually a class that's better the less you take of it.

If you want to combine psionics and Monk, I would consider Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X and get the Tashalatora feat . This progresses better Monk-related abilities than Psionic Fist does, including Flurry of Blows and unarmed damage.

If you really want to take the Psionic Fist class, I'd go Monk 3/Fighter 2/Psionic Fist X. Fighter 2 gives you two bonus feats you can use to up damage, and gets you into Psionic Fist a level earlier.

[Arkhios]

Are you limited to the SRD for everything? Even with limited sources, if you aren't using the Fractional Base Attack variant, I wouldn't take more than 6 Monk levels. If that. Get as much Psionic Fist as early as you can.

More or less, yes. We can't use rules under Unearthed Arcana, for example, and not everything under Psionics, either. We have a campaign related restricted access to Psionics, and full manifester classes are not allowed. Soulknife, and the prestige classes Psionic Fist and Pyrokineticist are the only exceptions as far as psionic classes go. The rationale is that psionics is extremely rare, and the psionics of these classes is fairly mild.


Monk is actually a class that's better the less you take of it.
:smallconfused: not sure what to make of this, but I feel different about it, I guess. Imho, the higher the unarmed damage is, the better. As a monk, at least, and especially if you're a grappler (as I intend my character to be)


If you want to combine psionics and Monk, I would consider Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X and get the Tashalatora feat. This progresses better Monk-related abilities than Psionic Fist does, including Flurry of Blows and unarmed damage.
Alas, Tashalatora feat is beyond my accessibility. Also, as I mentioned above, we can't use manifester base classes. If I had the option to dip into (or start as) Psychic Warrior, I would.


If you really want to take the Psionic Fist class, I'd go Monk 3/Fighter 2/Psionic Fist X. Fighter 2 gives you two bonus feats you can use to up damage, and gets you into Psionic Fist a level earlier.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Psionic Fist specifically requires 9 full ranks in Concentration, and there's no way that I know of that you can get to 9 ranks at (effective) character level 5. :smallconfused:

[pabelfly]

:smallconfused: not sure what to make of this, but I feel different about it, I guess. Imho, the higher the unarmed damage is, the better. As a monk, at least.

I want to like Monk - it has good flavour and interesting abilities - but they're not really a good class. The best Monk-based builds typically grab a few levels of Monk to pick up Monk abilities and some bonus feats and add psionics (Tashalatora) or spellcasting (Ascetic Mage). Alternatively, unarmed Swordsage works much better than Monk if you don't want to add spellcasting.


Alas, Tashalatora feat is beyond my accessibility, and we have a campaign restriction to full-psionics. If I had the option to dip into (or start as) Psychic Warrior, I would.

Not sure why Psionic Fist is in but Psychic Warrior is out, but fair enough.


Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Psionic Fist specifically requires 9 full ranks in Concentration, and there's no way that I know of that you can get to 9 ranks at (effective) character level 5. :smallconfused:

My mistake. I'd add in a level of Cleric and pick up the Travel Devotion feat. This would help you get full attacks off after moving, which your build seems to otherwise lack.

[Arkhios]

I want to like Monk - it has good flavour and interesting abilities - but they're not really a good class. The best Monk-based builds typically grab a few levels of Monk to pick up Monk abilities and some bonus feats and add psionics (Tashalatora) or spellcasting (Ascetic Mage). Alternatively, unarmed Swordsage works much better than Monk if you don't want to add spellcasting.
I mean, monk isn't that great on it's own, I admit. But purely for the flavour, and for the reason below, I really do like the concept as is, and do want to make the most out of it as a Monk/Psionic Fist, and wish to keep it at that class combination. The exact level split is up for discussion, however. For example, Monk 11+ has the benefit of not only having negated the flurry of blows penalty, but also having one more attack with FoB.


Not sure why Psionic Fist is in but Psychic Warrior is out, but fair enough.
Well, if you must know, (as you probably already knew) Psionic Fist is actually called 'Fist of Zuoken'. Zuoken is god of Physical and Mental Mastery from Greyhawk (kinda like Buddha). There is a god in the setting that is basically the equivalent of Zuoken/Buddha, so it makes sense to include Psionic Fist, formally known as "fist of that specific deity", in-setting.


My mistake. I'd add in a level of Cleric and pick up the Travel Devotion feat. This would help you get full attacks off after moving, which your build seems to otherwise lack.
I don't mean to sound bitter, but I really don't have access to everything that's out there in the white room theorycrafting. Travel Devotion feat is definitely not in the SRD, that's for sure.

Is it really too much to ask to consider the limitations I have, and work within that framework? I'm also not in mood for being trolled at, so please, don't.

[pabelfly]

I mean, monk isn't that great on it's own, I admit. But purely for the flavour, and for the reason below, I really do like the concept as is, and do want to make the most out of it as a Monk/Psionic Fist, and wish to keep it at that class combination. The exact level split is up for discussion, however. For example, Monk 11+ has the benefit of not only having negated the flurry of blows penalty, but also having one more attack with FoB.


Well, if you must know, Psionic Fist is actually called 'Fist of Zuoken'. Zuoken is god of Physical and Mental Mastery from Greyhawk (kinda like Buddha). There is a god in the setting that is basically the equivalent of Zuoken/Buddha, so it makes sense to include Psionic Fist, formally known as "fist of that specific deity", in-setting.


I don't mean to sound bitter, but I really don't have access to everything that's out there in the white room theorycrafting. Travel Devotion feat is definitely not in the SRD, that's for sure.

Is it really too much to ask to consider the limitations I have, and work within that framework? I'm also not in mood for being trolled at, so please, don't.

Okay. My suggestion if you want to do a Monk/Fist of Zuoken build only without any extra dips is to maximize your levels of Psionic Fist so you can get the most of your psionic abilities and power points a day.

Good luck with your build.

[ciopo]

I would enter psionic fist as soon as possible and at the very least not go back to monk levels until I had a manisfeter level high enough to double augment expansion for both the 10min/level duration and the 2 size category increase augmentation. That makes first 14 levels be monk 5/psionic fist 9. Is the feat practiced manifester on the table? It doesn't give you more power known or power point from class level, but it does give a bit of power point from the "bonus power points from high manifesting ability score"

Since you intend to grapple, that double size increase is your big ticket, so prioritizing psionic fist makes sense to me. Earliest you can have both the duration and the bigger size increase is manifester level 9, unless you're allowed to take overchannel

[Arkhios]

unless you're allowed to take overchannel

Funny you should mention it that way, it's quite probable that I'm not allowed to take overchannel (even though it is in SRD) :smallbiggrin: :smallredface:

I made a "mistake" in a previous campaign when I had a cerebremancer with Overchannel and the 2nd level energy powers (energy missile/energy stun) that scale their save DC outright ridiculously based on each additional power point spent... let's just say, it didn't end well for our access to psionics in future campaigns (DM decided then that we wouldn't be allowed to use psionics at all, but it seems their opinion changed a little, at least, for this campaign).

[ciopo]

Well, unlike practiced manifester, overchannel is "core", insofar you can find it right there in the psionic srd.

Have you decided on a race already? With that array, I'd go half orc 18 13 14 11 15 9, first ASI to WIS and you got plenty of time to decide what to do with the later ASIs.

Without either overchannel or practiced manifester, it will be quite late that you'll have expansion double augmented I don't think there is anything outside of core/srd that allows you to have a higher manifester level, there's only overchannel.

Oh, maybe that "magic gifted" trait, but for psionic disciplines? The one that's +1 caster level in the chisen spell school but -1 caster level in all others? Same thinm but applied to psionics, so +1 to psychometabolism but -1 to all other disciplines. I'm not 100% suee it's UA or not http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm

I would go monk 4/fighter 2 or monk 4/ranger 2 to qualify. Realistically you only really lose/delay 1AC bonus. The 5th level flurry "improvement" is basically regained by the extra BAB point, figther gives you more feats to play with and ranger allows you to use divine wands/scrolls with very easy to meet caster level checks. Plus you can TWF+flurry if you so wanted.
Ranger specifically means "easy" access to magic fang / greater magic fang wand. It's somewhat cheaper than amulet of mighty fist if you go for CL 8 or CL 12 wands

[ShurikVch]

Maybe it's not exactly what OP asked, but Dragon #308 has article: "Psychic Boxing: Psions of the Orient"

Not all stuff in it was equally useful, but still - check it...

It got six "Paths of Enlightenment" for Psions, one for each:
Infinite Harmony Mastery (Seer) - it was intended to improve results of Inkling power (like psionic Augury, but 0th-level, and chance for meaningful reply was in 50%; IHM added +1% per Psion level)
One Mind with Many Voices Mastery (Telepath) - 1/day Misdirection PLA, CL = Psion level
The Return to Center Mastery (Nomad) - your Psychoportation powers can carry +50% additional weight of objects or willing creatures
The Sign of One Mastery (Shaper) - +2 on saves to disbelieve illusions
The Thousand Pins and Needles Mastery (Kineticist) - resistance 5 to fire, electricity, or sonic (your choice)
United Opposing Forces Mastery (Egoist) - 1/day, use your Will save instead your Fort or Ref save
Also, there was six "Martial Arts Styles" for Psychic Warriors:
Commanding Voice Mastery - +2 insight bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks
Iron Robe Mastery - +1 natural AC
No Wasted Motion Mastery - in your turn, you can make one additional Move Action; usable your Wis bonus times per day
Palm Power Mastery - you can, for one round, get ki strike which overcomes DR/magic, DR/adamantine, and DR/alignment (use your alignment); usable your Con bonus times per day
Responsive Body Mastery - +3 competence bonus on Disguise, Escape Artist, and stabilize self checks
Shadow's Embrace Mastery - while hiding, you can move at you full speed without the usual -5 on check, and Run or Charge with just -10 penalty (instead of the usual -20)

[DivineOnTheMind]

With the limitations we're talking about (SRD-only, no Fractional BA, no manifesting base classes), we're gunning for level 9 to get Hustle or Psionic Lion's charge to pull the build together. I think that target is more important than any other aspect of the build.

What I had in mind with the earlier comment was that Monk 3/Fighter 2/Sanctified Mind 1 might have been a better entry into Psionic Fist, and might help preserve some BA if we were only banning Fractional BA. But with the bans described, I think Monk 6 is just the best thing we have on the table, which sounds pretty painful. If you have to dump a stat between Str/Dex/Con/Wis, try to make it Dex, and scrounge every AC boost you can gather. Especially Mage Armor.

If Linked Power and Practiced Manifester are off the table, the full-bore Expansion+Grip of Iron grapple strategy is going to be tougher to pull together early, but you can still probably make it happen by level 10 or so. The problem is that's pretty late for grapple to be relevant. Hopefully the DM throws some bones.

On the off-chance Magic Item Compendium is available, with Magic-Psionics transparency, I really like the Circlet of Rapid Casting for this kind of melee psychic warrior build. It's generally really good with augmented powers, but you seem to have the deck stacked against you somewhat. If MIC's not, and if the SRD Torc of Power Preservation is the one that's available, it's a pretty powerful item whenever you can afford it.

[Troacctid]

Hello again, and sorry if this is becoming annoying, but I really do need some help with this, as I have a deadline to make a decision before next tuesday (May, 3rd) and I've been grappling this for the last two weeks! :smalleek:

We've come to the point of starting a new campaign once more, and we've rolled the scores, mine being 16,15,14,13,13,11

I've decided to make a human 'Monk-to-be-Psionic Fist', but I'm pondering the path I should take.

My first question is, if you had rolled attributes like these, and absolutely wanted to make a monk, how would you distribute the scores?
My initial thoughts have been to prioritize Strength and Wisdom, because Grapple requires strength, and while you're grappling you keep your Wisdom and class bonus to AC, and Wisdom is likewise important for Psionic Fist. But this leaves me with 14,13,13,11 to distribute to other scores; on the other hand, I'm not sure whether I should put 16 in Strength or Wisdom, and 15 in the other. I really am torn with this, so any outside opinions would be great!

My second question is, regarding the class level distribution, with minimal multiclassing, would you prefer to:
a) go full-on Psionic Fist (Monk 6/Psionic Fist 10)
b) get the most out of your Base Attack Bonus, with an even split (Monk 8/Psionic Fist 8)
c) maximize the number of attacks with Flurry of Blows and the Base Attack Bonus (Monk 12/Psionic Fist 4)
As you may have noticed, I haven't progressed any of these options above level 16, and that's because the campaign is unlikely to continue farther than that.

First question is the more important one, of course, but the latter weighs heavily on what feats I'm taking and at what point, and I wouldn't want to make a bad choice, because I can't retrain them afterwards.

As for feats, I have access to all the non-variant options found within Psionics section in SRD, as well as those in Player's Handbook and those from Monster Manual that I actually do qualify for as a monk.

The feats that I have already decided to take are Improved Grapple and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed), but the rest are more 'malleable'.
At first I thought I wanted to pursue Knock-Down (again), but having found an errata for Deities & Demigods, prior to being added into SRD, I've realized the feat isn't all that good as I initially thought. As per the 3.0 errata, Knock-Down does not trigger the free attack from Improved Trip, so that the following doesn't work as I thought it would: 'hit in melee -> deal 10+ damage -> trip the target -> attack the target for free when it's prone'

1. I would go Strength > Wisdom > Dexterity > Constitution > Intelligence > Charisma, and put ability increases for leveling up into Wisdom. Since you're starting at a lower level, it's better to have a strong early game.
2. Without access to non-SRD material, taking more than 6 levels of monk is extremely unattractive, as the class features drop off dramatically in quality after the third bonus feat. On the other hand, I tend to think psionic fist is pretty good. I would go for the clean breakpoint: Monk 6/Psionic Fist 10.
3. For feats, I tend to think Knock-Down is still strong even with the errata. The PHB feats I'd consider are Blind-Fight, Deflect Arrows, Improved Trip, and Leadership. From XPH, the feats I like are Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Overchannel, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Fist/Weapon, and Improved Psionic Fist/Weapon. If other SRD feats are allowed, then Blindsight (5-Ft. Radius), Knock-Down, and Stench of the Dead are also attractive. If you find you still have a spare feat slot that you don't know what to do with, consider switching to dwarf instead of human.

[noce]

As for feats, I have access to all the non-variant options found within Psionics section in SRD, as well as those in Player's Handbook and those from Monster Manual that I actually do qualify for as a monk.


Then take Ability Focus (stunning fist), if I remember correctly it's in the monster manual.
In a core-only campaign, stunning fist is quite useful, especially in a build that values wisdom, like yours.
As for the class split, go monk 6.

[Rynjin]

:smallconfused: not sure what to make of this, but I feel different about it, I guess. Imho, the higher the unarmed damage is, the better. As a monk, at least, and especially if you're a grappler (as I intend my character to be)

Damage dice, largely, is irrelevant. The biggest thing that determines your damage output are static modifiers. Str, enhancement bonus, Weapon Training, other abilities that add flat damage.

Likewise as a good rule of thumb, +3 damage is worth +1 attack bonus; that's how much more your attack rolls are worth over damage.

A Monk 12 has 2d6 damage unarmed strikes. Golly! Wow! That's so much bigger than 1d6!

That's 3 damage, on average.

A Monk 2/Fighter 10 has 1d6 damage unarmed strikes. They also have an additional +2 attack bonus, and the ability to take Weapon Specialization for +2 damage. They also have an additional 10 HP. And many, many more Feats.

It is literally superior in every single way.

I understand the struggle. I was "the Monk guy" for many years in Pathfinder. I have played every combination of Monk and Monk-like class in that game.

Monks are infinitely better in Pathfinder than they are in 3.5. Like, infinitely. It is difficult to express the vast gulf in effectiveness and power between Pathfinder's Monk and 3.5's Monk.

They are still the second worst class in that game (after the core Rogue). They are so bad that, like the Core Rogue, a second, superior version of the class was printed in a later book that largely obsoletes the Core monk (known as the Unchained Monk).

Everything that makes a Monk viable in 3.5 is obtained by level 2. Level 1, honestly, but most find Evasion, +1 to all saves, and the Bonus Feat worth the second level if you're gonna be stuck with a 3/4 BaB chassis anyway. It really, truly, no exaggeration is a class that is "better the less you take of it". 3.5 Monk doesn't even have the allure of the level 4 acquisition of a Ki Pool to tempt people to stay in it that long.

[Arkhios]

A Monk 2/Fighter 10 has 1d6 damage unarmed strikes. They also have an additional +2 attack bonus, and the ability to take Weapon Specialization for +2 damage. They also have an additional 10 HP. And many, many more Feats.

It is literally superior in every single way.
Maybe. But that's neither here nor there. I have stated my intentions, and wishes for the topic, and digression is not what I was asking.


I understand the struggle. I was "the Monk guy" for many years in Pathfinder. I have played every combination of Monk and Monk-like class in that game.

Monks are infinitely better in Pathfinder than they are in 3.5. Like, infinitely. It is difficult to express the vast gulf in effectiveness and power between Pathfinder's Monk and 3.5's Monk.

They are still the second worst class in that game (after the core Rogue). They are so bad that, like the Core Rogue, a second, superior version of the class was printed in a later book that largely obsoletes the Core monk (known as the Unchained Monk).

Everything that makes a Monk viable in 3.5 is obtained by level 2. Level 1, honestly, but most find Evasion, +1 to all saves, and the Bonus Feat worth the second level if you're gonna be stuck with a 3/4 BaB chassis anyway. It really, truly, no exaggeration is a class that is "better the less you take of it". 3.5 Monk doesn't even have the allure of the level 4 acquisition of a Ki Pool to tempt people to stay in it that long.
I'm more than familiar with Pathfinder, having played first edition for over 10 years on a weekly basis, on average. I'm aware that monks (especially the unchained version) are much better in Pathfinder, but that's also irrelevant to the topic. Heck, one of my favorite characters both mechanically and conceptually in Pathfinder Society was a Martial Artist monk. I know what they are capable of.
However, I don't have the power to veto a change of the game system from 3.5 to Pathfinder. We're playing with 3.5, and that's it. As it is, I like 3.5 just as much as I do like Pathfinder, so I don't have an issue with any of this.

All I was asking was an opinion on how to distribute my rolls and the level split for the classes. I didn't ask what would be better than this particular class combination. I'm sorry if I'm being blunt, but you should look into the mirror and ask yourself why would I stoop to answer this way.

[Rynjin]

Why bother asking for advice if you don't want it? You've clearly made up your mind on exactly what you want to do and how you want to do it anyway, so don't bother wasting people's time.

I'm just pointing out that your priorities are...skewed. Make of that what you will. My advice didn't even contradict your stated goals. It merely confirmed what another poster suggested: the fewer Monk levels, the better. Play the Monk/Psionic Fist by all means, but lean heavily toward the latter as much as possible.

Again, try not to waste people's time with "advice" threads where you're just going to ignore and discard all of said advice anyway. You clearly know better what you want, so do it without bothering other people with it.

[Arkhios]

Why bother asking for advice if you don't want it? You've clearly made up your mind on exactly what you want to do and how you want to do it anyway, so don't bother wasting people's time.

I'm just pointing out that your priorities are...skewed. Make of that what you will. My advice didn't even contradict your stated goals. It merely confirmed what another poster suggested: the fewer Monk levels, the better. Play the Monk/Psionic Fist by all means, but lean heavily toward the latter as much as possible.

I asked advice on how to distribute the rolls and the level split. If you had an opinion on that, then why not just say it right away, instead of going on circles about how this or that alternative build is better than pure monk/psionic fist? I didn't ask for those alternatives. I merely requested help on deciding two very simple things: ability score distribution and level split between one base class and one prestige class. A simple answer for a simple question would've sufficed.

[Arkhios]

This matter is resolved, and as far I'm concerned, case closed. Thanks to those who gave me food for thought, as I have managed to make up my mind (see my signature below if you're interested in the results). Also, my sincere apologies to those who I may have upset by being headstrong and upfront. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my intentions, or maybe there's something else that continues to elude me, but I really am sorry.