About Golem Crystal

[Post-human]

Some questions....

1- why Crystal feels continuous pain as a golem?

2- but she goes "ouch" when wounded by adamantium... so the pain she feels is less intense than a stab or slash?

3- why she's ready to settle for the brief moments of respite that killing gives to her? A permanent solution seems much better. Even idiots like Crystal understand pain!

[Fyraltari]

Some questions....

1- why Crystal feels continuous pain as a golem?
You'd have to ask a professional golem-maker for that one, chief.


2- but she goes "ouch" when wounded by adamantium... so the pain she feels is less intense than a stab or slash?
You know how, when you have a cut or a burn somewhere, it hurts continuously but of you or someone else touches it it hurts more?


3- why she's ready to settle for the brief moments of respite that killing gives to her? A permanent solution seems much better. Even idiots like Crystal understand pain!
Because she's lazy, short-sighted and cruel and would rather settle on the easy, short-term solution rather than the difficult one even if it doesn't work as well. People don't always make the wisest decisions, you know.

[InvisibleBison]

3- why she's ready to settle for the brief moments of respite that killing gives to her? A permanent solution seems much better. Even idiots like Crystal understand pain!

Crystal thought killing people to reduce her pain was a permanent solution to her problem.

[enq]

1- why Crystal feels continuous pain as a golem?
I'm guessing that's something Bozzok wanted, to keep her motivated. As long as she believed Haley was to blame for it, she'd hunt her indiscriminately.

[yokyok]

I had assumed that since Bozzok chose to recreate Crystal with her consciousness and experience intact, that included the sensations and emotions she felt at the moment of her death, i.e. pain and hate.

[Post-human]

People don't always make the wisest decisions, you know.

About 99,99% of situations and issues, yes, you're absolutely right.

But pain - immediate and atrocious physical pain - is different.

[Fyraltari]

About 99,99% of situations and issues, yes, you're absolutely right.

But pain - immediate and atrocious physical pain - is different.

Crystal is in pain right now, she has a way to alleviate that temporarily. Comes in Haley to tell her that instead she should not do that and go out looking for a comletely hypothetical fix she hasn't even the first clue where to look for.
Is it so unbeliveable that Crystal wouldn't take that advice?

[JonahFalcon]

Crystal felt pain because Bozzok told Grubwiggler to give her self-awareness. Normal golems might feel pain, but it wouldn't register in their brain. Nor would they vocalize it even if it did.

[Precure]

I think she was talking about emotional pain, similar to Haley's "life is pain" phase.

[Darth Paul]

I agree with JonahFalcon, normally a golem, as a creature with no self-awareness as we see it, wouldn't feel anything. Crystal feels the pain of being a construct with her human consciousness crammed inside it. She's a conscious machine.

She's able to alleviate the physical and emotional pain temporarily by killing people, it gives her a distraction from her physical state the way someone with an illness or injury can distract themselves with music or reading or playing an engrossing game; the underlying pain is still there, but it's on "mute" for a time.

But Crystal hasn't the imagination or intellect to get engrossed in something else; she doesn't appreciate beauty or the things that give you or me simple pleasure (and I hazard to say, didn't when she was alive). Her only pleasure is associated with killing; just as when she was alive. And she's not interested in learning different. Killing is what works for her, it distracts her from her pain, so she intends to go on doing it as long as she's "alive".

[JonahFalcon]

I always enjoyed that chat between Haley and Crystal as they're walking to Crystal's eventual doom.

Also, killing off Bozzok and Crystal? Pruning away the subplots. I think Rich realized both characters were narrative dead ends.

[brian 333]

I always enjoyed that chat between Haley and Crystal as they're walking to Crystal's eventual doom.

Also, killing off Bozzok and Crystal? Pruning away the subplots. I think Rich realized both characters were narrative dead ends.

I think he wrote them as dead ends. They were crucial to Haley's story arc, but once done they were meaningless. He used them as a distraction to keep the team separated while Durkula and Roy went to the temple. Other than Haley's monologue about growing up and putting her character arc behind her there was no other benefit to keeping them in the story.

[Fyraltari]

I always enjoyed that chat between Haley and Crystal as they're walking to Crystal's eventual doom.

Also, killing off Bozzok and Crystal? Pruning away the subplots. I think Rich realized both characters were narrative dead ends.

I think The Giant always planned on killing them that way. It's a nice conclusion of Haley's character arc, demonstrating her growth by rising above her ennemies.

[Synesthesy]

I just think that also the Monster of Frankeinstein feel something like that, it's a problem when you are a creature with a worse then death fate created with the sole purpose of serving someone else will, and that was created by some kind of surgeon without a licence or even grades.

[Peelee]

I think The Giant always planned on killing them that way. It's a nice conclusion of Haley's character arc, demonstrating her growth by rising above her ennemies.

Aye. Plus the foreshadowing of lightning powering up flesh golems when in Grubbwiggler's castle coming back around with the gnomes.

[Fyraltari]

I just think that also the Monster of Frankeinstein feel something like that, it's a problem when you are a creature with a worse then death fate created with the sole purpose of serving someone else will, and that was created by some kind of surgeon without a licence or even grades.
I'm not sure what version you're thinking of? As far as I am aware, the original, book version, Victor Frankenstein is the only one who never got his MD, but in the book, the Creature was not in constant pain (unless you count emotional pain from a neglectful father and an unaccepting society) and was not created as a servant.

Aye. Plus the foreshadowing of lightning powering up flesh golems when in Grubbwiggler's castle coming back around with the gnomes.

See, that one I don't think was planned in advance. It did not have any effect on the story besides giving Crystal a temporary upper hand in the fight, and The Giant is on the record saying that fight scenes are mostly improvised.

[Metastachydium]

I think The Giant always planned on killing them that way.

I don't know. I feel like Bozzok's got a little bit derailed there. He's always been a horrible rectal orifice who doesn't give a damn about the wellbeing of his underlings and absolutely deserved the exact kind of comeuppance he got in the end, but he was a rational actor with passable tactical insight in DStP. In UD, he came through more like an incompetent, giggling moron.


It's a nice conclusion of Haley's character arc, demonstrating her growth by rising above her ennemies.

That I'll readily get behind, on the other hand.

[Peelee]

See, that one I don't think was planned in advance. It did not have any effect on the story besides giving Crystal a temporary upper hand in the fight, and The Giant is on the record saying that fight scenes are mostly improvised.

It didn't have any effect in Grubbwiggler's other than to establish that A.) lightning doesn't hurt most golems, and 2.) lightning makes flesh golems move faster.

For Crystal, it (and the boots of speed) worked to separate her and Haley from any other potential allies (eg Bandana) so that Haley could deal with her all by herself.

I'm not saying the whole fight was planned out, but it's likely that he had Celia attack with lightning earlier so he didn't need to bother explaining later and could easily separate Haley and Crystal from everyone else whenever he wanted.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know. I feel like Bozzok's got a little bit derailed there. He's always been a horrible rectal orifice who doesn't give a damn about the wellbeing of his underlings and absolutely deserved the exact kind of comeuppance he got in the end, but he was a rational actor with passable tactical insight in DStP. In UD, he came through more like an incompetent, giggling moron.
The difference being that in DSTP, he was in control for most of his appearance, and when he really started losing, he got frozen and couldn't react to anything. Also, at the time, Haley was just a rogue (heh) element of his organisation, nothing to really fret about. In UD, he's been humiliated by Starshine and has had a couple week to stew in that. He lost control of the situation when Crystal, his life-long toadie turned against him, and like every petty tyrant, every bully, he doesn't really know how to react when he's not in control, especially if that loss of control is due to someone he already feels threatened by. So he lashes out, because violence (physical yes, but verbal too, especially when Crystal is involved) is how he has always solved his problems. It's always worked before, it's going to work this time too, right? Crystal does what she's told once you can get it through her thick skull.
Sure, he's hurt her, but that's Crystal, she's not a threat, she's a tool, in every sense of the word, a weapon he points at people to make them go away, she doesn't really matter, she doesn't make choices.

There's a bit of a recurring motif of evil characters being unable or unwilling to self-reflect, to learn or to grow. They end up falling back to the same old tricks despite it being very obvious it's not going to help this time. Nale keeps rubbing his alledged superiority in Tarquin's face despite being half-dead and alone, Hel refuses to give up on her plan, Kubota is still plotting to take over a city that no longer even exists, Durkon* doesn't even get the concept of personal growth, Tarquin cannot accept reality not following his script, and Redcloak... well, just Redcloak.

[Mariele]

3- why she's ready to settle for the brief moments of respite that killing gives to her? A permanent solution seems much better. Even idiots like Crystal understand pain!

People aren't exactly at their most thoughtful and patient when they're in pain/distress. They tend to opt for whatever is fastest and easiest.

[lyira]

People aren't exactly at their most thoughtful and patient when they're in pain/distress. They tend to opt for whatever is fastest and easiest.
that 100% percent true, but there is no a such a way to get out of it easily...........

[Fyraltari]

I'm not saying the whole fight was planned out, but it's likely that he had Celia attack with lightning earlier so he didn't need to bother explaining later and could easily separate Haley and Crystal from everyone else whenever he wanted.

Yeah, I don't think we have any way of telling "I better establish this now so I can use it when I need it in a few years." apart from "Hey, this thing I established a few years ago happen to do what I need right now, let's use it."

I will say that I find planning this level of details this in advance unlikely, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[brian 333]

Yeah, I don't think we have any way of telling "I better establish this now so I can use it when I need it in a few years." apart from "Hey, this thing I established a few years ago happen to do what I need right now, let's use it."

I will say that I find planning this level of details this in advance unlikely, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.

On the other hand, I find it very likely. Somewhere around the halfway point in Dorukon's Dungeon, The Author envisioned Durkon's story arc. Perhaps not yet fully realized, he knew that at some point Durkula had to get to the Godsmoot. Before Azure City fell, we knew Durkon would return to his homeland after his death. Haley's arc had yet to begin.

With all of that planning literally years before the arc, I find it difficult to believe that the story is not complete in rough draft. In fact, aside from occasional tweaks, I'm betting the whole story was storyboarded sometime between DCF and Paladin Blues.

While I am virtually certain that The Author updates and organizes as he goes, I think he's had ample time to see future plot points and tweak the story to for cast them.

While any specific detail can be a last minute thing, as the lightning certainly can, it could also have been planned years before the comic.

I would also like to point out that this was around the time that the secondary print materials were coming out. The Author had enough free time to do a half-dozen comic books and keep this one going as well. I'm thinking it was because he was as finished as the main story could get, but he had a lot of unused ideas that grew out of the main story, and he could put those to print without waiting for the next update.

[Ruck]

I think he wrote them as dead ends. They were crucial to Haley's story arc, but once done they were meaningless. He used them as a distraction to keep the team separated while Durkula and Roy went to the temple. Other than Haley's monologue about growing up and putting her character arc behind her there was no other benefit to keeping them in the story.


I think The Giant always planned on killing them that way. It's a nice conclusion of Haley's character arc, demonstrating her growth by rising above her ennemies.


There's a bit of a recurring motif of evil characters being unable or unwilling to self-reflect, to learn or to grow. They end up falling back to the same old tricks despite it being very obvious it's not going to help this time. Nale keeps rubbing his alledged superiority in Tarquin's face despite being half-dead and alone, Hel refuses to give up on her plan, Kubota is still plotting to take over a city that no longer even exists, Durkon* doesn't even get the concept of personal growth, Tarquin cannot accept reality not following his script, and Redcloak... well, just Redcloak.

And to tie it altogether, I think as much as anything-- to the point I might be unconsciously ripping off the Giant's commentary-- that the resolution to this arc also shows that Haley has simply outgrown Bozzok and Crystal. They're still trying to rehash the same "petty intrigues" and banal feuds of the Thieves Guild, and she's just on to bigger, more important things in both her personal and professional life.

[Kish]

but he was a rational actor with passable tactical insight in DStP.
He was nothing of the sort. The loyalty he had never shown his guild members, and the result of same, was explicitly called out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0618.html) by Haley. If you count bonus strips, he was also willing to sabotage a truce which had just barely kept him alive because he wanted revenge on Haley.

[drazen]

I think he wrote them as dead ends. They were crucial to Haley's story arc, but once done they were meaningless. He used them as a distraction to keep the team separated while Durkula and Roy went to the temple. Other than Haley's monologue about growing up and putting her character arc behind her there was no other benefit to keeping them in the story.

They may not have been needed down the line, but there were two callbacks: one subtle, one explicit. One was when Durkon memory-spammed Durkula with all his memories and emotions (good and bad, ALL the feelings at once), effectively making the vampire spirit into a copy of himself. Later, Belkar tries to convince Gontor of this, but fails miserably (probably because he doesn't understand, but also because Durkon had a fairly unique situation that could be used to trick the vampire spirit), and the nightcrawler subsequently echoes Grubwiggler's comment that "feelings are tricky, you can't separate the ones you want from the ones you don't."

[Kish]

I think "narrative dead ends" phrasing carries an implicit assumption that OotS is something it's not: a soap opera-style story which is supposed to continue ramblingly forever. As long as it's had a plot it's had a planned end. Roy, Xykon, and literally every other character in the comic is a "narrative dead end" in the sense that every panel after the one that introduced them has taken them one panel closer to the end of their story and Rich not writing them anymore.

[JonahFalcon]

I think "narrative dead ends" phrasing carries an implicit assumption that OotS is something it's not: a soap opera-style story which is supposed to continue ramblingly forever. As long as it's had a plot it's had a planned end. Roy, Xykon, and literally every other character in the comic is a "narrative dead end" in the sense that every panel after the one that introduced them has taken them one panel closer to the end of their story and Rich not writing them anymore.

All of the minor character antagonists have been removed one by one.

[Quizatzhaderac]

1- why Crystal feels continuous pain as a golem?An animal experiences pain when it's nervous system detects it is not in a state to continue healthy functioning.

Crystal, being a corpse, is very far from being in a state of healthy functioning. Her nervous system isn't designed to check if she's okay to continue functioning as a golem, but as an animal. Her normally functioning nervous system is going to consider a great many things to be wrong.

That's not to say everything is as wrong as possible. When she started the altercation, she wasn't too hot, under physical pressure, and her parts were mostly attached correctly. These things changed during the fight, which is how she was able to be in more pain. Moreover these involved different kinds of pain, which the brain reacts to differently, and more immediately.

[Fyraltari]

An animal experiences pain when it's nervous system detects it is not in a state to continue healthy functioning.

Crystal, being a corpse, is very far from being in a state of healthy functioning. Her nervous system isn't designed to check if she's okay to continue functioning as a golem, but as an animal. Her normally functioning nervous system is going to consider a great many things to be wrong.

If that were the case, every undead like Xykon, Durkon* or Malack should also be in constant pain.

[Peelee]

If that were the case, every undead like Xykon, Durkon* or Malack should also be in constant pain.

Maybe they were, and just weren't complainers.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe they were, and just weren't complainers.

I've got to say, Xykon's pure, stoic discipline makes this very likely.

[Quizatzhaderac]

If that were the case, every undead like Xykon, Durkon* or Malack should also be in constant pain.Grubwiggler didn't know what he was doing. He said himself that he wasn't sure of the implications of preserving the mind while making a golem before he got to see it in action. Specifically he persevered her sense of physical pain while the designers of all kinds undead removed or dramatically altered it.

Xykon has been nonchalant about being decapitated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html), so I think it's safe to say he doesn't have a normal sense of pain. He also lost his sense of taste/smell. The things that have caused him pain all seem to be magical stuff the would hurt a ghost.

An OotS vampire is, presumably, a creature designed by the gods in the first place. Being as the gods could design human/dwarf/lizardfolk brains, they could design vampirism to appropriately change the nervous system as well. And there probably would have to be other changes so the vampire would hunger for blood rather than food.

Outside of OotS, vampires tend to be physically perfect, with breathing lungs, pumping blood, and overactive sex organs. So there wouldn't typically be anything (physically) wrong to feel.

[Kish]

All of the minor character antagonists have been removed one by one.
1) Are you calling Haley a minor character? Or does this mean "antagonist who is a minor character," and if it does, does that have a definition distinct from "antagonist who isn't still manifestly active in the comic as of strip #1256," which would make this assertion a tautology?
2) If "one by one" is significant in some way, I can think of multiple examples of antagonists leaving the story together. Bozzok, Crystal, and Grubwiggler; Sam and her father.

I don't know that I disagree with you about the particulars here, but if I don't you have what strikes me as an oddly negative way of phrasing "because Rich is a competent writer, all the story arcs are being drawn to ends as the overall end of the comic approaches."

[KorvinStarmast]

1) Are you calling Haley a minor character?
Hard to see how you arrived at that strange question.
Your point 2 is far more coherent.

[Ruck]

1) Are you calling Haley a minor character? Or does this mean "antagonist who is a minor character," and if it does, does that have a definition distinct from "antagonist who isn't still manifestly active in the comic as of strip #1256," which would make this assertion a tautology?

I assume it means the second one, but I can't answer that question.


I don't know that I disagree with you about the particulars here, but if I don't you have what strikes me as an oddly negative way of phrasing "because Rich is a competent writer, all the story arcs are being drawn to ends as the overall end of the comic approaches."

Yeah.

[Ionathus]

I'm a little confused by the idea that "lightning charges up golems" was some sort of Chekhov's Gun that Rich planned during DStP so that he could hearken back to it during the Golem Crystal fight in Tinkertown. Isn't that just a well-known feature of D&D flesh golems?

If you have a scene with a flesh golem, it makes sense to use the one special feature they have, to make the scene as dynamic as possible. Durkon using Turn Undead while fighting a ghoul is not a Chekhov's Gun for when Durkon will eventually use Turn Undead against Malack. They're just both undead so it's the thing you'd do.

As for the discussion of Crystal and Bozzok being "narrative dead ends," The Giant discusses this in the Tinkertown section of the UD book commentary. He said that the reason for bringing them back was to (A) have an interesting fight early on in the book, and (B) show how much Haley has grown by comparison. She's outgrown her old nemeses, both physically and, more importantly, emotionally.

[hamishspence]

I'm a little confused by the idea that "lightning charges up golems" was some sort of Chekhov's Gun that Rich planned during DStP so that he could hearken back to it during the Golem Crystal fight in Tinkertown. Isn't that just a well-known feature of D&D flesh golems?


It is - yes - but it's not quite as powerful as on Crystal.

On a normal Flesh Golem it heals them, and breaks any "slow" effect (fire and cold cause regular flesh golems to slow down - so electricity would remove this penalty).

On Crystal, what it appears to do is speed her up:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0978.html

the multiple images, make me think she isn't just travelling at "normal speed" - she's Hasted.

[Grey Watcher]

3- why she's ready to settle for the brief moments of respite that killing gives to her? A permanent solution seems much better. Even idiots like Crystal understand pain!

As an analogy, imagine you've been exposed to poison ivy. You know full well that scratching the rash isn't going to really help. Whatever relief you do get fades as soon as you stop. And depending on how hard you scratch, it might even make things worse by damaging your skin. The best thing to do is ignore it until you can find some kind of ointment that will actually help deal with the chemical irritant causing the problem. But the urge to scratch is really, [I]really[/] strong, so almost anyone is going to give in and scratch at least some of the time.

[Fyraltari]

I'm a little confused by the idea that "lightning charges up golems" was some sort of Chekhov's Gun that Rich planned during DStP so that he could hearken back to it during the Golem Crystal fight in Tinkertown. Isn't that just a well-known feature of D&D flesh golems?

Also, Frankenstein monsters being powered by lightning strikes is kind of wildly accepted because of the famous movie. I don't know jack about D&D and didn't recall it happening back in Greysky before reading this thread, but when I first read the scene where Crystal becomes stronger after being zapped, I thought that made sense.

[Peelee]

I'm a little confused by the idea that "lightning charges up golems" was some sort of Chekhov's Gun that Rich planned during DStP so that he could hearken back to it during the Golem Crystal fight in Tinkertown. Isn't that just a well-known feature of D&D flesh golems?
This is a bit more grandiose than I was thinking. I'm not suggesting it was a Checkov's Gun so much as a Checkov's Peashooter - for the readers who do not play D&D (estimated by the author to be the majority, IIRC), this feature is not known at all. Hence, by having it be an offhand comment earlier in a situation where it didn't make any difference whatsoever, it is already established for a later, much more notable occurance where it does matter without need for any more elaboration.

Also, Frankenstein monsters being powered by lightning strikes is kind of wildly accepted because of the famous movie.
Is it? This is the first I've heard about it outside of D&D. I'd imagine that lightning awakening them might be wildly accepted, but supercharging them?

[Fyraltari]

Is it? This is the first I've heard about it outside of D&D. I'd imagine that lightning awakening them might be wildly accepted, but supercharging them?

One is a "natural" extrapolation of the other. We tend to assume that if something starts a process, adding more of that thing will intensify that process, like adding wood to a fire.

[Ionathus]

One is a "natural" extrapolation of the other. We tend to assume that if something starts a process, adding more of that thing will intensify that process, like adding wood to a fire.

Yes! And it carries over to other interpretations: in the early 2000's Van Helsing movie, for instance, the Monster has some sort of tesla-coil looking thing embedded in his skin.

And in Castlevania - Portrait of Ruin, there is a Frankenstein's Monster enemy that shoots lightning out of its hands as a special attack.

All of this is to say: I feel like the average person would probably not associate flesh golems (i.e. Frankenstein's monster) with any specific element automatically, but if you said "pick an element that they might like/use," lightning would have some justification just going by popular media outside of D&D.

[halfeye]

Is it? This is the first I've heard about it outside of D&D. I'd imagine that lightning awakening them might be wildly accepted, but supercharging them?

I think it's also in the webserial "Twig", though I did find bits of that confusing.

[Peelee]

One is a "natural" extrapolation of the other. We tend to assume that if something starts a process, adding more of that thing will intensify that process, like adding wood to a fire.

Eh, again, that's not something I've really encountered. "Bring to life" is kind of a binary thing. Not alive, alive. Like, if you stab someone through the head and kill them, then adding more stabbings don't intensify the deadness.

I'm not saying it's not a thing, it may well be widely accepted. I just haven't encountered it or noticed it if I have.

[Precure]

It's from Pathfinder, I believe.


Electrified Flesh Golem: Through unknown processes, some flesh golems retain some of the electrical power used in their creation, while others are fashioned with implanted electro-thaumaturgical dynamos and capacitors that generate and store electrical energy. Electrified golems are able to channel this electricity into their attacks, as well as absorb electrical attacks to increase their speed. An electrified flesh golem’s melee attacks deal 1d6 points of electricity damage in addition to their normal damage.

[Grey Watcher]

Eh, again, that's not something I've really encountered. "Bring to life" is kind of a binary thing. Not alive, alive. Like, if you stab someone through the head and kill them, then adding more stabbings don't intensify the deadness.

I'm not saying it's not a thing, it may well be widely accepted. I just haven't encountered it or noticed it if I have.

Helps that being dead isn't a process but a state. (Yes, decay and such are things, but that's not quite the same thing. The person is equally dead whether they've been allowed to decompose naturally in
a grave or whether they've been pumped full of preservatives and frozen to keep the corpse intact.) The process is dying and more stabbing can intensify (more specifically, accelerate) the process of dying.

[Peelee]

Helps that being dead isn't a process but a state. (Yes, decay and such are things, but that's not quite the same thing. The person is equally dead whether they've been allowed to decompose naturally in
a grave or whether they've been pumped full of preservatives and frozen to keep the corpse intact.) The process is dying and more stabbing can intensify (more specifically, accelerate) the process of dying.

So the process of dying can be accelerated. And in the other direction, the process of being brought to life can be accelerated. Lightning could bring Frankenstein to life faster. Still not seeing how it makes him run faster.

[Squire Doodad]

So the process of dying can be accelerated. And in the other direction, the process of being brought to life can be accelerated. Lightning could bring Frankenstein to life faster. Still not seeing how it makes him run faster.

The assumption is that there are analogues between Frankenstein and a machine, and that lightning can make Frankenstein get "charged up" like a hypothetical trope of a robot would.
Of course this falls flat considering that said lightning would both sear flesh and overload circuits instead of doing anything beneficial, but the conceptual chain of events is there.

[Peelee]

The assumption is that there are analogues between Frankenstein and a machine, and that lightning can make Frankenstein get "charged up" like a hypothetical trope of a robot would.
Of course this falls flat considering that said lightning would both sear flesh and overload circuits instead of doing anything beneficial, but the conceptual chain of events is there.

Notwithstanding that it also falls flat considering Frankenstein was analogous with a machine in the same way that a fish is analogous with a laptop.

[brian 333]

We know that the only effect of lightning on living, or recently post mortem, flesh is to sear it, so it's a good thing nobody uses electrical pulses on people in danger of dying in the hopes of restoring normal heart rythms.

[Peelee]

We know that the only effect of lightning on living, or recently post mortem, flesh is to sear it, so it's a good thing nobody uses electrical pulses on people in danger of dying in the hopes of restoring normal heart rythms.

Are you talking about devices that make a waking person feel like they've been kicked in the chest by a horse? A device which has significant bedrest as an immediate follow-up to its successful use?

[halfeye]

Are you talking about devices that make a waking person feel like they've been kicked in the chest by a horse? A device which has significant bedrest as an immediate follow-up to its successful use?

I'm pretty sure they're talking in a sarcastic way about cardioversion, I had it twice I believe, neither time was I conscious, I believe that is usual.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure they're talking in a sarcastic way about cardioversion, I had it twice I believe, neither time was I conscious, I believe that is usual.

My immediate thought was defibrillation, but cardioversion also works. Not much difference functionally for this purpose, since both are quote painful when performed on someone conscious, and strenuous activity shortly afterwards is a foregone conclusion.

[brian 333]

Not being a medical professional, I would not recommend either treatment without a very good reason and a very good technician.

As a career industrial electrician I highly recommend avoidance of the application of electricity to a human body for any reason save medical necessity as determined by a qualified medical professional.

As a lifelong D&D player, gamer, and fiction enthusiast, I get the Frankenstein reference, but am once again finding humor in the idea of the application of real world science to a fantasy game ruleset. We accept without question that a cleric can cast a spell that nullifies what a large axe can do to a living body, but contest that lightning could cause a haste effect on an animated dead body.

[Peelee]

Not being a medical professional, I would not recommend either treatment without a very good reason and a very good technician.

As a career industrial electrician I highly recommend avoidance of the application of electricity to a human body for any reason save medical necessity as determined by a qualified medical professional.

As a lifelong D&D player, gamer, and fiction enthusiast, I get the Frankenstein reference, but am once again finding humor in the idea of the application of real world science to a fantasy game ruleset. We accept without question that a cleric can cast a spell that nullifies what a large axe can do to a living body, but contest that lightning could cause a haste effect on an animated dead body.

For what it's worth, I'm not contesting that at all. I'm simply contesting the idea that it is a natural extension of the idea that lightning was used to give life to Frankenstein in a version of the story.

[brian 333]

For what it's worth, I'm not contesting that at all. I'm simply contesting the idea that it is a natural extension of the idea that lightning was used to give life to Frankenstein in a version of the story.

Well, in the movie it didn't seem to work right away. Igor had to make yummy sounds first.

[Fyraltari]

Peelee, i'm not saying this id an universal truth, I am saying that "more of the cause produces more of the effect" is a very intuitive notion within our shared conceptual headspace. Lightning brings Frankenstein's monster from a state of inactivity to a state of activity. The idea that more lightning makes him more active does not need to be explained because it relies on that very idea. Conversely the idea that lightning hurts him would not have needed to be explained either because we all know electricity burns flesh.

The question is not whether "ligthning makes golem faster" is true, or holds up to scrutiny or even would be the most popular answer if you'd take a poll asking people what lightning would do to a golem, the question is whether it makes enough sense on an intuitive level for the story to present it without giving an explanation. In my experience, it does.

Edit: to take an example you're familiar with. I haven't watched Futurama, but I am aware that there's a scene where main character Fry drinks a hundred cups of coffee and gains superspeed as a result. Now, we all know coffee doesn't work like that, but we also all know that people who drink coffee feel more energetic after, therefore we can accept that drinking an absurd amount of coffee would give someone an absurd amount of energy.

[Ionathus]

Well said Fyraltari, I'm in much the same boat. I'm not saying that I expect lightning to power up a flesh golem, but if it did, that would make intuitive sense to me because of the trappings of that old Frankenstein movie that included the concept of lightning strikes (the original book never mentioned lightning).

Basically, I can look at the event and go "yeah, that scans."

[Peelee]

Peelee, i'm not saying this id an universal truth, I am saying that "more of the cause produces more of the effect" is a very intuitive notion within our shared conceptual headspace.

But the effect is "alive". "More alive" does not mean "can run faster". It's not an extension to the logical conclusion, any more than "drinking water makes you more alive so drinking a ton of water will make you run faster" is.

[Fyraltari]

But the effect is "alive". "More alive" does not mean "can run faster". It's not an extension to the logical conclusion, any more than "drinking water makes you more alive so drinking a ton of water will make you run faster" is.

A) We're not talking about logic. We're talking about intuition.
B) Despite the famous line, the Monster does not look alive. He looks dead but moving about.Again the lightning made him more active, more powerful, better than he was. The notion that more lightning would strengthen him further is intuitively understandable.

Like I said upthread, having no knowledge of D&D golems, but passing familiarity with the Frankenstein movie, when Crystal got supercharged, I went "Yeah, that makes sense."
Unless you want to argue that my brain works wrong, I don't really know what you expect to convince me of, here.

[Ionathus]

I'd be willing to bet that if you sat a random person with no D&D knowledge down, showed them a picture of a Frankenstein-inspired flesh golem, and told them that one of these four elemental forces in front of them (fire, cold, lightning, acid) would make the golem stronger, the most likely pick would be lightning, specifically because of "It's aliiiiiiiiiive!"

[Peelee]

A) We're not talking about logic. We're talking about intuition.
B) Despite the famous line, the Monster does not look alive. He looks dead but moving about.Again the lightning made him more active, more powerful, better than he was. The notion that more lightning would strengthen him further is intuitively understandable.

Like I said upthread, having no knowledge of D&D golems, but passing familiarity with the Frankenstein movie, when Crystal got supercharged, I went "Yeah, that makes sense."
Unless you want to argue that my brain works wrong, I don't really know what you expect to convince me of, here.
A.) intuitive conclusion, then. The water analogy still works.
B.) (ignoring that this should be "2.)") why despite the famous line? That line is arguably one of the most famous part of the movie, which surely influences things.

[Fyraltari]

A.) intuitive conclusion, then. The water analogy still works.
B.) (ignoring that this should be "2.)") why despite the famous line? That line is arguably one of the most famous part of the movie, which surely influences things.

https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/474x619/4/c/b3c50a0964ff474db283f09beab60cba1a2af8fb1103a125dd f8f79763946f/th.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid% 3DOIP.3V4cerX-FprvylXOknAIawHaJr%26pid%3DApi&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

[Peelee]

https://s2.qwant.com/thumbr/474x619/4/c/b3c50a0964ff474db283f09beab60cba1a2af8fb1103a125dd f8f79763946f/th.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid% 3DOIP.3V4cerX-FprvylXOknAIawHaJr%26pid%3DApi&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

Yes, I'm aware. I'm not swayed by that argument at all.

[Kish]

I'm a little confused by the idea that "lightning charges up golems" was some sort of Chekhov's Gun that Rich planned during DStP so that he could hearken back to it during the Golem Crystal fight in Tinkertown. Isn't that just a well-known feature of D&D flesh golems?
Yes, and Rich would probably not have spelled it out...

...if he was still counting on his audience knowing D&D 3.5ed rules.

[mashlagoo1982]

A.) intuitive conclusion, then. The water analogy still works.
B.) (ignoring that this should be "2.)") why despite the famous line? That line is arguably one of the most famous part of the movie, which surely influences things.

Actually, the water analogy does not hold water (pun totally intended).

For it to be correct, water would somehow need to grant a form of life (artificial or otherwise) to something that is not currently alive to accurately reflect what lightning is doing.

Maybe a better example is negative energy for undead?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Actually, the water analogy does not hold water (pun totally intended).

For it to be correct, water would somehow need to grant a form of life (artificial or otherwise) to something that is not currently alive to accurately reflect what lightning is doing.

Maybe a better example is negative energy for undead?

Or... You know, electricity to a machine.

[The Patterner]

Or... You know, electricity to a machine.

Or maybe andrenaline for a human?

A little makes us slightly faster, a bit more slightly faster again, much more and we die.

So I could see lightning doing something similar. Altough the rules should then take overloading (to much andrenaline) into account.

[Jasdoif]

I agree with JonahFalcon, normally a golem, as a creature with no self-awareness as we see it, wouldn't feel anything. Crystal feels the pain of being a construct with her human consciousness crammed inside it. She's a conscious machine.That's kind of what I'm thinking; an automaton wouldn't necessarily have a pain reaction, so dealing with the source of pain might not be something Grubwiggler does. And, well, I was dealing with nearly continual pain for the month after my surgery and that was just one eye; Crystal's had a lot more going on in the cutting department, if the number and size of her scars are any indication.


I will say that I find planning this level of details this in advance unlikely, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.You said it, man. Nobody messes with the Burlew.


It is - yes - but it's not quite as powerful as on Crystal.

On a normal Flesh Golem it heals them, and breaks any "slow" effect (fire and cold cause regular flesh golems to slow down - so electricity would remove this penalty).

On Crystal, what it appears to do is speed her up:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0978.html

the multiple images, make me think she isn't just travelling at "normal speed" - she's Hasted.
Peelee, i'm not saying this id an universal truth, I am saying that "more of the cause produces more of the effect" is a very intuitive notion within our shared conceptual headspace. Lightning brings Frankenstein's monster from a state of inactivity to a state of activity. The idea that more lightning makes him more active does not need to be explained because it relies on that very idea.I kind of guessed that Crystal was an advanced flesh golem, and thus had a more advanced version of a flesh golem's reaction to lightning exposure. At the same time, I'm reasonably certain the reason flesh golems were given beneficial effects from lightning exposure is due to that scene in Bride of Frankenstein; so this would be a case of "more of the same" related to Frankenstein's monster, just a bit more roundabout.

[Peelee]

You said it, man. Nobody messes with the Burlew.

This aggression will not stand, man.

[Jasdoif]

This aggression will not stand, man.The comic already has a Larry (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html), which makes it hard to demonstrate what happens.

[Peelee]

The comic already has a Larry (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html), which makes it hard to demonstrate what happens.

He was a stranger but I'm not entirely sure there are any Alps in Stickworld.

[Jasdoif]

He was a stranger but I'm not entirely sure there are any Alps in Stickworld.Hmm, good point....


https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/CrystalGolem_zpsf8a1dcst.png: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, BOZZOK! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STICK AN ASSASSIN WITHOUT ALPS


Almost works....And of course, you're right. The aggression did not stand. Well, I guess it did until it fell. Into the lava.

[Peelee]

Hmm, good point....


https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/CrystalGolem_zpsf8a1dcst.png: THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, BOZZOK! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STICK AN ASSASSIN WITHOUT ALPS


Almost works....And of course, you're right. The aggression did not stand. Well, I guess it did until it fell. Into the lava.

**** it, dude, let's go bowling.

[Jasdoif]

**** it, dude, let's go bowling.The dragon abides?

[drazen]

Xykon has been nonchalant about being decapitated (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html), so I think it's safe to say he doesn't have a normal sense of pain. He also lost his sense of taste/smell. The things that have caused him pain all seem to be magical stuff the would hurt a ghost.

Xykon can feel pain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) but maybe that was a specific effect of Smite Evil; that is, he normally feels no pain, but a few specific spells/abilities/etc. can still hurt him. He also said "Suck on that, arthritis!" when first turned into a lich in Start of Darkness, which would indicate a non-normal amount of pain.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon can feel pain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) but maybe that was a specific effect of Smite Evil; that is, he normally feels no pain, but a few specific spells/abilities/etc. can still hurt him. He also said "Suck on that, arthritis!" when first turned into a lich in Start of Darkness, which would indicate a non-normal amount of pain.

The implication seems to be that he's forgotten what pain feels like because it's been so long since he felt it. In other words, except for Smite Evil, and possibly some other magical means he's immune to pain.

The other implication is that he had arthritis as a living old geezer, but no longer after he's transformed into a lich.

[Jasdoif]

The implication seems to be that he's forgotten what pain feels like because it's been so long since he felt it. In other words, except for Smite Evil, and possibly some other magical means he's immune to pain.That's what I'm thinking....being skeletal he wouldn't have any(where near as many) nerve endings as when he was alive, so he wouldn't perceive pain in the same sense. Maybe liches have a more literal version of the Terminator 2 "I sense injuries. The data could be called pain" thing; the damage reduction would negate a lot of non-adventurer damage completely, so it could certainly have been a while since Xykon was hurt.