Classic problem of paladin vs CE caster in party

[Gruzzle]

We're playing RotRL and I've finally gotten to role up the paladin of Ragathiel I've been wanting to play for AGES. In keeping with his deity's teachings, my paladin does not judge anyone by their appearance and so easily befriended a Wayang(Master Summoner) who had come in on a ship to Sandpoint for the Swallowtail Festival. He stood up for him when some locals were judgy/unkind and the interesting creature was barbed in their response to the locals but not overtly mean to the paladin. So he was accepted into our fold. After a whirlwind of events, they found themselves, along with the rest of the party (an aasimar swashbuckler, a human alchemist(bomber), and an aasimar shaman) underneath Sandpoint and dealing with mutant abominations of unknown origin but clearly evil, as detailed by a Lamashtu worshiping cohort's journal entries. The mutants are to be used in a plot to destroy Sandpoint. The Wayang is seen killing helpless captors (goblins), summoning hell hounds to do their bidding, and despite multiple warnings that a orange pool is clearly bad news and shouldn't be trifled with, cuts their hand and drops blood in to summon more mutants. My paladin's alarm bells are going off but we're level 3 so the Wayang does not ping as Evil with detect evil yet. Even if we get past the current conflict, in one more level I'm going to have to navigate that too.

Out of character, I know the player has told me he made his character CE when he heard I wanted to play a paladin. It feels kind of aggro and I'm not here for that. I want to have fun and I've been really excited about finally playing a paladin. How can I help salvage this, we pick back up on Thursday with him having just summoned the mutant and then laughing at my paladin's protests. None of my current ideas are helpful or appropriate. Seeking more sage advice.

[Zanos]

Remember that paladins are allowed to cooperate with Evil characters to defeat a greater Evil, and a scourge of evil mutants probably qualifies.

IC issues I see:

Executing captive enemies:
You need to check this with your DM/Deity. In most settings, executing captive evil creatures is not out of bounds for Paladins. Otherwise every level 1 paladin would have a train of unconcious orcs/goblins/kobolds/whatevers behind him. Based on what I've read of Ragathiel, I do not think he would have an issue with executing evil captives.

Summoning evil creatures:
Shouldn't be an issue for a Paladin's ally. [Evil] spells are a pretty minor evil act, and only divine casters are barred from casting these for being Good. Neutral divine casters and Good arcane casters can usually use them without issue. Such creatures are controlled, so I wouldn't hold summoning bound fiends to be a massive black mark.

Doing some goofy stuff with a clearly evil location:
I'm not sure about this one. It seems like bad news, but it also seems like the other players character understands how it works a lot better than yours does. The effect he created seems to have given him control over an evil summoned creature, so I'd slot it in with the above. A red flag, but not that bad.

OC issues:
He chose to play a CE character when he heard you were a paladin. A DM should really step in to make sure that the party isn't headed for outright PVP. I think you should talk to both your DM and the other player why he picked CE after you chose a paladin?

[False God]

Out of character, I know the player has told me he made his character CE when he heard I wanted to play a paladin. It feels kind of aggro and I'm not here for that. I want to have fun and I've been really excited about finally playing a paladin. How can I help salvage this, we pick back up on Thursday with him having just summoned the mutant and then laughing at my paladin's protests. None of my current ideas are helpful or appropriate. Seeking more sage advice.

You need to talk to the DM. Explain exactly what you said there in bold to all of us, and get the DM to talk to the guy about why he's decided to troll you this way.

I'm not sure if you and the Wayang player are friends, if the DM and the Wayang player are friends, but something is clearly up. If the other guy is playing his character this way for no greater reason than he wants to poke a finger in your eye, that's an issue the DM needs to take up. If the DM doesn't want to address the issue, I'd advise finding a new group.

[Troacctid]

There's playing an evil adventurer, and there's playing a character who actively antagonizes the rest of the party. D&D is a cooperative game, and if a player refuses to work as a team, choosing instead to deliberately undermine the other players, that's a violation of the basic social contract inherent in an RPG, and the DM should intervene. My philosophy is that if you can't be a hero, then you at least need to be a professional.

Here is how a Chaotic Evil character should play:
"I want to stab the old man! 😈"
"You can't stab the quest-giver, Belkar. 😑"
"Aww! Can I at least set the inn on fire? 🥺"
"No. 😤" [spritzes CE character with spray bottle]

So, your three examples are killing captives, summoning hellhounds, and making a blood offering to an unknown device. The first can be spun as pragmatic, depending on the circumstance, and normally only undermines the mission if you need the captives alive for some reason. IC, your character can and should lay down a firm boundary: "Look, you're new here, but we don't do this, and if you want to keep adventuring with us, you have to respect this rule. And if you can't do that, that's fine, but choices have consequences. So, do you want to keep getting a share of the loot, or not?" OOC, you should lay down a similar boundary, and make it clear to the group that having the party committing war crimes makes you uncomfortable.

The second is not really a problem unless you make it one. Summoning evil creatures for combat purposes to help fight evil enemies is not a big deal, as long as the fiends are doing his bidding and not the other way around. I'd say if you can't let that one slide, YTA.

The third is much more of a chaotic act than an evil one. In fact, it's not really evil at all (unless you're taking the sacrificial blood unwillingly from someone else). It is the equivalent of shouting "I PULL THE LEVER!" the instant the DM mentions a lever. It's disruptive behavior for entirely unrelated reasons. If I were the DM, I would tell the player to slow down and discuss the course of action OOC first. If the rest of the party objects, consider it vetoed. Either way, this shouldn't have any bearing on your paladin oath, although, again, it is a problem for the game as a whole.

More broadly, I agree with False God that the big issue here is the player's stated reason for acting this way. If you tell someone you're playing a paladin and their response is to play a CE character solely for the purpose of antagonizing your paladin, that's just plain bullying, and you shouldn't have to put up with it. I would explain to the player (and the DM) that it's not funny and it's not fun, and ask them to tone it down to a more acceptable level. Like I said before, they don't have to be heroic, they just have to be professional. That means work as a team, respect group consensus, and don't cause mayhem for mayhem's sake.

[Crake]

The second is not really a problem unless you make it one. Summoning evil creatures for combat purposes to help fight evil enemies is not a big deal, as long as the fiends are doing his bidding and not the other way around. I'd say if you can't let that one slide, YTA.

I mean, I kinda disagree. Summoning [Evil] creatures means you're casting an [Evil] spell, which is very explicitly an Evil act. I know letting repeated Evil acts slide would kill my immersion if I was playing a paladin, since associating with people who repeatedly offend their moral code is against their code of conduct, so I don't think calling them out for it would make you an ahole. They have a whole list of summon options, just pick a non evil one.

[Troacctid]

I mean, I kinda disagree. Summoning [Evil] creatures means you're casting an [Evil] spell, which is very explicitly an Evil act. I know letting repeated Evil acts slide would kill my immersion if I was playing a paladin, since associating with people who repeatedly offend their moral code is against their code of conduct, so I don't think calling them out for it would make you an ahole. They have a whole list of summon options, just pick a non evil one.
Who cares? It's only evil on some abstract metaphysical level that you probably don't even understand without, like, a DC 20 Knowledge check. On a concrete, practical level, what you're doing is summoning some dogs to maul your enemies. That's not particularly shocking or obscene, and it's certainly not the moral opposite of doing the same thing with lions instead of dogs (even though summoning lions to maul your enemies is ostensibly a "good" act).

Also, the Code of Conduct doesn't restrict who you can associate with. Common misconception. Paladins do have a restriction on the people they can associate with, but that restriction is separate from the Code of Conduct and applies to underlings: cohorts, followers, and henchmen. Just having an evil party member doesn't matter at all for your Code as long as you aren't paying them wages or helping them to do evil things.

[hamishspence]

Also, the Code of Conduct doesn't restrict who you can associate with. Common misconception. Paladins do have a restriction on the people they can associate with, but that restriction is separate from the Code of Conduct and applies to underlings: cohorts, followers, and henchmen. Just having an evil party member doesn't matter at all for your Code as long as you aren't paying them wages or helping them to do evil things.

The Association Restriction begins with "adventure with"

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

A paladin cannot have cohorts, henchmen, or followers, who are not lawful good, but they can adventure with anyone who is Not Evil (or at least, so far as they know - they can also adventure with someone evil "unknowingly" (because they haven't found out the Evil character's actual alignment)).

[Kurald Galain]

Note that the caster is not casting a Summon Monster spell to summon a controlled evil creature for a couple rounds, but instead is using an evil location (the orange pool) and blood magic to create evil things that last indefinitely and are not controlled. It's totally fair for a good-aligned character to take issue with that.


You need to talk to the DM. Explain exactly what you said there in bold to all of us, and get the DM to talk to the guy about why he's decided to troll you this way.
Yes, that. The other player is deliberately being a jerk to you, and the DM needs to decide whether to block this or enable this (and note that there is no middle ground here; "doing nothing" directly means he's enabling it). If he enables it, I strongly suggest finding another group.

[Zanos]

The Association Restriction begins...
That's the 3.5 code. Based on OP describing a PF deity and PF class, guessing he is playing PF, and the much more relaxed PF code would apply.

[hamishspence]

That's the 3.5 code. Based on OP describing a PF deity and PF class, guessing he is playing PF, and the much more relaxed PF code would apply.
True - and the bit about characters at 3rd level or lower not "pinging" also pegs it as not 3.5.

The Pathfinder nonassociation rules:

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

[Thunder999]

Have you considered just smiting him? He clearly chose the character to be antagonistic.

Ragathiel's paladins also have this line in their code:


Those proven guilty must be punished for their crimes. I will not turn a blind eye to wrongdoing

So I don't think he's really allowed to just ignore it.

[Batcathat]

You need to talk to the DM. Explain exactly what you said there in bold to all of us, and get the DM to talk to the guy about why he's decided to troll you this way.

I'm not sure if you and the Wayang player are friends, if the DM and the Wayang player are friends, but something is clearly up. If the other guy is playing his character this way for no greater reason than he wants to poke a finger in your eye, that's an issue the DM needs to take up. If the DM doesn't want to address the issue, I'd advise finding a new group.

While I do agree the issue should be discussed OOC, I don't think it necessarily has to be a big deal. Yes, the player might've done it to screw with the OP and/or provoke PvP, but they might also just have thought that a CE character and a paladin would provide some interesting IC drama and role playing opportunities. So yes, talk to the group about it, but don't assume the worst.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, this player picked the wrong kind of Paladin to adventure with a CE character. Ragathiel is a pretty no-nonsense god, and his Paladin code is probably the second hardest core, after Torag's "genocide is okay actually if the victims are enemies of the dwarves".


I will avenge evil wrought upon the innocent.

I will not give my word lightly, but once it is given, I will uphold a promise until my last breath.

Those proven guilty must be punished for their crimes. I will not turn a blind eye to wrongdoing.

Rage is a virtue and a strength only when focused against the deserving. I will never seek disproportionate retribution.

Redemption finds hearts from even the cruelest origins. I will strive not to act upon prejudice against fellow mortals based on race or origin.

On the bright side for Mr. Summoner, a Ragathiel Paladin's honor would demand only that they be punished equivalently to their actions. No more, no less.

Summoning evil summons? Worth some harsh words, at most. It's an Evil act on the same order as not flushing in the public restroom, and is more than canceled out by the good being done by the summoning.

This may lull him into a false sense of security, but rest assured that if he ever does something truly heinous to get your gizzard, a Ragathiel Paladin is bound to see justice done no matter what, and the rest of the party had better be prepared to dig two graves.

If your DM tries to pull some **** and have you fall, fear not: the Vindictive Bastard (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Vindicti ve%20Bastard) is an appropriately named (and exceptionally powerful) Ex-Paladin archetype that will allow you to retain key powers (like Smite) long enough to murder the Summoner and then bounce out of the campaign afterward.

[Kurald Galain]

This may lull him into a false sense of security, but rest assured that if he ever does something truly heinous to get your gizzard, a Ragathiel Paladin is bound to see justice done no matter what, and the rest of the party had better be prepared to dig two graves.
While I like this approach, it is my repeated experience that any player that plays to provoke others will throw a hissy fit if anyone tries to retaliate, and that any DM that enables such a player will toss the "poor CE guy" a free rez so there's no consequences.

[Jack_Simth]

Over-summonig is one of the ways to kill the device, and that's hinted during the fight.

[137beth]

Having a paladin and a CE character in the same party isn't inherently an issue. Like many things related to alignment, it can become an issue if everyone at the table is not on board with it.

Completely unrelated to alignment or paladins, it is an issue when players are antagonistic to each other out-of-character. For example,


Out of character, I know the player has told me he made his character CE when he heard I wanted to play a paladin. It feels kind of aggro and I'm not here for that.
This sounds like the real problem. Talk with the rest of your group (including the GM) about how you feel about the situation.

[Hua]

Talk to the DM.
It is possible the DM has a planned in-game solution. That would be the best case.
IMO, as a paladin, you cannot continue to associate with this evil person. Is there a law force you can give evidence of crimes to? Creating and sending free willed evil creatures around probably will upset any authorities. Get him arrested and out of the game, at least for now.

The player made a decision to run a character to be a nemesis of yours, so accept that.
In character, warn the other that his actions are wrong and need to stop. Try to get the other characters to support this and get him kicked out. (The player can re-roll a new character.)
If he doesn't, you have a code to follow.
Use the law. If that won't work, if your character judges that this is an evil creature that needs killing as much as the others your group kills figure out how to do it and win.

[Gruzzle]

Fantastic input everyone, thank you so much!

I wanted to address things IC for now, since we are not yet level 4 so IC my paladin does not know his alignment. He will absolutely confront, and I really like the idea of abiding by local law/peace-keeping, esp based on character back-story. It is fair to say that summoners may bend anything to their will, and while OOC I know that (and that hellhound is a solid summon choice for the level) it's a concern my paladin has that he sees his ally "associating" with creatures from hell exclusively. In fairness, there's been no IC confrontation about this yet.

The clarification about paladin code (esp the nuance between 3.5 vs PF) is also VERY relevant and I'll keep it in mind. Ragathiel's paladin code i assume is a rider on TOP of this base standard for all paladins. Everything I listed was not to say that any one was an example of something inherently evil so much as to lay out the things that raised concerns when observed by my character.

I also like the sliding scale of what honor may demand in recompense for slights, real or perceived. Hopefully this will prevent any major issues for at least the time being.

I would like to know how you all feel a paladin ought to handle things when, at level 4 as I understand it, he'll be able to (constantly) detect evil presence standing at his side. How might this "feel" when he's detecting it? I get the impression that it's made to feel aggravating to encourage the paladin to address it and not remain in the presence of something like that for long if possible. Based on the Pathfinder code I don't imagine my character can stand to continue travelling with the Wayang. His personality is one where he does not push his own beliefs on others so I guess he leaves the party since he views the problem as his own, and not the others. I worry that this will kill the campaign but I'm also trying to roleplay my character (which is kind of a lame excuse, but ok I'm lame I guess).

[Gruzzle]

An update!

DM had a chat with the player, at the table with all present, about evil PCs and how that can be done well versus poorly. It was a much better monologue than I could've managed for sure. Player discussed character motivation a bit more, and DM pointed out good-leaning activities player's character had done, saving folks and defending folks. Player indicated that perhaps Chaotic Neutral was more in keeping with character's... character?

We entered play with him having just summoned the sinspawn, and my character took the "you know not what you do!" stance. He eventually commanded it back in to the pool with minimal resistance. I'm pleased with our character back-and-forth throughout the session. End of that session we hit level 4, so I suppose I will know soon enough if "evil" exists on that character sheet.

[Hua]

Glad it may work out IC.

[Kurald Galain]

Well done on resolving this!