Legendary Resistance vs. Grapple

[Amnestic]

I know it doesn't work as standard - my question is would you consider running it as something that could counter grapples/shoves?

Most ability checks in the game you make don't impose conditions, but grappling/shoving can/do, which is why it sprang to mind.

On the one hand, this is arguably a 'nerf' to martials, since now instead of being able to grapple Jim the Lich and lock him in place, Jim can blow a legendary resistance to make up for his subpar athletics/acrobatics scores.
On the other hand, blowing through a target's Legendary Resistance with a 'free' grapple (something which a martial can attempt probably 2-4 times per turn) is worth it in helping to set up for more severe conditions (stun, banishment, etc.). Giving every martial (and Grapples especially) the ability to force legendary resistance usage is probably good for 'teamwork'.
On the third hand, would doing that devalue the monk, since one of their appeals is using Stunning Strike to do exactly that?

Now that's not to say the legendary target will always blow an LR on avoiding being grappled, but I can certainly imagine times when they'd want to, especially if the party thus far have not been provoking many saves.

I'm torn on it - perhaps its something I'd give to certain creatures as a trait, rather than making it a universal 'rule'. Thoughts?

[Zhorn]

As a Legendary Resistance? No

As a Legendary Action? Probably yes, there are some that already do this as a consequence of what they already have.

Dragon's with wing attacks are able to push surrounding creatures away from them with a Legendary Action, thus breaking the grapple.
Githyanki Supreme Commander can teleport as a Legendary Action.
A few others also have the option to cast spells as Legendary Action, a few of which have Teleport, Dimension Door, and Misty Step on their printed spell lists.

[Unoriginal]

I know it doesn't work as standard - my question is would you consider running it as something that could counter grapples/shoves?

Not unless it's a special grapple/shove effect that use a save rather than an ability check.

I see no harm in people having invested in grappling/shoving to get to shine against a legendary opponent.

[Pyrophilios]

Freedom of movement is a thing as is teleport. If the lich has neither, he well deserves to be held in place.

[Psyren]

This is unnecessary, and while giving the lich more options might seem to be a buff at first, this could easily result in the lich behaving suboptimally (i.e. burning a valuable LR on something it really doesn't need to.)

I'm assuming that Jim the Lich is a generic one from the MM rather than one gussied up to be a big boss, but all the below should apply to a super lich as well (moreso in most cases.)

1) Grapple doesn't actually interfere with casters much in 5e. Neither the "grappled" nor "restrained" conditions (from the Grappler feat) actually do anything to stop casters from being able to cast, unless the effect accompanying the grapple specifically says otherwise. (Per JC, you must also bind their hands somehow (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/793504037316333569?lang=en) to be able to stop them from casting, and even then that only works on spells with somatic components.) This is why Thunderwave, despite having a somatic component, is so often used to break grapples, because those grapples generally don't include a way to stop you from moving one of your hands.

2) Speaking of thunderwave, the generic lich has multiple ways to escape a grapple - in addition to TW, they also have Plane Shift, Dimension Door (no somatic component in case you get manacles on it), its paralyzing touch action/legendary action (Incapacitate breaks your grapple), and Power Word Stun (stun causes incapacitate). They also have decent AC and can prevent it from landing in the first place via buffs like invisibility and mirror image.

3) As for usurping the monk's "niche" - good luck to the monk landing a stunning strike on something with a +10 Con save, and in doing so getting into melee range with something that can paralyze them for a minute targeting their own (bad) Con save.

[Amnestic]

Lich was just an example creature rather than a specific focus, wouldn't focus too much on Jimbo specifically.

[Psyren]

Lich was just an example creature rather than a specific focus, wouldn't focus too much on Jimbo specifically.

Okay fine, but #1 still applies. Grapple isn't that scary for a caster in 5e, so I generally wouldn't blow an LR on it (even if I was a caster that had no good ways out.) And most truly scary casters do have ways out anyway.

[JackPhoenix]

They also have decent AC and can prevent it from landing in the first place via buffs like invisibility and mirror image.

Not that most of that helps. Grapple doesn't interact with AC in any way, and invisibility doesn't matter either. Mirror Image arguably does, but has issues because the designers obviously didn't expect anything but attack rolls. Grapple is a special attack, so you can retarget it well enough, but it does not use attack rolls, so it can't "hit" (and thus destroy the duplicates), and the images have listed AC, but not stats necessary to resolve ability checks.

[Fumble]

I've been playing Dnd since the 80's and things like this are why we pretend grappling doesn't exist.

[Keltest]

Not that most of that helps. Grapple doesn't interact with AC in any way, and invisibility doesn't matter either. Mirror Image arguably does, but has issues because the designers obviously didn't expect anything but attack rolls. Grapple is a special attack, so you can retarget it well enough, but it does not use attack rolls, so it can't "hit" (and thus destroy the duplicates), and the images have listed AC, but not stats necessary to resolve ability checks.

Well, a mirror image ignores all effects that arent an attack that hits it, and since grapples dont hit, i would say it ignores the grapple attempt. Which would actually make Mirror Image a very good defense against unwanted grappling.

[Unoriginal]

3) As for usurping the monk's "niche" - good luck to the monk landing a stunning strike on something with a +10 Con save

Good luck?

If we imagine the Monk's Stunning Strike DC is 17, the Lich will fail 1/3 of the Con saves on average, with a +10.

It'll cost some ki to make it stick, but a Monk is quite likely to land that Stunning Strike.



and in doing so getting into melee range with something that can paralyze them for a minute targeting their own (bad) Con save.

Given the power level of a Lich, a Monk who challenges one while part of a group with a chance to win against the undead most likely does not have any bad save.


I've been playing Dnd since the 80's and things like this are why we pretend grappling doesn't exist.

Grappling is pretty good in 5e, though.

[Psyren]

Good luck?

If we imagine the Monk's Stunning Strike DC is 17, the Lich will fail 1/3 of the Con saves on average, with a +10.

It'll cost some ki to make it stick, but a Monk is quite likely to land that Stunning Strike.

Yes, good luck. Your 33% chance is dependent on a combined +9 Wis/proficiency bonus, and before that they to hit in the first place so they need Dex too (except for Astral.) Even assuming the lich doesn't have mirror image up, their 17 AC doesn't include the Shield they can throw up in response to your first hit, so you're actually looking at a greater than 67% chance the monk fails to land a stun. That's a pretty odd way to end up concluding "quite likely."


Given the power level of a Lich, a Monk who challenges one while part of a group with a chance to win against the undead most likely does not have any bad save.

Point, except your Con is likely to still be 14 (or less), so even being proficient still means DC 18 is not an easy sell.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes, good luck. Your 33% chance is dependent on a combined +9 Wis/proficiency bonus, and before that they to hit in the first place so they need Dex too (except for Astral.) Even assuming the lich doesn't have mirror image up, their 17 AC doesn't include the Shield they can throw up in response to your first hit, so you're actually looking at a greater than 67% chance the monk fails to land a stun. That's a pretty odd way to end up concluding "quite likely."

If you can get a lich to use Shield, great! That means it does not have a reaction for Counterspell.

[Chronos]

One combination that my players pulled on me was to use a Silence spell, and grapple the spellcaster to keep them in the area. There are still a few spells that can save a caster's bacon in that situation, but not all casters have them.