Building a Party Buffer

[Delta_tea]

ECL 7, I'm trying to build a character that can buff the heck out of the party and be a support character. I'm thinking of Cleric as a base with DMM Persist/Extend. I was debating mixing in some Bard because they get some decent party abilities, but I hate the idea of losing caster levels. For dealing damage, standing back and throwing Darkfire (range touch attack) seems to be easiest. I don't want to steal glory from the melee, the party face, or the wizard. So Support seems like a good spot to help everyone shine brighter.

I was debating taking Dweomerkeeper to get cheaper metamagic (eventually), Thaumaturgist to throw out helpful summons, or Spelldancer some free metamagic per day (need a ton of feats to enter). But I'm open to ideas on other classes and mixes!

I'm trying to avoid RKV, again, I don't want to show up the melee so I'd rather use my Turn Undead charges to persist spells.

Thanks again for the ideas!

[Gruftzwerg]

If you are looking for something odd, how about a warlock as support?

It may sound like a bad (Use Magic Device) support option, but there are a few unique things (mentioned at the end) that only warlocks can do.

1. Regular buffs come from wands.
This is true for most buff-builds and the warlock is no difference here. So that covers any low lvl stuff you need to be a support character

2. Pick a small race and put ranks into "ride"
Ride your allies. Add Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack (either pick the feats or get it via magic items: saddle and boots) to help your allies. Mounted Combat lets you roll ride to avoid an attack on your "mount" ally. Ride-by-Attack lets your charging ally move further past his target to reposition after the attack.

3. Obtain Familiar
Since we share skill ranks with our familiar, it can ride another ally. Give it the items (saddle & boots) for the feats, so that it can fully support the ally mount. Pick a Raven familiar to use command word magic items (UMD wands). This way you can split up the buffing process and can use 2 wands per round.

_________________
Special Warlock stuff
_________________

4. Flee the Scene
Dimension Door at will and leaves an afterimage for 1 round. Since DD can be used on multiple allies at higher lvls, you can help your allies out by repositioning em. Help your ubercharger to find the sweet spot to charge or help your squishy allies to disengage from melee. Pass any wall or door without making any noise with your party all day long. Get IN & OUT whenever you wish.

5. (either) Disembodied Hand or Crawling Eye invocation + Symbiotic template (Savage Species)
With either of these invocations you can give any willing target a +1 LA template to share ALL (!) your special abilities with it. The Disembodied Hand/Crawling Eye becomes the template/guest for the host creature. Use your familiar since it ain't bothered by the +1 LA. Now your familiar can use all your abilities.

6. forming a symbiotic "Circle"
As showcased in my BORG Queen (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?643998-quot-I-am-the-BORG-quot-the-BORG-Queen)build, you can chain the mentioned combo (5) into a "Circle". The familiar uses the combo on an ally. That ally uses on the next ally and so on. You become the final link in the Circle. For a mere +1LA all your allies share all special abilities with you (including feats and stuff). Sole problem can be that they all get your mental stats (INT; WIS; CHA) which can be problematic for some classes. But other than that, this is the strongest way to buff up your party.


As you can see, a warlock can be support character. And if you want, it can be crazy powerful and odd^^.

[pabelfly]

A Truenamer is an interesting, albeit unconventional support option. It's pretty good at buffing and debuffing.

Downsides:
- You can't persist all day like a Cleric can. Utterances are quite short, usually 5 rounds, (10 with Extend Utterance)
- Don't have the breadth of options of Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, etc
- No group buffs, few group debuffs (until very late)
- Buff options come later than standard in other builds
- You can't use an utterance if it's already in use, nor can you use the reverse version if the regular version is in use. For example, you can't haste two people, or haste one person then slow an enemy until the first haste wears off.
- In-combat healing is only a small amount each round

Upsides:
- Can be a fun optimisation challenge, especially if you want something different to normal and are uninterested in standard build options
- Being INT-based means you're going to have lots of skill points. You will likely play the party knowledge bank, which can be a good non-combat support role if your DM has a detailed game setting
- You could be casting your utterances much more than other casters, depending on WBL, allowed sources, and optimisation ability
- Can wear heavy armor with minimal issue if you don't want to invest in dex
- Quicken Utterance at level 9 means you can buff/debuff your two strongest utterances twice each turn
- Many debuff utterances have no saves
- Mortalbane feat means you can debuff and damage enemies at the same time

Its not for everyone, but I find it a fun (and occasionally frustrating) class to play. I think it's worth a look if you specifically want to buff your team

[Gorthawar]

I'd like to play a bard / war-weaver sometime. Casting a bunch of buffs as a move action and then adding a nice song of inspiration on top seems pretty nifty.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Full artificer using a bow and spell-storing aurorum dye arrows (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrows-common/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/)? The arrows can be retrieved and reused, the spells can be UMD'd or done via infusions, and the dye can be replaced with alchemical substances and magical oils (touch-based potions under the potions creation heading in the SRD, which you might be able to make with the quick potion spell), and you can fire several arrows every round for multiple buffs per target.

Debuffing can be done the same way.

Or you could do something similar with a cleric, wizard, sorcerer, bard, or StP erudite base, or even on a druid, if you're mainly concerned about buffing animals.

[Biggus]

If you can use one of the early entry tricks so you only lose one caster level, Mystic Theurge is worth considering. Cleric is where the best buffs are, but Wizard has quite a few decent ones too. Can be combined with Dweomerkeeper too. So C3/W1/MT1/DK10/MT+5 or C3/W1/MT10/DK6 maybe?

[Thunder999]

have you considered a wizard/War Weaver, you lose a caster level but get incredibly action and slot efficient buffing, hit the whole party with haste, polymorph, heroics and blur as a move action.

[Endarire]

Read the handbooks on War Weaver and Inspire Courage optimization.

[Rebel7284]

I made a fun buffer recently that can give up to 9HD and 3 feats eventually. It does take off at level 8 but gets much of it's power then or soon thereafter.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-Maker

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I made a fun buffer recently that can give up to 9HD and 3 feats eventually. It does take off at level 8 but gets much of it's power then or soon thereafter.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-MakerA single spell can grant several times that. A single casting of the curse of lycanthropy from C.Divine can grant dozens of HD, if you choose the right animal type. 26 HD for a legendary tiger (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm), as an example. Not doable for a Small character, but Medium is fine.

[Eladrinblade]

A DMM persist cleric is basically a fighter. If you want a support character, I'd go cloistered cleric and be choosy with the domains and your skills.

[Particle_Man]

If cloistered cleric is allowed you might look at generic spellcaster. They get access to cleric, druid and wizard/sorcerer spells (so you could choose the best buffs from all three lists) and turn undead is only a feat away. It is a way to sort of theurge without losing a caster level.

Oh and for race glimmerskin halfling (from dragon magic) can grant a luck bonus to an ally’s saving throw as an immediate action, which seems thematically on point.

[Rebel7284]

A single spell can grant several times that. A single casting of the curse of lycanthropy from C.Divine can grant dozens of HD, if you choose the right animal type. 26 HD for a legendary tiger (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm), as an example. Not doable for a Small character, but Medium is fine.

There are major differences and issues with using Curse of Lycanthropy in this way.

- It was updated in Spell Compendium to do something completely different, so your DM has to approve using the old version. Many will not making the remaining points redundant.
- Applying a template changes your ECL and thus the amount of experience you get. Temporary HD do not have this issue.
- As the condition manifests during the next full moon, it's unclear if you get the animal HD until then.
- Curse of Lycanthropy is only on the Pestilence Domain, so unless you build specifically around this spell, accessibility is a real issue. (Certainly you can eventually wish/miracle it, but that's very high levels)



A DMM persist cleric is basically a fighter. If you want a support character, I'd go cloistered cleric and be choosy with the domains and your skills.

While you certainly can persist party buffs, personal buffs do tend to be better, so I agree that DMM cleric turns into a buffstack fighter more easily than a support character, even if support IS possible.


If cloistered cleric is allowed you might look at generic spellcaster. They get access to cleric, druid and wizard/sorcerer spells (so you could choose the best buffs from all three lists) and turn undead is only a feat away. It is a way to sort of theurge without losing a caster level.

Oh and for race glimmerskin halfling (from dragon magic) can grant a luck bonus to an ally’s saving throw as an immediate action, which seems thematically on point.

Doesn't hurt to ask! Although I will say that RAW discourages generic classes and regular classes in the same campaign.

[Delta_tea]

Thanks for all of the ideas. I've been researching as well. What do you'll think of these ideas?

Option 1 - Stopping at ECL 8
Keep Cleric like and get more turn undead charges
MAD, but Wisdom focused for casting and bonus spells

Example
1-3 Cloister Cleric, Rebuke Dragon ACF, pick up Sun Domain / Pelor
4-6, filler, Church Inquisitor, Mystic Theurge maybe (I have a DragonSpawn which comes with 1 free sorcerer level)
7 Radiant Servant of Pelor, Extra Greater Turning (combo with Sun Domain) (also gives armor, shield and martial weapons)
8 Sacred Exorcist, normal Turn Undead charges

9+ Radiant Servant of Pelor/or Mystic Theurge

3 TU pools, full caster
4th level Cleric spells, 2nd/3rd level Sorcerer spells (depending on filler classes)

1 feat - Precocious Apprentice to make Mystic Theurge to work
1 feat - Extra Turning to make Radiant Servant of Pelor to work (probably taking this anyways)

Option 2 - Stopping at ECL 8
Use Archivist to get more spell access (other divine classes) and Dark knowledge, but getting Turn Undead gets a lot harder
Still kind of MAD, need Academic Priest feat to have Int base for bonus spells, Wisdom still needed for saves
Archivist is expensive! I'm guessing I'll end up using half my Wealth by Level paying for spells.

Will have to burn a level to get Turn Undead and Sun Domain

1 Cloister Cleric, Rebuke Dragon ACF, pick up Sun Domain / Pelor
2-6 Archivist
7 Radiant Servant of Pelor, Extra Greater Turning (combo with Sun Domain) (also gives armor, shield and martial weapons)
8 Sacred Exorcist, normal Turn Undead charges

9+ Archivist (more spells) / or Mystic Theurge

Since Archivist comes with Scribe Scroll feat this path qualifies for Dweomerkeeper at level 6. But it is not compatible with Radiant Servant of Pelor because Pelor can't grant access to Magic Domain.

3 pools, 1 level of caster behind, a boat load of amazing spells
4th level divine spells (from ALL divine classes), 1st level Sorcerer spells (DragonSpawn) (no real push on Mystic Theurge)
1 feat - Academic Priest, a little less MAD
1 feat - Precocious Apprentice to make Mystic Theurge to work
1 feat - Extra Turning to make Radiant Servant of Pelor to work (probably taking this anyways)
*Dweomerkeeper and Pelor are NOT compatible with each other

Option 3 - Stopping at ECL 8 - Full caster Archivist
*Only way to not lose a caster level is 2-feat God Touched & Divine Channeler unlocks Turn or Rebuke. Since not a Cleric, can't use Rebuke Dragon ACF. So its either use 2-feat or wait for Sacred Exorcist to become available.
This route also makes it hard to get Sun Domain to keep Pelor happy. So probably won't be compatible with RSoP.

Use Archivist to get more spell access (other classes) and Dark knowledge, but getting Turn Undead gets a lot harder
Still kind of MAD, need Academic Priest feat to have Int base for bonus spells, Wisdom still needed for saves
Archivist is expensive! I'm guessing I'll end up using half my Wealth by Level paying for spells.

1-5 Archivist
6-7 Singer of Concordance (pick up Magic Domain for Dweomekeeper)
8 Sacred Exorcist, normal Turn Undead charges

9+ Archivist (more spells) / Dweomekeeper / or Mystic Theurge

Since Archivist comes with Scribe Scroll feat this path qualifies for Dweomerkeeper at level 6. Singer of Concordance gives a path to Magic Domain.

1 pools, full caster, boat load of amazing spells
4th level divine spells (from ALL divine classes), 1st level Sorcerer spells (DragonSpawn)
1 feat - Academic Priest, a little less MAD
1 feat - Precocious Apprentice to make Mystic Theurge to work
*Dweomerkeeper and Pelor are NOT generally compatible with each other


Summary
So really is it better to go after more Turn Undead charges for more persist spells, more spell options like Archivist / Mystic Theurge, or keeping up with full caster. So many options!!!

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can't advance racial sorcerer casting with Mystic Theurge since it specifies an existing arcane casting class.
Even if your DM rules otherwise 2nd level sorcerer casting isn't really worth it, especially not if it requires 15 Cha to take Precocious Apprentice when you're already MAD.

Greater Turning doesn't qualify for fueling DMM.
Radiant Servant of Pelor and Church Inquisitor have conflicting alignment requirements.
Church Inquisitor requires divine Zone of Truth which is a 2nd level spell so you can't take it before level 4.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can't advance racial sorcerer casting with Mystic Theurge since it specifies an existing arcane casting class.Racial classes are things that exist. And you can turn any creature (HD+LA) into a racial class. So if you start out as a creature with racial spellcasting and already have all the HD and LA, you've already taken the racial class to its conclusion and can extend it with a PrC, including theurging.

[Delta_tea]

You can't advance racial sorcerer casting with Mystic Theurge since it specifies an existing arcane casting class.
Even if your DM rules otherwise 2nd level sorcerer casting isn't really worth it, especially not if it requires 15 Cha to take Precocious Apprentice when you're already MAD.

Greater Turning doesn't qualify for fueling DMM.
Radiant Servant of Pelor and Church Inquisitor have conflicting alignment requirements.
Church Inquisitor requires divine Zone of Truth which is a 2nd level spell so you can't take it before level 4.

I'll read more about racial casting. I know Dragons have some other things baked into them I keep discovering. Like aging stats I just figured out based on what people do with Kobolds. As to 15 Cha, I already have a lot of it because I'm trying pump up the number Turn Undead which is Charisma dependent. The only reason I'm playing with idea of more Sorcerer is that it would get me more spell slots for Wings of Cover and maybe some offensive buff spells like Haste. Time Domain is hard to pick up with this mix of classes and Deities. Alter Self would also be an interesting spell to mess with. You are right, in general Sorcerer is BAD. But as a bolt-on to a good class, it's a nice casual modifier for a spontaneous cast. Enlarge Person (for tank/melee) and Benign Transposition (for Wizard getting attacked by melee) for example are amazing level 1 spells. I can only imagine having more options that are more or less free. I don't depend on Sorcerer spell slots like I do Cleric/Divine slots.

For Greater Turning, I think it may still count. PHB pg 188
Sun Domain "Granted Power: Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead."

Therefore, since TU IS fuel for DMM, then Greater Turning is also still fuel; since the exception did not change that part of it.

Then when you look at Radiant Servant of Pelor, it just adds more charges and does not redefine it. Complete Divine pg 52
"Extra Greater Turning: The radiant servant of Pelor can perform a greater turning (the granted power of the Sun domain) a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."

Good call on align issue with Radiant Servant of Pelor and Church Inquisitor have conflicting alignment requirements. That's always a challenge of mixing classes. But really CI is just filler to make things more interesting since basic Cleric has very boring Class features. And agree, CI entry is level 4 at the earliest.

[Delta_tea]

Racial classes are things that exist. And you can turn any creature (HD+LA) into a racial class. So if you start out as a creature with racial spellcasting and already have all the HD and LA, you've already taken the racial class to its conclusion and can extend it with a PrC, including theurging.

That's makes since! I figured it was something like that. And it's not like Sorcerer just advances on its own because my HD gets larger. That's a feature of the PrC.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Racial classes are things that exist. And you can turn any creature (HD+LA) into a racial class. So if you start out as a creature with racial spellcasting and already have all the HD and LA, you've already taken the racial class to its conclusion and can extend it with a PrC, including theurging.

Do you have a rules citation to back that up? Especially that you can do it with a race that has no LA or racial HD?

[Harrow]

I think you may be misinformed as to how the Persistent Spell metamagic works. It almost exclusively works on Personal range spells. A DMM: Persist Cleric is good not because it makes the rest of the party better, but because it does the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can. There are ways around that restriction, but there difficult hoops to jump through at level 7 and you don't seem to be accounting for them in your builds.

Honestly, if you want to be a party buffer, you generally go Bard or War Weaver. Alternatively, Artificer can work, if you know what you're doing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do you have a rules citation to back that up? Especially that you can do it with a race that has no LA or racial HD?Page 25 of Savage Species says the following:

Rather than rework all the monsters in the Monster Manual that could make good characters in this way, this chapter presents one example to illustrate the technique. Dozens more appear in Appendix 1: Sample Monster Classes. Each example discusses the reasoning behind the decisions made about how that monster advances. Players and DMs, working together, can use these rules and that reasoning to develop other monster kinds as classes for their campaigns.

So making monster classes is entirely within the rules, and Ch 3 gives the basic rules for it.

Page 27 says:

It is possible for a monster to complete its class progression and still not have a full Hit Die. For instance, the grig has only a fractional Hit Die at its full potential. When such a creature takes its first level in a class other than its monster class, do not roll the class Hit Die for hit points. Instead, use the maximum possible result for that class’s Hit Die.

A monster race can have no LA, and there are rules for that. Then we have rules for less than 1 HD, as well. So, yeah.

[Delta_tea]

I think you may be misinformed as to how the Persistent Spell metamagic works. It almost exclusively works on Personal range spells. A DMM: Persist Cleric is good not because it makes the rest of the party better, but because it does the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can. There are ways around that restriction, but there difficult hoops to jump through at level 7 and you don't seem to be accounting for them in your builds.

Honestly, if you want to be a party buffer, you generally go Bard or War Weaver. Alternatively, Artificer can work, if you know what you're doing.

Complete Arcane pg 81 Persistent Spell
"Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level."

So Personal range is good, fixed ranged is good, touch or variable range cannot be persisted.
There a several fixed ranged spells out there that a party could benefit from. Bless, Interfaith Blessing, Elation, Prayer, Recitation, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful; for example are decent party buffs. There are many more. The trick is to make sure they don't conflict on type.

Bard is kind of limited on spells which why I'm looking into Archivist. But I'm reading more on War Weaver. I'm not sure if I'm ready to focus that much on the arcane side of things just yet. Tapestry definitely does look useful however! Your right Artificer is the answer to everything. We have one in our party and I'm trying not to step on his toes.

[Anthrowhale]

Spelldancer provides the best approach to persistomancy since it's unlimited. The feat tax is rough here, but possible to pay.

One entry is:

Human Arcane Disciple (Dragon #311) Cleric 5/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1

using as feats:
Human: Dodge
1. Combat Casting
AD Cleric 1. Extend Spell
3. Mobility
AD Cleric 5. Persistent Spell
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6. Endurance

It's possible to actually pay zero feats and via that open up the choice of race and spellcasting class.
Flaws allow for an extra 2 feats for Extend Spell & Persistent Spell
Armor of Mobility (MIC) gives access to Mobility.
The Mirror Move spell gives access to Combat Casting and Dodge.
Favor of the Martyr (which you'll want to cast anyways) gives access to Endurance. You'll need to be an Archivist to use this effectively. (Sandals of the Vagabond from Complete Champion is the alternative means of Spelldancing forever.)

Also note that a party buffer persistomancer benefits a great deal from picking up Ocular Spell and Chain Spell for efficient dispensation of buffs to multiple party members. Thus, you could have something like:
Human Archivist 5/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1 using Persistent Favor the Martyr and Mirror Move along with Armor of Mobility and the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will, with feats like:
Human: Ocular Spell
1. Extend Spell
3. Persistent Spell
6. Chain Spell

Which leaves all but 2 of your spells free for party buffing with every spell able to buff the full party.

[Delta_tea]

Spelldancer provides the best approach to persistomancy since it's unlimited. The feat tax is rough here, but possible to pay.

One entry is:

Human Arcane Disciple (Dragon #311) Cleric 5/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1

using as feats:
Human: Dodge
1. Combat Casting
AD Cleric 1. Extend Spell
3. Mobility
AD Cleric 5. Persistent Spell
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6. Endurance

It's possible to actually pay zero feats and via that open up the choice of race and spellcasting class.
Flaws allow for an extra 2 feats for Extend Spell & Persistent Spell
Armor of Mobility (MIC) gives access to Mobility.
The Mirror Move spell gives access to Combat Casting and Dodge.
Favor of the Martyr (which you'll want to cast anyways) gives access to Endurance. You'll need to be an Archivist to use this effectively. (Sandals of the Vagabond from Complete Champion is the alternative means of Spelldancing forever.)

Also note that a party buffer persistomancer benefits a great deal from picking up Ocular Spell and Chain Spell for efficient dispensation of buffs to multiple party members. Thus, you could have something like:
Human Archivist 5/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1 using Persistent Favor the Martyr and Mirror Move along with Armor of Mobility and the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will, with feats like:
Human: Ocular Spell
1. Extend Spell
3. Persistent Spell
6. Chain Spell

Which leaves all but 2 of your spells free for party buffing with every spell able to buff the full party.

I did a lot of reading. Spelldancer is definitely interesting... How do you not fail the accumulated check from the previous day? It seems to add up fast and be a some what hard cap.

[tyckspoon]

I did a lot of reading. Spelldancer is definitely interesting... How do you not fail the accumulated check from the previous day? It seems to add up fast and be a some what hard cap.

Either find a way to be immune to fatigue/exhaustion so you just don't care, or have a reliable way to cure the Con damage + fatigue effect. Neither is particularly difficult to do; you don't even try to pass the DC 60-70-80-whatever Fortitude saves, you just ignore or mitigate the consequences.

[Anthrowhale]

Adding some detail to Tyckspoon:

The level 4 Cleric/Druid spell 'Sheltered Vitality' in Spell Compendium makes you immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and ability damage for minutes/level.

The level 4 Paladin (=Archivist) spell Favor of the Martyr makes you immune to fatigue and exhaustion while granting the Endurance feat and is persistable.

The level 2 Cleric/Druid spell Body Ward absorbs 5 points of ability damage for minutes/level.

[Rebel7284]

...
The level 4 Paladin (=Archivist) spell Favor of the Martyr makes you immune to fatigue and exhaustion while granting the Endurance feat and is persistable.
...


No it isn't... (at least without shenanigans)
Favor of the Martyr
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No it isn't... (at least without shenanigans)
Favor of the Martyr
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)Ocular Spell to make the range 60'?

[Delta_tea]

Adding some detail to Tyckspoon:

The level 4 Cleric/Druid spell 'Sheltered Vitality' in Spell Compendium makes you immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and ability damage for minutes/level.

Sheltered Vitality also can't be persisted, its range touch.

[Anthrowhale]

No it isn't... (at least without shenanigans)
Favor of the Martyr
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Ah, your right---was misremembering.


Ocular Spell to make the range 60'?

Yep.

[tyckspoon]

Sheltered Vitality also can't be persisted, its range touch.

While this is a really good effect to have Persisted if you can (DM thinks 'you can't persist touch' is dumb or permits one of the tricks for converting it to a definitely fixed range) it's worth noting that you don't need it Persisted just for purposes of letting you get your Spelldances in. Minutes/level is absolutely sufficient to get all the important spells and a good number of less important ones. Maybe Extended, if your CL is still a relatively lowish number.

[Rebel7284]

No it isn't... (at least without shenanigans)
Favor of the Martyr
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)


Ocular Spell to make the range 60'?

Exactly the kind of questionable shenanigans I had in mind in my parenthetical.

With that said, if you are trying to Persist all your buffs in the morning before the party goes adventuring, a regular (or extended) Favor of the Martyr may be enough.

[Delta_tea]

While this is a really good effect to have Persisted if you can (DM thinks 'you can't persist touch' is dumb or permits one of the tricks for converting it to a definitely fixed range) it's worth noting that you don't need it Persisted just for purposes of letting you get your Spelldances in. Minutes/level is absolutely sufficient to get all the important spells and a good number of less important ones. Maybe Extended, if your CL is still a relatively lowish number.


Exactly the kind of questionable shenanigans I had in mind in my parenthetical.

With that said, if you are trying to Persist all your buffs in the morning before the party goes adventuring, a regular (or extended) Favor of the Martyr may be enough.

Ok I think I see it! So basically you only need to be immune for as long as your dancing in the morning to prepare spells. After that, it doesn't matter!!!
Looks like Sheltered Vitality (Cleric 4) would stop the ability damage (Con damage) and the fatigue.

So yes Spelldancer, this would allow using metamagic on all "applicable" Cleric spells without counting Turn Undead charge anymore, which is a win in my opinion! The only step better, is it possible do this with Archivist class for more spell list access?

Spelldancer Requirements:
-Skills
---Concentration 4 ranks (On Cleric/Archivist list, 4 skill points)
---Perform 6 ranks (dance) (Use Mystic Wanderer level to get this, 6 skill points)
---Tumble 4 ranks (NOT on Cleric/Archivist/Mystic Wanderer list, 8 skill points)

-Feats: Combat Casting , Dodge , Endurance , Mobility
-Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level spells. (5th level Cleric)

Mystic Wanderer Requirements:
-Skills
--Alchemy 3 (Craft is On Cleric/Archivist list, 3 skill points)
--Diplomacy 8 (On Cleric/Archivist list, 8 skill points)
--Knowledge nature 3 (NOT on Cleric list, 6 skill points / IS on Archivist list, 3 skill points)
--Perform 3 (NOT on Cleric/Archivist list, 6 skill points)
--Profession 3 herbalist (Profession On Cleric/Archivist list, 3 skill points)

-Feats: Iron Will
-Spellcasting: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells.

Progression:
Flaw1 (Fussy): Extend Feat
Flaw2 (Cold-Blooded): Persistent Spell Feat
Human Bonus: DodgeFeat

Becomes Sea Dragonspawn (Feats: Same as the base creature.)

AD Cleric1 Bonus Feat: Mobility Feat
Level 3: Combat Casting Feat

Otyugh Hole: 3000g - Iron Will for Mystic Wanderer

AD Cleric5 Bonus Feat: Endurance Feat
Level 6: Ocular Spell Feat

level 6: Enter Mystic Wanderer
level 7: Enter Spelldancer

----------------------------

However, Anthrowhale did have an interesting idea with Mirror Move spell (thank you Wizards Online!)

Mirror Move (can copy Dodge, Mobility and Combat Casting), can be Persisted!!! - need Int of 16 to cover 3 feats.
https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181035/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a

Would need to pick up:
Iron Will - Otyugh Hole: 3000g
Endurance - Persisted, Favor of the Martyr (Paladin 4)

But in theory, this would allow Archivist/Mystic Wanderer to enter Spelldancer with 4 more feat available. So really, that would just leave me in fear of Dispel Magic since that could break my Spelldancer Prestige Class.

[Delta_tea]

Slight error on my part. Mirror Move spell is Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2. So I'd need to pump up my Sorcerer 1 from Dragonspawn up 2 more levels to access it. Maybe slide in Mystic Theurge some how...

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can also get the Endurance feat from Unfailing Endurance (Cl 4, DotF). It lasts 1 day/level so you don't have to persist it.

[Delta_tea]

You can also get the Endurance feat from Unfailing Endurance (Cl 4, DotF). It lasts 1 day/level so you don't have to persist it.

That's kind of an amazing spell. I know Endurance isn't amazing, but the way the spell functions is very nice.

Target: One living creature/level
Duration: 1 day/level

I can basically cast it and pass it out to the whole party in the process, just because.

[Anthrowhale]

...

A few thoughts that might help:


The AD Cleric bonus feat needs to be metamagic.
Mirror Move is a bit fragile, because it requires things be demonstrated just prior to casting. This interacts particularly poorly with dispelling.
Mobility is again a freebie with the armor enhancement.
Heroics is another approach to paying some of the feat tax which is available via the Spell Domain or possibly via an (everlasting) wand.
For an Archivist entry, one tool is Church Inquisitor which can be entered at level 4 and provides a domain, which can be swapped to any other domain of your chosen deity via the Substitute Domain spell.

[Rebel7284]

----------------------------

However, Anthrowhale did have an interesting idea with Mirror Move spell (thank you Wizards Online!)

Mirror Move (can copy Dodge, Mobility and Combat Casting), can be Persisted!!! - need Int of 16 to cover 3 feats.
https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181035/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a


Before you do this, confirm with your DM that you don't automatically lose all you class features the moment you are hit with Dispel Magic! Your DM's mileage may vary.

Also, if you want free feats with a little less risk, consider purchasing a few castings of Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos and throwing some racial feats/magic location feats at it. Much more expensive, but the feats are permanent.

[Delta_tea]

Before you do this, confirm with your DM that you don't automatically lose all you class features the moment you are hit with Dispel Magic! Your DM's mileage may vary.

Also, if you want free feats with a little less risk, consider purchasing a few castings of Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos and throwing some racial feats/magic location feats at it. Much more expensive, but the feats are permanent.

Looks like I need more permanent feat then. Which will make Archivist build tougher if not impossible. On the plus side, I can still use Mirror Magic to copy the warrior's melee feat without worrying to much about a Dispel Magic breaking my class levels.

[Delta_tea]

Feat List for AD Cleric 7 feat slots, 1 item feat
Flaw1 (Fussy): Extend Feat
Flaw2 (Cold-Blooded): Persistent Spell Feat
Human Bonus: DodgeFeat
AD Cleric1 Bonus Feat: Mobility Feat
Level 3: Combat Casting Feat
Otyugh Hole: 3000g - Iron Will for Mystic Wanderer
AD Cleric5 Bonus Feat: Endurance Feat
Level 6: Ocular Spell Feat

Archivist doesn't get the 2 free feat from AD Cleric. So if I delay picking up Ocular, I just need to shift one of the feat to an item.



Armor of Mobility (MIC) gives access to Mobility.
Armor of Mobility for a whopping 16,160g. This is effectively +4 AC armor and invalidates the Mystic Wanderer's armor which would have been +6 AC from Charisma (I have a lot of Charisma from a Turning Undead build). It also forces me to carry a 10% arcane spell failure chance from having leather armor on for those rare times I do use my Sorcerer magic.


Glory of the Divine (Su): A mystic wanderer who wears no armor gains a sacred (or profane, if her patron deity is evil) bonus to AC equal to her Charisma bonus (if any).

Archivist is heavy Int and I'll need to carry Wisdom unless I can find a way to fit in Academic Priest feat. However, I just noticed, its a level 1 feat!!! So I need to find yet another item to make this work. Any ideas that are within budget?


For the purpose of determining bonus divine spells per day and maximum divine spell level, your primary spellcasting ability is Intelligence. If you have more than one divine spellcasting class, the bonus applies to only one of those classes. Your spell save DCs are not affected by this change.

Special: You may only take this feat as a 1st-level character. If you take this feat more than once, it applies to a different divine spellcasting class each time. You may take this feat even if you have no divine spellcasting classes yet.

So now I'm invested 19160g out of my ECL 9 - 36,000g WBL. Unless anyone has ideas on how to do this cheaper? Archivist is a gold pit for picking up new spells, so the cheaper the better.

This setup definitely won't allow taking Precocious Apprentice feat anytime soon. So this direction seems like Mystic Theurge is out of the question for free Sorcerer levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Armor of Mobility for a whopping 16,160g. This is effectively +4 AC armor and invalidates the Mystic Wanderer's armor which would have been +6 AC from Charisma (I have a lot of Charisma from a Turning Undead build). It also forces me to carry a 10% arcane spell failure chance from having leather armor on for those rare times I do use my Sorcerer magic.


You can put armor abilities on Bracers of Armor too if you can't wear armor for some reason. The rule allowing that is in A&EG. Cost is the same (aside from not needing masterwork armor).
There's also several options for light armor with no ASF if that turns out to be an issue (thistledown padded from RotW for example).

[Anthrowhale]

AD Cleric5 Bonus Feat: Endurance Feat

This needs to be a metamagic feat (which is doable via reshuffling).


Armor of Mobility for a whopping 16,160g.

The Mobility enhancement (MIC page 13) is only +1, so this is a 4K investment on the base armor of your choice.


This is effectively +4 AC armor and invalidates the Mystic Wanderer's armor which would have been +6 AC from Charisma (I have a lot of Charisma from a Turning Undead build). It also forces me to carry a 10% arcane spell failure chance from having leather armor on for those rare times I do use my Sorcerer magic.

A&E cays you can place armor enhancements on bracers, so you can get bracers of armor+1+mobility for 4K. Since it isn't armor, the Mystic Wanderer AC bonus should work fine.



Archivist is heavy Int and I'll need to carry Wisdom unless I can find a way to fit in Academic Priest feat. However, I just noticed, its a level 1 feat!!! So I need to find yet another item to make this work. Any ideas that are within budget?

Take Church Inquisitor at 4th level and worship the right deity (even Archivists can worship a deity) to use the Substitute Domain spell to pick up Planning for a free Extend spell.

If you are using UA bloodlines, it's also pretty easy to pickup Dodge as a bonus feat.

The Edith build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?356451-Edith-the-E6-Persistomancer) used an eternal wand of Heroics.

[Delta_tea]

OK so getting closer!

Flaw 1: Dodge
Flaw 2: Academic Priest
Human: Combat Casting
Level 3: Endurance
Level 6: Persistent Spell

Bracers of Armor +1, with Mobility (1000g+3000g)
Otyugh Hole: 3000g (Iron Will for Mystic Wanderer)
Substitute Domain Spell: Planning Domain (Extent)(will need a CI level to do this)

Anyway to pull out Dodge, Combat Casting or Endurance into an item like Mobility?

[Anthrowhale]

Anyway to pull out Dodge, Combat Casting or Endurance into an item like Mobility?

Not in an always-on effect, as far as I know.

Academic Priest is a good feat granting (effectively) an extra spell/day, but it becomes a plausible hindrance once you can cast (Extended) Owl's Insight which enables inflating Wisdom by 10+ for the purpose of memorizing spells. Ocular Spell might be a good alternative, as it enables you to use a lesser metamagic rod of chain spell (Complete Arcane), which is great for party buffing. Potentially, you could go with Academic Priest now and use retraining rules from PHBII to swap later.

Dodge could be picked up via an intermediate or major Devil (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#devil) or Fire Elemental (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#elementalFire) bloodline. The rules here are iffy for many DMs since bloodlines are almost freebie power.

For Endurance, you could potentially backstory spellcasting services (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to have someone cast Unfailing Endurance (mentioned by sleepypheonixx) before level 7, pick up a level of Spelldancer, then maintain it yourself similar to Substitute Domain[Planning]. If dispel removes your access to 4th level spells, you could have an emergency scroll or two available.

For Combat Casting, the only semi-permanent approach I know is Duskblade 2. And for completeness, Pugilist Fighter 1 (Dragon #310) could provide both Endurance and Dodge. Neither of these are recommended as they lose spell advancement.

You'll also want to look into raising caster level (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level) to resist dispelling. Hymn of Praise from a divine bard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) is a great for an archivist. A bead of good karma is also excellent as soon as you can afford it. There are a few other ways to protect against dispels (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?69571-Protecting-Against-Dispel).

Edit: One more for completeness---the Gheden template in Dragon #313 provides endurance for LA+1. Not recommended unless you can buy off or ignore.

[Rebel7284]

Shadahkar's Swift Wind may be helpful

[Anthrowhale]

Shadahkar's Swift Wind may be helpful

Nice---always on Endurance for 8350gp. Dragon #325 page 75-76.

[Delta_tea]

Well I feel silly. I forgot about the normal level 1 feat slot... Guess it all works now. lol.

[Delta_tea]

Shadahkar's Swift Wind may be helpful

Nice---always on Endurance for 8350gp. Dragon #324 page 75-76.

Agree, that's actually really nice for plugging that hole!
Shardahkar's Swift Wind

+10 extra feet to base movement
Endurance and Run feat
-2 Dexterity
8350gp, weight 1 lb.

I think that's a +2 ((1000g+1000g)*4) plus masterwork boots (350g)? Maybe the +10 movement is offset by the -2 Dexterity?
Would it be cheaper as a Custom item? Something like +1 (1000g*4) with mastework (350g)? Don't really need Run feat or more movement (persisting Swift Haste after all).

4350g seems in line (or a little high) compared to with something like:
Sandals of the Vagabond (CC) 4000g

+2 luck on initiative checks
immunity to exhaustion
part of a set bonus

So since we have this nice new item (Shardahkar's Swift Wind), I'm going to try for more crazy!

1-3 Archivist
4-6 Mystic Theurge (this unlocks Sorcerer 2 spells)
7 Mystic Wanderer
8 Spelldancer

Since MT doesn't have Diplomacy, I need to make it a class skill to reach MW by level 7.
Oddly enough, Marshal Study feat White Raven, gives Deplomany as a class skill! As an added benefit, I can pick up Bolstering Voice (another party buff).

Church Inquisitor doesn't mesh well with MT. I need 3 ranks of MT to reach Sorcerer 2 spells. CI would leave me one short. But it has the Diplomacy skill to reach MW. Another downside, was waiting until level 4 to take CI, which means I can't Substitute Domain into Planning (for Extend feat). This forces Persistent into the level 6 feat slot. This is bad for Ocular, because it needs 4-ranks of Knowledge Dungeoneering so it can't be a level 1 or earlier slot. It could go into the 3rd level feat slot, however MT needs Precocious Apprentice feat to work and that takes the level 3 feat slot. So Ocular is going to have to wait for 9th level (next level). But I get access to more spells from the arcane side.

What I'm thinking on feat mix:

Flaw 1: Dodge
Flaw 2: Combat Casting
Human: Extend (Earlier allows higher level feat later)
Level 1: Persistent
Level 3: Precocious Apprentice (Gives 2nd level arcane spell for MT)
Level 6: Marshal Study (White Raven/Diplomacy/Bolstering Voice)
Level 9: Ocular (waiting)


Bracers of Armor +1, with Mobility (1000g+3000g)
Otyugh Hole: 3000g (Iron Will for Mystic Wanderer)
Shadahkar's Swift Wing: Endurance & Run feat: 8350g

Now the silliness. Since I got a White Raven maneuver out of Marshal Study feat, I can pick up a ToB item, like the Crown of White Ravens (3000g) and get White Raven Tactics once each encounter. Seems like a nice buff option. Worst case, I just tap the Wizard and have her blast again (she has a silly high initiative mod).

So in summary: Divine caster 8 (4th level spells), Arcane caster 4 (2nd level spells), two ToB Maneuvers, no chest armor needed thanks to MW

Spent 18350g

Additional thoughts:
Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance (8000g): +5 to all knowledge checks
Tome of Worldly Memory (1500g): +5 to 3/day knowledge checks
Skill trick, Collector of Stories (2 skill pts): +5 knowledge check per encounter
-Dark Knowledge (4 times a day) - Tactics: with automatic 15+ will have +1 bonus to attack rolls, +2 is likely (DC25) , +3 rare (DC35) (for allies)

Horn of Plenty (12,000g) gives Heroes' Feast spell for 12 people
-Downside, only 12 hours and expensive. Upside, cures stuff, immune to poison, temp HP, +1 will saves
-Does this sound worth while?

Sound good? Anything out-of-line? Any better ideas? Thank you again for being so helpful!!!

[Anthrowhale]

...

A few thoughts.

I'd avoid custom magic items if possible. Many DMs are fully aware that such rules are both subject to approval and a source of potential abuse (like always-on Truestrike).
Archivist gets all knowledge skills in class, so Ocular Spell at level 1 should be no problem.
It's not super-clear to me that L2 sorcerer spells are meaningful. As an Archivist, you can get access to almost any spell anyways since nearly all of them are on some divine list, domain list, or can be made so. For example, go be friends with an Arcane Disciple Cleric. If I wanted L2 arcane spells explicitly, I'd take Church Inquisitor and use Substitute Domain[Spell] to leverage Anyspell. It's even possible to use this for access to Extend Spell _and_ arcane spells if you can find a deity with both Planning and Spell domains. Given that you already have access, this is about slots. Extra slots are ok, but I don't see how they are a game-changer. I'm also not quite understanding where you are getting sorcerer casting from.
White Raven Tactics is quite potent as a combat option. It also fits the 'buff' theme if you apply it to party members.
There are two exceptional cleric spells for pegging skill checks---Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight.
Overall, I'd adjust things to start with Spelldancer. It's a game-changer, so it makes a big difference compared to adventuring until you advance a level.

Compare with something like:
Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1
Flaw 1: Dodge
Flaw 2: Combat Casting
Human: Ocular Spell
1. Chain Spell
3. ??
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6. Persistent Spell
Bracers+1+Mobility: Mobility
Shardakhar's Swift Wind: Endurance
<spend money to pick up all the unique non-cleric spells you want>

[Mordante]

Read the handbooks on War Weaver and Inspire Courage optimization.

I was trying to find a good War Weaver handbook. But all of the ones I found were really badly written, the layout made my eyes bleed. Do you know if there are any good War Weaver handbooks?

[Delta_tea]

A few thoughts.
I'd avoid custom magic items if possible. Many DMs are fully aware that such rules are both subject to approval and a source of potential abuse (like always-on Truestrike).
Fair point. I was just pinching pennies without thinking of the DM.


Archivist gets all knowledge skills in class, so Ocular Spell at level 1 should be no problem.
I always thought you had to have all of the pre-reqs in the level before you took a feat or class. Maybe that only applies to classes and not feat? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to move it up earlier.


It's not super-clear to me that L2 sorcerer spells are meaningful. As an Archivist, you can get access to almost any spell anyways since nearly all of them are on some divine list, domain list, or can be made so. For example, go be friends with an Arcane Disciple Cleric. If I wanted L2 arcane spells explicitly, I'd take Church Inquisitor and use Substitute Domain[Spell] to leverage Anyspell. It's even possible to use this for access to Extend Spell _and_ arcane spells if you can find a deity with both Planning and Spell domains. Given that you already have access, this is about slots. Extra slots are ok, but I don't see how they are a game-changer. I'm also not quite understanding where you are getting sorcerer casting from.
I ate the LA cost and have the Dragonspawn template. It comes with 1 level of Sorcerer as part of the template. So far Sorcerer has been nice for tactical flexibility. For example, I have a wand chamber with Eternal Wand Wings of Cover in in it. Amazing for avoiding directed spells and the occasional melee hit or AoO. The only reason I'm playing with idea of more Sorcerer is that it would get me more spell slots for Wings of Cover and maybe some offensive buff spells like Haste (at 3rd level spells). Anyspell is problematic... I've talked with my DM before and if I take it, I'd be forced to gather spells like a Wizard which would actually be very hard considering we're in kind of a bleak place. I'd also have to run a seperate Spellbook for those Wizard spells. I already have a Sorcerer level, just seems easier to leverage that and not deal with spell hunting. He's been really nice about allowing Knowstone (Dragon #333) which does allow access to several more spells. Also, it's just more spell slots. I'm probably going to end up persisting most of Divine slots.

I am looking into the Prayerbook Relic to help get more spells. But I just started reading about that. Also will probably buy a Aureon's Spellshard or Boccob's Blessed Book to save gold on scribing spells. That reminds me, I need to look into Unseen Crafter spell and Quill of Scribing. I may also need a void space container to allow writing to be done in peace. So much to think about!


White Raven Tactics is quite potent as a combat option. It also fits the 'buff' theme if you apply it to party members.
I really is! But it doesn't make a lot of since if I don't need Diplomacy from Martial Study feat. I randomly came across that path by a need to make MT work to reach MW. It's hard to justify a feat+3000g just for those maneuvers.


There are two exceptional cleric spells for pegging skill checks---Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight.
Agree and there's actually a few more! The reason I have items, I may not get a chance to pre-cast before the stuff hits the fan. All of my Cleric-like characters have always had bad initiative bonuses because they're MAD. I suppose I could take Quicken metamagic and pop a Swift action - GoA and then do my rolls. I'll need to reserve several of my 2nd level spell slots to make that work...


Overall, I'd adjust things to start with Spelldancer. It's a game-changer, so it makes a big difference compared to adventuring until you advance a level.
I definitely agree Spelldancer is a game changer. Which is why I'm super excited to try this out. I'm just trying to figure out what do with this character after hitting Spelldancer. More Archivist levels don't seem that amazing (still better than boring Cleric). Church Inquisitor was just a stepping stone up to Mystic Wanderer and a Domain. Mystic Theurge at least give more spell power and spell slots while continuing to advance Divine. I suppose Arcane Hierophant or Fochlucan Lyrist would be better. But it's more gymnastics to figure out how to qualify.

I suppose I could try to make it melee capable. But that feels like stealing from the melee already in the party. I'm trying to empower everyone, not be an outright stealer of the spotlight. Plus, this build doesn't have a lot of HP to play with. A lot of the ability points are pushed into Int and Wis. I suppose Polymorph could enable it. But again, I'm trying to share. :-)

I had played with the idea of Dweomerkeeper. But with free metamagic from Spelldancer, there's not much point in it, except to get material free spell casts. Which would probably get a book thrown at me as soon as I tried it with a meaningful spell like Wish in several more levels.



Compare with something like:
Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1
Flaw 1: Dodge
Flaw 2: Combat Casting
Human: Ocular Spell
1. Chain Spell
3. ??
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6. Persistent Spell
Bracers+1+Mobility: Mobility
Shardakhar's Swift Wind: Endurance
<spend money to pick up all the unique non-cleric spells you want>

Good point on money. I'm going to be spending a ton on spells... I suppose at some point I should get Leadership to have NPCs make me scrolls. Thanks for the ideas. I'll definitely think about making this more simple. Having Ocular (Touch spells can be Presisted) and Quicken (Swift Summon Monster/Animal) would give me a lot more options. I'll probably run out of spell slots at this rate.

[Anthrowhale]

I definitely agree Spelldancer is a game changer. Which is why I'm super excited to try this out. I'm just trying to figure out what do with this character after hitting Spelldancer. More Archivist levels don't seem that amazing (still better than boring Cleric). Church Inquisitor was just a stepping stone up to Mystic Wanderer and a Domain. Mystic Theurge at least give more spell power and spell slots while continuing to advance Divine. I suppose Arcane Hierophant or Fochlucan Lyrist would be better. But it's more gymnastics to figure out how to qualify.

You might take another level of Spelldancer for evasion. The second level of Mystic Wanderer is also ok, as it grants a familiar. At higher levels a dip in Contemplative is always nice. Once you have 9th level spells, a level or two of Hierophant can also make sense.

If you want lots of power, then Hathran 5 is another game changer since you can circle magic your spells beyond dispellability. You would juggle your feats to pick up Ethran at level 1 and Leadership at level 6, delaying Chain Spell until level 9.

For a less obtrusive build, Divine Oracle 10 might be good. You can pay the feat tax via Frog God's Fane and the Immune to Surprise capstone is pretty nifty.

A different approach would be picking up a level of Sacred Exorcist and using it to fuel a divine feat. Divine Spellpower for example is immediately applicable to buffs.

Dweomerkeeper is a fine class, but if you can't leverage Supernatural Spell it seems less appealing.


Good point on money. I'm going to be spending a ton on spells... I suppose at some point I should get Leadership to have NPCs make me scrolls. Thanks for the ideas. I'll definitely think about making this more simple. Having Ocular (Touch spells can be Presisted) and Quicken (Swift Summon Monster/Animal) would give me a lot more options. I'll probably run out of spell slots at this rate.
Quicken doesn't work on Summon Monster since it's a 1 round cast.

[Delta_tea]

You might take another level of Spelldancer for evasion. The second level of Mystic Wanderer is also ok, as it grants a familiar. At higher levels a dip in Contemplative is always nice. Once you have 9th level spells, a level or two of Hierophant can also make sense.

If you want lots of power, then Hathran 5 is another game changer since you can circle magic your spells beyond dispellability. You would juggle your feats to pick up Ethran at level 1 and Leadership at level 6, delaying Chain Spell until level 9.

For a less obtrusive build, Divine Oracle 10 might be good. You can pay the feat tax via Frog God's Fane and the Immune to Surprise capstone is pretty nifty.

A different approach would be picking up a level of Sacred Exorcist and using it to fuel a divine feat. Divine Spellpower for example is immediately applicable to buffs.

Dweomerkeeper is a fine class, but if you can't leverage Supernatural Spell it seems less appealing.

Quicken doesn't work on Summon Monster since it's a 1 round cast.


Maybe if I buff enough Dex, Evasion could be useful. Right now, it's one of my lower stats since the character is MAD.
I'm debating the familiar from Mystic Wanderer. In theory I could trade it away for something useful like Blood of Siberys or Aligned Spellcaster. Keeping a familiar just sounds like a liability from experience loss if it somehow dies.
Hathran is amazing. But it would require female character (already male) and picking a deity which would limit my domain choices if I end up with a class that grants a domain. Archivist doesn't need a deity and by not having one, in theory I can substitute domain through all of them picking up spells for my Prayer Book.
Divine Oracle doesn't seem that exciting. I'm not really sure how to use it beyond being passive defensive. The capstone is nice, but I doubt I'll reach that during this module.
I've toyed with the idea of Sacred Exorcist just to get some Turn Undead charges. I'll think more on it. I suppose I could always just Heighten spells as well since Spelldancer makes it free.
Correct Quicken doesn't directly work. I look it up. I would need Rapid Spell Feat to make Summoning a Full-action. In addition, if I Quicken on Rapid, that would make it a swift action. Which would still be neat for dropping a Summons onto the battlefield to help with control.

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe if I buff enough Dex, Evasion could be useful. Right now, it's one of my lower stats since the character is MAD.

Insightful reflexes should help here, if you can spare a feat. Also note that reflex is a good save for spelldancer and mystic wanderer.


I'm debating the familiar from Mystic Wanderer. In theory I could trade it away for something useful like Blood of Siberys or Aligned Spellcaster. Keeping a familiar just sounds like a liability from experience loss if it somehow dies.

I don't believe an ACF allows you to do this.

Note though that a familiar is no more fragile than you--just cast Shield Other on it. There are also a range of nice little bonuses that apply even if the familiar stays in your backpack forever.


Divine Oracle doesn't seem that exciting. I'm not really sure how to use it beyond being passive defensive. The capstone is nice, but I doubt I'll reach that during this module.

Yeah, it's all passive, but a bonus domain (L1), super-evasion (L2), Uncanny dodge (L4+L6), and immune to Surprise (L10) are plausibly better than 10 levels of Archivist. Archivist isn't bad though--you pick up a feat and some more dark knowledge uses.

Another possibility given your setup is Geomancer, which allows conversion of spells from divine to arcane (unclear how that can be leveraged), and a bunch of physical enhancements.

[Seward]

Honestly at ECL7 it is hard to beat your basic bard, especially with just a splash of noncore (noncore stuff listed in italics, below.

No ACFs etc, just plain Bard. If you want an ACF, that's cool, have fun, won't make it better or worse as a buffer. Attributes should be whatever you want. I actually like 14s in lots of stats for this one, so 28 point buy would be

str10 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha15 statbumps to cha Fight with a spiked gauntlet and maybe a shortbow or some such if you insist on having weapons for emergencies or for show. Decent reflex save, moderate fort/will saves. Good number of skill points You need to get bonus spells on schedule via mix of statbumps/gear but that isn't hard for a bard. Race can be whatever LA0 you want, only 2 feats locked down so take the other 1-2 for taste (improved init is solid if you have nothing else you like better).

19k Gear = mithril chain shirt+1, mithril buckler+1, badge of valor, amulet health2, vest of resistance1, cloak of charisma2, handy haversack for scroll management, spend remaining ~3k WBL on scrolls (you can't use wands as reliably as you normally would for reasons I'll describe later)

2 feats spent on Melodic Casting and Subsonics. Subsonics lets you maintain a bardsong without anybody noticing. 3.5 lets you maintain a bardsong all day if you want. Melodic casting lets you speak, cast spells, cast spells off scrolls or use command-word activated magic items while maintaining a bardsong. You can not, however use wands while maintaining a bardsong so your consumable spellcasting will be limited to scrolls. Keep a hand free and a handy haversack ready.

Spells known includes Inspirational Boost (a L1 spell). Make sure you have slots to use it 3x/day.

What this means is your party always has a +3to hit +3 damage +3 vs fear inspire courage running 24x7, as long as you maintain a performance. I recommend "Perform Percussion" so you can just tap your feet or rap your spoon or whatever, all subsonic so not annoying to people around you.

If you are stunned, silenced, knocked out or whatever you have to recast your inspire courage, but it'll last 5 rounds and hopefully your party can mess up whomever did that bad thing to you. Hopefully that won't happen to you more than 2x a day, although another reason you may need to recast the inspire courage is if you use something like the Fascinate/Suggestion effect etc or inspire competence or something similar. Try not to do that if you're out of boosts for your inspire courage from item+L1 spell.

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Ok the party will already think you are great, but there's more you can do in the buffing role with your limited spells known.

Level1 - 4known, 4(5 if cha 20) per day, 1 is Inspirational Boost.
You want spells that you don't need to cast unless you absolutely need them since you want to reserve most of these slots for more inspirational boost castings.

Remove Fear is a strong pick for a support spell known. You may need it to work on multiple party members (it scales by level) and you may need to chase somebody fleeing to get it into range, so you don't want it on a scroll for that reason either, plus range is longer if you cast it.

Feather Fall is a strong pick for the same reasons. 1 target per level, range you can do it is based on level and as an immediate action spell it is not at all useful on a scroll.

Get Silent Image on a scroll, and anything else you like from the L1 list (I favor Unseen Servant, for example) L1 scrolls are cheap, take anything you find useful that isn't swift/immediate action and that your GM says is available for purchase.

For your final spell, strong arguments can be made for Improvisation, Swift Invisibility or Swift Expeditious Retreat. Just don't overuse them. If you must have a combat/utility spell at this tier, go with silent image. Of the lot, if your role is support/buffing, I like swift xp retreat. Again that's how you chase down somebody to stick remove fear, or to run to the guy who needs Heroism or whatever, but try not to need it. The spell is there if you miscalculate, and if the party doesn't have haste running.

Level2 4 known, 3/day.

I think a buffer should really have Heroism. It does for skills and saves what Inspire Courage does for attacks and damage, lasts 10m/level, good to make a Face better, or a Scout sneakier, or a trapfinder able to clear an area, or for when somebody is rolling fort saves to recover lost levels or poison or some such thing that stacks with most other saving throw boosters. Use it only when needed, not routinely due to limited slots, but this is a top tier spell for your role.

Silence, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Delay poison, Pyrotechnics, maybe Major Image. You need these on scrolls. You probably don't want them in your spell known list, they work fine from an action economy/effect standpoint at CL3 with save of 13. Of the lot, Glitterdust might benefit from more levels as duration is short but at CL7 don't count on actually blinding many enemies with it. A big problem is it tempts you to use it and burn out your L2 slots, so the gp cost of a scroll helps you behave better.

Instead what you want is Calm Emotions This is also a will-save stopper if you can maintain concentration (which as a buffer, isn't as much of a loss for the party, trading your actions for 1-2 enemies is a win, and your inspire courage etc can be maintained freely). Why you actually want it though is confusion defense. Cast on a confused party member, it lets them take any action except attack. So a confused druid can summon monsters all day, very calmly. A barbarian can be moved away from the party member he's about to pulverize and maybe near a dumb enemy that will attack him (releasing the calmness and focusing the confused barbarian on that schmuck). It also is an area fear-canceling effect and a bunch of other things that involve emotions, and I can't understate how helpful it can be to calm down a mob of commoners or animals about to stampede or similar. But it is versatile and the higher save you can impose will make it work better, and in a pinch can be used as an actual combat spell vs low will save, living opponents. But you won't be tempted to use it unless it is needed.

Tongues This is super expensive on a scroll, it is a L3-4 spell for others and as somebody who is probably the party face, you want to be able to communicate when you need to (and if somebody else is the face, cast it on them). As a bard you probably speak a lot of languages so you won't need it all the time, but 10min/level duration means you'll be able to make your pitch when you need to.

For your final spell Harmonic Chorus is probably the best choice. Boost a primary caster by +2 levels when they're casting their hour/level buffs. In addition to boosting effect by 2 hours, you can hit breakpoints on things like Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Barkskin, Shield of Faith, whatever earlier, and that can be decisive. In combat use is rarer but it ALSO boost save DC by 2 and can help stick that key dispel magic, or banishment spell, or maybe give your blaster a third scorching ray or add 2d6 to their maximized whatever. Think of it as inspire courage for spellcasters. It can tip the balance and be worth a precious L2 slot in certain fights. It does require concentration to maintain but for a support/buffing character, supercharging your best primary caster is rarely a bad use of your actions if nothing else more pressing is going on.

Level 3 2 spells known, 1 slot/day
Haste full stop. I don't think this one needs further explanation. For one fight your martials will run wild, adding extra attacks etc to your +3/+3 inspire courage. Or you can all run away faster etc. You will want to use it too often to make it affordable to put on a scroll.

The second spell at L7 is harder, because it's going to be something you need even more than haste when you need it, yet can live without if Haste has already been cast that day. Also something you don't need so infrequently it fits better on a scroll (such as invis 10' rad, major image, gaseous form, clairvoyance and similar). Get your Dim Door scroll before filling out remaining WBL on useful L3 spells. Done? Ok, here's my best choice for the second one, and it will be controversial.

Allegro swift action, give everybody +30 movement for 1 minute/level.

What Seward? Are you nuts? It's just Haste, only crappier, even if it lasts 10x as long.

This is an action economy thing. Right now all your swift actions only help yourself. Well, sometimes your whole party needs to be more mobile than you expected and you don't want to blow a standard action because THEY will all move to safety and you will be an action (or more if they took run actions) behind. Or you're concentrating on something important, like a harmonic chorus. Or you need it to work on everybody, like an entire courtyard full of children that need to run away before the place gets hit by a tidal wave. 1 character/level isn't gonna cut it, but 20' burst centered on you with a swift action while you do rapid diplomacy to get those kids running the right way makes you a big damn hero (perhaps with calm emotions cast on the kid as your std action).

Last time I playtested a bard character I tried it out. It was surprisingly useful, and stayed useful well after Haste had mostly passed its sellby date (due to martials all having boots of haste).

So in one std action you can help your party win a fight. In a swift action, plus maybe calm emotion, you can redirect a mob and double its speed.....including our mounts, pets and party members.

Anyway that's my 2 cents. Just be a bard. You'll be a badass buffer, providing a constant +3/3 hit/damage while conscious and having lots of cool other ways to make yourself or anybody else in the party better at what they do, plus some effects nobody but a bard can do.

Stick with bard to level 8 to get another level of Inspire Courage (some other bard abilities or acfs have even number breakpoints, and you'll hit a BAB breakpoint and +1 to 2 saves at L8, it is a good exit point). Me, I'd go Lyric Thaumaturge for a couple levels then consider whether you want to stay there or go Sublime Chord for more powerful spells. Don't forget to pick up Hero's feast if the game lasts long enough for you to get it.