Has anyone tried armorer/echo knight?

[Spiritchaser]

So, Ancestral Guardian/Echo knight is awesome, at least up to mid level (I have never seen one over… 12 I think)

But what about a different approach to accomplish something similar?

Has anyone tried a build that takes advantage of thunder gauntlets attacking from the echo’s space?

Throw in sentinel because sentinel echo is too good to pass up, go Int>Con>Dex with medium armour or Int>Con>Str with heavy armour, either should work just fine (I’m partial to Dex, but whatever)

Seems like it might be a bit slow to start, probably go armorer first to get those gauntlets quickly, and you want the Int attack bonus on the gauntlets, take artificer to 5 for extra attack then come fully online at 8. Switching at 3 means you get gauntlets through echo at 6 but means waiting until 8 for extra attack, probably not a great plan.

Probably don’t take dual wielding for the extra attack, your bonus action is going to be spoken for a lot and you probably want a shield (though once sentinel/echo gets going you could think about swapping…)

Anyway… yeah, has anyone seen a build like this? How did it work out?

[ZRN]

So, Ancestral Guardian/Echo knight is awesome, at least up to mid level (I have never seen one over… 12 I think)

But what about a different approach to accomplish something similar?

Has anyone tried a build that takes advantage of thunder gauntlets attacking from the echo’s space?

Throw in sentinel because sentinel echo is too good to pass up, go Int>Con>Dex with medium armour or Int>Con>Str with heavy armour, either should work just fine (I’m partial to Dex, but whatever)

Seems like it might be a bit slow to start, probably go armorer first to get those gauntlets quickly, and you want the Int attack bonus on the gauntlets, take artificer to 5 for extra attack then come fully online at 8. Switching at 3 means you get gauntlets through echo at 6 but means waiting until 8 for extra attack, probably not a great plan.

Probably don’t take dual wielding for the extra attack, your bonus action is going to be spoken for a lot and you probably want a shield (though once sentinel/echo gets going you could think about swapping…)

Anyway… yeah, has anyone seen a build like this? How did it work out?

I feel like the really cool part of the ancestral guardian debuff is that the target gets disadvantage AND deals half damage even if he hits. Just granting disadvantage seems less worthwhile. Especially since this means you don't get to use greatweapons, and you don't get Reckless Attack or rage, meaning you do a LOT less damage and you don't get damage resistance yourself. It just seems like you're a lot less effective at dealing damage, TAKING (less) damage, and preventing damage to your teammates.

Maybe I'm being unimaginative, but what benefit are you getting from Armorer over Barbarian that makes up for these disadvantages?

[Spiritchaser]

I feel like the really cool part of the ancestral guardian debuff is that the target gets disadvantage AND deals half damage even if he hits. Just granting disadvantage seems less worthwhile. Especially since this means you don't get to use greatweapons, and you don't get Reckless Attack or rage, meaning you do a LOT less damage and you don't get damage resistance yourself. It just seems like you're a lot less effective at dealing damage, TAKING (less) damage, and preventing damage to your teammates.

Maybe I'm being unimaginative, but what benefit are you getting from Armorer over Barbarian that makes up for these disadvantages?

Well, for starters, AG is limited in applying the debuff to a single creature. Artificer can easily hit two, and with some work and favourable circumstances maybe 3. Are you fighting lots of little things? Artificer looks better. One big one? Not as good, but actually, still pretty decent.

There is also the oft mentioned limited rages per day. Now, personally I haven’t seen much of an issue with this, usually a player can pick and choose the cases where they rage to suit the circumstances. IMO You won’t need all your control in every fight, and you usually have enough… however, based on other comments, there are most certainly players who feel that an AG/EK doesn’t have enough rages to do it’s job often enough that it’s a serious problem. It’s a problem this character doesn’t have

Spell casting is a big deal. Even a half caster brings a lot to the table <edit:> even if you never go further than rope trick, web and faerie fire, it’s still pretty good. Throw in hypnotic pattern here and there… seems good. Probably don’t risk haste. You’re going to get hit a lot, even with your THP

Infusions are a big deal. You can support your party pretty well with the right toys.

Sure the dpr isn’t close, but that was never the important thing with an AG/EK in the first place, it’s mobility, control and debuff, and you can do that… better and worse, with less damage and much more support.

At least that’s what it looks like from 30 000 feet.

[ZRN]

Well, for starters, AG is limited in applying the debuff to a single creature. Artificer can easily hit two, and with some work and favourable circumstances maybe 3. Are you fighting lots of little things? Artificer looks better. One big one? Not as good, but actually, still pretty decent.

There is also the oft mentioned limited rages per day. Now, personally I haven’t seen much of an issue with this, usually a player can pick and choose the cases where they rage to suit the circumstances. IMO You won’t need all your control in every fight, and you usually have enough… however, based on other comments, there are most certainly players who feel that an AG/EK doesn’t have enough rages to do it’s job often enough that it’s a serious problem. It’s a problem this character doesn’t have

Spell casting is a big deal. Even a half caster brings a lot to the table <edit:> even if you never go further than rope trick, web and faerie fire, it’s still pretty good. Throw in hypnotic pattern here and there… seems good. Probably don’t risk haste. You’re going to get hit a lot, even with your THP

Infusions are a big deal. You can support your party pretty well with the right toys.

Sure the dpr isn’t close, but that was never the important thing with an AG/EK in the first place, it’s mobility, control and debuff, and you can do that… better and worse, with less damage and much more support.

At least that’s what it looks like from 30 000 feet.

I guess the idea is to stop Fighter at 3 and keep going up with Artificer after that? Because if so I can see the appeal. The LudicSavant Echo/Guardian build stops barbarian at 3 and goes the rest of the way in fighter; comparing what you get from levels 1-3, artificer seems a lot less appealing to me. (Like, there's no way 3 level 1 spells a day goes further than 3 rages, does it?)

[Spiritchaser]

I guess the idea is to stop Fighter at 3 and keep going up with Artificer after that? Because if so I can see the appeal. The LudicSavant Echo/Guardian build stops barbarian at 3 and goes the rest of the way in fighter; comparing what you get from levels 1-3, artificer seems a lot less appealing to me. (Like, there's no way 3 level 1 spells a day goes further than 3 rages, does it?)

I think you almost have to limit fighter, but I’m not certain

My first thought would be artificer to 5, fighter to 3, artificer X

Edit: again, I’d love to hear from someone who has tried this

[Trake]

Just joined the forum, and I now this is a bit of a necro, but I'm planning on playing this combo in my current campaign. About to hit lvl 4 (Artificer), so still have a bit to go until it's fully online, but will definitely keep the thread updated if anyone is still interested!

[Arkhios]

Haven't tried one, but having played an echo knight, I can say it could work. Popping up your echo to deliver your punches at a distance, once extra attack comes in, at least two targets with one Attack action, with manifest echo a third one, while yourself staying relatively safe at a short range (since the echo can't stay farther than 30 feet away from you, at least not in combat). The echo is relatively easy to hit, though, and once it goes *poof* you lose the edge of having the Sentinel proc at your echo's location. However, it's a gamble, really, whether it's smarter to pop the echo or yourself first. That said, every tactic, good or bad, is a gamble.

My personal opinion is that there's more value in the Thunder Gauntlet's rider effect itself, than in having the Sentinel. You can make only one opportunity attack per turn, after all, and technically the echo is part of 'you', so it could be seen as a fair game for being attacked without the rider's disadvantage. Sentinel is a good bonus, but not something I'd grieve for not having.

[truemane]

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