Which would be a better tank?

[werescythe]

I'm just wondering, which of these would be a better defensive tank? An ancestral guardian barbarian, a conquest paladin or a conquest paladin with a 1 level dip into Hexblade.

[OldTrees1]

What type of tanking are you prioritizing? Attacks vs your allies, or saves your allies need to make?

Personally I love Aura of Protection (Paladin of Ancients is my pick), however Ancestral Guardian is really good at defending your allies against attacks.

[RogueJK]

Conquest Paladin.

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian has a great tanking mechanism, but it can only affect one enemy at a time.

Conquest Paladin can debuff, scare off, or outright shut down multiple enemies at a time. Plus they can boost nearby allies' saves.


To Hexblade or not to Hexblade can be a tough choice. Conquest Paladins want to focus on CHA, so Hexblade 1 is a natural fit and can work well. But they also want to get to Paladin 9 ASAP for their Aura of Protection, Aura of Conquest, and access to the Fear spell. So I lean slightly towards No Hexblade, especially if you're wanting to focus more on effective tanking than having effective attacks. And it lets you wield 2H weapons, unlike a Hexblade who's limited to 1H weapons.

Something like this for a tanky 2H Conquest Paladin with Point Buy:
Variant Human Conquest Paladin
STR 15+1
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
ASIs: Polearm Master at 1st, Sentinel at 4th, +2 CHA at 8th, and +2 STR at 12th.
Fighting Style: Defense or Blessed Warrior (Guidance, Toll the Dead)
Wear Plate Armor and use a Glaive.

You can shut down an enemy that tries to approach within 10' of you, or that tries to get past you to attack a squishier ally, thanks to PAM's OA on approach plus Sentinel's movement halting. And Sentinel also lets you use your Reaction to make an attack to punish an enemy that tries to attack an ally within your 10' reach.


Or maybe consider Conquest Paladin 9 then dip Hexblade. For a tanky 1H Conquest Paladin eventually going Hexblade, I'd consider something like this with Point Buy:
Variant Human Conquest Paladin 9 -> Hexblade 1 or 2 -> Paladin X
STR 15+1
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
ASIs: Shield Master at 1st, +2 CHA at 4th, Warcaster at 8th, and either +2 CHA or Inspiring Leader at 12th.
Fighting Style: Interception or Protection
Wear Plate Armor and use a Longsword/Warhammer/Battleaxe and Shield.

This one's even a bit tankier than the 2H build. Shield Master helps shore up your otherwise middling DEX save (normally just +3 with your Aura, it's now +5 with Shield Master in some cases), and allows you to do fun stuff like BA shove Prone a Frightened enemy within your Aura of Conquest who then can't stand up due to having a speed of 0. Interception/Protection lets you use your Reaction to protect a nearby ally with either Disadvantage or Damage Reduction, so in addition to 15' Aura of Protection your allies are further incentivized to stick next to you. At Level 10, dipping Hexblade 1 gets you +1 to Attack/Damage from switching to CHA, plus Hexblade's Curse, a better ranged damage option than Javelins with Eldritch Blast, access to Booming Blade OAs via Warcaster to punish/dissuade enemies from leaving your reach, and a short rest recharging Shield/Smite spell slot. Consider taking a 2nd Hexblade level for a second short rest spell slot and a couple Invocations, like Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast.



The newer iteration of Metallic Dragonborn from Fizban's also makes a nice Conquest Paladin, with its multiple racial breath weapon options, access to the Dragon Fear half-feat for another breath weapon, and the revamped ability to substitute an attack for a breath weapon effect (rather than it taking your entire Action).

That could look something like:
Metallic Dragonborn Conquest Paladin
STR 15+1
DEX 8
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14+1
Fighting Style: Interception or Protection
ASIs: Dragon Fear (+1 CHA) at 4th, +2 CHA at 8th, then +2 STR or CON or CHA at 12th.
Wear plate armor, and wield either a 2H weapon or a 1H Weapon and Shield.

Not quite as tanky as either of the prior Conquest builds, but potentially a more well-rounded character thanks to its four different AoE breath weapons with varying effects: You have AoE damage capabilities with your CON-based Elemental breath. You have a AoE save-or-suck option with your CON-based Enervation breath. You have the AoE ability to Prone enemies with your CON-based Repelling breath (and remember that enemies who are affected by your Aura of Conquest have 0 speed and can't stand up from prone). And you have an additional way to inflict Frightened to further trigger your Aura of Conquest with your even larger AoE CHA-based Dragon Fear feat breath.

You can use your Elemental or Fear Breath proficiency bonus times per day, and Enervation or Repelling Breath once per day.

But since you'd need Warcaster to be able to cast Warlock spells while wielding a Weapon+Shield and Hex Warrior can't be used on 2H weapons, either way it's not a good candidate for a Hexblade dip.

[animorte]

Alternatively Crown Paladin forces everything that fails its save to stay within 30 ft. of you. So as long as your allies are at range, pretty solid.

Yes, I agree that Paladin overall is probably a better tank. Auras are not to be underestimated, that and the additional protective spell options.

[werescythe]

Admittedly I tend to lean toward Dex builds because I'm not a huge fan of armor outside of light armor. Which is one reason why I thought Ancestral Guardian barbarian might be fun.

[RogueJK]

You can do a Conquest DEXadin... As I described in your other Dhampir Conquest DEXadin thread from yesterday: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645440-Advice-for-a-Conquest-Dexadin

The only differences would be that if you're wanting to focus on tanking with a DEXadin rather than attacking, take something like the Interception/Protection Fighting Style in place of the Defense/Dueling/Blind Fighting I had suggested in the other thread.

So something like this:
Dhampir Conquest Paladin
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2
Paladin Skills: Persuasion, Intimidation
Background Skills: Deception, Perception
Dhampir Racial Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth
ASIs: +2 DEX at 4, +1 CHA Half-Feat at 8 (like Skill Expert or Fey Touched), then +2 DEX or CHA at 12.
Fighting Style: Interception or Protection
Wear Studded Leather or a Breastplate, wield a Rapier and Shield, and keep a Longbow for a ranged attack option.

It just won't be quite as effective at tanking as the STR builds above, since its lacking the tanky feats and abilities like Sentinel+PAM, or Warcaster Booming Blade OAs, or Shield Master's BA Prone.

[animorte]

Admittedly I tend to lean toward Dex builds because I'm not a huge fan of armor outside of light armor. Which is one reason why I thought Ancestral Guardian barbarian might be fun.

Same here. Dex = best stat. Then Wis, then Con.

[RogueJK]

Or if you want to tank more than one enemy at a time with an ability similar to Ancestral Guardian Barbarian's, how about an Armorer Artificer in Light Armor? Their Thunder Gauntlets let you be a DEX-heavy tank with an ability similar to Ancestral Guardian, but not limited to just one enemy each round.

Nothing says that an Armorer has to be Plate Mail Iron Man. Perhaps you just have some studded leather with a some technogadget bits and bobs added on.

Variant Human Armorer Artificer
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 15+1
WIS 10
CHA 8
ASIs: Sentinel at 1st, +2 INT at 4th, +2 DEX at 8th, and +2 INT at 12th.

When you want to tank and fight in melee, you have the Sentinel feat and the Guardian Armor with its Thunder Gauntlets, which can impose Disadvantage on attacks against your allies for up to two enemies that you attack on your turn, plus potentially a third enemy that triggers a Reaction attack from you either by leaving your threatened area or by attacking an ally and triggering your Sentinel attack.

When you want to scout and fight at range, you have the Infiltrator Armor with its Lightning Launcher and stealth boost.

You can switch between these two modes each Short Rest. And with either one, you can attack with INT.

Plus you can wield a shield and still cast spells without needing Warcaster since your Armor is your focus, and you have spells to further boost your tanking/protection capabilities, like Sanctuary and Aid

[Speely]

Same here. Dex = best stat. Then Wis, then Con.

Are you me? Also, why do I keep trying to make Monks a thing?

[Unoriginal]

I'm just wondering, which of these would be a better defensive tank? An ancestral guardian barbarian, a conquest paladin or a conquest paladin with a 1 level dip into Hexblade.

Conquest Paladin, with the dip or not, isn't a tank. Not unless you invest into feats or at least a feat.

So Ancestral Barbarian is definitively the better tank of the two, as it is the only tank of the two.

Ancestral Barbarian is a grest tank on its own, zhough, and Conquest Paladin can do plenty of other stuff.

[Hael]

Conquest Paladin, with the dip or not, isn't a tank. Not unless you invest into feats or at least a feat.

So Ancestral Barbarian is definitively the better tank of the two, as it is the only tank of the two.

Ancestral Barbarian is a grest tank on its own, zhough, and Conquest Paladin can do plenty of other stuff.

What do you mean by a tank? If you are talking survivability, paladins will have higher AC, more effective health (lay on hands), spells (ac/saves, advantage).. The hexblade dip gives them the shield spell (which is ridiculous) and then they have aura, which is an enormous defensive and tanking advantage that I would argue eliminates more damage than resistances.

If you are talking CC.. Then its hard to compete with spells, and the aura.

If you are talking about hitting things in melee hard with a stick, then yes the Barbarian is a good bit better outside of a few nova rounds.

[Unoriginal]

What do you mean by a tank? If you are talking survivability, paladins will have higher AC, more effective health (lay on hands), spells (ac/saves, advantage).. The hexblade dip gives them the shield spell (which is ridiculous) and then they have aura, which is an enormous defensive and tanking advantage that I would argue eliminates more damage than resistances.

If you are talking CC.. Then its hard to compete with spells, and the aura.

If you are talking about hitting things in melee hard with a stick, then yes the Barbarian is a good bit better outside of a few nova rounds.

Neither survavibility nor crowd control nor hitting things with a stick is tanking.

Tanking is preventing your teammates from getting hurt when they're targetted by an attack, a save or another effect, generally either by making so the attack/save/effect misses, by mitigating the damage, or by making so the target is something else than them (usually the tank themselves).

Conquest Paladins are good at survavibility, hitting things with a stick, and crowd control, but if a NPC decides to, say, Multiattack the Bard PC, there is basically nothing the Conquest Paladin can do.

[stoutstien]

Depends on party makeup, pacing, theme of game, and level of difficulty played at.

[Spiritchaser]

I’d compare an AG barbarian MC’d with echo knight with sentinel against a conquest Paladin with a a single level dip in hexblade, though the answer to which is better is… Yes.

As has been mentioned, AG barbarian can only debuff one target, and only when raging. With some, or a lot of Echo Knight mixed in, you get to be even better at debuffing a big bad, and you have more options for tying up movement of your foes. Sometimes you’ll be able to debuff one foe and lock down a second. You also get to do more damage, and by tanking at range through your echo, you can be a lot tougher. You do limit your rages to do this because you have fewer barb levels.

A Hexblade 1 Conquest Paladin X is better against lots of foes, generally stronger against harder to hit foes and weaker against those with high saves, much weaker against those with fear immunity, which might be lots, or might be nearly none, depending on the campaign.

These are both great tanks, If you know something about the campaign, you can make a choice that way, or just pick the one that sounds best.

[Randomthom]

Alternative idea...
Cleric 1 (domain with heavy armor proficiency)/Wizard (School of Abjuration) X.

Forge Domain can get you an extra +1 AC on your armor/shield. Twilight gets you martial weapons and insane darkvision range.

Stat Priority would be Int & Con high, Wis 13. Aim for Mithral Plate armor or a belt of giant strength so you can equip the plate armour and you get a solid 20AC + Shield of Faith (22 AC) + Shield (when needed, 27 AC).

Get the Warcaster feat and you can use a shield + weapon in your hands and keep casting spells. You can now Shocking Grasp anyone who tries to get away from you. Booming Blade doesn't work RAW anymore for this since its rework but is a better choice if your DM allows the older interpretation of the spell.

Now pick spells that give you strong battlefield control. Pick a variety of spells to target different saving throws so you can hamstring all kinds of foes.

Resilient (Con) is probably your next best pick.

Hill Dwarf is an excellent racial pick for this for the +1 HP per level, especially if you're allowed to use Tasha's to swap around the racial ability modifiers.

[da newt]

Pure tank = AG

The Pali is more control than tank, but also more versatile in general compared to the AG who who is kind of a one trick pony (although fear immune foes do bypass a lot of the conquest's shtick).

I'd argue the best tanks in the game aren't really tanks but are controllers, but it all depends on how you define tanking.

[RogueJK]

Conquest Paladin, with the dip or not, isn't a tank.

Tanking is preventing your teammates from getting hurt when they're targetted by an attack, a save or another effect, generally either by making so the attack/save/effect misses, by mitigating the damage, or by making so the target is something else than them (usually the tank themselves).

Conquest Paladins are good at survavibility, hitting things with a stick, and crowd control, but if a NPC decides to, say, Multiattack the Bard PC, there is basically nothing the Conquest Paladin can do.

I couldn't disagree more.

-Compelled Duel can cause the attacks against the Bard to miss through inflicting Disadvantage on all its attacks against anyone but the Paladin, which also serves to incentivize focusing on the Paladin instead.
-The Frightened condition from Fear, Wrathful Smite, or Conquering Presence gives the enemy Disadvantage on all attacks, including those against the Bard. And you can affect multiple enemies at a time with Fear/Conquering Presence.
-Aura of Conquest + Frightened can prevent them from being able to move away from the Paladin to reach the Bard, causing them focus on the Paladin, and it affects all nearby enemies within 10' who are Frightened
-Proning a Frightened enemy within your Aura of Conquest means they can't stand up since their speed is 0, and they now have Disadvantage on all attacks, including those against the Bard (if they can even reach them).
-Warding Bond can boost the Bard's AC and saves, and any attacks/spells that make it through that have their damage split with the Paladin, thus mitigating damage to the squishy Bard.
-Interception/Protection Fighting Style can make an attack miss through Disadvantage, or mitigate some of the damage, if they attack the nearby Bard.
-Blinding Smite can make attacks against the Bard miss through inflicting Disadvantage on all the enemy's attacks.
-Aura of Protection, Bless, and Circle of Power cause more enemy spells/effects to miss the Bard by boosting their saves.

Those are all legitimate "tanking" abilities, by your definition, that can be leveraged by a Conquest Paladin. That's greater tanking options than an Ancestral Guardian, who only has 2 tanking abilities. (Maybe 3 if you consider Reckless Attack as a means to inventivize attacking the Barbarian over the Bard.) Plus, they can only affect one enemy at a time with their Ancestral Protectors Disadvantage/Damage Resistance, and their Spirit Shield Reaction is quite similar to Protection Fighting Style's Reaction, just with a bit less damage mitigation in Tier 1/2 in exchange for the increased range of 30' vs. 5'.

Then factor in the Paladin's other control spells like Command, Hold Person, Dominate Person, Bestow Curse, Banishing Smite, etc., which can prevent attacks/spells/effects against the Bard in the first place by incapacitating them, removing them from the battlefield, or causing them to waste their Actions.

Plus the typically greater damage output of the average Paladin compared to the average Barbarian (especially non-GWM, and especially in higher Tiers), which removes enemies from the fight quicker by more rapidly depleting their HP, thus reducing the number of rounds where they have the opportunity to attack the Bard.

And don't forget their greater personal survivability through buff spells like Armor of Agathys and Aid, boosted saves, and healing, which comes in extra handy when you're incentivizing attacking the Paladin instead of the Bard by being an effective Tank.

Lastly, I'll point out that a Paladin is more likely to qualify for the Inspiring Leader feat than a Barbarian, which is itself a fantastic means of damage mitigation for the entire party, generating a huge amount of additional HP throughout the adventuring day.

[OldTrees1]

I once drafted an Ancestral Guardian 3+ / Paladin 6+ character. It was fun seeing the two approaches synergize.

Ultimately it boils down to which threat do you want to protect your allies from.

[werescythe]

So one thought has occurred to me is that, there is a chance that this character might be facing up against another paladin (one of a frw established bad guys). With that thought in mind, is Conquest Paladin still a good option, considering that the enemy paladin would be immune to the frightened condition.

[RogueJK]

So one thought has occurred to me is that, there is a chance that this character might be facing up against another paladin (one of a frw established bad guys). With that thought in mind, is Conquest Paladin still a good option, considering that the enemy paladin would be immune to the frightened condition.

Yes. The Conquest Paladin has a lot of stuff to do besides just their fear effects, and the various fear effects would still be useful in many other fights.

[animorte]

Are you me? Also, why do I keep trying to make Monks a thing?

I probably am you, although a thousand styles of Warlock -check sig- is all me (slight priority over making Monks a thing).