Making Skulker good

[Kane0]

Skulker is one of those kinda mediocre feats. It has a niche but isnt a powerhouse or must-get even for sneaky types.

Hiding with only light obscurement is something that races like elves and halflings can already do, or completely bypass with heavy concealment, cover or invisibility.
Ignoring perception disadvantage is a great synergy with darkvision which is plentiful, assuming your group remembers and uses the vision rules and you are the one really needing perception. Not revealing yourself on missed (ranged, weapon) attacks is also really cool, but the benefit seems pretty marginal if you are accompannied by a clanking plate-clad warrior and mage screaming gibberish in his sleepwear... or you hit which was what you were trying to do in the first place.

So, how to make it better? What builds and strategies get the best use out of it? What sort of changes could you make to make it more interesting and/or lucrative?

[stoutstien]

Skulker is one of those kinda mediocre feats. It has a niche but isnt a powerhouse or must-get even for sneaky types.

Hiding with only light obscurement is something that races like elves and halflings can already do, or completely bypass with heavy concealment, cover or invisibility.
Ignoring perception disadvantage is a great synergy with darkvision which is plentiful, assuming your group remembers and uses the vision rules and you are the one really needing perception. Not revealing yourself on missed (ranged, weapon) attacks is also really cool, but the benefit seems pretty marginal if you are accompannied by a clanking plate-clad warrior and mage screaming gibberish in his sleepwear... or you hit which was what you were trying to do in the first place.

So, how to make it better? What builds and strategies get the best use out of it? What sort of changes could you make to make it more interesting and/or lucrative?

Both the wood elf and lightfoot halfling options are limited to narrow circumstantial types of light obscurement where skulker just works. Dim light is probably going to be the most common one but moderate foliage or even a busy city street would count as well.
The ability to ignore disadvantage on perception checks is also stronger than it looks. Not only does it give you a ~+5 to your checks it opens up the path for you to gain advantage as well. Gainging adv on your perception checks while moving around in a dark and deadly environment is sound way to avoid ambushes and traps.

One of the better ways leverage skulker is grab it and sentinel on a rogue and enjoy the of AOs.

[follacchioso]

Skulker is an amazing feat, if you play by the rules.

Put it on a Gloomstalker ranger, and you are essentially invisible at night. Sleep during the day, and adventure only after dusk. Or go explore caves and dungeons.

Enemies without darkvision will be able to see you in dim light at best, if you are in range of torches or during a night of full moon. You can hide from them, but they can't hide from you. If you attack them and miss, they will struggle to understand what is going on.

Enemies will darkvision will struggle to see you at all. In total darkness, they will still see you as in dim light - which is enough for you to hide. Under dim light, like torches or moon, you'll be invisible to them thanks to your Gloomstalker traits.

Other classes than Gloomstalker also benefit from this feat - maybe less effective against enemies with darkvision, but still good. Find a way to get a better darkvision range than normal, like wearing goggles or night or get a level of Twilight Cleric - and you will be at tactical advantage.

Even during the day, finding places in dim light is not a big deal - just find the shadow of a tree or a building, and that will be enough for you to hide.

[strangebloke]

I think in reality most feats that aren't DPR-focused will simply get ignored even if they're really good. Nobody wants DPR/saves to trail for the sake of utility even if you're objectively getting more value from the utility. Feats like ritual caster or inspiring leader are insanely strong, but you almost never see someone slotting one of these into their optimized build because they can't let their ability scores lag. People largely only take utility feats that are half-feats.

Skulker is in this category, and additionally suffers from most DMs basically giving this feat to players for free because of how they run stealth. If you do run RAW stealth, skulker is amazing, but I think a point from the field of architecture is relevant here: if people keep breaking your system, its a sign that it was poorly designed. The stealth system is a constant point of confusion for basically everyone who plays DND, and it really doesn't help that the relevant blurbs are spread between three different spots in the PHB.

So IMO, fix the stealth system, then figure out what you want Skulker to do, then set your campaign up in such a way that utility feats aren't competing with DPR feats/ASIs.

[JellyPooga]

Skulker, for me, is insanely good for those that want it and pretty useless for those that don't. Polearm Master also fits into this category of Feats. No-one is going to argue that PAM is a great Feat for anyone using a Polearm, but on a Rogue it's entirely useless. For that same Rogue (among other builds), however, Skulker is going to enable pop-up Hide-&-Snipe much more readily and safely, as well as enable them to scout more effectively (especially using Darkvision) by avoiding that Dim Light penalty. These aren't small benefits for the kind of characters that want to effective be in those scenarios. For the Plate Armoured Paladin that dumped Dex and Wis to 8? Not so much.

It's absolutely worth the investment; so-much-so that as a frequent rogue/scout player, it's often my lvl.4 pick-up.

Where you won't see it used much is in "arena builds", which are commonly seen online and tend to focus on DPR to the exclusion of all else, or on builds that don't have any stealth focus at all. After all, why would you?
Does that make it a niche-use Feat? Sure.
Does that mean the Feat needs to be better than it already is? No.

Would it see more play if it was better? Well, probably, but assuming its use is still limited to those that can take advantage of its features, it's still only going to be taken by that limited subsection of characters that are probably thinking of taking it regardless. Imagine arguing PAM needs improving because not enough non-polearm users are taking it, so you give it a boost but keep the limitation of being polearms only? You're just handing out free candy at that point, but not addressing the reason why non-users aren't taking it.

If you expand its utility to be more attractive to those that don't fall under its current remit, 1) I have to wonder what it's going to be while staying true to the theme of the feat and 2) are you going to risk having a feat that does sooomething for certain characters, but leaving most or other parts of the feat as being fairly useless? e.g. Shield Master or Sharpshooter definitely have benefits for Rogues, so they might think of taking them but there are enough parts of the Feat that they can't use, won't use or don't need to use that they're simply not great picks for them. Adding a "you aren't a scout but you might find this useful" portion to the Feat is going to run into the same problem as Sharpshooter or Shield Master does for the Rogue. Yeah, maybe a Dex 8 Paladin might have a use for whatever it is you add, but are they going to invest in the whole Feat just for that one sub-clause? Probably not and certainly not outside of some pretty niche builds.

[solidork]

I think in reality most feats that aren't DPR-focused will simply get ignored even if they're really good.

I really think it's a mistake to assume that most people have the kind of DPR mania that is common in optimization circles. The people I play with do all kinds of 'suboptimal' things because it fits their character concept or they think it's cool, and I'm sure we're not the only ones.

[RSP]

The main issues I see with Skulker:

- most times the disadvantage on perception checks in dim light is forgotten about or ignored during play, which devalues the ability to do so with the feat. The one who takes Skulker is left reminding all the other PCs they have to roll at disadvantage, which doesn’t always go over well given the consequences of failing perception checks.

- most times being a “scout” doesn’t play as well as anticipated. Tables generally don’t like sitting around watching one character do all the exploring, so it’s usually everyone sneaking together, which devalues the hiding feature. Stuff like the availability of Invisibility also devalues Skulker.

Generally, I’d probably say grabbing Eldritch Adept: Devil’s Sight does more for a character regularly in the dark than Skulker: it takes away all penalties of darkness and probably is giving a larger distance to see.

[stoutstien]

The main issues I see with Skulker:

- most times the disadvantage on perception checks in dim light is forgotten about or ignored during play, which devalues the ability to do so with the feat. The one who takes Skulker is left reminding all the other PCs they have to roll at disadvantage, which doesn’t always go over well given the consequences of failing perception checks.

- most times being a “scout” doesn’t play as well as anticipated. Tables generally don’t like sitting around watching one character do all the exploring, so it’s usually everyone sneaking together, which devalues the hiding feature. Stuff like the availability of Invisibility also devalues Skulker.

Generally, I’d probably say grabbing Eldritch Adept: Devil’s Sight does more for a character regularly in the dark than Skulker: it takes away all penalties of dim light/darkness and probably is giving a larger distance to see.
Devils sight does no such thing. It has absolutely no interaction with dim light. I guess it proves your point that the feat loses value based on tables just not following some of the basic rules.

[Kane0]

So IMO, fix the stealth system, then figure out what you want Skulker to do, then set your campaign up in such a way that utility feats aren't competing with DPR feats/ASIs.
Well im happy for that to be a detour this thread takes lol

[RSP]

Devils sight does no such thing. It has absolutely no interaction with dim light. I guess it proves your point that the feat loses value based on tables just not following some of the basic rules.

Apologies, you’re right. I’m used to it on Darkvision builds. I was thinking DS allows you to read writing and whatnot, that Skulker does not. (Edited original post to reflect that correction)

Both Skulker and DS work better with Darkvision: but you’re still better off with DS than Skulker if you don’t have Darkvision.

[stoutstien]

Apologies, you’re right. I’m used to it on Darkvision builds. I was thinking DS allows you to read writing and whatnot, that Skulker does not. (Edited original post to reflect that correction)

Both Skulker and DS work better with Darkvision: but you’re still better off with DS than Skulker if you don’t have Darkvision.

That's probably arguably true but most those looking to lurk and slunk tend to have Dark vision at the least.

Oh. control flame is a good way to increase the value of skulker and it's a good tool to have in general of you care about stealth.

[Corran]

One of the better ways leverage skulker is grab it and sentinel on a rogue and enjoy the of AOs.
Or combo with a hit and runner if sentinel doesn't make the cut and settle for an OA instead of the sentinel attack.

It can be good on casters (generally squishies) and/or goblins too.

[strangebloke]

Well im happy for that to be a detour this thread takes lol

I was writing up a big post on this, but honestly I think the current system does more or less work, its just scattered between half a dozen places in the sourcebooks and thus gets misapplied. But maybe I just have stockholm syndrome lol. There are definitely some extremely obscure wordings here, and in many cases I don't think the extra words help at all. But maybe that's inevitable with rules lawyers trying to argue stuff like "if you don't take the hide action you're not hidden and the enemy automatically knows your location no matter the distances involved!"

[Schwann145]

Skulker is an amazing feat, if you play by the rules.
Nail on the head.


...but I think a point from the field of architecture is relevant here: if people keep breaking your system, its a sign that it was poorly designed.
I don't want to say that the Stealth system is wonderfully designed, because it's definitely not. But I think it's more fair to chalk this up to, "gamers can never be bothered to read the d*** book." A gaming truth that extends to all editions, of all games.

[Mastikator]

The main issues I see with Skulker:

- most times the disadvantage on perception checks in dim light is forgotten about or ignored during play, which devalues the ability to do so with the feat. The one who takes Skulker is left reminding all the other PCs they have to roll at disadvantage, which doesn’t always go over well given the consequences of failing perception checks.

What you're saying is 100% true, people do regularly play darkvision wrong in a way that a) makes it overpowered, b) makes skulker redundant, c) makes darkness trivial, d) makes torches redundant, and e) makes non-darkvision PCs feel stupid. By taking the skulker feat you force people to play correctly which also forces them to confront how much they've been cheating. Which makes people unhappy. Skulker isn't really to blame, but it gets blamed.

People complain that D&D 5e is flawed and bad, usually the things they complain about are in my opinion directly a consequence of how they don't play according to the rules. Stop half assing it and you'd have a better experience IMO, whole-ass D&D.

[Hytheter]

I'd gladly ditch darkvision altogether, or at least seriously trim down the races that have access to it.

I think the reason perception (generally speaking, not the skill) gets played incorrectly is that the rules are just kind of finicky.

[Schwann145]

I'd gladly ditch darkvision altogether, or at least seriously trim down the races that have access to it.

Trueee.
Something that's supposed to be strong enough to warrant being a 2nd level spell should not be so carelessly and freely handed out to 90% of races, "just cuz."

[Kane0]

What you're saying is 100% true, people do regularly play darkvision wrong in a way that a) makes it overpowered, b) makes skulker redundant, c) makes darkness trivial, d) makes torches redundant, and e) makes non-darkvision PCs feel stupid. By taking the skulker feat you force people to play correctly which also forces them to confront how much they've been cheating. Which makes people unhappy. Skulker isn't really to blame, but it gets blamed.

People complain that D&D 5e is flawed and bad, usually the things they complain about are in my opinion directly a consequence of how they don't play according to the rules. Stop half assing it and you'd have a better experience IMO, whole-ass D&D.

As mentioned above it really doesnt help how those rules were laid out and are a bit of a pain to collate and understand while reading.

[Tanarii]

Hiding with only light obscurement is something that races like elves and halflings can already do, or completely bypass with heavy concealment, cover or invisibility.
Being able to hide in Dim light is worth a feat all by itself.

[RSP]

Being able to hide in Dim light is worth a feat all by itself.

Really depends. If the DM let’s PCs get by on Stealth checks anyway, what’s the point? If the DM does group checks and everyone deals with being discovered or not as group, again, what’s the point?

[heavyfuel]

I think Skulker is a pretty good feat.

The biggest issue is that Stealth kinda sucks in 5e unless you have high Stealth on the entire party, at which point Stealth becomes extremely OP. Having played in a party where all 3 of us had high Stealth mods (which became even higher when the Ranger got PWaT), the Rogue with Skulker was doing amazingly well, in large part thanks to the feat.

[Chronos]

A feat having a niche but not being must-get is what I'd call good game design. All feats should be that way. If some of them aren't, then houserule those other feats.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Being able to hide in Dim light is worth a feat all by itself.

…and Skulker also works in a snowstorm or in a heavy rain, or on a crowded street.

Truesight can see through Darkness or Dim Light, but someone with the Skulker feat can Hide from someone with Truesight in a monsoon rainstorm.

I could see adding a +1 Stat boost to it, to help encourage people to take it. From the tone of some of the posts, en combat Hiding, sounds like it might be a rare event.

[Kane0]

I could see adding a +1 Stat boost to it, to help encourage people to take it. From the tone of some of the posts, en combat Hiding, sounds like it might be a rare event.

Or maybe by using half your movement instead of an action to Hide, like standing from prone or getting on a mount?

[Thunderous Mojo]

Or maybe by using half your movement instead of an action to Hide, like standing from prone or getting on a mount?

That would be too good, in my estimation.

[kazaryu]

Skulker is an amazing feat, if you play by the rules.

Put it on a Gloomstalker ranger, and you are essentially invisible at night. Sleep during the day, and adventure only after dusk. Or go explore caves and dungeons.

Enemies without darkvision will be able to see you in dim light at best, if you are in range of torches or during a night of full moon. You can hide from them, but they can't hide from you. If you attack them and miss, they will struggle to understand what is going on.

Enemies will darkvision will struggle to see you at all. In total darkness, they will still see you as in dim light - which is enough for you to hide. Under dim light, like torches or moon, you'll be invisible to them thanks to your Gloomstalker traits.

Other classes than Gloomstalker also benefit from this feat - maybe less effective against enemies with darkvision, but still good. Find a way to get a better darkvision range than normal, like wearing goggles or night or get a level of Twilight Cleric - and you will be at tactical advantage.

Even during the day, finding places in dim light is not a big deal - just find the shadow of a tree or a building, and that will be enough for you to hide.

i think you're confused....as a gloomstalker you're invisible so long as you're in total darkness (i.e. enemies must rely on darkvision to see you). in dim light you'd need to actually take the hide action

[RSP]

i think you're confused....as a gloomstalker you're invisible so long as you're in total darkness (i.e. enemies must rely on darkvision to see you). in dim light you'd need to actually take the hide action

Correction: when in darkness you’re invisible to anyone using only Darkvision to see you.

[kazaryu]

Correction: when in darkness you’re invisible to anyone using only Darkvision to see you.

a fair distinction for a general explanation of the ability, i suppose i should have been more precise. but, in-context i think my paraphrase was fine. since the person i was replying to seemed to be saying that you were invisible in dim light, but not total darkness...

[Kane0]

....Huh. Maybe just add Control Flames as a free cantrip to the Skulker feat then, and maybe expand the second bullet to also apply to ranged spell attacks so casters can be hitmen too? Though there aren't that many attack roll spells.

Edit: Hell, even expand to attacks in general. If you run out from cover to backstab someone that is distracted and you're hidden from it seems like it would be OK to be able to run back again should you fail.

[Kane0]

Doublepost, but it occurs to me that basic Stealth generally has no answer to things like Blindsight, scent and magical detection (Alarm, Detect X, Locate X). That could be another niche for Skulker to expand into, in order to be useful at higher levels when means of detection beyond darkvision and a good perception become more common.