How would you rule this?

[freakybeak]

Relatively simple one, just trying to get a few opinions on this as I'll potentially be playing this with a variety of DMs.

Crusher feat states you can move a target 5ft to an unoccopied space. As far as I can tell this could very easily mean straight up, which checks out thematically. Super strong guy bonks enemy a bit into the air.

If you're playing a Minotaur you gain the "Hammering Horns" feature. It states that "Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as a part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns. The target must be within 5 feet of you and no more than one size larger than you. Unless it succeeds on a Strength saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier, you push it up to 10 feet away from you."

So, the idea is that you then vault them another 10 feet diagonally up so they will then fall prone. Super thematic for a minotaur!

Obviously this is inspired by Chris from Treantmonk's youtube channel, but I'm very curious to see how people would actually rule this in real play. I don't think it's game breaking, personally, but it is a pretty strong/fun way to play a brawler type character!

[Amnestic]

Minotaur, in both its original and updated forms, is very disappointing as a playable race to me. I would no problems with a minotaur player doing this. Arguably a problem is that it pushes the minotaur into an already narrow niche that it's in, but since it feels thematic that's not really a big deal to me.

[JLandan]

Relatively simple one, just trying to get a few opinions on this as I'll potentially be playing this with a variety of DMs.

Crusher feat states you can move a target 5ft to an unoccopied space. As far as I can tell this could very easily mean straight up, which checks out thematically. Super strong guy bonks enemy a bit into the air.

If you're playing a Minotaur you gain the "Hammering Horns" feature. It states that "Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as a part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns. The target must be within 5 feet of you and no more than one size larger than you. Unless it succeeds on a Strength saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier, you push it up to 10 feet away from you."

So, the idea is that you then vault them another 10 feet diagonally up so they will then fall prone. Super thematic for a minotaur!

Obviously this is inspired by Chris from Treantmonk's youtube channel, but I'm very curious to see how people would actually rule this in real play. I don't think it's game breaking, personally, but it is a pretty strong/fun way to play a brawler type character!

I would rule:

The Crusher feat, if you moved the target straight up 5', would fall 5' (non-damaging fall) into the same space, accomplishing nothing.

Hammering Horns, if you moved the target straight up 10' would fall 10' (1d6 bludgeoning) into the same space, accomplishing a little.
I would also allow 5' up and 5' away, moving the target back one square and doing no damage, but you could do that anyway because "up to 10'".

This tactic is better served if there are environmental hazards available. Cliffs, fires, pits, wells, lakes, cactus patch, etc.

[RogueJK]

I would rule:

The Crusher feat, if you moved the target straight up 5', would fall 5' (non-damaging fall) into the same space, accomplishing nothing.

Hammering Horns, if you moved the target straight up 10' would fall 10' (1d6 bludgeoning) into the same space, accomplishing a little.

I completely agree.

Further, the 5' shove from the Bludgeoning Crusher attack and the 10' shove from the BA Horn shove are distinct events, due to utilizing separate actions and separate rolls. So Crusher's 5' movement (including a pointless 5' up and falling back down) resolves before the BA Hammering Horns 10' shove attempt even begins.

Therefore, your combo options are stuff like:

Bludgeoning hit with Crusher 5' shove sideways + BA 10' shove, for up to 15' total horizontal movement (but only 10' away from you since HH occurs immediately after the Crusher hit, with no opportunity to move in between to close the 5' gap)

Or

Bludgeoning hit with Crusher 5' shove sideways + BA 10' vertical shove into air and fall, for 5' horizontal movement plus 1d6 falling damage and Prone, potentially followed by another Extra Attack with Advantage from Prone.


You couldn't knock someone 15' up until the air, all at once. And you couldn't knock someone up in the air, and then shove them 5' away, because HH requires the hit to land first before the BA triggers.

[Jervis]

Relatively simple one, just trying to get a few opinions on this as I'll potentially be playing this with a variety of DMs.

Crusher feat states you can move a target 5ft to an unoccopied space. As far as I can tell this could very easily mean straight up, which checks out thematically. Super strong guy bonks enemy a bit into the air.

If you're playing a Minotaur you gain the "Hammering Horns" feature. It states that "Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as a part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns. The target must be within 5 feet of you and no more than one size larger than you. Unless it succeeds on a Strength saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier, you push it up to 10 feet away from you."

So, the idea is that you then vault them another 10 feet diagonally up so they will then fall prone. Super thematic for a minotaur!

Obviously this is inspired by Chris from Treantmonk's youtube channel, but I'm very curious to see how people would actually rule this in real play. I don't think it's game breaking, personally, but it is a pretty strong/fun way to play a brawler type character!

While this is somewhat an ambiguity it's important to keep in mind the reasoning. Per Xanathar's rules simultaneous effects take place in a order set by the person controlling the creature, in this case the player. Both hammering horns and crusher take place in response to the same trigger, that being immediately after a weapon attack, so you just have crusher shoot them up before hammering horns shoots them away. You can reverse this order to have them be knocked away 15 feet via having crusher activate after the creature is shoved. Slightly nonsensical on the last one but on firm ground RAW.


I would rule:

The Crusher feat, if you moved the target straight up 5', would fall 5' (non-damaging fall) into the same space, accomplishing nothing.

Hammering Horns, if you moved the target straight up 10' would fall 10' (1d6 bludgeoning) into the same space, accomplishing a little.
I would also allow 5' up and 5' away, moving the target back one square and doing no damage, but you could do that anyway because "up to 10'".

This tactic is better served if there are environmental hazards available. Cliffs, fires, pits, wells, lakes, cactus patch, etc.

Uh, thats not have 5e diagonals work. 5 feet up and 5 feet away is still 5 feet, otherwise movement on a grid would work like it did in 3.5. Thats also why circles have 4 corners in dnd raw. Again xanathar's guide codified this as circles being squares because of how 5e handles moving on a grid but it was already unintentionally that way because with the method of calculating distance that 5e uses a circle wouldn't work. (As an aside to have movement actually make sense visually you just need to use the every other square of diagonal movement is 10 feet variant rule in the dmg that sets movement to the way it worked in 3.5) This is true in 3 dimensions as well, thats why attacking a flying creature with a ranged weapon calculates distance with the longest of the height or distance on the grid. So 5 feet up and 5 feet forward is just 5 feet away while 10 feet up and 10 feet forward is 10 feet away.

[RogueJK]

Per Xanathar's rules simultaneous effects take place in a order set by the person controlling the creature, in this case the player. Both hammering horns and crusher take place in response to the same trigger, so you just have crusher shoot them up before hammering horns shoots them away. You can reverse this order to have them be knocked away 15 feet via having crusher activate after the creature is shoved. Slightly nonsensical on the last one but on firm ground RAW.

I disagree. It's right there in the wording of Crusher and Hammering Horns.

Crusher: when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space

Hammering Horns: Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as a part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns

So they're not simultaneous effects. Crusher's shove happens simultaneous with the hit, but the Hammer Horns bonus action occurs after the hit. Therefore, Crusher resolves before Hammering Horns.

[Jervis]

I disagree. It's right there in the wording of Crusher and Hammering Horns.

Crusher: when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space

Hammering Horns: Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as a part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns

So they're not simultaneous effects. Crusher's shove happens simultaneous with the hit, but the Hammer Horns bonus action occurs after the hit. Therefore, Crusher resolves before Hammering Horns.

Well either way hammering horns occurs immediately, thus before they fall. The end result is the same regardless.

Edit: I reread through the build and i was right about the simultaneous effects part of it, i just messed up the ones it applies to.



Simultaneous Effects

Most effects in the game occur in succession, following an order set by the DM. In rare cased effects can occur at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creatures turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monsters turn, the person at the table - whether the player or the DM - who controls the creature decides what order in which those things happen.

Rate of Falling
The rules for falling assume a creature Immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.



Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as a part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to shove that target with your horns

So you have two effects occurring at the same time on your turn, a creature falling and hammering horns. You use hammering horns to shove 10 feet diagonally after knocking them up 5 feet in the air, at which point their falling resolves. The end result is that the creature is 10 feet in front of you and falls 15 feet down.