Any better divine/arcane mix?

[Rleonardh]

Druid 1/Wizard 3/Druid 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2

Let's you do practiced spellcaster at level 1 and 3 to max caster levels of both.

Just wondering if there anything better out there, other than full divine caster or arcane caster.

[Kurald Galain]

Just wondering if there anything better out there,

The catch here is action economy. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you've prepared 20 or 200 spells, it matters how many spells you can cast during the encounter.

At high levels, that obviously means Quicken Spell. But at low levels, it's great if you have a class ability that lets you cast as a swift action. A build like Warpriest 2 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge lets you cast an arcane and a divine spell in the same round, as early as level 3.

[Rleonardh]

The catch here is action economy. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you've prepared 20 or 200 spells, it matters how many spells you can cast during the encounter.

At high levels, that obviously means Quicken Spell. But at low levels, it's great if you have a class ability that lets you cast as a swift action. A build like Warpriest 2 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge lets you cast an arcane and a divine spell in the same round, as early as level 3.

Not sure if Pathfinder would be allowed
As WarPriest is a prc in 3.5

[MaxiDuRaritry]

More druid, less wizard, and more Precocious Apprentice and/or Versatile Spellcaster?

[ciopo]

do you want to be more druid, or more wizard?

Generally, mystic theurge+arcane hierophant is "the" theurging, the only way you have to improve it is to do early entry, the most common being taking precocious spellcaster on either the arcane or the divine side

an example is
druid 2 / wizard 1( feat: precocious spellcaster) / druid 3 / mystic theurge 2 / arcane hierophant 10 / mystic theurge 6, the end result isn't much different, it's "more high level slots" and "druid spell progression is delayed by only one level"

Another one, if the way your gm rules sha'ir to be is that it counts for both arcane and divine, it's to use that as one of the two sides.

Personally the shenanigans I like doing the most with sha'ir is sha'ir 3 / wizard 1 / mystic theurge 2 / ultimate magus 10 / mystic theurge 6, but it's very GM dependant. By strict RAW my interpretation of sha'ir for example is that it's "not arcane and not divine", it also requires the interpretation that sha'ir is a spontaneous caster ( again, by strict reading it's not prepared and not spontaneous, or some wiggle room as "both")

[Rleonardh]

More druid, less wizard, and more Precocious Apprentice and/or Versatile Spellcaster?

Precocious Apprentice would work.

Versatile Spellcaster can not due to you must know 2nd level spells to even use 2 lower with it plus spontaneous only to boot. 😭

Definitely can see a:
D1/w3/mt4/ah10/mt2
Or
W1/d3/mt4/ah10/mt2

druid 2 / wizard 1( feat: precocious spellcaster) / druid 3 / mystic theurge 2 / arcane hierophant 10 / mystic theurge 6, the end result isn't much different, it's "more high level slots" and "druid spell progression is delayed by only one level.


Would you not need mystic theurge 4 to get you to level 3 spells for druid first?
Mystic Theurge 2 would get you back to level 2 spells losing the feat(1 more spell slot though) than you need 2 more mystic theurge to get to 3rd level spells for arcane hierophant.

[ciopo]

Would you not need mystic theurge 4 to get you to level 3 spells for druid first?
? druid3+ mystic theurge 2 is 5 levle of druid casting= 3rd level spells.

only reason I'm putting some mystic theurge beofre arcane hierophant is the BAB 4 prerequisite .. which probably needs mystic theurge 4, yeah, sorry

[Rleonardh]

Druid 1 with feat gives 2nd level spell
Mt 2 would give you 2nd level spell (s)
Mt 4 would be druid 5 so level 3
Or am I missing something??

So a strict dm won't allow the feat to do early access. Spell is not spell(s)

So d1/w3/mt6/ah10
Mt 6 would give you BaB 3 plus wiz 3 would be BaB4 I believe.
If allowed

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Versatile Spellcaster can not due to you must know 2nd level spells to even use 2 lower with it plus spontaneous only to boot. 😭A.) The only time you're limited on the level of spell you can have in your spellbook is when you're adding it due to level. You can manually add one or take a feat like Precocious Apprentice to add higher level spells than you could normally cast. Unless there's a rule I'm not seeing in the SRD?

B.) It's not terribly difficult to turn a wizard into a spontaneous caster, and adding levels in druid or cleric works, since they spontaneously cast summon nature's ally X and cure X wounds spells respectively, and Versatile Spellcaster only requires you to be able to spontaneously cast spells for prereqs but doesn't specify that you can only use the feat with spontaneous slots.

C.) Every spell in your spellbook is considered a spell known if you're a wizard, so Versatile Spellcaster would allow you to sacrifice 2 lower level spells for a higher level one that's in your spellbook.

D.) Versatile Spellcaster doesn't limit your highest castable spell to what you could normally cast. It just says, "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." Nothing beyond sacrificing slots to cast one you know, and wizards can know spells beyond what they could normally cast.

[Rleonardh]

Very true didn't consider that

[Thurbane]

The catch here is action economy. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you've prepared 20 or 200 spells, it matters how many spells you can cast during the encounter.

Spells that innately have swift or immediate casting times can help with that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about doing a divine metamagic build? Lots of spells equals lots of all-day buffs.


Spells that innately have swift or immediate casting times can help with that.Also long durations. Doesn't matter if mage armor has a standard action casting time if it lasts for 6 hours.

[Rleonardh]

Well I have 3 builds I pull out usually when I play, looking for a 4th.

Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/ Cleric 4

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4/ Arcane trickster 4/Unseen Seer 6

Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/Abjuration Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8.

So that's why I'm considering a druid wizard build.

Even floated a weird build in my head for a bit.
Cleric 3/wizard 3 or sorcerer 4/RSOP 2/Mystic Theurge 10/wizard or RSoP 1 or 2

Wizard gives
Cleric 9th level spells
Wizard 7th level spells

Sorcerer gives
Cleric 8th level spells
Sorcerer 7th level spells

Even thought about Favored Soul Sorcerer

As a dm I would allow early access, the other 2 games I'm in the dm disallow it, plus table over text.

[Particle_Man]

As a slight tweak you could go Elf Generalist Wizard Racial Substitution level 1 and Domain Wizard variant.

Mind you if Domain Wizard variants are allowed you could ask if gestalt characters are allowed in which case it is trivial to get 9th level spells on both sides by 17th level. :smallsmile:

[Rleonardh]

As a slight tweak you could go Elf Generalist Wizard Racial Substitution level 1 and Domain Wizard variant.

Mind you if Domain Wizard variants are allowed you could ask if gestalt characters are allowed in which case it is trivial to get 9th level spells on both sides by 17th level. :smallsmile:

Illusion and transformation look tasty.
Gestalt is not really op due to action economy but it does scare the crude out of many dm out there. I allow it but core only.

Can you imagine duskblade any caster..

[lylsyly]

Can you imagine duskblade any caster..

Sure Can!! I've Played Duskblade 20 // Archivist 20 several times. Fun in a can just like my beer ;-).

[Rleonardh]

Sure Can!! I've Played Duskblade 20 // Archivist 20 several times. Fun in a can just like my beer ;-).

That's just so wrong it's right 🤣

[lylsyly]

At our table with our houserules it's VERY right!

Six players:
Human Domain dipping Cloistered Ceric /// Paladin 20
Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard 20 /// Sorcerer/Abj Champ/Swiftblade
Gnome Druid 20 /// Fighter side taking wildshape improving PRCs
Halfling Martial Rogue 20 /// Bard/Sublime Chord
Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold Dragonfire Adept 20 /// Bard/Sublime Chord
Dwarf Duskblade 20 /// Archivist 20

PROS: With no such thing as class skills/pathfinder skill bundles/pathfinder feat progression/max HD every level/ +3 LA is free so use it up/1d4+1d6+8 abilities rolled 8 times-round all odd cores up one keep the best 6 and assign as you wish.

CONS: None of us are super optimizaers/The only metamagic is the sudden metamagic feats (but they are usable 3/day and you only have to know 3 before you can take quicken/the lowest CR you will encounter is CR3/all 7 of us has been at this for a long time (3 of us go back to 1975 when I got OD&D for my 16th birthday) and we know how to design encounters to within a hair of breaking the action economy.

All seven of us have our own homebrewed settings. Most of them are somewhat dark and gritty. We bend a lot of rules but we have a blast which is after all why we play. ​;-)

[gadren]

Not as “good” in the long run, BUT I’m awfully fond of mystic ranger with the sword of the arcane order feat. Full BAB plus fifth level mystic ranger and wizard spells.
The interesting thing is that it gains 5th level spells at 10th level, gaining new levels of spells at the same rate as a sorcerer and then just plateauing. Combined with its combat abilities, I feel like this makes it a superior theurge for games you know WON’T go into high levels.

[Arcanist]

No one mentioned Ur-Priest, I haven't seen anyone give a reason why nobody CAN mention Ur-Priest so I'm going to.

A Wizard 5 / Escalation Mage 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / +2 full arcane casting with Practiced Spellcaster has an effective caster level of 20 on both sides, casts 9th level spells earlier than everyone else (14th level can potentially have 9th level Divine spells, 15th level absolutely will have 9th level Divine spells) and is only 2 levels behind on their Wizard side.


While I agree that action economy is the name of the game, it is also important to not forget spell progression. A caster can, and usually is, simply better by virtue of just never being behind in spells. However, when playing a Mixed Spellcaster, you're going to need to need to make sacrifices where you can. In essence, you cannot be a Mixed Spellcaster without taking at least ONE caster level loss (except in a few very unique scenarios). But you DEFINITELY want to focus on your action economy. If you play things right and take Elder Giant Magic


Qualifying for this build is fairly easy. Escalation Mage gives you Bluff as a class skill and you have the other class skills by default as a result of just being a Wizard. If it matters, Escalation Mage has Arcana, Religion, and The Planes as Class skills. We are primarily dipping it for the +2 to Fortitude letting us qualify for Ur-Priest.

7th to 9th (Wizard 5 / Escalation Mage 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 1)
You are now behind 2 spell levels. That is your reward. Enjoy. This period in this build is absolutely abysmal. While your Fullcasting friends are now enjoying 4th and 5th level spells? You are, from 7th to 8th level you are nursing your Ur-Priest levels. It isn't until 9th where you can finally enjoy 4th level Wizard spells and 3rd level Cleric spells. You might be reconsidering your build in this moment. I know when I ran this exact build, I was considering the gains and losses to be made, but I stuck through it. For your 9th level feat, take Practiced Spellcaster and apply it to your Wizard. Half of it will apply to your Ur-Priest, bumping up its caster level. Now you cast at your ECL again. Hazzah...

10th-13th (Wizard 5 / Escalation Mage 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 5)
You are still behind in spell level, but not for long. At 10th level, your Wizard spellcasting remains the same (you gain an additional 4th level spell slot), but your Cleric spellcasting continues to rise. At this point, you potentially have upwards to 5th level spells, but you definitely have access to 4th level Cleric spells. Conversely, your Fullcasting counterparts get access to an additional 5th level spell slot. You are potentially on the same playing field in terms of spell power, but not likely.

At 11th level, they get access to 6th level spells, and you get access to an additional 5th level spell slot AND a fully dedicated 5th level spell slot and a potential 6th level spell slot.
At 12th, they will an extra 6th level spell slot, and you'll get access to 6th level spells and a fully dedicated 6th level spell slot and potentially a 7th level spell slot. You are now exactly on the same playing field as them, except you NOW have more spells than they can bring to an encounter per day. As previously stated, action economy is the name of the game.

At 13th level, you are now able to provide more magic and higher level spells than your Fullcasting counterparts. With access to your 7th level spell slot, and if you have somehow managed to get 26 or more Wisdom, you have access to an 8th level spell slot, at 13th level. A full 2 levels earlier than your Fullcasting counterparts.

14th+ (Wizard 5 / Escalation Mage 1-3 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7-10)
At this point, you are sitting pretty with 9th level Cleric spells (potentially) and 7th level Wizard spells. You will now begin throwing around Arcane Spellsurge as it specifically only effects your Arcane spells, leaving your Divine spells at their full casting time allowing you to get off two spells (one arcane, one divine) per round. If you've taken Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell), you can do the same for your Divine spells, but obviously not while Arcane Spellsurge is up, unless you are casting a full round action spell (Arcane Conversion maybe? Idk). Where as the rest of your party is enjoying an extra 7th level spell slot. You now provide more magic to the party than the dedicated fullcasters do individually and with your diverse toolkit, can solve most encounters with relative ease.

I feel that the reason nobody mentioned Ur-Priest was because it is kind of a powerful prestige class that can incidentally do the above mentioned strategy with almost no actual build up, but the OP did specify "better" and this, I feel, is technically better.

[Bphill561]

Another Gish with a reduced spell range.

Bard 1/ Fighter 1/ Bard 3/Spellsword 2/ Spell Dancer 2/ Divine Crusader 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan lyrist 9.

Needs sanctum spell for early entry. Gets you BAB 16, 9th level spells from Sorcerer/Bard, and 9th level spells from one domain list. Less of a selection but all of your spell casting is driven off Charisma.

[YellowJohn]

People seem to be trying to apply Precocious Apprentice (PA) to classes other than wizard, or taking it above first level.

PA requires an arcane caster level, and can only be taken as a first level character. Any build that uses PA with it must start with a level of arcane caster.

Wiz 1 (PA), Druid 3, MT 4, AH 10, MT 2 will get you there.

You could also in theory use Bamboo Spiritfolk (OA) to meet the trackless step requirement for AH (not technically RAW, consult your DM), which allows you to replace Druid with Archivist.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The catch here is action economy. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you've prepared 20 or 200 spells, it matters how many spells you can cast during the encounter.

A lot of good druid spells are hour/level buffs. Wizards have no shortage of those either.
And then there's all the great non-combat spells you can fill your slots with - divinations, long-term minionmancy, stuff like Fabricate, Teleports, Celerity, Contingency and so on.

There isn't really such a thing as "too many spell slots to use" unless you lack versatility in spells known, which is never a problem for druids and easily remedied for wizards.

[Jervis]

Druid 1/Wizard 3/Druid 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2

Let's you do practiced spellcaster at level 1 and 3 to max caster levels of both.

Just wondering if there anything better out there, other than full divine caster or arcane caster.

Druid 2/ Wizard 1(or vice versa)/ gets into Mystic Theurge via Illumian using Improved Sigil Krau. But getting into arcane hirophant requires more Druid levels.

[Darg]

Just wondering if there anything better out there, other than full divine caster or arcane caster.

Do what the DMG tells the DM to do and tailor PRCs to the campaign if they allow them at all. PRCs are templates meant to be modified and molded, not really to be taken as is most of the time.