Undead Sorlock Advice (2 level dip vs 1 level + Eldritch Adept)

[bsullivanp]

I'm in a Strahd/Homebrew campaign that goes to level 20.

I am currently playing as an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer and overall having fun, however, was very tempted to MC into Warlock. Rather than take the traditional Hexblade route, I was looking at Undead as a potential subclass. I know that will not be the optimal choice (losing armor proficiency, shield, shield spell) but it felt like a good fit for story flavor.

I have never really played late game before, nor have I ever MC'ed into Warlock, so hoping to get some advice whether 1) this is a good idea at all? and 2) if so, should I go 2 levels into Warlock (traditional Sorlock) or 1 level + Eldritch Adept ASI?

For context, the DM gave everyone a free feat at level 1, although we are now at level 8. However, he is letting me rebuild my PC to incorporate this change (so either a 6/2 Sorcerer/Warlock or a 7/1 with Eldritch Adept- Agonizing Blast).

I know that the "Sorlock" topic has been discussed here and elsewhere ad nauseum, but based on my specific, is this the right idea?

The only other consideration for me is that every other party member is currently multiclassed at least 1 level. I raise this because whenever I hear about MC into Warlock, I hear about the slower spell progression argument (i.e., you really feel the slower access to spell progression). But isn't that a RELATIVE argument, meaning you feel slower vs. other "pure" class party members? But if EVERYONE is multiclassing, isn't that argument lessened, if not moot?

In any case, would value any feedback or opinions. Thanks!

[tiornys]

I think most Sorlocks want 2 levels of Warlock to add Repelling Blast for at-will control enhancement, and Undead synergizes extremely well with this plan. I'd go with the 2 level dip.

[bsullivanp]

I think most Sorlocks want 2 levels of Warlock to add Repelling Blast for at-will control enhancement, and Undead synergizes extremely well with this plan. I'd go with the 2 level dip.

I guess I don't understand why Repelling Blast is necessary for that synergy? Its causing a fear effect whether I'm pushing them back or not, right?

[tiornys]

I guess I don't understand why Repelling Blast is necessary for that synergy? Its causing a fear effect whether I'm pushing them back or not, right?
I see at least three synergies. 1) pushing an enemy away from an ally + Frightened means they can't reengage your ally, 2) repeated push effects while an enemy is Frightened can get them far enough away that they have to dash/spend multiple rounds to reengage even if they shake off the Frightened condition, and 3) when threatened by an enemy, pushing them away + Frightened is much better than just making them Frightened. Remember that you only suffer disadvantage on ranged attacks from enemies next to you even if they have 10' or longer reach, so against these enemies you can step back a square and then try to push them out of threat range.

Basically, Frightened is a weaker status effect when the enemy is at melee range than when the enemy isn't engaged with anyone.

[bsullivanp]

I see at least three synergies. 1) pushing an enemy away from an ally + Frightened means they can't reengage your ally, 2) repeated push effects while an enemy is Frightened can get them far enough away that they have to dash/spend multiple rounds to reengage even if they shake off the Frightened condition, and 3) when threatened by an enemy, pushing them away + Frightened is much better than just making them Frightened. Remember that you only suffer disadvantage on ranged attacks from enemies next to you even if they have 10' or longer reach, so against these enemies you can step back a square and then try to push them out of threat range.

Basically, Frightened is a weaker status effect when the enemy is at melee range than when the enemy isn't engaged with anyone.

Ah, fantastic points. I never thought of it that way. Makes a ton of sense. See this feels like it would be useful for the entire campaign. Even though I delay my spells by 2 levels, I do still get 9th level spells, but this feels like a solid tactic for the entire 20 level campaign.

[Bobthewizard]

If you can rebuild your feat, I would recommend moderately armored once you add the warlock level. This gets you the medium armor and shield that you missed from being a Hexblade.

Don't worry about undead not getting the shield spell. Sorcerers get it and you can cast it with warlock slots if you want.

[bsullivanp]

If you can rebuild your feat, I would recommend moderately armored once you add the warlock level. This gets you the medium armor and shield that you missed from being a Hexblade.

Don't worry about undead not getting the shield spell. Sorcerers get it and you can cast it with warlock slots if you want.

I was holding out for Telekinetic (for the push-pull with Repelling Blast) + the 1/2 ASI gets me to 20 CHA at level 4 (DM gives us each a free feat at level 1, but is letting me retcon to this build).

I guess I had visions of a nice Wall of Fire and pushing and pulling an enemy back and forth through the thing like a molten car wash :).

[Keravath]

Sorlock should hold up well through to level 20. I've only played one into tier 3 so far but the only spell delay that seemed significant was delaying level 3 spells to character level 7. However, you are past that point at the moment so it should be less of an issue. The only other delay you might feel is level 9 spells to character level 19. However, that is probably most for the versatility provided by Wish in terms of casting any other level 8 or lower spell without material components.

I would go with 2 levels of warlock vs 1 level + ASI. The main reason to go 1+ASI is to get an extra ASI at level 19 but if you are going to spend that ASI on Eldritch Adept anyway - it seems pointless to go that route since 2 levels of warlock gets you an extra short rest spell slot and the two invocations. Agonizing blast essential but the other can be whatever fits your playstyle and there are a lot of choices. Repelling blast works really well since every time you hit you can push a target back 10 feet.

However, I haven't been very impressed with telekinetic, it can be useful pulling your party members out of melee so that they don't have to disengage but to move an opponent requires a save. It is only one 5' shove/turn since it uses your bonus action and a sorlock (especially at high level) often has much better uses for their bonus action (Agonizing blast + quickened agonizing blast) is a sorlock's bread and butter attack at high level when they have lots of sorcery points and spell slots to convert into sorcery points.

The wall of fire trick is a bit problematic because it is opaque - you can't pull things back through it because you can't see them. Wall of fire also only does damage on entry or ending their turn there so any creature that starts its turn their can move out. The best application wouldn't use telekinetic at all. If you cast wall of fire at the back of a bunch of opponents you can hit the ones at the back and then use repelling blast to push several front liners through the wall. If they run back to attack you they take damage on their turn then you can push them back through - it also blocks line of sight so enemy casters won't be able to cast spells that require sight (though the party is similarly limited).

The fear ability is limited to one target/turn but combined with repelling blast and the fact that they can't move towards the source of their fear - it will be effective at keeping them out of melee range. However, it does take your bonus action on the first turn to start the effect running which might interfere with the other uses of your bonus action (but undead warlock is pretty thematic for CoS/Ravenloft/Domains of Dread)

[Corran]

But isn't that a RELATIVE argument, meaning you feel slower vs. other "pure" class party members? But if EVERYONE is multiclassing, isn't that argument lessened, if not moot?
It's relative to what else you could have been doing against the enemies you'll be facing.


I see at least three synergies.
4) Push them inside a web/black tentacles. Being frigtened puts their ability checks at disadvantage.
Edit: If you get really lucky you might also be able to exploit the firghtened target's movement restriction to get more mileage out of something like a wall of fire too.

[bsullivanp]

It's relative to what else you could have been doing against the enemies you'll be facing.


4) Push them inside a web/black tentacles. Being frigtened puts their ability checks at disadvantage.
Edit: If you get really lucky you might also be able to exploit the firghtened target's movement restriction to get more mileage out of something like a wall of fire too.

These are all great points and are making me lean toward going Sorlock with a 2 level dip. The Repelling Blast just seems fun and very much on point for my Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (I would want to reflavor Eldritch Blast to Mind Blast or something).

I suppose the one question is, when to take those two levels? I was thinking of going 7/2, but delaying 5th level spells for AM Sorcerer feels tough (since I would be getting juicy ones like Synaptic Static, Modify Memory, and Telekinesis).

[tokek]

This suggestion might seem mad but for this particular campaign - have you considered the Undying patron? Why have a fear effect they might be immune to when you can set up so a bunch of the enemies can't even touch you unless they pass a Wisdom save? If you are just dipping a couple of levels for the Eldritch Blast to Repelling Blast enemies back into your control spells (a very valid choice) then the weakness of the higher level subclass abilities does not matter and the situational benefit of the 1st level ability happens to be your situation.

[Hael]

This is all just sidegrade stuff tbh. Mechanically its all very good.

If you are going to blast away, then 2 lvls of sorlock works just fine. The thing is, at some point very soon, high lvl spells are going to simply be way better than your cantrip spam, and as an aberrant mind, you have access to a very good array of spells and preparations.

So you need to decide what you want to be spending your turns doing. End of the day, repelling blast is great, but your blasts kill most things anyway, so does it matter if dead thing is moving 20 feet? It of course can synergize very well with a party member (a cleric for instance), so the 2 lvls might be optimal in that case. Ask yourself if the party has enough CC and utility... Is it only damage thats needed?

Optimization really requires knowledge of what the other party is doing and how they play.

[bsullivanp]

Optimization really requires knowledge of what the other party is doing and how they play.

My party consists of:
- An Arcane Trickster (with a dip into Wiz)
- A Moon Druid (with a dip into Barbarian)
- A Samurai (also with a dip into Barbarian)
- A Life Cleric

So, I think the party is largely martial in nature. Certainly plenty of spellcasting when needed, but a clear lean toward melee. So as a current Aberrant Mind Sorc, I think my PC fits into the Control role, but I would also argue that ranged damage should be high on the list to prioritize. I think that's a decent reason to go Sorlock, since I may be lessening my ability to control (but I would argue not by much with Psionic Spell list), but greatly improving my ranged damage capabilities.

[Hael]

My party consists of:
- An Arcane Trickster (with a dip into Wiz)
- A Moon Druid (with a dip into Barbarian)
- A Samurai (also with a dip into Barbarian)
- A Life Cleric


Yea your party has plenty of damage between the cleric, the rogue and the fighter Hopefully the moon druid plays his class correctly and doesn't instantly wildshape either, b/c your team needs hard cc.

Repelling blast is ok CC, but your team is going to really want high lvl control spells from you, potentially multiple turns in a row. I would talk with the druid on how he plans to play his class. If he's dropping plant/spike growth, then repelling blast synergizes well. But if he just wants to be a non CC damage wildshape form, you will need to adjust your role and consider opting for the higher lvl spells (which you will want in a hurry).

[bsullivanp]

Yea your party has plenty of damage between the cleric, the rogue and the fighter Hopefully the moon druid plays his class correctly and doesn't instantly wildshape either, b/c your team needs hard cc.

Repelling blast is ok CC, but your team is going to really want high lvl control spells from you, potentially multiple turns in a row. I would talk with the druid on how he plans to play his class. If he's dropping plant/spike growth, then repelling blast synergizes well. But if he just wants to be a non CC damage wildshape form, you will need to adjust your role and consider opting for the higher lvl spells (which you will want in a hurry).

The Druid prefers to mainly play up front in Wild Shape form, and rarely drops any CC at all. So I agree that CC will be a boon from my role. That said, it feels like we have a wall of melee characters and no one dropping nukes from the back row either. Even the cleric dropping a Spirit Guardian is largely a melee-range AOE damage spell.

Perhaps my best route would be to go a single level in Warlock + Eldritch Adept feat at Sorcerer level 8? That would reduce my spell progression lag, and still largely give me everything I wanted from the Warlock dip (story arc from subclass, EB, at least SOME SR slot refresh).

Now, my concern and disappointment is that I would have to choose between Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast. So, I feel I could get a blaster OR a more effective CC role out of the 1 level dip, but not BOTH. I actually am leaning toward Repelling Blast over Agonizing Blast, since me just dropping a battlefield control spell (Wall of Fire, Sickening Radiance, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc.) would be greatly enhanced, not just by putting an NPC into the AOE, but trying to KEEP them there. That said, if feels a bit sacrilege to get EB without taking Agonizing Blast.

Secondly, a 1-level dip wouldn't lose an ASI outright vs. a 2-level dip, but it would effectively push out the ASI 11 levels (level 12, 16, & 19 for 1-level dip, because level 8 is wasted on Feat vs. level 8, 12, & 16 for 2-level dip, because I lose the level 19 ASI).

Feel like I am walking myself in circles between doing nothing, taking a 1 level dip, or taking a 2 level dip. I suppose there is no wrong (or right) answer here and every decision is going to have a trade-off, but having never played a high level campaign for any PC, a sorcerer or warlock at ANY level, or multiclassed into a caster role, I just don't know how it FEELS to be 2 levels behind vs. 1 level. Feels really steep from levels 5-12 when you are getting something new seemingly every level, but with a Sorcerer only getting 15 spells known total in a 20 level campaign, clearly there are levels where they get no new progression in spells. So does that progression lag slow down at later levels?

[Keravath]

The Druid prefers to mainly play up front in Wild Shape form, and rarely drops any CC at all. So I agree that CC will be a boon from my role. That said, it feels like we have a wall of melee characters and no one dropping nukes from the back row either. Even the cleric dropping a Spirit Guardian is largely a melee-range AOE damage spell.

Perhaps my best route would be to go a single level in Warlock + Eldritch Adept feat at Sorcerer level 8? That would reduce my spell progression lag, and still largely give me everything I wanted from the Warlock dip (story arc from subclass, EB, at least SOME SR slot refresh).

Now, my concern and disappointment is that I would have to choose between Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast. So, I feel I could get a blaster OR a more effective CC role out of the 1 level dip, but not BOTH. I actually am leaning toward Repelling Blast over Agonizing Blast, since me just dropping a battlefield control spell (Wall of Fire, Sickening Radiance, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc.) would be greatly enhanced, not just by putting an NPC into the AOE, but trying to KEEP them there. That said, if feels a bit sacrilege to get EB without taking Agonizing Blast.

Secondly, a 1-level dip wouldn't lose an ASI outright vs. a 2-level dip, but it would effectively push out the ASI 11 levels (level 12, 16, & 19 for 1-level dip, because level 8 is wasted on Feat vs. level 8, 12, & 16 for 2-level dip, because I lose the level 19 ASI).

Feel like I am walking myself in circles between doing nothing, taking a 1 level dip, or taking a 2 level dip. I suppose there is no wrong (or right) answer here and every decision is going to have a trade-off, but having never played a high level campaign for any PC, a sorcerer or warlock at ANY level, or multiclassed into a caster role, I just don't know how it FEELS to be 2 levels behind vs. 1 level. Feels really steep from levels 5-12 when you are getting something new seemingly every level, but with a Sorcerer only getting 15 spells known total in a 20 level campaign, clearly there are levels where they get no new progression in spells. So does that progression lag slow down at later levels?

It is hard to tell what you will prefer to play.

I have played a lore bard X/warlock 2 to level 16 so far and, in my opinion, the two levels of warlock have provided lots of benefits. I really only noticed the delay in spells at level 5/6. 5 wasn't too bad since the character had just picked up 2nd level spells as a bard and there were some good choices. However, I really noticed not having 3rd level spells at level 6. However, after level 7 and access to 3rd level spells - I was usually able to find something good and useful to cast from the selection available - I never found myself desperate to have a particular 4th or 5th level spell when I had access to 3rd and 4th level choices.

I've also played a 1 fighter/2 warlock/X sorcerer to level 11 and didn't notice a problem but in that case, the character's personality is such that it wasn't a big deal - he just contributed whatever he had access to.

I am currently playing an Aberrant Mind sorcerer 5/ hexblade warlock 2 in RotFM and it has been a lot of fun. Level 6 was a bit tough without the 3rd level spells but level 7 has been better. I am looking forward to the level 6 sorcerer feature at level 8 since that should be loads of fun (subtle casting for sorcery points). The single target burst damage is very good combining agonizing blast with hex and twinned eldritch blast when single target damage is needed. However, I've also used various twinned spells like Enemies Abound to useful effect. I currently have twinned and quickened metamagics so my spell choices have leaned towards ones that make use of those.

If you are starting at 6 sorcerer/2 warlock then you may not notice the lack too much since you will play with the spells you have and make do in most situations. I haven't yet run into a situation where I really wish I had a fourth level spell - sorcerers get so few spells anyway that I likely won't have more than 1 or 2 4th level choices anyway. One that might come in handy would be twinned Banishment - but with access to 3rd level spells I likely have something else that would do in a pinch - plus you likely will have either fireball or hypnotic pattern (possibly both if you can spare the spells known) for damage and crowd control options (also, since I think you mentioned you are playing CoS - Banishment might function differently anyway).

Anyway, it is impossible for someone else to figure out how you will feel about the character when you are playing it. I have usually found a couple of levels of warlock really complements any charisma based character - it slows down spell progression but it can bring a lot of options to the table.

e.g. 2 levels of hexblade warlock - medium armor + shield + martial weapon proficiency - instantly better AC compared to mage armor and no need to boost dex to improve it - start with 14 and leave it there - take the booming blade cantrip, have a hex weapon to use charisma for attacks, and you even have a decent melee attack if forced to use it ... 2 short rest 1st level spell slots ... 4 additional 1st level spells known - shield, hex, protection from good and evil, even comprehend languages if no one else has it - can all be good choices and expand what you have available. Twinned protection from good and evil can be good when fighting undead for example - two invocations (agonizing blast + something else ... repelling blast, devils sight, mask of many faces .. lots of good choices depending on what type of character you are playing), hexblade's curse - adds proficiency to damage against one target/sr at the cost of a bonus action. At level 9 with 20 charisma you can cast AB and do d10+9 damage on each one against that one target, twin to do it again. At level 11 this becomes 2 x 3 (d10+9) with twinned AB - and by level 9 you will have enough sorcery points to keep it up for a while - you will do more single target damage than most of the melee characters and this is all while you concentrate on some twinned control spell you cast in the first round.

The trade off for all of this is delaying access to higher level spells by 2 character levels - and that is significant if there is a particular spell at the next level that could be game changing - but that also assumes you don't already have a spell that might be just as appropriate.

P.S. The fey touched feat can be really good if it fits your build too. Misty step is just really useful and if you pick hex as the first level spell it frees up another pick from the warlock list.

P.P.S. If you want ridiculous levels of damage - replace hex by spirit shroud at character level 11 (9 sorcerer) cast with a 5th level slot and blast creatures with AB from within 10 feet (Xbow expert might be a good feat at some point if you want to use that tactic). However, by the second round of combat each AB does d10+2d8+5 ... quicken it and you have 6x (d10 +2d8 +5) if you are within 10' of the target. (Probably not the best choice of spell slot use though :) )

[Miele]

At level 9 with 20 charisma you can cast AB and do d10+9 damage on each one against that one target, twin to do it again.

Just nitpicking, but you don't twin EB, you quicken it to cast it as a bonus action and can cast another as an action.

Aside from that, I agree with you, 2 levels of warlock add a LOT to a class that is starved for choices, with an extremely limited number of spells known. Short rest recovery slots, plus invocations and extra subclass benefits are amazing. Personally I'd go warlock 3 for the pact, maybe not right away: Tome if you want rituals and more cantrips (opens up the whole spectrum of funky things you can do with Mold Earth, Shape Water, just to name two), Chain if you want a powerful familiar, but imo it's less useful in the long run. Pact of the blade would need a very specific build to make it work, so I'd ignore it.

[Keravath]

Just nitpicking, but you don't twin EB, you quicken it to cast it as a bonus action and can cast another as an action.

Aside from that, I agree with you, 2 levels of warlock add a LOT to a class that is starved for choices, with an extremely limited number of spells known. Short rest recovery slots, plus invocations and extra subclass benefits are amazing. Personally I'd go warlock 3 for the pact, maybe not right away: Tome if you want rituals and more cantrips (opens up the whole spectrum of funky things you can do with Mold Earth, Shape Water, just to name two), Chain if you want a powerful familiar, but imo it's less useful in the long run. Pact of the blade would need a very specific build to make it work, so I'd ignore it.

Oops sorry - meant quicken :)