Fear spell in enclosed cavern; best counterplay?

[x3n0n]

So I'm gaming out an encounter, and I'm thinking that the fear spell dominates it.

Environment: dimly lit icy cavern embedded in mountainside, one entrance, roughly circular, 100' in diameter, nothing that counts as full cover.

Enemy: solo Young White Dragon (of note: lots of fly/walk speed, 20' burrow speed (!), melee attacks, 30' cone breath weapon, +3 Wis save, no legendary resistance)

Party: any caster with the fear spell and a decent DC, and at least one ranged attacker (which could be the caster).


Each creature in a 30-foot cone must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or drop whatever it is holding and become frightened for the duration.

While frightened by this spell, a creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest available route on each of its turns, unless there is nowhere to move. If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn't have line of sight to you, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature.

If the fear caster can get between the dragon and the doorway and the dragon fails the save, does the dragon have anything better than "burrow into the wall to create full cover and wait to succeed on the Wis save"?
If you remove the burrow speed, is there any counterplay at all?

Party tactics, in case it's not obvious: stay at least 35' away, shoot repeatedly.

[da newt]

Most white dragon lairs include huge vertical spaces and high shelves that they sleep on - aka cover and a hidey place that is very hard to get to.

Only a truly dumb creature would have only one entrance/exit to it's lair so that it could be trapped within it's own sanctuary (INT 6, WIS 11, but a survival expert), but this guy has a burrowing speed, so no big deal. If it fails it's save it runs/flies/burrows. Unless it has a magical burrowing method that disintegrates the soil/ice/what not, burrowing does not leave a great big open tunnel like in mine craft, so it's very hard to follow or see once it's digging. It escapes.

Then it's just a timing game - wait to be un-afraid and seek revenge on the intruders. Whites are notorious for holding a grudge and tracking down folks to get their revenge.

[JLandan]

So I'm gaming out an encounter, and I'm thinking that the fear spell dominates it.

Environment: dimly lit icy cavern embedded in mountainside, one entrance, roughly circular, 100' in diameter, nothing that counts as full cover.

Enemy: solo Young White Dragon (of note: lots of fly/walk speed, 20' burrow speed (!), melee attacks, 30' cone breath weapon, +3 Wis save, no legendary resistance)

Party: any caster with the fear spell and a decent DC, and at least one ranged attacker (which could be the caster).



If the fear caster can get between the dragon and the doorway and the dragon fails the save, does the dragon have anything better than "burrow into the wall to create full cover and wait to succeed on the Wis save"?
If you remove the burrow speed, is there any counterplay at all?

Party tactics, in case it's not obvious: stay at least 35' away, shoot repeatedly.

If the caster remained visible to the dragon while it was burrowing, the dragon could only burrow straight away from the caster. The dragon would continue straight until it couldn't see the caster or it encountered some blockage.

Waiting to succeed on a Wis save is meta knowledge and the dragons behavior should not be adjudicated by that. While it is under the Fear, its sole desire should be to escape the source of the fear.

[x3n0n]

Unless it has a magical burrowing method that disintegrates the soil/ice/what not, burrowing does not leave a great big open tunnel like in mine craft, so it's very hard to follow or see once it's digging. It escapes.

That's interesting! I just discovered that I don't know how burrowing works, and a couple of quick checks in PHB Ch 8 and 9 didn't show me anything obvious. Is there a RAW for it somewhere?

I thought that burrowing *did* leave behind an open tunnel, by contrast to Earth Elemental's Earth Glide: "The elemental can burrow through nonmagical, unworked earth and stone. While doing so, the elemental doesn't disturb the material it moves through."

If it really does pile up most of the rubble behind it, then it probably breaks line of sight within a round or two of burrowing (and can come back VERY angry before long).


If the caster remained visible to the dragon while it was burrowing, the dragon could only burrow straight away from the caster. The dragon would continue straight until it couldn't see the caster or it encountered some blockage.

Why would it have to be "straight"? It has to Dash and get away, but it's not clear to me (for example) that a creature under the effects of fear in a straight hallway with side hallways or rooms can't choose to turn down another corridor to get away. A burrowing creature is creating its own corridor, and I figure it can turn while doing so.

[sandmote]

That's interesting! I just discovered that I don't know how burrowing works, and a couple of quick checks in PHB Ch 8 and 9 didn't show me anything obvious. Is there a RAW for it somewhere? I don't thinks there's a raw listing, but I think Earth Glide means there isn't a path of roiled or compacted material to show the creature's passage. Contrast the Purple Worm's Tunneler: "The worm can burrow through solid rock at half its burrow speed and leaves a 10-foot-diameter tunnel in its wake."

I'd expect the non-specific type of burrowing would leave a partially collapsed tunnel in the creature's wake, which another burrowing creature can follow but isn't wide enough to simply squeeze through.


Why would it have to be "straight"? It has to Dash and get away, but it's not clear to me (for example) that a creature under the effects of fear in a straight hallway with side hallways or rooms can't choose to turn down another corridor to get away. A burrowing creature is creating its own corridor, and I figure it can turn while doing so. The text of the spell says the creature must "move away from you by the safest available route," so an affected creature would likely duck into a corridor for the purposes of keeping the caster from knowing where it is.

My actual response to the described scenario is that the dragon would likely burrow out of sight and keep going until it calms down (as a result of making tis save, if that wasn't clear) and then attempt to return to fight the party. "Safest available route" is probably also less than one round from breathable air, so it should be able to emerge as soon as the spell wears off. Main difference between this and the metagamed response is that the dragon will keep moving away from the caster until the spell wears off and then either emerge farther away or spend a turn digging back into an ambushing position.

[JLandan]

Ducking around a corner isn't moving away. It is ceasing to move away and moving to the side, which it is not allowed to do unless line of sight is broken AND it makes a save, moving to the side is the only route, or moving away would be more dangerous than moving to the side.

Burrowing movement is incredibly unclear RAW. Nothing is said one way or the other about leaving a tunnel or filling in behind. Which leaves it up to the DM. As a DM, I would go by the substrate; sand and mud would fill in; ice would leave a tunnel; and dirt could go either way. Stone would leave a tunnel, but stone is not a burrowing option. Though some creatures have a tunneling feature that allows it.

[x3n0n]

Ducking around a corner isn't moving away. It is ceasing to move away and moving to the side, which it is not allowed to do unless line of sight is broken AND it makes a save, moving to the side is the only route, or moving away would be more dangerous than moving to the side.

That's interesting too! If there is a party of people behind me, one of whom I am deathly afraid of, and they are shooting arrows at me (each of which travels in a straight line), then turning sideways and continuing to move away (slightly less slowly, but still away) seems less dangerous, no?

For example, assume I start 30' away from the source of fear, and I Dash and then go 40' down the hallway (20' move remaining). Now I'm 70' away and there is an opportunity to make a 90-degree right turn. If I continue 20' down this hallway, I will be 90' away and still have unfriendly bows pointed at me. If I run 20' down the perpendicular hallway, I will end up sqrt(70^2 + 20^2) = 75ish feet away, which is still definitely away, and seems less dangerous, what with the lack of hailing arrows. It's not clear to me that the fleeing creature doesn't have that discretion.

[Unoriginal]

White Dragons are often thought of as dim, but they are basically the best hunters of dragonkin.

If the dragon is Frightened, they will burrow to escape, and keep doing so. Then they will come back.

White Dragons know patience when they are hunting. Not to mention the dragon can dig under the PCs, letting them fall into ice-shards filled pits when they walk into the suddenly-thin floor. Or they can dig out the ceiling and let huge chunks fall on the PCs. Or they can pop out of a wall, breath on the PCs, and leave.

Again, and again, and again.

[kazaryu]

That's interesting too! If there is a party of people behind me, one of whom I am deathly afraid of, and they are shooting arrows at me (each of which travels in a straight line), then turning sideways and continuing to move away (slightly less slowly, but still away) seems less dangerous, no?

For example, assume I start 30' away from the source of fear, and I Dash and then go 40' down the hallway (20' move remaining). Now I'm 70' away and there is an opportunity to make a 90-degree right turn. If I continue 20' down this hallway, I will be 90' away and still have unfriendly bows pointed at me. If I run 20' down the perpendicular hallway, I will end up sqrt(70^2 + 20^2) = 75ish feet away, which is still definitely away, and seems less dangerous, what with the lack of hailing arrows. It's not clear to me that the fleeing creature doesn't have that discretion.

'safest available route' imlies the creature has the discretion. but yeah..i mean, it'll burrow.

[Valmark]

Ducking around a corner isn't moving away. It is ceasing to move away and moving to the side, which it is not allowed to do unless line of sight is broken AND it makes a save, moving to the side is the only route, or moving away would be more dangerous than moving to the side.

That's not quite true- if we assume I (caster) am in the corridor with you and the corridor goes in a straight line then ducking to the side will still move you away from me.

The caveat to that would be if the corridor is yes, straight, but inclined to a side and the side area goes the opposite way making you actually get nearer to the caster if we ignore walls in the middle.


Waiting to succeed on a Wis save is meta knowledge and the dragons behavior should not be adjudicated by that. While it is under the Fear, its sole desire should be to escape the source of the fear.

Or is it? Of course the dragon doesn't know that it's making a Wis save, but rolling wis saves has a meaning in-game.

Even before wondering wether the dragon would be able to guess why's it scared.

[Bobthewizard]

Stone would leave a tunnel

Where does the displaced stone go, then? Moles leave tunnels by pushing dirt to the surface. Without purposely doing that, wouldn't the extra dirt/sand/stone always end up behind you, blocking the tunnel?

I don't think it leaves a tunnel unless it specifically says so.

Most burrowing = disturbed but no tunnel
Earth glide = not even disturbed
Purple worm = tunnel left behind

[JLandan]

Where does the displaced stone go, then? Moles leave tunnels by pushing dirt to the surface. Without purposely doing that, wouldn't the extra dirt/sand/stone always end up behind you, blocking the tunnel?

I don't think it leaves a tunnel unless it specifically says so.

Most burrowing = disturbed but no tunnel
Earth glide = not even disturbed
Purple worm = tunnel left behind

If that's how you'd rule it, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't put too much logic towards burrowing anyway. It's based more on Bugs Bunny cartoons than any real burrowing animal. Adult White Dragon burrow speed 30 feet, in a six second round. That's 60 feet if they dash too. 10 feet in a second is a good walking speed.

Line of sight is dodgey on creatures with blindsight too. Just being around a corner may not be enough to force a save if the dragon still senses the fear source. It would be a DM call I suppose.

[da newt]

There is no RAW (that I know of) for burrowing, however go dig a hole - notice that the pile of dirt you create takes up more space than the hole and that you have to move the earth somewhere to proceed. Now keep digging so that your hole becomes a tunnel - notice that the further you tunnel to more time you spend moving dirt out of the tunnel.

Burrowing does not magically make matter disappear (except in special cases where it explicitly does defy physics -> purple worms).

[Xervous]

Given that’s it’s a white dragon with a burrow speed what’s stopping it from playing reverse whack a mole with its breath weapon? What’s the caster going to do, ready spells?

[sandmote]

however go dig a hole - notice that the pile of dirt you create takes up more space than the hole and that you have to move the earth somewhere to proceed. Now keep digging so that your hole becomes a tunnel - notice that the further you tunnel to more time you spend moving dirt out of the tunnel. Generally this happens because digging up the dirt leaves more/larger airholes in the dug up soil (lowering the density). You can reverse the effect by compacting the material more than it already was; this is most obvious when walking over snow, where you can typically just compact the material underfoot to clear your way. If you're making sure your tunnel will remain clear after your passage you will likely still need to dump some material out of the tunnel, but you can make the volume of that material less than the volume of the tunnel.


Burrowing does not magically make matter disappear (except in special cases where it explicitly does defy physics -> purple worms). I assume the matter generally disappears into the worm's gut, and the text just doesn't mention the purple worm's castings.

[Frogreaver]

If the caster remained visible to the dragon while it was burrowing, the dragon could only burrow straight away from the caster.

I don't see anything in the spell that would indicate this to be true.

[JLandan]

I don't see anything in the spell that would indicate this to be true.

Fear:
You project a phantasmal image of a creature's worst fears. Each creature in a 30-foot cone must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or drop whatever it is holding and become frightened for the duration.

While frightened by this spell, a creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest available route on each of its turns, unless there is nowhere to move. If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn't have line of sight to you, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature.

Emphasis mine.

You may rule that the creature doesn't have to move straight away. But only moving to keep the same distance is not moving away. And sneaking around a corner to avoid line of sight when a safe route away is available (i.e. burrowing away), is using meta-game knowledge of the spell to avoid the effect of the spell.

Use of meta-game knowledge may be allowed at your table, but I wouldn't allow a player to do it and I wouldn't have a monster do it.

[Psyren]

So I'm gaming out an encounter, and I'm thinking that the fear spell dominates it.

Environment: dimly lit icy cavern embedded in mountainside, one entrance, roughly circular, 100' in diameter, nothing that counts as full cover.

Enemy: solo Young White Dragon (of note: lots of fly/walk speed, 20' burrow speed (!), melee attacks, 30' cone breath weapon, +3 Wis save, no legendary resistance)

Party: any caster with the fear spell and a decent DC, and at least one ranged attacker (which could be the caster).



If the fear caster can get between the dragon and the doorway and the dragon fails the save, does the dragon have anything better than "burrow into the wall to create full cover and wait to succeed on the Wis save"?
If you remove the burrow speed, is there any counterplay at all?

Party tactics, in case it's not obvious: stay at least 35' away, shoot repeatedly.

I'd invoke the "unless there is nowhere to move" clause. If the Dragon can't get away, then it's no longer forced to take the Dash action, allowing it to fight back (or escape by other means.)

[JLandan]

I'd invoke the "unless there is nowhere to move" clause. If the Dragon can't get away, then it's no longer forced to take the Dash action, allowing it to fight back (or escape by other means.)

I suppose a lot would depend on how much ice there was before it hit stone, and whether the dragon would know this. The dragon may only burrow as far away as possible and then have to turn due to stone in the way. Whatever its possible movement, it would take the safest route away or stop where it is. It can't turn and fight until it makes a save or the duration is up.