Why do dragons need all that gold, anyway?

[-Sentinel-]

Do some of them find a way to spend it somehow?

Is gold a status symbol among dragons?

Or are dragons just compulsive hoarders who like to collect shiny things?

[Fyraltari]

Do some of them find a way to spend it somehow?

Is gold a status symbol among dragons?

Or are dragons just compulsive hoarders who like to collect shiny things?

Dragons hoarding gold that they cannot ever spend is such an excellent metaphor for greed. Like, all know there's a point where "more money" just becomes utterly meaningless.

Other than that, I know at least one comic where a dragon hoards gold to attract greedy humans to her lair so she doesn't have to hunt for food.

[Zevox]

Depends upon the story/setting, but that third one is the most common explanation, I believe. I know that was the explanation for Smaug in The Hobbit, for instance - he just loved treasure, especially gold, and hoarded it for its own sake.

[DavidSh]

The earliest versions of the idea of dragons guarding gold that I can find are the dragon guarding the Golden Fleece, the dragon Fafnir, and the dragon in Beowulf.

With the Golden Fleece, the treasure came first, and the dragon was brought in to guard it. Fafnir was originally a dwarf (or maybe a giant), who acquired a treasure, and thought transforming into a dragon would be the best way for him to guard it. The Beowulf dragon just hides out in a barrow, that still has the original grave goods. (All the barrows I have ever been in have already been cleaned out.)

[Kantaki]

One explanation I remember reading somewhere is that dragons need magic to sustain themselves.
Gold is a great conductor for magic, so sleeping on a bed of shiny stuff makes it easier to gather the energies dragons need to live.

So when those pesky adventurers come calling they're not just interrupting the dragon's beauty sleep (which they really need. Badly.) but also their meal.
Rude.

On the plus side, free snacks.
And they tend to deliver more shiny things with means easier gathering the magic background radiation.
So, it's not all bad?

[Rater202]

The underbelly is where the scales are the tiniest and softest. Sleeping upon a pile of gold and jewels results in some sticking to the belly and shoring up the defenses of the one place where many dragons are vulnerable.

[Millstone85]

One explanation I remember reading somewhere is that dragons need magic to sustain themselves.
Gold is a great conductor for magic, so sleeping on a bed of shiny stuff makes it easier to gather the energies dragons need to live.Fizban's Treasury of Dragons has a similar plutomantic take on it.

The larger the hoard, the more the surrounding region is magically warped in the dragon's image. That includes attracting and multiplicating whatever creatures the dragon regards as preys or minions.

[Grim Portent]

There's a theory that the modern dragon's fondness for gold traces back to celtic and norse/germanic myths, which were themselves inspired by the tendency for various snakes to sleep in burrows, under logs or tree stumps and other places that are convenient places to hide small amounts of treasure.

So a guy in northern europe would come into some coins, or some other valuable item, through plunder, stealing or just a favorable trade deal, and decide to hide them somewhere out of the way*. Normal everyday behaviour really. So they go find a spot that's memorable and already has a natural hidey hole, like a hollow tree or the burrow of a water vole, and stick their stash in it with the plan to come back for it in a few days or weeks. They come back and usually can fish it out just fine, no worries, but sometimes a snake has decided to take a nap in the hole and gets disturbed when some ******* starts rummaging around and does what snakes do when frightened; run or bite. People being people the shock of seeing or being bitten by a snake on the rare occasion that it happens sticks in the mind and gets blown out of proportion, then becomes a myth of serpents guarding treasure -> becomes giant serpents guarding treasure -> becomes dragons hoarding gold.

So if we get properly reudctionist about it, dragons hoard gold because snakes like to sleep in dark, damp places that humans like to hide things in.


*The slightly outdated near-modern version is the porn magazine stash in the woods. Which means a dragon from the mid 1900s would be guarding a bunch of nudie mags rather than gold.

[Mechalich]

The earliest versions of the idea of dragons guarding gold that I can find are the dragon guarding the Golden Fleece, the dragon Fafnir, and the dragon in Beowulf.

With the Golden Fleece, the treasure came first, and the dragon was brought in to guard it. Fafnir was originally a dwarf (or maybe a giant), who acquired a treasure, and thought transforming into a dragon would be the best way for him to guard it. The Beowulf dragon just hides out in a barrow, that still has the original grave goods. (All the barrows I have ever been in have already been cleaned out.)

The through line in Anglophone literature is definitely Beowulf - Tolkien - D&D - everyone else. Smaug's habit of lying on a giant pile of treasure and his anger at having even a small piece of it stolen are clearly taken from Beowulf, a text with a very heavy influence on Tolkien's work. Smaug then, was clearly one of if not the primary inspirations for how dragons behave in D&D.

Outside of D&D, dragons accumulating treasure hoards is fairly uncommon.

[Anonymouswizard]

They're all incredibly skilled diviners, and are waiting for the turning of the ages to commence and modern society to rise.

Then they buy stocks in major corporations and rule the world.

[GeoffWatson]

In one of the 2nd edition settings, Dragons needed a lot of treasure to "level up" to a new age category.

[Precure]

They're collectors of human artifacts. Gold is simply easier on the eyes.

[Fyraltari]

In one of the 2nd edition settings, Dragons needed a lot of treasure to "level up" to a new age category.

Damn, their growth is tied to their wealth? Gen Z dragons are ****ed.

[hamishspence]

In Robert Asprin's Myth-Adventures books, it's mentioned at one point that young dragons teethe on gold (it being a soft, non-toxic metal) and old ones keep it around as a kind of security blanket, invoking pleasant childhood memories.

[Eldan]

They're all incredibly skilled diviners, and are waiting for the turning of the ages to commence and modern society to rise.

Then they buy stocks in major corporations and rule the world.

Ah, yes. Lofwyr.

[Chronos]

Tolkien was no doubt a major influence on the modern view, but so was C. S. Lewis. There's a passage in Voyage of the Dawn Treader where a human finds a dragon hoard (with the original dragon dead or otherwise gone), and the treasure curses him to turn into a dragon as well.

[hamishspence]

There's a passage in Voyage of the Dawn Treader where a human finds a dragon hoard (with the original dragon dead or otherwise gone), and the treasure curses him to turn into a dragon as well.

The original dragon died of (probably) old age before his eyes (while taking a drink from the nearby pond), and then he went into the cave, found the treasure, gloated over it for a bit, fell asleep there, and woke as a dragon himself.

Possibly a derivation of the Fafnir "dwarf is so greedy that he turns into dragon to guard his treasure" thing.

Rick Riordan's Magnus Chase series, which derives heavily from Norse mythology, had something similar only with an elf.

[snowblizz]

Tolkien was no doubt a major influence on the modern view, but so was C. S. Lewis. There's a passage in Voyage of the Dawn Treader where a human finds a dragon hoard (with the original dragon dead or otherwise gone), and the treasure curses him to turn into a dragon as well.

Lewis and Tolkien were friends and shared their stories with each other (and eventually world views). It's probably not a coincidence that they have similar ideas kicking around (and also drawing from the same source material).

[LibraryOgre]

In one of the 2nd edition settings, Dragons needed a lot of treasure to "level up" to a new age category.


Damn, their growth is tied to their wealth? Gen Z dragons are ****ed.

Council of Wyrms. (From the Boxed Set (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17357/Council-Of-Wyrms-2e?affiliate_id=315505)) (Standalone Hardcover (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17026/Campaign-Option-Council-of-Wyrms-Setting-2e?affiliate_id=315505))

Notable as being early official rules for Half-Dragons, though a lot different from what they became.

[Forum Explorer]

They're all incredibly skilled diviners, and are waiting for the turning of the ages to commence and modern society to rise.

Then they buy stocks in major corporations and rule the world.

Isn't that literally what happens in Shadowrun?

[Eldan]

Isn't that literally what happens in Shadowrun?

Yup.Dragons run the Triads, several nations (the Phillipines, Amazonia and South Africa, at least and there's one on the council of Tir, too), two or three run megacorps, from what I remember and one was president of the US for a while.

[LibraryOgre]

Yup.Dragons run the Triads, several nations (the Phillipines, Amazonia and South Africa, at least and there's one on the council of Tir, too), two or three run megacorps, from what I remember and one was president of the US for a while.

A very short while. (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Dunkelzahn) He was assassinated on the night of his inauguration. He might have committed magical suicide as a means of protecting people from extraplanar monsters, not been assassinated; even in human shape, it's gonna be damn hard to kill a 15,000 year old great dragon.

[runeghost]

Here are three different, but pretty classic (to varying degrees) answers:

1) In various Norse and Germanic myths, either gold is cursed and those who covet it are transformed into dragons, or the greed for gold transformed and corrupted them itself. In which case, it's the other way around: the gold makes the dragon.

2) In Tolkien, Morgoth (Sauron's original boss) attempted to corrupt and master the world by putting his own power into it, similar to what Sauron later did with the One Ring on a far grander scale. In the Histories of Middle Earth, if I recall correctly, Tolkien wrote that gold had a great deal of "Morgoth-essence" in it, and that was what caused dragons (originally Morgoth's creations) to particularly covet it.

3) In Barbara Hambly's Dragon's Bane (1985), pure gold (which dragons cannot themselves make) is described almost like a drug; its presence is overwhelmingly beautiful and exalting music and memory to the dragons.

[Noldo]

I ran into funny variation:

The dragons do not collect gold, and would never be found sleeping on top of a hoard of gold, but gold is the one material their digestive system cannot break down and thus there are piles of gold wherever dragons have spent any longer period of time.

[Fyraltari]

I ran into funny variation:

The dragons do not collect gold, and would never be found sleeping on top of a hoard of gold, but gold is the one material their digestive system cannot break down and thus there are piles of gold wherever dragons have spent any longer period of time.

Why are they eating gold? And why are they sleeping on their own excrement?

[Traab]

Ah, yes. Lofwyr.

It was started by a dragon couple Bilow, and his mate Selhi

[KorvinStarmast]

It is bait to bring in snacks (adventurers thieves, etc).

[DavidSh]

It is bait to bring in snacks (adventurers thieves, etc).
Ah, like Lord Dunsany's Gibbelins, of whom he wrote:

The Gibbelins eat, as is well known, nothing less good than man. Their evil tower is joined to Terra Cognita, to the lands we know, by a bridge. Their hoard is beyond reason; avarice has no use for it; they have a separate cellar for emeralds and a separate cellar for sapphires; they have filled a hole with gold and dig it up when they need it. And the only use that is known for their ridiculous wealth is to attract to their larder a continual supply of food. In times of famine they have even been known to scatter rubies abroad, a little trail of them to some city of Man, and sure enough their larders would soon be full again.

[Psyren]

3e Draconomicon essentially shrugs and says "nobody knows for sure" before positing some theories:


Why do Dragons Hoard Treasure?
...
Some sages equate a dragon's desire to amass treasure with the behavior of jackdaws, pack rats, and other creatures that instinctively hoard bright, shiny objects. This observation is not without merit, because no dragon seems entirely able to explain why it wants to hoard treasure. Unlike a jackdaw or a pack rat, however, a dragon craves items of monetary value, not just shiny objects. Dragons are well aware of the value of their possessions. When faced with a selection of treasure, even the most virtuous dragon would like to take it all. If it has to choose, the dragon tends to favor the most valuable items. Dragons show a preference for items with intrinsic monetary value over items that are valuable because of their magic.

The sheer, primal joy a dragon derives from its hoard is nearly indescribable, In unguarded moments, a dragon will roll in a pile of treasure like a pig wallowing in the mud on a hot day, and the dragon seems to derive a similar degree of physical pleasure from the action.

A dragon also derives immense intellectual satisfaction from its hoard. It keeps an accurate mental inventory of the items in it, and a running total of the hoard's total monetary value.

[Fyraltari]

Of note, in The Elder Scrolls Adventure: Redguard, the dragon Nafaalilargus (Nafahlar) guards a hoard of treasure, but it isn't his. He's just been tasked to protect the local Imperial Province's treasury.

[Ramza00]

In greek myth besides the golden fleece

Ladon guards the golden apples
Python guards the center of the earth
Ismenian dragon is the progeny of Ares meant to guard a sacred spring near future city of Thebes

Note in Greek the name for Dragon is Drake specifically drákōn (from derkomai, "to see," the root of the English term, "dragon") Thus a Dragon literally means "to watch over something", to guard it in Greek.

----

Arguably you can go back further where cattle and goat raiding myths, and often a chaos god which was a serpent / dragon / hydra / naga is tied to such herd animals being stolen at

----

Likewise while not mythical pretty much everywhere the silk road touched there were myths of Gryphons guarding gold. Not specific myths though, just dozens of imagery captured in dozens of cultures.

[pendell]

They're all incredibly skilled diviners, and are waiting for the turning of the ages to commence and modern society to rise.

Then they buy stocks in major corporations and rule the world.

Shadowrun (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Dragons), in other words.

I cannot tell you how sad I am that setting does not get more love.

ETA: I see others have made the same point. In any case, in Tolkien's stories the dragons Smaug and Glaurung are Greed personified and thus collect purely for the sake of collecting. I assume if they lived in the modern world they would also collect rare Magic: The Gathering and Pokemon, create the greatest decks ever yet never play a round, for fear they might lose one.

I hadn't heard the theory of snakes hiding in dark holes where humans hide treasure; it's an interesting thought.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[snowblizz]

I assume if they lived in the modern world they would also collect rare Magic: The Gathering and Pokemon, create the greatest decks ever yet never play a round, for fear they might lose one.


Suddenly the scarcity of modern GPU chips is making perfect sense. Dragon hoards.

[MCerberus]

Suddenly the scarcity of modern GPU chips is making perfect sense. Dragon hoards.

My god, if they have a mining rig, that's recursive hording.

[Eldan]

Ah yes. The elusive Cryptodragon.

[Brother Oni]

In the anime/cartoon Flight of Dragons, the dragons need some form of soft, non-flammable bedding to sleep on and gold turns out to be the most convenient non-toxic material.

The younger dragons still have an 'OOH SHINEY!' mentality, so the more elaborate gold pieces they find, the better.

[Vahnavoi]

Treasure for dragon is self-important. Treasure is life, treasure is meaning. The bigger the treasure, the more meaning. They don't need treasure for other things - other things exist to acquire more treasure!

[Imbalance]

Allegorical covetousness - the dragons don't need gold, but they want it. They want yours. They want you to not have it so that it can be theirs. It is not currency, though the more a dragon has, the more covetousness is evoked in their peers, a desired side-effect. Gaining gold is less about being compulsive than it is about the lucre of simply being a dragon, the wages owed for existing. It already belongs to them, shortlife, so hand it over.

[No brains]

I remember something from one of the 3.5 books, might have been Draconomicon, that dragons can use their hoard to become a genus loci. So basically it's a powerful spell component. Same reason why a lot of things would hoard gold.

[Peelee]

In one of the 2nd edition settings, Dragons needed a lot of treasure to "level up" to a new age category.


Damn, their growth is tied to their wealth? Gen Z dragons are ****ed.

Do not weep, for they are immortal.

[Scarlet Knight]

Allegorical covetousness - the dragons don't need gold, but they want it. They want yours. They want you to not have it so that it can be theirs. It is not currency, though the more a dragon has, the more covetousness is evoked in their peers, a desired side-effect. Gaining gold is less about being compulsive than it is about the lucre of simply being a dragon, the wages owed for existing. It already belongs to them, shortlife, so hand it over.

So capturing a Princess is like a trophy wife.

[Fyraltari]

Do not weep, for they are immortal.
I know a few knights who might disagree with that.

[Peelee]

I know a few knights who might disagree with that.

You know them? Personally?

Knight propaganda, I tells ya! It's all marketing for them.

[Fyraltari]

You know them? Personally?

Knight propaganda, I tells ya! It's all marketing for them.

Knights? Marketing? Pretty sure markets are for peasants.

[Traab]

They dont need all that gold. The problem is, they keep getting worshipped by kobolds who think the only way their "patron" will protect them is if they make frequent offerings. They can at least eat the food, but the gold? Thats an obnoxious amount of clutter in their lair. But its a gift and you dont refuse gifts unless you want to be rude. Kinda like moms and the fridge being covered in terrible pictures drawn by their kids. They have to keep them all or else risk upsetting them.

[Peelee]

Knights? Marketing? Pretty sure markets are for peasants.

Compared to dragons, knights are peasants.

[Anonymouswizard]

They dont need all that gold. The problem is, they keep getting worshipped by kobolds who think the only way their "patron" will protect them is if they make frequent offerings. They can at least eat the food, but the gold? Thats an obnoxious amount of clutter in their lair. But its a gift and you dont refuse gifts unless you want to be rude. Kinda like moms and the fridge being covered in terrible pictures drawn by their kids. They have to keep them all or else risk upsetting them.

I've now got this mental image of a dragon kidnapping a princess, and refusing to give her back unless the king accepts enough gold to crash the economy.


And yes, I was very much referencing Shadowrun in my first post.


Another idea, which probably works great for nonsentient dragonkin, they take shiny stuff so their lair is more attractive to mates.

[Kantaki]

I've now got this mental image of a dragon kidnapping a princess, and refusing to give her back unless the king accepts enough gold to crash the economy.

King: "I think I'll send some adventurers instead.":smallamused:
Dragon:"Wait. Did you think this thro-":smallconfused:"-gak":smalleek:
Adventurers (post dragon slaying):"Look at all that gold! Time for a shopping trip!":smallcool:
King:"[REDACTED]!":smallfurious:

[Fyraltari]

Compared to dragons, knights are peasants.

That neatly explains the dragon-slaying mentality.

[pendell]

Why do dragons hoard all their gold? Simple? Because there's a fixed limit to how much they can put in their 401ks every year. Also, gold is untraceable and is a great hedge against inflation.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Traab]

Why do dragons hoard all their gold? Simple? Because there's a fixed limit to how much they can put in their 401ks every year. Also, gold is untraceable and is a great hedge against inflation.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Dragon lord: "Feh! Fiat economies are stupidly simple to profit from! I will just stockpile my gold and silver till something causes the value to spike sufficiently then sell enough to move to that nice volcano lair in hawaii."

[OracleofWuffing]

I remember something from one of the 3.5 books, might have been Draconomicon, that dragons can use their hoard to become a genus loci. So basically it's a powerful spell component. Same reason why a lot of things would hoard gold.
Just piggybacking on Draconomicon 3.5, it's super painful and depressing for a dragon to die of old age, unlike any other creature ever, so they get to choose to either "become a guardian" or "depart," if they don't want to feel their bodies catastrophically collapse all around them. Doing so requires the dragon to consume over 130,000gp in treasure, and most of that needs to have been part of he hoard for at least 200 years.

Obligatory, okay, they could also become a dragolich instead of departing, becoming a guardian, or dying, but I think that option technically applies to anyone at that point.

[MCerberus]

Idea for fluff: The dragons assign memories of people or events on each of their chosen token. It's really hard to keep your memories straight for a mortal, so it becomes a way for an ancient being to create a link to its vast past. Some of the treasure is as of yet unassigned, but it would mean taking from a dragon hoard isn't stealing from a bank, you just stole the memorial to their great-grand-daughter, a young bard that sought them out for advice before tragically dying in order to prevent a great tragedy.

You touch the pile, there's no more talking. There is only rage.

[JNAProductions]

They dont need all that gold. The problem is, they keep getting worshipped by kobolds who think the only way their "patron" will protect them is if they make frequent offerings. They can at least eat the food, but the gold? Thats an obnoxious amount of clutter in their lair. But its a gift and you dont refuse gifts unless you want to be rude. Kinda like moms and the fridge being covered in terrible pictures drawn by their kids. They have to keep them all or else risk upsetting them.


I've now got this mental image of a dragon kidnapping a princess, and refusing to give her back unless the king accepts enough gold to crash the economy.

And yes, I was very much referencing Shadowrun in my first post.

Another idea, which probably works great for nonsentient dragonkin, they take shiny stuff so their lair is more attractive to mates.

Love it. Love this so much.

[Ramza00]

Treasure for dragon is self-important. Treasure is life, treasure is meaning. The bigger the treasure, the more meaning. They don't need treasure for other things - other things exist to acquire more treasure!

Sounds like the Dragon(s) is lonely, wait does this explain all the Half-Dragons, and other Dragonblood races?

-----


So capturing a Princess is like a trophy wife.


Edit I am now imaging a Dragon voiced by Sean Connery kidnapping a women who will keep him company and then extorting the local medieval peasants to support him, so he can support her for he likes it when she is happy. Who needs knights and lords, with the occasional king when one can have Dragons and Peasants as the basis of your medieval economy?

[Imbalance]

So capturing a Princess is like a trophy wife.

Maybe, but the OP specifically asked about gold. Potential princess poaching probably depends on the personal preference of a particular serpent. ...not sure why I did that...

[Eldan]

Maybe, but the OP specifically asked about gold. Potential princess poaching probably depends on the personal preference of a particular serpent. ...not sure why I did that...

Shoulda said python, instead of serpent.

[Arutema]

Shadowrun (https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Dragons), in other words.

I cannot tell you how sad I am that setting does not get more love.

The Shadowrun Returns trilogy on PC did a fairly good job IMO.

And IIRC, Lofwyr puts in a small but important cameo.

[Scarlet Knight]

Sounds like the Dragon(s) is lonely, wait does this explain all the Half-Dragons, and other Dragonblood races?

-----

Edit I am now imaging a Dragon voiced by Sean Connery kidnapping a women who will keep him company ...

"OMG! Becky! You sleep with him?! Why?"
"Well, he sounds like Sean Connery and takes me to this place in Hawaii..."
"That is sooo Christian Grey! Is he hot?"
"Oooh you can say that. Great Wyrm indeed!"

[LibraryOgre]

The Shadowrun Returns trilogy on PC did a fairly good job IMO.

And IIRC, Lofwyr puts in a small but important cameo.

The old Sega Genesis game was the GOAT. I love the SR Returns trilogy, but the Genesis game *chef's kiss*