Armor proficiency bonus feats and retraining rules

[Obscuraphile]

Could a character that gets armor proficiency bonus feats at first level use the retraining rules to turn those feats into other, more build focused feats?

For example a Dex based fighter who doesn’t want heavy or medium armor proficiency trade those out for more combat feats? Assuming of course they have the time, money, and access to an appropriate trainer.

[Kurald Galain]

Could a character that gets armor proficiency bonus feats at first level use the retraining rules to turn those feats into other, more build focused feats?

"If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature."

So, nope. If your class gives you (say) weapon proficiency with one particular weapon, you can retrain that to proficiency with another weapon; but you cannot retrain it to (e.g.) Quicken Spell.

[Obscuraphile]

"If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature."

So, nope. If your class gives you (say) weapon proficiency with one particular weapon, you can retrain that to proficiency with another weapon; but you cannot retrain it to (e.g.) Quicken Spell.

But armor proficiencies are bonus feats not granted by a class feature: Armor Proficiency, Light (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/armor-proficiency-light/)

[Kurald Galain]

But armor proficiencies are bonus feats not granted by a class feature:

No, armor proficiencies are abilities that can be granted by a regular feat or a bonus feat or a class feature or a trait or an item.

Just because you're proficient with heavy armor doesn't mean you have the "Armor Proficiency: Heavy" feat.

[Obscuraphile]

No, armor proficiencies are abilities that can be granted by a regular feat or a bonus feat or a class feature or a trait or an item.

Just because you're proficient with heavy armor doesn't mean you have the "Armor Proficiency: Heavy" feat.

Okay, that’s fair enough, not all characters could trade away their proficiencies in this manner, and some characters gain proficiencies from other sources.

But, the Armor Proficiency, Heavy feat explicitly states: “Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.” So, it would seem to me that at least Fighters and Paladins could do as I suggested. With medium armor proficiency the list would expand to include Barbarians, clerics, druids, and rangers.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, and then we get back to this line: "If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature."

Fighters have the class feature "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" which grants a couple feats. You may replace those feats with any other feats that could have been picked for that class feature.

[Obscuraphile]

Yes, and then we get back to this line: "If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature."

Fighters have the class feature "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" which grants a couple feats. You may replace those feats with any other feats that could have been picked for that class feature.

Hmm, I guess I never realized that proficiencies were not their own category of thing but fell under class features. Welp, back to the drawing board.

Does pathfinder have a chaos shuffle?

[Kurald Galain]

Welp, back to the drawing board.

Do you have a specific goal in mind? Because if you want lots of bonus feats and/or flex feats and/or skipping prerequisites, there's ways to do that.

[FauxKnee]

It's cheesy, expensive, and frowned upon at most tables, but you can always use the dark chaos shuffle to turn those unnecessary proficiency feats into useful feats. See the spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos from the Fiendish Codex I.