Rogue/barbarian help

[Khrysaes]

Hello, im going to play in a game next sunday. Im thinking the new wildhunt shifter from multiverse, combining rogue and barb for reckless attack with no disadvantage. But im not sure which subclasses.

Im think ancestral guardian / swashbuckler
Bear totem / assassin, or some combination there of.

[strangebloke]

This is a really fun combo!

Swashbuckler is imo really good because its probably the best nonmagical rogue subclass. Rakish audacity is basically useless here - you were going to have advantage anyway - but fancy footwork and the +CHA to initiative are both very solid bonuses that will make you fast and powerful.

Barbarians are a bit more open-ended. Zealot is the best option overall by a pretty wide margin. Extra damage, saves protection, and more. Ancestral guardian lets you heavily hamstring a boss, and in combination with fancy footwork in particular is really fun.

Totem is interesting. Bear is imo fixating a bit too much on HP damage - you will eventually have uncanny dodge on top of normal rage resistance - but I'll give special mention to elk, which will turn you into the fastest man alive.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

My only experience with a character like this I ended up only with one rogue level. I found that the Totem Eagle features gave enough scout/ skirmish features that Rogue 2 wouldn't have given much. T. Eagle 3 gives disadvantage on OAs and the ability to BA Dash, and T. Eagle 6 gives 1 mile of vision and no disadvantage to perception in dim light. That plus the expertise and sneak attack from Rogue 1 worked well.

That said, I think we only played to level 8, so it made sense not to split levels too much. I'm sure if you want to go higher and get both subclasses there are good complimentarly abilities available.

[Khrysaes]

Yeah. My thought was ancestral 5 or 6 and swashbuckler 8+. Hit and run. Punished for attacking allies.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yeah. My thought was ancestral 5 or 6 and swashbuckler 8+. Hit and run. Punished for attacking allies.

Makes sense. I'm trying to figure out if ancestral 6 is worth it. The 4th rage/ day is going to be table dependent, and Spirit Shield is in competition with Uncanny Dodge... though maybe it isn't. If the baddies can't catch you and end up attacking your allies, then you've got Spirit Shield, and if they go after you Uncanny Dodge works.
I'm also wondering is whether swashbuckler 3/ ancestral X is viable. Uncanny Dodge, for example, isn't worth as much on you as it would be on a full Rogue. You've got rage damage reduction already, more hp, and Spirit Shield.

[RogueJK]

Yeah. My thought was ancestral 5 or 6 and swashbuckler 8+. Hit and run. Punished for attacking allies.

A good combo. Also works with any other Rogue subclass, if you take the Mobile Feat (which also boosts your speed to help you with getting further away from the enemy you tagged with Ancestral Protectors), or if you just accept that you're going to be spending your Bonus Action on Cunning Action Disengaging most turns.


Soul Knife is also great combination with Barbarian.

1) It gets you free TWF for an additional full attack per turn to add your STRMOD and Rage damage bonus. (And a third chance to land a Sneak Attack if your first two miss.) It can also helps make up for the delay to your Extra Attack from putting off your higher your Barbarian levels by taking Rogue levels early on.

2) It gives you a handy ranged option with thrown Psychic Blades, for turns when you can't quite reach an enemy. Keep in mind that Rage ends if you don't take damage or made an attack in a turn. With a melee Barbarian, this can leave you in situations where you can't quite make it to another enemy in a turn, and your Rage involuntarily ends. With a thrown Psychic Blade, as long as you can get to within 60' of an enemy, you can keep the Rage going, without having to do stuff like dropping a melee weapon in order to pull out a ranged/thrown weapon.

3) Psi-Bolstered Knack comes in handy when you're Grappling/Shoving, which is something Rogue/Barbarians excel at. Even with a high STR, Athletics Expertise, and Advantage on STR checks while raging, there will be times when an enemy wins the contested check. With Psi-Bolstered Knack, if you happen to fail the occasional contested Grapple/Shove check, you get a bonus Psionic Energy dice to potentially turn that failure into a success. Plus you'll frequently have a free hand available for Grappling, since you only manifest your Psychic Blades when you attack with them, rather than having to juggle weapons.


Regardless of Barbarian subclass, you're going to want to stop at 5 or 6 levels and focus on more Rogue from there. You get much more out of additional Rogue levels than you do out of additional Barbarian levels.

For Barbarian subclass, I'd do either Bear Totem to 5 if you want to be more of a damage sponge, Ancestral Guardian to 6 if you want to be an effective Tank/Kiter/Damage Mitigater for the party, or Wolf Totem to 5 if the party contains another melee buddy who really benefits from frequent Advantage, such as an Elven Accuracy Hexblade/Paladin fishing for Critical Smites, or a Great Weapon Master.

For a Soul Knife/Barbarian multiclass, I'd consider doing something like Rogue 1 -> Barbarian 1 -> Rogue 4 -> Barbarian 5 or 6 -> Rogue X. This gets you your TWF attack and initial Soul Knife abilities online at Level 4, your Barbarian subclass abilities online at Level 7, and Extra Attack for up to 3 attacks in a turn online at Level 9. Just use a STR-based Rapier until you hit Rogue 3. Or, if it turns out that you're the party's primary (or only) frontliner, then start with Barbarian 5 or 6 -> Rogue X, to get that Bear Totem Damage Resistance or Ancestral Protectors online ASAP.

For a Swashbuckler/Ancestral Guardians multiclass, I'd do something more like Barbarian 3 -> Rogue 3 -> Barbarian 6 -> Rogue X. You're delaying your first ASI to Level 7 and second ASI to Level 10, but getting both your subclasses' abilities online ASAP, and you can start the kiting combo as early as Level 5 (Barb3/Rogue2) thanks to Cunning Action Disengage.

[Kane0]

Hello, im going to play in a game next sunday. Im thinking the new wildhunt shifter from multiverse, combining rogue and barb for reckless attack with no disadvantage. But im not sure which subclasses.

Im think ancestral guardian / swashbuckler
Bear totem / assassin, or some combination there of.

What level? What's the rest of your party look like?

I'm a fan of Beast Barb + Rogue so you can have a bite or tail to attack with your hands full from grappling.

[prototype00]

Beast Barb 6/ Soul Knife X is a favored multiclass these days for its ability to do 4 attacks, 2 of which have the chance to proc Sneak Attack (Claw, Claw, Psychic Blade, Psychic Blade).

[Frogreaver]

There’s 3 primary features rogues add.

Expertise athletics (grappling)

Cunning action disengage and dash (shores up melee barbarians biggest weakness)

Sneak attack (helps with OA’s - swashbuckler helps the most here)

I’d suggest going for barbarian 3 / swashbuckler 3.

I’d probably go more rogue early…. Something like barbarian 1 or 2 rogues 3.

By level 6 you should be good to decide if you want more rogue or more barbarian based on your campaign.

*barbarian subclass can be whatever you like.

[strangebloke]

The other chief benefit of multiclassing to rogue is, you get to stop taking barbarian levels:smalltongue:

Did you know that sneak attack damage progression actually outpaces brutal critical scaling? Amazing.

[RogueJK]

The other chief benefit of multiclassing to rogue is, you get to stop taking barbarian levels:smalltongue:


Yep... There's not much there for a Barbarian/Rogue past Barbarian 6ish, when compared to the stuff you gain from more Rogue levels.

Barbarian 1, 3, 5, or 6 seems to be the natural stopping points, depending on exactly what you're wanting out of the Barbarian levels on a Rogue.

[Khrysaes]

I was planning barbarian 5 or 6. Depending on subclass.

Tough to decide between swashbuckler or soulknife

Ancestral guardian or bear.

The aforementioned fancy footwork+Ancestral protectors seems like fun.

Bear is great personally defensively.

I also realized that the psychoc blade attack can trigger the ancestral protectors. And mobile replicates fancy footwork. So i will probably do ancestral guardian/soulknife.

[RogueJK]

I also realized that the psychoc blade attack can trigger the ancestral protectors. So i will probably do ancestral guardian/soulknife.

Yep. You're just giving up the +2 Rage Damage Bonus, which only applies to melee attacks, not thrown attacks.

So you can tank/kite from up to 60' away with thrown Psychic Blades, or tank/kite in melee with either Cunning Action Disengage or the Mobile feat + Cunning Action Dash.

[ender241]

Yep. You're just giving up the +2 Rage Damage Bonus, which only applies to melee attacks, not thrown attacks.

So you can tank/kite from up to 60' away with thrown Psychic Blades, or tank/kite in melee with either Cunning Action Disengage or the Mobile feat + Cunning Action Dash.

Worth noting that Reckless Attack also only works with melee attacks, so you'll need to rely on other means to proc sneak attack in that case.

[Corran]

Barbarian 1, 3, 5, or 6 seems to be the natural stopping points, depending on exactly what you're wanting out of the Barbarian levels on a Rogue.
Played a barbarian once, levels 3 to 6. I remember wanting to get to level 7 to get feral instinct, cause it sucked getting damaged before I had the opportunity to activate rage (being a bear totem made this worse). Though to be fair this DM used to ambush the group often (probably with good reason), so I may be somewhat biased here.

@OP: A thief could be nice. With expertise and/or advantage on strength/ athletics checks and with a good strength score, you could use fast hands to play with everything in the environment. Second story work could help with combining grappling and hit and run sometimes (ie grapple someone and run away to kill them away from their friends; probably not the most effective methoed for a pc, but it sounds like fun if attempting it every once in a while, and between expertise, rage, cunning action, fast movement, and sometimes second story work for climbing faster and fast hands for throwing the piano at your pursuers as they are climbing the stairs, well it could be funny to try - eagle totem might be worth looking since it provides some extra movement of sorts IIRC).).

[Khrysaes]

Worth noting that Reckless Attack also only works with melee attacks, so you'll need to rely on other means to proc sneak attack in that case.

Youre right. I can at least still make attacks in melee. It will be nice to have the ranged option to trigger ancestral protectors though

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The other chief benefit of multiclassing to rogue is, you get to stop taking barbarian levels:smalltongue:

Did you know that sneak attack damage progression actually outpaces brutal critical scaling? Amazing.

I guess I'll be the first to say it. At some point, probably Swashbuckler 3/ Barb 5/6, early fighter levels start to look good too.

[RogueJK]

I guess I'll be the first to say it. At some point, probably Swashbuckler 3/ Barb 5/6, early fighter levels start to look good too.

It'd be tough to convince me that Fighter levels give you more than additional Rogue levels, in general. The Rogue mid-levels get you some very handy abilities, on top of additional Sneak Attack dice.

Fighter 1 for a Fighting Style and minor Second Wind healing vs. your 2nd ASI at Rogue 4.
Fighter 2 for Action Surge vs. Uncanny Dodge and +1d6 Sneak Attack at Rogue 5.
Fighter 3 for Subclass ability (probably Battlemaster) vs. more Expertise at Rogue 6.
Fighter 4 for finally your 2nd ASI at Character Level 13 vs. Evasion and +1d6 Sneak Attack at Rogue 7.

Not to mention being closer to gaining the even handier higher level Rogue stuff... Panache, Reliable Talent, bonus ASI, Blindsense, even more Sneak Attack damage, etc.

Action Surge, which is typically a big draw for the early Fighter levels, doesn't benefit this Rogue/Barbarian as much, compared to something like casting an additional spell in a turn or doubling the number of GWM/SS attacks in a turn. You can still only Sneak Attack once per turn, or apply Ancestral Guardians to one enemy per turn, regardless of your number of attacks, and your non-Sneak Attack attacks won't be doing all that much damage by themselves, so having a couple more on the occasional turn wouldn't be that impactful. Even if you were to use it to Ready an Attack for the enemy's turn, and use that to try for one extra off-turn Sneak Attack per Short Rest, you're -1d6 behind in Sneak Attack damage due to the 2 Fighter levels, so the added damage to every Sneak Attack from +2 Rogue levels will outdamage those couple of off-turn Sneak Attacks over the course of the adventuring day. Or I guess it could be situationally useful to do stuff like Quad Move in a turn during a chase (Move + Dash Action + Action Surge Dash + Cunning Action Dash), combined with your boosted Barbarian movement rate.

Similarly, going to Battlemaster 3-5 can be a useful option for a typical Rogue, thanks to Maneuvers like Brace/Riposte for off-turn Sneak Attacks and Trip to generate Advantage, plus Extra Attack for a second shot at landing a Sneak Attack each turn. But in this build, you've already gained Extra Attack. And you've already significantly watered down your Rogue levels with 5-6 levels of Barbarian. Much like Action Surge, those handful of additional off-turn Sneak Attacks from Maneuvers won't make up for your -1d6/-2d6 Sneak Attack dice on every turn. And you don't really need additional ways to generate Advantage here, since you can Reckless Attack for Advantage without penalty while Shifted, in addition to all the usual ways for a Swashbuckler Rogue to trigger Sneak Attack.