deleted

[wefoij123]

Don't need this answered anymore so deleted.

[redking]

Correct. Simulacrums are great. However, there is an XP cost and any sane DM will make sure that the XP costs are enforced. So the reason that there isn't mass production of simulacrums is that the creator is using his very life force (or mana, quintessence, mojo or however you define XP in your campaign) to create the simulacrums, thus weakening the creator personally.

I homebrewed a simulacrum creator prestige class (https://1drv.ms/b/s!At1QqAc0yBQTgYZC-6phkzypFR_KtQ?e=5yXw1w), following on with the assumptions you make in your post.

[redking]

I'm a sane DM and I don't mind players cheating the xp cost. If we're house ruling then I'd rather put on a hd limit like animate dead or a max 1 minion count rather than do something obnoxious like forcing an xp cost when the player built their characters to specifically avoid the xp cost, but this topic isn't about house ruling simulacrum, it's about why in-universe red wizards don't have armies of simulacra at their disposal.

It's all about versimilitude. If the setting is not as you say it should be due to the rules, then the setting is in contradiction. For me, I would slightly alter the rules to fit the actual situation in the setting instead of coming up with lame reasons why Red Wizards don't have armies of simulacrums even though they could.

An HD limit is one option, of course. It would probably prevent your play slowing down to a crawl as well.

One other thing - don't let your PCs get away with eschewing components when it comes to simulacrums. Make sure they have the parts of the creatures they want to copy.

[Biggus]

I'm a sane DM and I don't mind players cheating the xp cost. If we're house ruling then I'd rather put on a hd limit like animate dead or a max 1 minion count rather than do something obnoxious like forcing an xp cost when the player built their characters to specifically avoid the xp cost, but this topic isn't about house ruling simulacrum, it's about why in-universe red wizards don't have armies of simulacra at their disposal.

edit: Let me change the title so it's more clear what I'm asking.

The in-universe reason is the XP cost. If you're choosing to let characters ignore that cost, you've changed the assumptions the universe works on, and you'll need to come up with a reason of your own.

If you look at the stat blocks of NPCs, very few of them are anywhere near optimised; most of them are distinctly un-optimized in fact. So something like getting round XP costs would be a secret known to very few if any.

[Crake]

Considering that mirror mephits are widely used in forgotten realms, and considering that in the mirror mephit's own monster entry they explicitly create a simulacrum of a player character, what is the in-lore reason why every red wizard doesn't have an army of simulacra of themselves or other monsters?

I ask because I allow players to use mirror mephits but I put on a limit of 1 simulacra max per character without in-lore justification. And I guess I'm looking for an in-lore justification.

The in lore justification is becuase the simulacrum created by the mirror mephit is under the control of that mirror mephit. Do you want a point of failure outside of your control? All it would take is for someone else to planar bind your mephit, or kill it, for all the simulacra to go rogue.

[GeoffWatson]

Since when are Mirror Mephits common?

The only time I've heard of them is in these bull**** powergamer discussions.

[Troacctid]

1. Are they common, though? I'd challenge you to name even one Red Wizard who, in a canon source, uses a mirror mephit servant. I've never heard of this supposedly common practice.
2. Paying a mirror mephit to make a simulacrum subcontractor is more difficult and less efficient than making your own undead minions that don't have to go through fickle middlemen.
3. Mirror mephits are annoying. Would you want to spend 12 hours hanging out with one?

[redking]

Mirror mephits are a controversial bugbear. I would give simulacrums created by mirror mephits a duration limited in hours/CL.

[Tzardok]

Snip.

Where are those quotes from?

[awa]

Expedition to the Demonweb pitts. The book where mirror mephits debuted from.

Are their any references to these things except in that one book?
Cause it sounds like one person designed a poorly thought out monster with fairly extreme implications for the setting and then every one else ignored them completely.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho the reason is simple. Because if you start to think how the world would look like when high lvl casters would actually use their world changing powers, you 'll end up in the Tippyverse (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy).

And while this (Tippyverse) can be fun at first, most people abound that idea really fast because it is to plot limiting. All low lvl characters are irrelevant. There are enough magic tools that can solve most problems. And for those bigger problems left, there are high lvl casters taking care of the important stuff in the world. Who needs low lvl heroes in a world like this? It's not fun.

So, stop asking why NPCs don't make use of the full extend of their power.
"What is the high lvl caster (that sold you a 9th lvl scroll) actually doing now while his home town gets raided?"

[redking]

Are their any references to these things except in that one book?
Cause it sounds like one person designed a poorly thought out monster with fairly extreme implications for the setting and then every one else ignored them completely.

This. Not only that, another published module, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, makes it clear that even using magical items like scrolls, you cannot escape the need for a piece of the creature to duplicate.

Anyway, the mirror mephit exploit would have setting warping results if it were really possible. If it's not happening in the setting, it isn't possible.

[redking]

Material components of creatures are trivially obtained via the spell summon component. So you are trying to push a non-issue as RAW.
Trying to house rule xp components into simulacra SLAs will only result in players power gaming and choosing invincible monsters instead of monsters they like.
So your solutions aren't really solutions.


Not my house rule. Items to do require material components, yet the scroll of simulacrum in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk did require a material component.

The solution for Mirror Mephits is to simply change the way their simulacrums work. Instead of being permanent, the simulacrums are conjured forth from the plane of mirrors for 1 hour per caster level (thus, for eight hours). That's how we can see that Mirror Mephits can bring these creatures into being, and every man and his dog isn't a simulacrum.

[redking]

Simulacrums are no problem if you respect the XP costs and need for real material components. I echo the sentiments of this poster.


Sorry but any wizard who makes this argument at one of my tables about things like this or claiming you can have a piece of a god for ice assassin from your spell component pouch cause it technically has no gold piece value gets thrown out the window. I've literally never met any player in real life who has tried this inanity and have only ever heard anyone try to make this argument here.

Any NPCs with lots of simulacrums are following the Rule of Cool and have no impact on gameplay of PCs or campaign warping.

[Akal Saris]

One lore reason might be that simulacrums/clones are commonly associated with members of the Zhentarim, like Manshoon, so the Red Wizards may disdain using them for anything other than spying, especially considering the chaos that came from Manshoon's awakening of a dozen clones wrought.

Besides that, if I put myself in the position of a typical arrogant red wizard, there's not many aspects where I would "want" simulacrums:

1) Assuming that you are the most powerful creature that you know and would duplicate, it's immensely creepy to have clones of yourself walking around your home all the time. So I don't want them near me or confusing my house guests and servants. If you duplicate a more powerful creature, then you either need to get their permission or risk creating an enemy. This isn't a firm "no" but it all seems like a big hassle to me as a proud red wizard.
2) If it's a simulcrum of myself, then I don't want the simulacrum carrying out a mission for me to implicate me in a crime or interfere with another red wizard and get me involved in their scheme, so I don't want to send them on missions on their own.
3) Since they are expensive to repair and can never gain in power, I'd be really reluctant to give them much equipment that I could instead give to trusted lieutenants.
4) The XP cost and time (12 hours! It only takes me 6 seconds to animate the dead, and it doesn't potentially put me down a level from my peers!) would be notable factors. Why go through the effort when level 8 apprentices will come to me for free and are just as disposable?
5) Mirror mephits avoid the problem in #4, but then the simulcrum is under their control, and they seem incredibly fickle ("They had no interest in politics or following a moral code: instead, they acted without caring for the future"). So I would be hugely reluctant to trust my mephit familiar (or worse, a planar bound mephit) with one or more copies of any powerful entities, because at any point the mephit might randomly decide to use those copies for its own amusement and wreck my carefully laid plans.

None of these would "stop" a red wizard from trying to create a scheme of mirror mephit controlled simulcra armies, but maybe they can be reasons why they aren't more commonly seen in everyday use. However, perhaps some red wizards have caught onto the possibilities, and have secret warehouses of simulcra forces built by their mirror mephit, which they might release in a dire emergency with the understanding that the mephit can only be trusted to keep them under control for a short time.

[Troacctid]

"In Faerun, mirror mephits are commonly used as spies by demons allied with the Zhentarim. The Red Wizards of Thay use them in a similar manner, fitting helms, staffs, and other items with bits of mirror to allow mirror mephits to watch their owners."

From that quote I'd say that any canon Red Wizard who has any bit of mirror on his or her person is the owner of at least one mirror mephit.
Okay, but can you name a specific Red Wizard who has canonically done so?

[Seward]

3. Mirror mephits are annoying. Would you want to spend 12 hours hanging out with one?

*laugh*

Also

4. Easily removed with Dismissal type spells if they prove too useful, wasting your planar binding costs.


Played various versions of D&D since late 1970s and the planar binding line of spells I've seen actually used maybe twice, both times using the 3.5 "Planar Ally" spells and coughing up the cash to let them fight in a single day's battle where we knew the opposition would be insane and whole party chipped in to help pay for it AND it was the sort of thing the critter being summoned would be onboard with doing, morally.

I guess around where I played, binding always seemed too likely to blow up in your face, since most of the critters you bind are both displeased with you for binding them and very, very smart. Although there was this Fantasy Hero demon "binder" who would summon things way too powerful to control. His schtick was to increase range on the spell, so he'd summon the thing with his enemies between him and the demon, then basically run away, while the demon obliterated whatever was between him and his impudent summoner. His secondary schtick was being really good at running away until the duration of the summon spell ran out, which often lead to the summoned demon venting frustration on whatever it could reach. He used those spells the way a druid might use "control weather" to destroy a settlement, more of a battlefield tactic than a "keep 4 adventurers from killing me" tactic. I can't remember if he summoned the same (extremely pissed) demon every time or spread it around and hoped that it would be unlikely any particular demon could get to him before they got distracted by some other indignity.

I get the feeling in most canon that your average spellcaster eschews the planar binding line of spells because they prefer more reliable, if less powerful choices. Those who do not tend to be the kinds of characters that drive large scale plots and are playing for stakes that make the risk seem reasonable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Because NPCs don't have access to the books or internet forums to debate builds and optimization tricks.
They have to figure things out themselves and most of them hate sharing knowledge. Especially the evil ones.

[icefractal]

Even with the full cost, Simulacrum is quite good. Maybe not for retired/relaxed casters who don't have much XP coming in, but compared to other uses of XP like crafting items, more casters should be using them.

Like, a Simulacrum of a 20th level character (so 10th level) costs 1000 gp and 1000 xp. The gold cost is peanuts, but the XP cost is comparable to making a 25k gp item, such as a +5 armor or a bit less than a +3 weapon. If you actually care about the gold cost, and assume a 1:5 xp/gp rate as usually listed, the total is comparable to a 5000 gp item!

Simulacra are pretty obviously a better use of XP (in most situations) once you can afford them. Really, items that require a caster capable of Simulacrum should probably be in short supply. But for that matter, any items that require a double-digit-level caster to create should be in short supply. The concept that a 20th level Wizard is sitting around making Scrolls of Wish so that other people can achieve NI power, instead of simply achieving that power themselves, is pretty dumb.

And don't get me started on "Spellcasting Services". Yeah, I'm real sure that a caster capable of conquering most kingdoms single-handed is going to be eager to provide their strongest spells for a cost that won't even pay for a single Headband of Int +2. :smallannoyed:

Bottom line - if you want a world that makes sense, make high-level people rare, and don't assume that they're available to buy things from or hire. Once the PCs can do it themselves? Then they're in the big-boys club and being a potentially-world-changing force is appropriate.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even with the full cost, Simulacrum is quite good. Maybe not for retired/relaxed casters who don't have much XP coming in, but compared to other uses of XP like crafting items, more casters should be using them.

Like, a Simulacrum of a 20th level character (so 10th level) costs 1000 gp and 1000 xp. The gold cost is peanuts, but the XP cost is comparable to making a 25k gp item, such as a +5 armor or a bit less than a +3 weapon. If you actually care about the gold cost, and assume a 1:5 xp/gp rate as usually listed, the total is comparable to a 5000 gp item!

Simulacra are pretty obviously a better use of XP (in most situations) once you can afford them. Really, items that require a caster capable of Simulacrum should probably be in short supply. But for that matter, any items that require a double-digit-level caster to create should be in short supply. The concept that a 20th level Wizard is sitting around making Scrolls of Wish so that other people can achieve NI power, instead of simply achieving that power themselves, is pretty dumb.


Simulacra don't compete with magic items though. They compete with other minionmancy options.
And even assuming that you can easily get your hands on parts of a 20th level character (and one with useful abilities no less) it's still spending 1000xp and 1000gp on a 10HD minion - which isn't very useful when you're at least level 14 yourself and also available much cheaper.

1000xp invested in magic items are also likely much more useful than a 10HD minion unless you go full meta cheese and pick something most people never even hear of, let alone encounter.

[Seward]

Simulacra don't compete with magic items though. They compete with other minionmancy options.

Yeah. Like the Leadership feat that at L20 can get you a L17 minion with your choice of 9th level wizard, cleric or druid casting.

[redking]

If Mirror Mephits could do what is claimed, the campaign setting would be full of simulacrums. All the rationalization for why the campaign setting is not full of simulacrums is just an excuse to keep the Mirror Mephits intact so they can be used for PC abuse while keeping the same out of the hands of NPCs.

Saying that no one in the campaign setting had thought of abusing the powers of Mirror Mephits is an insult to my intelligence and not to mention that of the creatures in the campaign setting, where Intelligence scores can top 20, which is the equivalent of over 200 IQ points! These creatures have thought of exploits that you'd never even be able to construct.

The Mirror Mephit is a case of terrible design and were a mistake. They damage the versimilitude of the entire campaign setting. So the option for a sane DM is simple. Fix the broken Mirror Mephit by giving their simulacrums an 8 hour duration. Even with their limitation, it still makes the Mirror Mephit an interesting familiar or planar bind.

In relation to this error, if WotC was still doing customer service for 3.5e we know what their answer would in be in response to queries about the Mirror Mephit. That WotC, in this case, would revise the Mirror Mephit is not even in question. Make a DC 100 roll for insanity if you disagree.

[GeoffWatson]

It looks like most Mirror Mephits work for Graz'zt. Would you trust a likely demonic spy as the centrepoint of your powerbase? Who knows what orders it gives while you aren't watching?